The majority of developers should quit game development.

I moved out here to California to be an actor. People said, "uh, yeah, good luck with that." But I did it anyway.

Auditioned for a couple of things, and my first film role was in a B level sci-fi flick. Had a speaking role, closeups, did some stunts, even had a cool death scene. Got to sign autographs for people at the premier (totally surreal and awesome), and was sort of a local celebrity at my grocery store, haha. After that I appeared in some music videos and got involved with other film related projects. It was AWESOME. What I totally wanted to do.

I mention all of that for no reason other than I want to get across how much fun and rewarding all of that was. Something I'll never forget; it will always be a memory that makes me smile. That's the important part.

Anyway, so here I am doing something I LOVE, and then... money called, and responsibility called, and life called, and they said "Hey, Jenna, you need to make sure you keep working on your games, because this acting stuff, it might not work out." That's a pretty loud and powerful chorus of voices, there. And so I did. I focused harder on my game business, because I had a family to support. Three kids who needed more than what I could provide driving back and forth into LA proper, going to classes and auditions. The game business became the focus, and it's been four years now since I had anything much to do with film. My friends in LA, meanwhile, are landing roles here, there, everywhere, directing films, doing their thing, and here I am sitting at a computer, making video games.

I miss acting. It's what I want to do, and I keep telling myself every day that I'll get some new head shots and make it happen. And every day, instead, I answer tech support emails and fix bugs and wonder where my life went. My kids are grown now and out of the house, and nothing's stopping me except this job.

Sometimes you need to do the thing you WANT to do instead of just doing the thing the rest of the world thinks you should do and tells you to do. Don't fault Dolph Lundgren for doing what he loves. Making movies is awesome. It's a hell of a lot more fun than making games, at least for me.

Do what you do, and let everyone else what they do.

 

I bet when you go back to acting the other actors will be like.. "Wow! You actually make games!"
The grass is always greener!

 

Word.

The guy is famous enough that we all know who he is and people on this board are judging that guy for his life decisions? Dolph did just fine without the Unity Forums deciding his life for him.

 

I think only one person is judging him as a failure (or judging at all for that matter). I actually thought he was very good in Rocky IV, Universal Soldier, Masters of the Universe, The Punisher and The Expendables movies. I actually don't see how anyone could see him as a failure.

 

Jeez, all @I am da bawss did was mention that he wasted his obvious talents in other areas, no need for collective flagellation. For all you know, maybe Dolph cries every night thinking of what he could have done if he'd gone to MIT, and punches a wall whenever he gets another script with 2 words of dialogue.

 

And for all we know he may be extremely happy with his decisions and satisfied with his movie career.

 

So? Why is the fact that it was mentioned an important issue? Can't anyone give a personal opinion anymore without the Spanish inquisition coming down?

He no doubt makes a lot of money, so I doubt he's got any issues with his choice. In any case, it's pretty irrelevant what anyone here thinks of him, so I don't know why it matters to anyone. He's not going to come and break the forums down looking for anybody.

 

It is probably not an important issue, just other people are giving their opinion. It is after all a discussion. Or at least I think? I don't think anyone is really getting worked up about it. lol

 

Lol yeah I know, I just thought it was strange how people latched onto the "don't judge Dolph" thing and missed the point entirely.

I though the point that @I am da bawss made was interesting though, that a lot of people might find greater fulfillment in the things that they are better at, rather than trying to be good at something that for one reason or another they aren't able to succeed with. People usually gravitate toward what they're good at anyway, since a lot of enjoyment comes from the sense of accomplishment and the admiration of peers following success. Whether it's true in one particular case is irrelevant. But I think it's something that might be worth considering/discussing. Nobodys saying that people should be told what to do.

 

Yeah I can see that. I think mainly folks are talking about the other side of the coin. That even though a person may be very good at something it might not really be what their heart wants them to be doing. In general, I do agree it is a much easier road to success if you focus on what you are best at. Yet at the same time I also know sometimes you just get burnt out on the thing you are really best at and just want to take a different path. Often it is the fact that you are not very good at it that makes it so much more enjoyable. The greater risk of failure. The learning opportunities. The Challenge. I might not be explaining it well but I think you can see what I mean?

 

Yeah of course I see what you mean. I just thought that a lot of the replies were a bit reactive and nobody took the time to actually look at the point that was being made, and just replied his example which wasn't really very relevant.

I totally agree, you gotta do what you want, and I'm not saying that people should feel compelled to do something they don't want to.

But I think there are a number of things at play. First, as I said, I think a lot of people consider game development to be an easy way out of hard work/financial problems and totally end up getting wrecked. And also, I think a lot of people like the idea of being someone who makes a game, rather than actually doing it. You know, the cool hip filmmaker/game developer who's pretty eccentric but all the girls like him. They don't actually approach it as being a difficult process involving a lot of hardship and failure, that they will have to train themselves endlessly to be good at, and that sometimes they have to treat it a bit unemotionally, just like any other enterprise. And perhaps they're even trying to escape that rote formula, in some other job, thinking that here it's all fun and games and artistic inspiration. That's the sense I get.

I don't really know yet if I'm cut out to make games, but I've been through a little bit of hell to get even this far, and while I still don't know exactly why I even want to do it, it's coming from a source that I certainly don't need to pamper and sweet-talk with for motivation. Sometimes I think I'm totally wasting my time, but I just have a masochistic need of some kind to do it, that I can hardly resist. That's probably why I don't have any need to avoid criticism and talk of harsh realities since it doesn't change anything anyway, even though sometimes I wish it would.

 

The problem is 4/5 of the posts on this thread are projection or finger pointing. Dolph doesn't have to cure cancer, it's Dolph's life, not mine or yours - and who are we to judge his life decisions. It doesn't even matter if he's happy or sad with his decisions. At the end of the day, his decisions are his alone.

@I am da bawss wrote a post that talks about how Dolph "should have" been doing something else with his life, and implies that he wasted it. That his life is some kind of tragic tale of squandered talent.

The real shame is that some feel the need to project and criticize others in order to come to terms with their own mistakes or unhappiness. That they need to point fingers in order to justify their own decisions.

That said, I don't really fault @I am da bawss because even though I thought his post was crappy. It was funny enough to let it slide! And at least it had a picture!

 

It might be projection, but nobody is accusing anyone here of any specific thing, we're just having a general discussion. If someone thinks Dolph wasted his life, cool, that's your opinion, why does anyone need to comment on it? Aside from being irrelevant nobody knows what he thinks about it which is the only important thing.

I thought it was a good general point that was made and I thought it was strange nobody followed up. It seemed to get avoided for some reason.

 

I commented on it because I have a problem with society trying to tell people what they should do with their lives, and when I see someone in a forum doing it, I'll call them out on it. You've spent six posts here talking about the Dolph thing. A lot more than anyone else has, actually. Would you like to talk about Dolph some more?

 

Right, and in my opinion Dolph is doing just fine and doesn't need the Unity Forum's blessings to make decisions about his life... which I said... what's your point?

Honestly I didn't because I thought the post was just kind of interesting (I had no idea Dolph had a scholarship to MIT) and it was funny, so like... cool. If something's funny, you let things slide.

 

I was more interested in the general point that was made about people wasting their time. I also have a problem with society telling people what to do, but nobody here is doing that are they? @I am da bawss was simply making an example to illustrate the point, he's not trying to tell anyone what to do, from what I saw he simply wanted to show that perhaps some people would be better off doing what they are good at. It's a relevant point.

@frosted I'm not trying to say anything about your opinion, it's factually correct by any account. I just thought that people treated the original comment too harshly and read stuff into it that wasn't there.

Anyway, that's all I wanted to say, you said people were 'pointing fingers' but commenting on how good an actor is hardly warrants getting worked up, people do it all the time.

PS I really need to get off the General Forums. I didn't really know they even existed until recently! Like the lyrics of a siren song I read these alluring threads and was trapped!

 

"The guy is famous enough that we all know who he is and people on this board are judging that guy for his life decisions? Dolph did just fine without the Unity Forums deciding his life for him."

I don't think that was a "shots fired" style comment, but hey - I like to argue sometimes.

 

Who are these people you keep mentioning? As far as I know, I'm the only one who made a big deal about the post. If you want to call me out, call me out. I'm a big girl.

And now here we are and you're on your seventh post concerning Dolph-gate and I'm on my third. Fancy that.

 

Lol you said that 4/5 posts were 'finger-pointing' which I don't think was the intention, if anything da Bawss seemed to respect his talent. The thread has been occupied with 'Dolph-gate' since that comment, and I thought perhaps it was telling that nobody wanted to talk about the underlying point, and everyone got hot and bothered about whether da Bawss was trying to tell Dolph what to do.

Considering the thread was about whether most developers should quit or not, it seems relevant to discuss whether or not said developers might be better off doing something else. It's not a personal thread, we're just having a discussion in general. Nobody's considering enforcing the outcome!

 

I was responding to you saying that I missed the point. Cuz like, I didn't, and I hate it when people think I missed the point, just because they missed mine

Frosted watches as Dolph-gate spirals out of control.

 

Lol ok, I'm sick of it! I just think it's cool to discuss whether or not people would not be more satisfied in other endeavours, and only are doing this because of how easy and 'cool-looking' the job appears to be!

 

ITT, a bunch of people thought that making video games would be easy.
- Turns out it's not.
- They make up justifications that avoid the issue of "i thought it was going to be easy and it's really hard"
- They project their feelings onto others, ergo, title: "the majority of developers should quit game development"

I didn't really post much because I get that people need to vent and blow off steam. But like, yucky thread.

But somehow, here I am knee deep in Dolph-Gate. I need to stop spending so much time on these boards.

 

That's it. Everybody out of the pool!

 

Probably because the underlying point made no sense and doesn't need to be argued. It's like a parent telling their kid they need to be a lawyer and get a good job but the kid goes and becomes a crappy artist. So what, worry about yourself the world will sort itself out there are plenty of people doing different occupations.

This thread has definitely put an end to my recent forum spree though, makes me feel dumber just participating in it.

 

Not only that but like not every kid who goes to MIT is going to cure cancer. Trust me, I worked with a bunch of them. Dolph probably would have gone into finance or something and just helped make rich guys richer and the world sadder.

At least he gave us Rocky IV.

 

let's not forget he was in a Bond movie, A View to a Kill along with grace jones and christopher walken. I would pretty much consider my entire career worth it at that point.

 

You really do, since I checked in on this thread this morning I've blocked out quarter of scene.

@Billy4184

Seriously what's the point in all of this? If you want to make games, go ahead.. You think this thread will have some hidden inner meaning? You can discuss this until the cows come home, but it'll not make any difference.. Just do it (tm)..

 

Actually I, and it seems a few other people too, found the thread interesting. It may be projection but @Master Frog was willing to talk in detail about his opinions which is all anyone can ask. I actually agree with him, not in the sense that somebody should tell everyone to quit, but that it would be in a lot of people's interests to not waste their time trying to do this difficult and costly endeavour on some kind of whim or because they don't want to deal with society and its issues. And it is often a whim, as you can see by the oft naive posts about making an MMO or whatever. You can see these people think it's easy and simple. The actual life of a developer is not what they are looking for.

@tiggus the point was not about whether anyone should tell another person what to do, it was simply about whether or not some people would be better off doing something else, you know, in a general way, like? The example chosen was far enough out of this forum to be utterly irrelevant.

If you've got a friend who you think is wasting their life at something, you'd be a pretty useless friend if you didn't even broach the subject ... so bringing up the topic is not inherently negative or nasty, it's just a relevant observation and not even a personal comment at anyone in particular here.

Stuff is too personal here, I though this was a public forum but I feel like I'm a deathly ghost wandering around in the basements of a hundred other people. Time to do something else for a while!

 

Booooo-oooooo LOL! That's funny. It's all just a speck of sand in the grand scheme of things. It will be cool to see your first thread about your game. Good luck!

 

I'm also gonna take a break. Forum addiction is a hard habit to break...

It's just always there, a keystroke away. Waiting... lurking... "what am I supposed to do while this compiles?" ... the hand goes to the browser location bar... f...o...r...u....

No. Not this time internet forum addiction!

 

Yeah I get burnt out on the forums too. Take a mini break for a day or two then end up wondering if anything interesting has been posted and back again. I need to get in the habit of only checking in on weekends I think. That might work well. Alright off I go to work on my current project.... for at least an hour or so.

 

You could always do what I do and only come in when you feel like stirring up trouble.

 

Cool, so how much further you got with your game because of it? Ohh wait.!

 

But I stir daily :/

 

The majority of people developing games right now should quit, in my opinion.

The question that must be answered—the question each of us can only answer for ourselves—is this: are you part of that majority?

Your answer will not be in words, but in deeds. It is by the legacy of your work that you will be judged, measured, weighed.

We have all started down this path, already. That can not be undone.

Here is the truest test—if you can quit, if you can walk away and do not find the urge to return so powerful that even after 2, 5, 10 years you find yourself drawn back to this—then you were never meant to do this in the first place.

I have thrown off the mantle again and again, tried burning it, burying it, leaving it in one place and traveling to the furthest parts of the Earth—I have tried swearing it off and hoping that people will hold me to it. I have tried everything I can think of, but I have always been and will always be interested in the pointless, childish, immature and silly art that is video games.

Even if I say "I quit", my heart will betray my better judgement.

And now I'm sad for me.

 

Problem is most people need a mentor, a sensei, a master Splinter or just to work in a professional established environment before they tackle their own personal games.

Without that most will probably lack the discipline, the idea of how to 'put it all together', and especially how to layout and plan their work in order to give them a desired outcome. (Not to mention the monetization side of things if you wanna make a living out of it or invest in your next project)

So things just dont get done, you lose motivation and abandon project after project. Years go by and eventually you've had enough.

I pasted some quotes earlier, different quotes would speak to different peoples shortcoming as developers. We all do somethings right, somethings wrong. Sometimes, to speed your personal development along, you need someone to show you what you are missing.

TLDR
- Most people lack a disciplined and structured approach
- Most don't take the time or have the opportunity to learn from those who have already gone through the motions
- Because of the above, they will feel the time invested bares too little fruit to justify and then quit

 

I mean, man, why make it so complicated.

I have these ideas which I want to see realized, so that's what I'm doing.
Since no one else are going to do my ideas for me I guess.

 

If you (anyone) wants to make a game then make it. I must admit it used to drive me crazy that ao many people came into game dev via Unity, knocked out a Flappy Bird clone, random geometric tapper etc and then immediately published it on mobile. Just because it made no sense to me how any good could come from that.

The only thing I could see coming out of it would be helping to quickly bump a great game off the New Releases page. And didn't make sense why someone would think their first game ever in their life made in a month would be worth putting on the market. Throwing it up on their website or one of the web game portals sure. But not immediately spending time putting monetization in it and publishing to the app stores.

But actually I don't even care about that any more. As in of right now. I guess in a way this why Unity exists. To democratize game dev. AKA To flood the markets with newbie games. And so if people want to do that then so be it. It's just another reason why the mobile market is seen as a sort of amateur hour. But there is nothing wrong with that.

But heck it is a very enjoyable hobby. I can definitely understand anyone enjoying making games just for the fun and challenge of it.

 

Every art form has a great deal of "noise"—if you want your stuff to be noticed, it has to be good. Nobody is saying you have to be great, but at least good. And sadly, most of the "noise" is not very good. This is not to say that people need to make bigger games, or more original games, or find something "nobody else has ever done before"—no, nothing like that.

Go binge watch some of those three judge panel singing shows. Notice how many people are technically "singers" but how few actually are pleasant to listen to. Ignore the "winner/loser" aspect of the show. It's the same with bands, writers, artists, actors, cake bakers—some people lack discipline, fail to master the basics, don't study theory and let their ego take the reins and move on to the more superficial aspects of their chosen craft too early. As they continue to try to express their "gift" or their "unique vision" they are consistently undercut by low-level errors and rookie mistakes and as such, they cannot even reach the level of "good"—even if they began with a good deal of talent.

The keys to failure are then:
1) Having confidence in your talent.
2) Believing in your vision.
3) Working harder than anyone else.

The keys to success are then:
1) Not overplaying your hand, knowing your limits.
2) Humbly respecting the accomplishments of others and learning from them.
3) Working smarter than anyone else... mastering the basics, studying theory, pacing yourself so you don't encounter burn out.

I have noticed that the best of the best are more often than not soft-spoken and really just normal guys, they don't see themselves as "special". When people ask them lots of questions about the "secrets" the answer is usually... there are no secrets. Ego is really just an anchor that is wrapped around your neck.

This is what I see now when I hear people saying things that sound like Uzemaki Naruto quotes... "I never give up!" "Can't was killed in the battle of try!" "Anything is possible if you just believe!"

I wish all that were true. But it ain't. At least, it's not the full truth.

Yes, you do need to believe you can do something to do it. You can't finish if you give up. We have all been force fed that platitudinous, sycophantic drivel for virtually our entire lives. However, what is omitted is the more important aspect. Probably because people don't like to hear it and it doesn't sell very well.

You need to believe in yourself, you need to work hard and have confidence... and that manifests itself through long periods of arduous tasks requiring patience, self-control and discipline. There is always some kind of pain or discomfort associated with bettering yourself, no matter what craft you choose, there will be times when you wish you were doing anything else. And those times are not rare, they may come several times per day. It takes a certain degree of mental toughness to persist long enough to develop good skills. It takes a certain level of humility to accept that you are not going to be the world's best, and that you may only end up being average. It takes conviction. It takes character.

...and that is why the majority should quit. And it is why they won't. Because even admitting that you're just not very good at something requires humility and strong character. It's more likely to see someone blaming their computer, or blaming the community, or blaming their tools or blaming the marketplace.

I kind of see where I was in error... assuming that people are going to drop game development and go do something good in the world is wrong. If they couldn't do this, they would just be half-assing something else and ruining someone else's day.

It's just your cross to bear if you plan on being a good game developer, that you have to somehow find a way to rise above the noise. It's not impossible, although... it may be almost impossible. And that's just a choice everyone has to make for themselves if its worth it or not.

For now, I don't hope to become successful or famous. I'm just not that good. But I also think that I could become good, I just lack the conviction to put in the time and try. And that's the truth.

 

In my opinion, to be good at something like singing, acting, or game development, you need to have an oversized ego, it's as simple as that. But the key is that your ego, while egoistic, is not silly or delusional.

There's a world of difference between someone who says "I can be good at anything I want to" and then proceeds to apply intelligence, hard work, patience and the willingness to learn from mistakes - and someone who says "I can be good at anything I want to - because I'm simply the greatest snowflake that ever was". Both are egoists, but one has a chance of succeeding, and the other not.

 

spot on.

 

I don't know really. I think what both of you said makes sense. And yet no one way really fits all cases. In my life I have seen a few people "make it via a never give up work hard long days approach" and I have seen many fail to reach their goals with that approach... in a number of years... and just give up. There is always the possibility they may have reached a "tipping point" if they had kept going. Yet I also understand after years of hard work and not seeing any real results a person needs to reassess and ask is this really worth it?

I've also seen people who aren't very skilled (well in what I'd call real skills) and were always looking for the easiest way projecting an aura of laziness... who opportunities seemed to just fall in their lap. And even then they didn't always take them. Depended on the amount of effort. And yet many times those people succeeded. Seemingly as much, perhaps a bit more, than people using the opposite approach.

I think it is because they had strong skills that few people were looking at. Like how to deal with people. How to get folks to like them and believe in them. In fact, a lot of folks who are business owners and managers are this way. It's common to end up working for someone who has about 1/10th the skills you do in the area of your job. And not uncommon to also know that you know more than the owner / manager. The difference is what they do know.... is just more important. They know how to get the job as a manager. They know how to get support and start a business. They hire people to take care of all of the skilled labor stuff.

Basically I think there are multiple paths to success. Just need to find the one that is right for you. And for each person I mean. What is right for me may be the opposite of someone else.

 

Now you're speaking truth.

These are hard, sometimes painful things to admit. They're also the best things you can ever say if you really want to learn, improve and some day become that good.

Respect.

 

The crux of the matter is do or don't "do".. The reasoning behind it is really for you and you alone to figure out, for me this is an obsession, like a vinyl record stuck on a spindle constantly spinning in my mind envisioning how I want it to play out..

On the blaming the "tools" bit, that's the only thing I can't stand about game development, I'm happy to do the 14 hour slogs but I've come across project breaking issues too many times (which I had no control over). So I can blame my tools, but it should never stop you from reaching your goals.. There is always another path and today it's better than it ever has been, if a game engine is the problem, fine I'll use another one. If the art tools are an issue, not a problem I'll use something else.

It's frustrating though and / or soul destroying when you put a lot of time and effort into something just to start again. I'm in the niche for "indie" though, so that's probably not applicable to many.

I don't believe it's impossible, end of the day most decent games that have had a lot of care and attention over the course of years gets a lot of press and they generally do well. For all the negatives the noise made, the jewel in the rough shines brighter than it ever did.

 

I agree , some engines are better on some fields than others. Take the right tool.

+1.

 

I think this is what it comes down to, if being 'humble' and praying to the god of game development floats your boat - and your game - then good for you. We've all got different personalities.

 

Good luck. Hope reality doesn't beat the humility into you.

When should we start the clock on your "in 3 months I will release my mobile game and make $250/mo on it"?

 

Good luck @Billy4184 You can do it man. $250 per month is only about $8 per day. Averaging less than 35 cents per hour around the clock. Seems like it should be very easy to hit that, right?!

@frosted of course you do realize he may just be one of the exceptions who makes a mobile game, puts it out on the market and posts screenshots showing "there guys... first month income $289. Was that so hard?!"

 

I'm rooting for him man. $250 is not a crazy target to hit, it's totally possible.

I just honestly want him to stop writing posts and start working... his endless willingness to post messages might start being useful once he has something to actually talk about.

 

It will be started in the next week or so, as soon as I upload the space combat kit to the store. I'll even open a thread with regular updates, just for you guys