Search Unity

The mess in the Learn section

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by APSchmidt, Apr 24, 2019.

  1. APSchmidt

    APSchmidt

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    Sure but it's a pity we have to use a search engine to find what we need (and I prefer DuckDuckGo).

    Capture.JPG
     
  2. Antypodish

    Antypodish

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    Seams like over complicating query. No new learning person about loops, will type anything like this. ;)
    But if anything, that is simpler.
    upload_2019-5-6_8-5-6.png

    And more likely will happen following, while probably will by just looking for C# if loop
    upload_2019-5-6_8-7-18.png

    Either way
    As an example, if typing if on Learn section
    upload_2019-5-6_8-10-46.png
    , or loops
    upload_2019-5-6_8-12-49.png

    To be honest, search result was immediate for me, in new Learn.

    However, I will ignore elaborating on GUI at this time (waste of my pixalated space and time on my screen) ... :/
     

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  3. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Only if you don't want results exclusively from the website you specify. Whenever I assist people with finding a reference they were searching for I'll point it out as a way to greatly narrow down the results if you know the exact website that has the information you seek.

    You can even narrow it down further if you wanted to with "site:learn.unity.com/tutorial/" or "site:learn.unity.com/project/".
     
  4. Antypodish

    Antypodish

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    yep. But that is providing, you know where to look for information already.
    If you provide that query to asking person, that is fine.
    Yet, if using search engine, without such narrowing, search can give more reach results.

    Often we don't know where to look exactly. And in worse case, what to look for. Hence we do use synonyms.
    In my opinion, narrowing too strict, may potentially not yield desired results.

    However, yes, it works.
     
  5. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    we are starting to power using the learn section, that's bad if that's for beginner :D
     
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  6. ptcmia

    ptcmia

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    They need to categorize the tutorials better. Instead of just popular and all tutorials.
     
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  7. Owen-Reynolds

    Owen-Reynolds

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    [regarding "refer beginners directly to Learn"]

    Sounds like we're roughly in agreement then: it's called Learn, but it's not the primary place to send someone who has a serious, even very simple Q. "Alternative resources" are better.

    But the internet is big and Unity Forums is small. Despite your efforts here, people are being told to go to Learn, and the Learn button is prominent on the home page. It's going to keep being a problem.
     
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  8. Owen-Reynolds

    Owen-Reynolds

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    That's something I didn't even think of. But my point was the content, once you find it, isn't so great. Here's the IF example from Learn:

    Code (CSharp):
    1.  
    2.   float coffeeTemperature = 85.0f;
    3.   float hotLimitTemperature = 70.0f;
    4.   float coldLimitTemperature = 40.0f;
    5.    
    6.   void Update()  {
    7.     if(Input.GetKeyDown(KeyCode.Space))
    8.       TemperatureTest();
    9.        
    10.     coffeeTemperature -= Time.deltaTime * 5f;
    11.   }
    12.    
    13.   void TemperatureTest() {
    14.         // If the coffee's temperature is greater than the hottest drinking temperature...
    15.         if(coffeeTemperature > hotLimitTemperature) { // ... do this.
    16.             print("Coffee is too hot.");
    17.         } // If it isn't, but the coffee temperature is less than the coldest drinking temperature...
    18.         else if(coffeeTemperature < coldLimitTemperature) { // ... do this.
    19.             print("Coffee is too cold.");
    20.         } // If it is neither of those then...
    21.         else { // ... do this.
    22.             print("Coffee is just right.");
    23.         }
    24.   }
    That's the first and only one. Explain that in front of a class and you'll see the problems - it has way too much: global variables, a function in the test, calling a function, and cascading with a weird high, low, middle check. Plus it doesn't do anything interesting, and doesn't show the unique <=, != or ==. The video doesn't build up to it - just this all at once. You could learn from it, I believe you did, but it's no better than any other code snippet from a sample project and could be a lot better.
     
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  9. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Learn is actually fantastic cos there's 2 ways we can go from here:

    1. have a bunch of cheap paid content online, varying quality, no guarantees
    2. have a bunch of professionally authored content by unity kept relevant

    The ONLY thing that's bad is it's called "Learn" because learn implies a wide eyed innocent, and was historically free, so I would suggest @Aurore that you think about using the word training and change the learn link to redirect to training, or maybe clean up the messaging on the site a bit. Now, training is widely accepted as a professional and paid for thing.

    So people are in fact, only hype over a simple matter that's easily designed out. Of course there will always be free learn material, but training is a more professional approach.

    Not sure why people are worried, so long as Unity keeps pumping out content for learn and training.
     
  10. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    I swear it was much better when I did it five years ago. Maybe my memory is just dodgy.

    I recall it showing a bunch of unity relevant things, not just something that you could do in a console app.

    But you are right, that example isn't especially great for a first point of call. Might as well go straight to MSDN.
     
  11. TenKHoursDev

    TenKHoursDev

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    For a game engine company with the mission to "democratize game development" --> this sure is anti-democracy.
     
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  12. Antypodish

    Antypodish

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    Either way, as it stands now Learn section, I will advise any new person, to look everywhere else, but Learn.
    This is how much I dislike it, when I look at it. I think mainly because of new layout.
    At the current state, it is not newbie friendly place at all in my opinion.
    I just feel weird, when I try browse it.
     
  13. GameDevCouple_I

    GameDevCouple_I

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    Whats anti democracy about it? Sort of confused as to what this has to do with "democracy" at all? In what way have your choices or voting power or voice been taken away by introduction of the new learn format?
     
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  14. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Of course not. But you're using a free engine if using personal, worth actually over 3 billion. So there's that. Paying for an optional purchase of training material is not objectionable.

    Have to be reasonable: we want to learn but game dev is so huge, some paid training is actually needed because everyone is making different things.

    There are still the forums and a web of free content plus Unity's own free content available. True, Learn section could use some cleanup of terms used and a cleaner signalling on the website but other than this I can't hate on Unity for it.

    In fact the learn team is IMHO one of the very best parts of Unity, and even an old hand like me has learned from it. Lets give them a tiny bit of slack here and look at how they could improve the website aspect.
     
  15. neoshaman

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    That if sample is great if you come from another language (say, innocently, blitz3d), ie know the basics, and learn at a glance teh c# unity way.
     
  16. GameDevCouple_I

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    I have to say, just the fact that the learn section has enough content now to warrant a visual revamp is pretty heartening. It certainly was not this easy to learn unity when I started out and would have killed for something like this back then.

    I still think the layout isnt great, but I also have used an engine for all hobbyist projects without having to legally pay any licensing fees for like 8-9 years now and have managed to build a career off the back of the skill, so I guess I should learn to complain less about free stuff that has been added to make my other free stuff easier to use.
     
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  17. Antypodish

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    I think is good to complain, but in constructive way. Just by giving feedback, justifying why do you like, or don't like xyz.
    Sometimes right kick in the back side, can turn into good direction :)
     
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  18. Owen-Reynolds

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    Learn now looks like the typical situation where you add stuff as 1-offs, just whatever to get content. The result is stuff that overlaps, and has gaps, and the intended audience and goal jumps all over the place. The fix is rewriting the content. Refactoring, if you will. It's that painful stage when someone thinks they have 30 videos, wants 60 total, and are half done; when in fact they have 30 hiding places for the good ideas they need to redo in a consistent way. In other words, going from 1) to 2) is a big step.

    Particle systems are the easiest and most fun things to show - here's how to make a smokestack, poison-status bubbles, falling leaves. But they don't do that. I found ParticleSystems in the "Unity for Artists" bubble (which seems odd, but fine). The basic one looks like a Preview at a live event from when Shuruken came out - quickly tapping through each option for people who haven't seen it yet. Fine at first, but needs to be cut. Add a version with prep. For the emitter shapes, have a Scene with a dozen variations pre-made. The video says "we'll pick this shader". Show them a Scene using them all, lined up.

    But beyond that, the video is just mechanics. The juice is "How do I make X". Put those videos (which aren't made) up front, and let the authors know they can say "for a longer explanation of why I picked this setting, check out ParticleSystem Options Part-II." Ideally, the mechanics section can reference some of the cool effects, as examples.

    Meanwhile, the explosion particle system is mostly scripting - FunWithExplosions is rigidbodies and raycasting. It might be fine in the Physics section, which has one video on Raycasting. But it doesn't tie into it. Or maybe it should be advertised as a Survey - here's what you can make, see raycasting, etc... sections for details. The next one "PIT" shows a little about making explosion particle systems, but also more scripting. It's what someone felt like making. But where's the obvious video: how to make a flash, rolling flames, blasting fiery bits, weedy black smoke plumes?
     
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  19. Antypodish

    Antypodish

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  20. APSchmidt

    APSchmidt

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  21. Antypodish

    Antypodish

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    Previously something caused by this popup
    upload_2019-5-23_19-13-15.png
    But can not replicate.
     
  22. APSchmidt

    APSchmidt

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    I just noticed that we can no longer open any page in the learn section in another tab or window. Middle mouse button clicking doesn't work and the option in the contextual menu is simply not there.

    I was here (https://learn.unity.com/project/beginner-gameplay-scripting) and I wanted to MM click on "Tutorials" to open it in a new tab so that I don't lose my page: no way! And there is no "open in a new tab" option in the contextual menu.
     
  23. AcidArrow

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    Nonsense, Unity is just keeping up with the latest trends.

    They are flattening the engine UI, they are gamifying the Learn section.

    As for web design I see clear inspirations from this.
     
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  24. Antypodish

    Antypodish

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  25. Zarconis

    Zarconis

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    Putting extremely basic videos behind a paywall like https://learn.unity.com/tutorial/creating-basic-ui-elements, is pretty poor though. I'd happily pay for more complex and in depth training (already have via Udemy etc. before) but what should be common knowledge doc type stuff for people trialling the engine or students ain't on.

    Even when engines cost upwards of a $100K nobody did things like that and it remains today that they still don't whether the engine is free or not.
     
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  26. FMark92

    FMark92

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  27. ptcmia

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    I wouldn't mind the tutorial being behind a paywall as long as they dedicate a team to keeping them updated and post new tutorials frequently or on a consistent timeline.
     
  28. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Frankly I suggest getting good at solving problems yourselves and using forums and having several mentors. Because Games often pop up problems that are not solvable by a tutorial of questionable quality (often, a tutorial will use an easier but not very good technique since why are you there, if not struggling?)
     
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  29. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    If they just bury the previous FREE tutorial, as long as I can find it easily as a "power user", i'm fine.

    I just ended a traning where people are super wary of free stuff, because it's connoted with less quality or quality not guaranteed. They much prefer to pay for something they can thrust. So paying is kind of a soothing mechanism, that's how the market is beyond power user. With paywall alternative, they actually serves these wary people, which behavior would always boggle our own mind, but they do exist so why not?
     
  30. APSchmidt

    APSchmidt

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    People are stupid, nothing to do about that. Whoever said that stuff you pay for are obviously better than free stuff; it's probably the reverse.

    If Unity Technologies comes to that in the future, they'll lose my consideration. Not that they would care I guess.
     
  31. neoshaman

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    We are always somebody else's stupid.

    I spend enough time with them to know they aren't, they just don't have the same culture and exposition, good free stuff is basically mostly a thing in software circle and much rarer elsewhere. Also paid come with heavy reputation to hold, so sourcing info about quality is easier because angry paying customer get the word hard faster. Also it's a way to reduce cognitive load, especially when you start in a field you are absolutely unfamiliar with. Paying is basically filtering quality through authority.

    Don't let culture clash cloud your judgement :D
     
  32. APSchmidt

    APSchmidt

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    Yeah, i guess this is why between two perfectly identical products, people will buy the more expensive because they think (do they?) that "more expensive == better". I call that stupidity. Nothing to do with culture.

    With this kind of philosophy Unity Technologies might one day think "Well, people want to pay, why do we still offer our editor for free? They want to pay, let's make them pay!"
     
  33. neoshaman

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    Nah the point is that they still offer both options, I mean that's why they have unbridled pro features to all.

    But it's not more "expensive == better", it's "== safer", it mean there is a legal entity you can return to in case of dissatisfaction, so sorting paying options is faster than sorting all options. And also they favor paying options with services, so not all paying option are the same. It's a culture thing, and as all culture thing, if you are an outsider it's hard to get the nuances, I mean I would had react like you before taking that training.
     
  34. Owen-Reynolds

    Owen-Reynolds

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    [QUOTE="neoshaman, post: 4765751, member: 35101"it mean there is a legal entity you can return to in case of dissatisfaction[/QUOTE]

    That's why people often prefer paying for a product or service -- something ongoing. They want to know a serious company is there to keep it updated and fix bugs. That partly why Linux really took off after RedHat started charging for builds.

    But that's not a reason why paid instruction would be better. It's not as if your artists are re-watching Unity's particle system tutorial every time, then when it suddenly goes down you can't finish your game. For that matter, you wouldn't even need to send new hires there unless all of your old ones quit.
     
  35. Ryiah

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    Agreed, but a good deal of this is marketing taking advantage of the way we think as much as anything, and if you research marketing tactics it's amusing to look back and realize that you were as much affected by it as everyone else.
     
  36. APSchmidt

    APSchmidt

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    I don't think so now that I'm old; when I was young, yes, probably. :)
     
  37. Ryiah

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    Age isn't the determining factor here. You need to read up and understand why it affects you the way it does to notice that you're being affected. If it were as simple as getting old then it wouldn't be affecting old people the way it does. If anything thinking you're immune just because you're "older and wiser" just makes you more susceptible to it.
     
  38. APSchmidt

    APSchmidt

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    Let's say that I do my best to buy only what I need not what people want me to buy.
     
  39. Ryiah

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    Marketing is more than just advertising products you may not need.
     
  40. APSchmidt

    APSchmidt

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    I know that but I cannot do anything about it.
     
  41. neoshaman

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    That's kinda the point of marketing right there lol
     
  42. PizzaPie

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    A bit off topic, but... how about more written tutorials rather video ones?
     
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  43. APSchmidt

    APSchmidt

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    The new tutorials/projects are written; they are designed for people who use cell phones. Go read a script in a video on a cell phone...
     
  44. APSchmidt

    APSchmidt

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    So, I'm giving the new learn projects a try. I need a break from my current game building. So I went to Learn, logged in and selected Ruby's Adventure: 2D Beginner.

    I completed the first steps and got this:

    Capture.JPG
    It's now obvious that the new learn section has been designed for kids under twelve, not for us. Going to carry on just to see what happens.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
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  45. APSchmidt

    APSchmidt

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    I'm progressing in the Ruby's Adventure 2D beginner project. I must be around the middle of it now and I'm in fact happily surprised by it. It is rather good, clear, and I actually understand a few things that were still foggy (how and why using Properties, for example).

    The quality of the project outweigh the silly image I posted above. :)

    I hope the other projects are on a par with this one.

    On a side note, I'm going to do all the proposed projects with the alpha versions of Unity. I'm currently using 2019.3.0a11 for Ruby's adventure.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2019
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