The Other Brothers Kickstarter open discussion on tricks, tips and why KS can fail

That Penny Arcade article is really scandalous. Sometimes I wonder if they realize the influence they got over people ...
- "With great power, comes great responsibility."

 

@nipoco
For mobile and smaller projects it's normally good enough to compile from one machine and share the exes with the others. If you go this route the amount reduces to $11000 (under the same conditions as before).

What didn't make sense to me when reading through the campaign on Indiegogo was, that they sell the iOS and Android investments to those who only get the PC/Mac versions (DRM free?). The $100 offer sounds after marketing in order to get more money from not well informed backers.

On the other hand the price is more reasonable, the campaign is running long and they can keep everything they collect in this timeframe without the need to fulfill a specific goal like on kickstarter.

 

Still, its not a very nice thing to do if people are giving them money.

True, $5 is a good price for the game i think.

 

I didn't say that it's nice.

Time will tell what the game will be worth but at least it looks more competitive this way.

 

Hrm I should have clarified, I was simply talking about the TOB section. As for the other incidents they mentioned it was a bit off, but still not as evil as they were going on about. Big publishers do this stuff all the time, and also can pay for advertising to draw these journalists to them. But I don't defend the bribery, it's just a hard situation and I don';t think the dev's thought about how it was coming off.

 

I'm not saying this to be mean , but I'm going to say the indie go is going to raise much less then the kickstarter . Only since Indie go makes you use paypal/doesn't look as professional as kickstarter

 

I want to know how this game will change before the next kickstarter/indiego. I suggested power-ups similar to the Mario series with built in mini games (arcade machines) to earn them.

 

I agree that Indiegogo looks less professional, but for other reasons. Paypal usage is not one of them, since it's exactly what allows people from all around the world to start a fundraising, instead than being limited to US/UK

 

Its how Indeego uses paypal, the money doesn't actually pass though them , If you donate via-Indeego the money goes straight to the project owners paypal .

The problem here is that PayPal does a very bad job of keeping track of who is actually getting the money, so you could post a fake project and run once you get the money .

 

Actually it's not exactly like that (if I understood correctly what you meant): it simply gives you more choice, as a fundraiser. When you start a fundraising on Indiegogo, it's up to you to decide if you want a flexible campaign or a fixed one. Fixed ones work exactly like Kickstarter: if the goal is reached the developer gets the money, otherwise everyone who donated gets his money back. Flexible instead is the one that works like you mentioned: as soon as you donate, the developer gets the money.

If I misunderstood instead, sorry for that. Could you explain how Paypal allows scams that Kickstarter doesn't? (I'm not asking this aggressively, but out of true curiosity)

 

So, unfortunately, The Other Brothers' Kickstarter failed. It would be very helpful to the community to hear some insight from The Other Brothers' team members as to why they think it failed.

Thanks,
Shawn

 

With KS someone can report the project if they think its a scam , and KS can shut it down before the money goes out . With Indeegogo the money has already went to paypal . And Indegogo allows fund my life projects , like getting a surgery done or something else thats not really a project .
Keep in mind Indeegogo raises far less money then KS does , it just doesn't feel as safe . This is just my opinion though .

 

I donated money to some lady's heart surgery via IndieGoGo and it was easy to tell them not to spam me unlike feedthechildren.org where they were spending more money spamming me then on food. The only thing I have as 'proof' the heart surgery was valid was the number of donors. I'd didn't actually google it or anything like I do all those false alarms on Facebook.

 

I'm sensing a lot of negativity. The reason indiegogo was started so soon is because we are able to hopefully still inspire the people who backed us on KS, to support us through indiegogo. You're aware we don't see any money from the failed KS? Regardless I find your post both hostile and offensive, laced with swear words.

If you think that's the way to make friends with developers then more power to you.

 

Totally agree with you Hippo. At the end of the day, it's (a) not anyone else's place/business to try and pick apart what you guys are doing, and (b) not deserving of any sort of hostility - games cost money to make, you're trying to raise money, end of story.

I don't understand why anyone has ANYTHING negative to say in this thread. Good luck to you guys, I hope you get what you need to help with the development costs.

 

I don't think that's any of your business, or anyone else for that matter. If he says it'll cost him $20,000 than it'll cost him $20,000. No use in having him explain his intentions. Grow up.

 

Well that penny arcade article says you shouldnt encourage other people to promote your project, that if it doenst happen "organically" then its not legitimate. But suppose I like the project but I dont have the knowledge of what to do to help and I am too lazy to look it up, if the developer helps you help them then is it any less legitimate then someone who is on the ball to do that on the behalf without any prompting (to post it to penny arcade, touch arcade etc).

 

Woah, you just wrinkled my brain.

(for all the Community fans out there)

 

Calm down mate!
He only asked why this is going to cost them that particular amount of money as stated on the IndieGoGo site, which is a legitimate question if you ask me. And if you do the math ( or look a page back) you will see that $20000 seems too much for the licenses.

People who are willing to donate, might be interested where their money is going. I see nothing wrong with that.

And while his wording is out of place, I gotta agree with that statement to an extend.

I have no problem when people raising money for their games. I absolutely welcome that. Game development is costly. So it's great that something like Kickstarter or IndieGoGo exists. But you should also honest with your calculations. We don't talk about $50 borrowed from your grandma.

Just my two cents

 

If I am backing it (which I'm not) I would think it is my business to know were my money is actually going.

Ok, sorry for my nasty post yesterday. I am aware that you don't see any money from the failed kickstarter but I think that putting the indie gogo so soon(same day) as the kickstarter ended nearly as though sense you couldn't get the 50,000 to fund your project you will still try and sponge the money out of them.

I apologize if i insulted you and the rest of The Other Brothers team, but if that is what I think then most likely others will to $50,000 is lots of money having such huge loop holes is what you need the money for is not something that is good IMO especially when it is coming from misinformed people... And really if you and the rest of The Other Brothers team are willing to take this money, and if other developers would condone such behavior then really i have no interest in being friends with them. If you could explain these rewards that have no other reason i can see other then gaining money from misinformed backers, or why you need the licenses that most likely you already have then I will apologize in full.

 

But given that you're NOT backing it, it isn't your business and therefore you had no reason to ask?

 

But what if I am not backing it because i don't know were the money is going But at the end of the day, I keep my money and they don't get it so really it is just a win loose situation I win they loose.

 

Probably because you can be skilled and market-aware, as our OPs are, but still fail. Their game is interesting but it will compete against some absolute gems given out for free: Zombie Tsunami, the Eternity Warriors II and so on. Good luck to them.

 

You might have forgotten the intention of this thread:

*snip*
I invite you to an open discussion here on the unity forums to look at our kickstarter page and tell me your HONEST NO PUNCHES PULLED opinion. If it's S***, please tell me why. If it does not want inspire you to back it, then don't pull punches, tell us why please.
*snap*

Maybe during the campaign people got a little bit more thin skinned or feedback isn't wanted now anymore. Regardless of the harsh way Tyler asked his questions, they have some valid aspects and if the team would be as communicative as before they also would be answering. If you know the details then the new campaign can come around shady and i guess that's what upsets Tyler. I wouldn't be surprised if you made those points public on the campaign that it would affect sales as well and can hurt your reputation.

Anyway, what i found interesting is the idea that it can make sense starting a Kickstarter campaign, also if you know it will fail, just to aggravate backers and interest due to the greater presence Kickstarter has compared to other funding methods and then later on taking along a certain percentage of those users/media presence to another service which is less known but might offer some more dev friendly options.

 

My overall opinion on Kickstarter, if your a well established dev house then its fine to ask for enough to pay your self a bit . Like Tim Scaffer makes his living off making games . Thats why so many people are backing him . BUT if your not well known then asking for enough to buy what you need to complete the project(computers, licenses , ect ) AND asking for enough to pay yourself a salary is a bit much .

I'm going to be honest, the 25k plus you guys got pledged to your kickstarter is far more then you'll raise on indee go go , and push come to shove it would of helped you guys finish the game . I can't tell any of you how to run a company , but 50k is alot of money to ask for when your not a well known studio , Tyler's right in a way since by creating a Indee Go Go the same day it looks like you didn't take any time to look inward , talk with the team about how much is THE MINIMUM you'd need to finish the game, and reevaluate your goals . Infact I don't see why you didn't just wait a week and repost the game with a lower goal.

The other brothers looks like a cool game , and I will buy it when it ships , but the whole process here hasn't shown you guys in a positive light .
Good though .

 

Well... it looks like theirs an option to NOT use paypal, ( I really really hate them )so you guys might see a bit of money from me...

 

Back on the original topic of this thread...

My honest opinion is that your Kickstarter page was never effective enough in telling what your game is and what makes it different from other similar games (just like other posters have said). When I scroll down the page, the first text I see is "Only a couple of days to go, please spread the word and help us make this game as great as it can be! Scroll down for the older video" which doesn't really grab my interest or make me want to watch your video.

In fact, the only text on your Kickstarter page that ever grabbed my interest at all, the part that said the game was about two garage mechanics rescuing a damsel in distress from some Mafia thugs, disappeared in the later versions of the page.

So, my suggestion is that you needed a logline, which is a short, one-sentence description of what your story is about that is crafted to grab someone's interest. Loglines have mainly been used in the film industry to sell movie scripts, but they are a useful tool for anyone telling a story (and if you don't have a story at all, you're not going to grab my interest).

A good logline may have helped your supporters when they told their friends about your game, whether they sent them a link to the page or gave a description of the game first.

I know it's a little late for your Kickstarter campaign, but so that others can learn from what made this one fail, I'll give my advice anyway and I hope it helps someone.

 

its nice to hear where your donated money goes, and theres no need to respond to him like that, its just a question.

 

Actually, whenever you post something in a public place (forum, board, etc) you make it other peoples business, therefore expect opinions, mocking, praise, etc etc.

If you dont want to make something other people's business except your own, then keep it silent and to yourself.

 

Totally agree. We were able to slash cost of indie pro based on what a fellow developer advised too, so we will be revising that amount. It's 11k (or roughly) to cover us. We only need 2-3 licenses to function well (but unfortunately both need asset server and multiple outputs).

So that's a good thing.

Regarding no punches pulled, people need to realise that is being 100% honest and scathing, plus a bit of brutality. It does not mean you can just abuse the development team: there's a difference I don't think any differently about Tyler, its a free internet forum. But I did think he was more rude than he needed to be but he apologised, its all good.

Now in the next post I will sum up what I feel personally went wrong with our original kickstarter to help this thread. This isn't a fake thread, its a thread that genuinely asks why.

 

yes and no. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the developers aren't publicly releasing how they will spend the money or anything because they choose not to. Even if they did, the information they gave would actually make it other people's business but only as far as the information goes. So all in all, it depends on the information released.

 

What went wrong in my own opinion?

1. we did not set aside enough planning time to properly design the rewards (see our indie gogo for a much better selection of rewards here (and also feel free to break it down like KS) http://www.indiegogo.com/theotherbrothers?c=home&a=1152799

2. we did not update enough (Also fixed on indiegogo with regular shakeycam or quickly frappsed shots to show people what we're doing and build excitement live)

3. 50k was too much to ask for, although the right amount to ask for split 4 ways to enable us to go full time on TOB and make it as good as it could be. Advice would be to shoot for 15k-20k and make it in relation to how well known you are personally. The fact we hit almost 30k meant given a couple of weeks extra we would have gotten backed.

4. Any money is better than no money in development. And finally lets not forget: Kickstarter and IndieGOGO has kind of moved on from being "begging friends for money" to "pre sales". Don't forget that every penny pledged does come with things paid for.

On IGG, we are already obliged to make a sequence for someone's cameo appearance since he dropped on that tier. So we're going to have him squashed or something by an innocent switch you can pull, and he will also pop up in the credits and other places. $350 isn't a lot to ask for to cameo star in a game that will be cross platformmed up to the eyeballs! It's a bargain and a fun bragging right - esp if it appears on devices you would not expect!

So people are getting what they pay for - and in IGG's case I think we had enough experience from KS to realise how to fix the situation so backers get good value for money.

 

I guess since Kickstarter is over, i'm allowed to speak again, my opinion (additional to what i initially wrote):

The game still doesn't convince that it's a killer game, unless you provide a demo which demonstrates the opposite.

Whilst you have some very nice colouring, the pixel art the way you use it for the sprites sometimes is confusing and not this well choosen and therefore doesn't work well together with fast jump&run.

I don't know who is to blame for the presentation but on Indiegogo you're hiding most of the not convincing Kickstarter-retro-blabla, therefore it's much better but if you have some knowledge about what's going on then it's shady because you're not telling the truth to the backers. You simply don't need $20k for the software to make such a game with 4 people, especially if you're tight on budget and you know that but you're explaining your expenses this way to them, same with the Ouya tier. This makes you unbelievable without a need because why not telling the truth and saying we simply need/want this money. If i would be a backer and find out about this, you would get some bad feedback.

The competition is hard these days. I think the best chances of the game are that it will collect money in the long run. Showing up on several platforms, being included in several bundles and so on. Kind of reminds me of Titan Quest, they initially had awful sales compared to what the publisher was hoping for but because it was a really good game, it continued to sell over the years. Of course the genre is different but a certain amount still is valid for each game which has some true inner values. Beside of this, this can be a door opener for more convincing/successful future projects.

 

You sad $50,000K was too much to ask for on KS but that's what you're asking for on IGG according to the link I followed.

If you raise 50,000K are you going to quit your jobs so you can work on this full time? That's what you seem to be saying and a good game needs that more than 50,000K. I hope if you do do that you don't find it difficult to find gainful employment should the game not make enough to support the 3 of you.

I read earlier in this thread that money pledged to IndieGoGo is distributed whether or not the final fundraising amount is met. If this is the case you should expect far fewer to pledge now than on KickStarter.

As far as rudeness on the forums goes well I've turned off avatars because based on those alone one shouldn't be expecting too much here as well as removing other information because of a facebook stalker. ;-)

 

You get one shot at a first-impression (aka Law of Primacy)! The KS failed cause the initial video was offensive (intro scene) and boring (blah-blah-blah). Even though you made changes later on, the initial launch wasted a lot of good-will. No worries - failure is part of the path that leads to success. I hope you succeed, and for my part, if you release ToB to iOS, I'll probably buy it.

Gigi.

 

Totally agree there. Would I have approached things differently if I was in full control? possibly, but I don't know if it would have been better or worse, but it's a good enough thing to discuss.

I want to say a big thanks to gigiwoo and everyone else who's been kind enough to lay down their time and energy both in backing us and discussing this. So, thanks guys!

 

I'm not a big fan of the gap between $50 T-shirt and the $250 Name in-game. (I don't particularly care about linux or OUYA - and I suspect I am in the majority on this)

For a split second, I thought "Well, I guess I'll go $50 instead" and got everything setup to pay.

I thought about it again and ended up contributing the $250, but that's only because I have an idea of who you are from these forums. For the regular Indiegogo user, I can't see them spending any more than the $50 tier at the current setup.

 

Has there been any real analysis in general as far as the Rewards offered on Kickstarter projects goes and how it relates to funding?

Because most of the Rewards seem to be a complete waste---you either are going to contribute because the idea is cool and you're poor and don't want the Reward anyway or you're going to invest because the idea is cool and you're loaded and don't want the Reward anyway.

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if the Rewards do more harm than good, in the sense that most projects that fail probably because their Rewards are so completely out of line with what they are trying to do, and, given the prominence, is an immediate flag ("$50: we'll send you an email. $10,000: we'll let you actually hang out with us for a few hours! omg!")

 

Is it the internet, the gaming bizz or are just the individuals disturbed who constantly state how awesome others are just because they spend a few dollars on their product? I mean they didn't pull your kid back whilst it was trying to cross the road and oversaw a car or are building a product which might safe your life as you use it or something other important. I can't take such people serious, i think it even doesn't matter if they do it by intention and are brownnosing or are just this way, it's disturbing as they somehow seem to have lost contact to a reasonable unit of value.

 

Well, while in theory I would agree with you, in practice I don't. "Awesome" and stuff like that are words used and limited to a giddy/polite/grateful way, so I don't see the issue. Surely, if someone saves your kid or your life, you would never use the word "awesome", but me more serious about that

 

Personally, the game doesn't look very interesting to me, but I'm not keen on platformers. Also, I think $5 for a mobile game is a bit expensive for what people normally pay.

 

@Izitmee
I don't think so. If you would confront a person who isn't familiar with such exaggerated habits, he would misinterpret the situation. If you take such awesomeness comments serious, you might end up feeling like an astronaut when buying a game. On the other side could you imagine going into a supermarket and a salesperson telling you how awesome you are just because you bought something to eat? I can't or let's say i prefer not to imagine this as i think such comments are quite the opposite of being polite as someone tries to treat you more like an idiot. Maybe it comes close to something like a animator program in a cheap holiday when it's only a matter of time until it gets on your nerves.

This just reminded me of the Næturvaktin serie. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZnsZeR6gD8&feature=context-cha

 

@taumel: I think I understand better what you mean now (and Næturvaktin looks awesome - never heard of it but put it in my watchlist). I suppose it depends on the way it's used. In my opinion, going "overboard" just because you're a cheerful guy doesn't look bad at all to me (and people don't get confused into thinking too much of it), but I agree that doing it with second intentions (sales or whatever) is and looks bad.

 

"Awesome" and "Congratulations on" are cheap buzzwords in the UK/US marketing strategies. Sometimes you just do not need to be too clever and con your customers, simply ask for what you really need and hit the goal.

As for this particular case, $50k was way too much, but the $25k goal was actually achieved. It is mean to say that they were going to make a crust but hey, we're indies (outspoken, childish and somewhat detached from B2B approach), not a corporate environment.

 

@Izitmee
The clip might be weird as it throws you right into the action without any previous knowledge. Næturvaktin is well acted and well written and i like the disturbing humour.

 

Yeah, the $5 gets you the desktop version plus beta where you can have input and so on, which a lot of people enjoy - a "window" into game development. We're not offering mobile with that package.

 

@taumel: I really liked that clip, and I love disturbing non-scatological humor

 

Gamasutra did a survey of Kickstarter contributors.
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/176839/gamasutras_kickstarter_survey_.php

"It's all about the spoken word, the majority of respondents said"

"Developers also may want to use their words (and proof of concepts) adequately to earn pledges. Respondents expressed the two main reasons they don't pledge are when the text and videos failed to ignite interest or instill trust that the projects would be completed."

 

As someone who is going to be running his own Kickstarter soon, there were a host of issues I see with your Kickstarter.

The music wasn't very interesting. The theme became extremely repetitive and made me want to stop your video twenty seconds in. The flipping of the guitar player sprite in the opening was a terrible turn off as it broke the immersion of the world. Worst of all absolutely nothing happened for the first fifty seconds of your video other than the same looped scene and the title of the project.

Personally, it seems like waiting fifty seconds for just a title screen is a waste of my time and it really turned me off. You could have communicated so much more of your project with that time. Instead you squandered your time like you were doing this HUGE reveal of some sort when you were just building to the title of your project which everyone already knew since that's what it says at the top of the page. A lot of people may give you props on the Unity forums, but competing against other Kickstarter projects, you've got to get to the point or at least have something interesting to say. You didn't. What you said in the first fifty seconds of your video was you title. And no disrespect, to me it felt flat.

This is going off your last video by the way. At heart, what sells isn't style. It's gameplay. And again you can't compare the feedback you get on the Unity forums to the feedback you'll get in the real world. And I'm not sure you really convinced anyone what was so special about your game apart from the snazzy graphics.

This is literally everything you said about your gameplay:

And really. What you've failed to do is explain what's special about it compared to Braid, Super Meat Boy, Limbo, or even New Super Mario Bros. 2. Yeah, it's got a unique art style. But what about the game? What's so unique about it other than the fact that you're kind of aping "Super Mario Bros." in a tongue in cheek kind of way.

I'm sorry to say. It felt like the high feedback on Unity kind of warped how much effort you thought you should put into your Kickstarter and how it should be presented.

It's one thing to introduce yourselves in the text and quite another to literally introduce yourselves as videogame characters inside the first ten seconds of your video. Are you trying to pitch your game or are you trying to pitch the guys making the game? What you need is one face. Two at the most to talk about the game and what makes it special from other platformer games.

Two problems with this. One. When you explain that your game is about running, jumping, collecting, and racing against the clock, as gameplay mechanics, what's supposed to be so special about this that I can't do this in something like Mario Bros, Super Meat Boy?

Second. Citing "Retro Pixel Glory" as your main selling point isn't a good idea simply because what you're trying to cite by "going back" doesn't really gel with reality. There are a TON of modern games who use "Retro Pixel Glory". Lone Survivor, Home, Penny Arcade 3 are just three. Or what about Fez?

You're not bringing something back because that art style is still around and that makes it harder to swallow what you're selling.

What are these fresh, modern, ideas? Because at this point running, jumping, collecting, and racing against the clock, as gameplay mechanics, aren't fresh modern ideas.

What's your gameplay?

Yes. Yes it is. We already know this. Just like cel-shading is a style choice. What's your point?

But it's already back? I mean. Have you played Super Princess Peach? That was pixel art. What about Pokemon? That's still pixel art.

Look. I'm not trying to be harsh about this. But by this time, you've already overplayed your hand. You're trying to pitch the fact your game features pixel art like its such a whole new way to do gaming isn't really believable. Maybe your overall style is unique and I'll give it that. But to harp on the pixel art thing is just a bad idea.

Then you go into why you need money. You go into rewards. And never talk about your gameplay.

So let me ask you one last time, what makes your game so special? What's so unique about it?