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The scary stats about indie developer.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by toto2003, May 29, 2017.

  1. aer0ace

    aer0ace

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    I often see reddit posts that read "First time developing a game, years in development, flopped". Poncho, Brigador, anyone else?
     
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  2. Martin_H

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    You could try to become bitter and cynical. It does wonders against unjustified self-confidence.
    I'm fairly certain the game I'm working on has no "hit potential", because it's a niche theme with an unusual control-scheme. I can be happy enough if there even is some kind of audience for it at all.


    Brigador is very close to the game I originally wanted to make years ago. It fills a niche which has been under-served for a long time. The problem is it took way too long to make and partway through development they must have realized they won't break even. And ehrn you've put years into something that won't pay off I can understand when for personal reasons you at least want it to be good enough to be personally proud of it.


    Iirc it was at the very least inspired by a mod for an Unreal Engine game. Maybe Unreal Tournament. Or am I confusing that with Killing Floor?
     
  3. zombiegorilla

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    Huh? Half-life wasn't a mod.
     
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  4. dogzerx2

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    Well,surely some of them think that way, but 'everyone' is an overstatement.

    What I'm sure everyone is guilty of, when spending so much time in a game, is toying with the idea of accomplishing some kind of economic success, being at least loosely related to the amount of work and dedication being invested.

    That's where we err, to base an entire project of year(s) on the foundation that game dev belongs to the realm of incentives we've been taught to live in! The realm in which we tend to receive a reward, payment, that's correlated with how much sweat tears and blood we've spent doing something.
    But that's not how it works at all. There's no "fair" judge running things here, no boss or teacher, taking you into consideration, paying you overtime, giving you A for effort ... nope sir'e. And this is not to say that the world's fair or unfair, it simply means that what we have is a whole new set of rules here, and we ought to learn them or give up. So first thing in the book, is to forget everything you know, and start anew.

    So, everything points out at doing things in a progression, learn from mistakes from smaller games, and build up your knowledge before moving into something mildly bigger.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2017
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  5. RichardKain

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    The original version of the Half Life Engine was actually a licensed modification of the Quake 2 engine. A HEAVILY modified version, granted. But it still had its base in ID's Quake 2 tech. In a manner of speaking, you could kind of call it a mod.
     
  6. Carwashh

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    HL1 used the Quake engine, a heavily modified version of the Q1 engine, yes. It is not a mod, in the traditional (and correct) meaning of "mod" when relating to games.
     
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  7. zombiegorilla

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    That would be like saying BioShock was an Unreal mod or that FIFA 17 is a Battlefield mod.
     
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  8. dogzerx2

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    How is FIFA 17 not a Battlefield mod? It has everything from battlefield, except players are controlled in 3rd person, and ... the ai was modified, to play soccer. Boom. Best Battlefield mod ever.
     
  9. aer0ace

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    Heh. Was waiting for someone to call me out. Sure, Half Life is more a Total Conversion, so I'll accept "kind of a mod" if you will.
     
  10. RichardKain

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    Yes, mods are usually not officially supported in any way. Half-Life's engine was based on ID-tech, but it was officially licensed, they paid for it and everything. So technically, not a mod.

    One big problem with current indie development is that too many indie developers think of their projects in a more traditional game sense. In this day and age, a moderate game project will take you a year to two years to bring to a complete state. But you can't develop it, and then sell it as a single unit. You can't. It's not financially feasible any more. At the bare minimum, you're talking about accruing nothing but costs for a year and change, and then hanging the fate of your company on uncertain sales. That's a huge gap of time where everything is an expense, and you have no revenue coming in. Is it any wonder so many indie game developers fail, with risks like that?

    A more sustainable business model would be to get a MVP (minimum viable product) out inside of two or three months, and then Early-Access that project for the for-seeable future. Yes, it detracts from potential surprises for the players. But it also allows for active feedback with the players, the establishment of a player community, and it brings revenue in while development is taking place. While some developers go out of their way to abuse Early-Access for short-term trickery, when properly utilized such a system is a boon to developers who treat it properly.

    Get something out that people can poke at quickly, and worry about refining it as it's being played. Swallow your pride and release an unfinished game, your wallet will thank you.
     
  11. Murgilod

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    It's not a mod any more than the games we make here are "Unity mods"
     
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  12. Carwashh

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    Nope, HL is not a total conversion or a mod. It is a game using the same engine as another game.
     
  13. aer0ace

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    All right. Well, I tried. Dropping the train back on the rails.
     
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  14. N1warhead

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    I simply think a lot of games isn't the fact that the games suck (Except for the ones who make clone after clone of already new games).

    But the ones who actually put forth the effort to make something completely original (Well at least not a direct clone).
    But I think the reason so many games fail is simply because they don't have a massive marketing budget.
    Nobody will get your game if they don't know about it, unless you're just lucky. It's simply that simple.

    So I don't really pay much attention to the statistics of failure/success, because it's simply a logistical problem, I mean obviously if your game sucks, there's nothing that will fix that first impression people had. But if you made at least a decent game, and had a nice hefty marketing budget then I'm 95% sure that the 95% failure statistic won't matter.

    Yeah Indies are broke, but there's not even an excuse for getting a 50 grand marketing budget. Either you can save it, or do like a lot of start ups do, talk to 100-200 investors and get the money... You'll hear so many "No's" before you get that yes, and if your game actually shows promise and not a clone, then you're already one step ahead of the game and on the right track.

    Aside from the logistical standpoint, it's simply about learning the market and catching trends and hitting that niche right at the right moment.

    I can already tell I'd be an A**hole boss, because I won't take excuses and I won't listen to people who don't show initiative. I will only work with A Players, no B or C Players.. Because lets face it, if your game shows even the slightest potential and you have a solid pitch planned, there's a 100% chance you WILL find an investor, but you'll always hear more "No's" than yeses, you can't have the mindset of "no" means "no". No should mean Maybe and then Yes.
     
  15. Kiwasi

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    Don't forget the entire tower defence genre. From memory that came out of custom Warcraft 3 maps.
     
  16. angrypenguin

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    Yes, there have been tons of successes from "clones" and such... but they're still an extreme minority amongst their kind. How many Diablo clones are there in total? How many of those are genuinely successful? How many are there that we don't know about because they weren't even finished? If you want a good picture of how things are you have to look at all games (or movies or books or songs...) rather than just successful ones.

    I think it's a great idea to treat it as a business if income is important, and if we want to make bigger and better games that will become a necessity at some point. However, I don't believe that it's an "or" thing. Something can be both your business and your passion. And, when it comes to creative fields, I think it really helps for something to be both rather than one or the other.
     
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  17. Kiwasi

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    You know, that raises an interesting point. Clones do not have to be soulless.

    Probably the most successful Diablo clone running around at the moment is Path of Exile. The game plays virtually identical to Diablo 2. Almost all of the core systems are the same. There are a few minor tweaks, but its essentially a clone.

    And yet the game is far from soulless.
     
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  18. angrypenguin

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    Agreed, they don't have to be soulless at all. Heck, plenty of super successful games can be seen as clones - Uncharted, Call of Duty, Candy Crush...
     
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  19. nhold

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    You can't say that a whole genre means cloning a game. Most ARPGs basically have the same core systems, game-play and controls.

    Those aren't clones of anything. To clone a game would be to re-create to the exact specifications.
     
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  20. angrypenguin

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    Well then nothing is an actual clone.
     
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  21. Murgilod

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    The only difference between a clone and a member of a genre is that the clone is typically not well received, so it gets stuck with the "clone" label. It's a completely meaningless term.
     
  22. neginfinity

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    In a manner, though. I think they were one of the first games who introduced Skeletal Animation, and that wasn't the part of original quake functionality.
    It wasn't the same engine, though, because modifications were severe. Since they're used Q1, and not Q2, they had to write or re-write at least half of it.
     
  23. ShilohGames

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    Actually, the video at the beginning of the thread said a lot of indies fail because of a lack of marketing but then the video went on to explain ways indies can market their games without a massive marketing budget.
     
  24. angrypenguin

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    Yeah, I don't think that complaining or worrying about "marketing budget" is useful on a small-team scale. One consideration is that there are quite a few games which have done well despite not having a large marketing budget. Another consideration is that even if you have a large budget that doesn't ensure that your marketing will be effective.

    In short, just throwing money at a problem doesn't make it go away. Having money available certainly helps if you've figured out how to reach people and there are things to extend or amplify that reach which cost money. But if you don't know how to reach people, or you're reaching the wrong people, or you're sending the wrong message... spending more money doing ineffective things isn't going to suddenly make them effective.

    On the flip side, if you start small with little or no budget but manage to do effective things, that'll hopefully get some money in the door, and you can invest some of that into amplifying your marketing...
     
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  25. Aiursrage2k

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    Well actually it started off in Starcraft 1 use map settings map. Dota came from Starcraft map as well. Clash royale came from castle fight a Warcraft map. I'm surprised we haven't seen a zone control game yet
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2017
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  26. Aiursrage2k

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    You need to get to the point where you can make a game faster at a higher level of quality and polish and then work on the next one without caring. Look at binding of issac team meat made it in three months

    For example some of the mobile games I made as a rookie took me months but now I could do them in weeks
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2017
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  27. imaginaryhuman

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    I think part of the failure of indie games is because the marketplaces like iOs app store give the impression that all you have to do is make the game and upload it and the market will take care of raking in the money for you. That pretty much relies on word of mouth and a bunch of luck and maybe some potential to be featured if you get noticed or screened for certain criteria Apple likes. But then most games just sit there in the store, like on some remote shelf in the dusty back end of a warehouse with very little visitation and being barely noticed. And then the developers will just sit there wondering what went wrong. "You too can make a game" turns into .... "I made a game, but...."
     
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  28. Moonjump

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    It is certainly not a meaningless term because such issues can end up in court. A common interpretation that I agree with asks: Is it inspired by? Or is it a copy? The question is how different does it have to be.

    Forsaken (Acclaim, 1998) was the first game I worked on. Some reviews considered it a Descent clone, but it wasn't at all. They belonged to the same small sub-genre of flying FPS, so obviously there were similarities. But the art style and many gameplay features were different.

    Most games take elements of others. How you mix inspirations can make the difference between something fresh and a clone. The result is usually somewhere in-between.

    Being a clone is a result of intent as much as anything. That can apply from an art asset to a whole game. Judging the intent from viewing the result is not so clear cut.
     
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  29. ShilohGames

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    I was a massive fan of Descent 1 and 2. I played Forsaken when it came out, because I was excited that it might be a good clone of Decent. However, (like you said) Forsaken was not like Decent. It felt completely different. I personally did not enjoy playing Forsaken. With Decent, there were flying enemies in the middle of rooms and hallways. With Forsaken, a lot of the enemies were tanks and turrets driving on the ground/walls.

    You mentioned you work on Forsaken. What did you do on that game?
     
  30. Deleted User

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    I have some insight to offer...

    I think the reason the game dev scene has a bunch of competition is the ubiquity of game dev. Games like Unity have made game dev easy, that is their business model. This is nothing new. What I'm going to say about that which you may not have heard (it literally just occurred to me). The insight being the Unity engine making something which was once a difficult and esoteric technical skill now easy and ubiquitous.

    The path to richness in any business is to be in demand and have a niche. There are niches in making "offbrand" products which may be profitable but will never achieve a high public status. Game dev may have once been a difficult thing to get into, with $10,000 game engine licenses per seat and other expensive software to purchase, and maybe a degree in CS to take advantage of it all. Unity and other game engines brought the barriers down. Everyone since the dawn of games has made wanted to make them. That is the "in demand" part. However Unity made it not so unque, and instead ubiquitous. Good for Unity, not good for devs.
     
  31. chrisrolls55

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    This is very true. One of my good friends has released a game, has over 1million downloads on Google Play and is making more than enough revenue to be very comfortable, however...

    *This was his third release, the first two flopped.
    *It took 18 months of hard work from start to release and a further 18 months of development and releases
    *He has been a website front end back end programmer and supervisor for 20 years so he has plenty of coding experience.
    *He spent money on art assets with an independent artist so there was risk of losses. His partner spent a lot of her free time promoting through social media which allowed him to concentrate on his game.

    So yes, there are many factors as to why games flop and bare statistics are not always that relevant.

    Make something good and it has a chance.
     
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  32. Moonjump

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    I was a level designer on Forsaken. I'm sorry you didn't like the game, but it does bring up something on why so many games are similar to existing successful games.

    How much do people want more of what they already have? And how much do they want something new? Clones are a problem at one end of the spectrum. The other end of the spectrum can be a problem because people don't understand it. But are there other gaps in the middle where people expect something because of certain similarities, but get something different?
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2017
  33. ShilohGames

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    Yeah, I think with Forsaken specifically, a lot of gamers simply wanted a nearly exact Descent clone but with improved/newer graphics. One disadvantage multiplayer clones have is getting the playerbase to move to a new game. A lot of people played multiplayer Descent back then, and it would have taken a lot to move a significant portion of the playerbase to multiplayer Forsaken. It is similar to how difficult it is for any game to challenge Counter Strike these days. Even newer versions of Counter Strike often have a difficult task moving the multiplayer playerbase to the new version.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2017
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  34. nbirko2928

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    For those who made money and are successful, that's wonderful, but I have seen many folks who have yet to release anything but spend lots of money on tools, other developers/artists, etc, and they put all their eggs in this basket. You're forgetting that this is a very competitive market and one basic question people need to ask themselves is, why should others play your game? What makes your game better than other games out there? This is specially the case when you have no track record.

    The other big thing I feel like people are missing is a marketable personality. I'm not saying you need to be famous, but you need to put your name out there and not be afraid of showing yourself to the world instead of a random cartoon picture. I know it's not always the case, but I find it more professional when people don't hide under rocks (I was guilty of this btw). Connecting and networking with the right people increases your odds of success, and such people would prefer to deal with real people.
     
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  35. Deleted User

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    Does anyone even read my posts???
     
  36. Deleted User

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    I read this one :D..! HA, joking yes I did..

    You're not wrong but mainly it's on the publishers, in a race the bottom with so much content nobody is going to win..
     
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  37. Kiwasi

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    No, did you say something? :p
     
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