Search Unity

The "Find Out Yourself" Atmosphere

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by MahaloAloha, Jan 9, 2021.

  1. MahaloAloha

    MahaloAloha

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    Hey guys.

    First post on here. Long-time C# scripter and year-long indie Unity dev (I mainly script for other person's projects, freelance).

    This may seem like a poor way to start off my presence in the forums - but this discussion is precisely the reason I'm here within the forums at this moment.

    I've had a few issues with the general atmosphere I see here that I don't see in any other collaborative/Q&A format that StackOverflow, ITFreaks, and a few other websites have had:
    And that is, simply, a lack of collaborative correction or any informative input from older users to newer users.

    More often than not I've popped in a problem I've had with Unity-specific scripting to try to save time, and more often than not I've found the majority of the answers are "watch the tutorials" or the more Socratic method of pointing out the error and then suggesting that they look further into the manual or manuscripts.
    I'm all for telling new people to review tutorials and other info;
    When someone has clearly posted a long piece of code that they are having an issue with, I believe more than half the thread needs to be referencing some tutorial or some inquisitive question encouraging them to find the issue themselves - rather than a quick reminder or other quick-fixes that they were asking about, along with a one-to-two line explanation of where they went wrong.

    UNITY is an engine with complexities that may even phase the tutorial guys, or with terminology that may make someone jumping in from a decent knowledge of working with C# may not understand the difference (despite tutorials and the infinite manual pages).

    What was I hoping to achieve with this? I don't know - maybe to subject the userbase here to what persons outside encounter when they, too, are looking for an answer. With or without any previous posting history, I shouldn't feel more comfortable or insightful asking a question on StackOverflow regarding UNITY than the actual forums full of devs, coders, and armchair enthusiasts alike with decades of engine experience between them.
     
  2. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    How should I put it. You're receiving responses from unpaid people who owe you nothing.

    They are not required to answer your questions or help you in any way. The folks on the forum have their own projects and dealt with their own troubles in the past. You're not in position to demand anything. Aside from politeness and civil behavior, that is.

    They should either reduce it to minimum self-contained example that illustrates the problem they're having ( http://sscce.org/ )
    Or they should reach out for the wallet and hire someone on hourly basis to look into it.

    The main issue is that looking through a lengthy code fragment is not INTERESTING.
    Why should someone bother doing that when you can figure out solution on your own by reading documentation and in the long this will help you more?

    Basically, a lengthy code fragment may require 30 to 60 minutes to make sense out of it and pinpoint an issue. That's 30 to 60 minutes that could've been spent doing somethin else, and responder will receive nothing for assisting you. Not even a feeling of satisfaction.

    Why should they bother?

    ------

    A normal practice in computer programming is to solve problems yourself. By reading the documentation. Because when you rely on some sort of online community for help, the community will let you down when you hit a non-trivial problem.
     
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  3. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Basically, long story short.

    The best thing you can do while dealing with an issue is to solve it yourself, because in doing so you'll learn more and it will help you in the long term.

    If your issue needs solution URGENLY then you need to hire someone to look into it, and pay them.

    If it is not so urgent and you rely on help from unpaid volunteers it is yoru job to make it short so other people won't need to spend inordinate amount of time to look into it (reduce it to the bare minimum as I said), and if your problem is interesting chances of getting help will be higher.

    In general like I said, in case of problems in programming you're usually on your own. Communities tend to stop being helpful once you're no longer dealing with beginner questions.
     
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  4. MahaloAloha

    MahaloAloha

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    Just a reminder: I do work in the field and know that most programming questions asked are simple errors or terminology misuse... but that is exactly the point.

    It's this very climate that I'm talking about.

    No, a person asking a question does not deserve to be answered; When people are answering their questions they are taking their time they dedicated to answering with "rewatch the tutorials" or - even then - attempting to GUIDE them to read the manual deeper. Which, in itself, is a separate skill all it's own.
    Or, worst: "Pay a Pro."
    Someone with the money to pay a pro for non-pro work wouldn't be using free resources.

    I have learned Unity entirely from chewing through the manual for hours on end in an attempt to add it to my repertoire. Some details contained within the manual itself are worded so precisely, or undifferentiated between other, similar functions, that even a literature aficionado may still find confusing.

    But we revert back to the original problem - in a field where I specifically know almost everyone and their mother's mother uses StackOverflow, it's a bit hypocritical to emphasize "find out for yourself," "RTFM," and "pay a pro to look it over" with such a specialized engine.
     
  5. Antypodish

    Antypodish

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    @unity_5JJLlb_MfGK1ZQ hi and welcome.

    You see, stack overflow and alike, work a bit differently than forums.
    Here we can not downvote questions for low qualit.
    On stack overflow, it is not uncommon, to see closures to low quality questions, with messages alike
    Here most beginner questions are not tend to be closed. And there are tons of duplicated asked, where many answers are in reach of simple search.

    As already mentioned, most of users here are voluntarily. They value own time. Now if you consider sheer volume of posts every day and expecting all of them to be answered by devs, or answered them ASAP, as some may deamnd, this is wrong assumptions. However, better than leaving post empty, is even however it sounds, suggesting to go tutorials, docs, or other links. Or look for existing answers. Copy pasting code from somewhere, which person doesn't understand and expecting someone to fix it for them, is also wrong.

    People need to learn about problem solving. Give them fishing rod, rather a fish.
    Even teaching about using search tools, or debugging methods, may be more valuable, than fixing one line for someone.

    But in a contrast, please look into any section of stackoverflow as an example and check every post of first 100 pages.
    That is only from few hours back. Most of them are not even responded yet. And many are downvoted.
    Giving that, it is not that different from another forum.

    Let me ask honestly. How long you are lurking here? From what you describe, it sounds for quite long time.
    It would be worth to question, why don't you come and participate in answering users posts, to improve general user experience? Answering this question, may also answer your initial concerns on the topic.

    But since you are with us now, I hope you are to stay and to contribute to overall users forum experience.
     
  6. MahaloAloha

    MahaloAloha

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    I've been here for a while and I decided to finally say something about the general atmosphere, and why it seemed that StackOverflow seemed to be the primary Q&A spot for this specific engine when there's an entire forum full of people with this specific engine on-hand, on the main website of this specific engine.

    I do hope to. But the idea is that the atmosphere dictates the expected interactions (see: 4chan). I answer questions on StackOverflow regarding C# and java (because having a dope-ass StackOverflow account is a good resume perk) ...
    AS SOON AS an admin gets back to me about fixing my damn user handle. It's failing to update.
     
  7. Neto_Kokku

    Neto_Kokku

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    Be aware that places like StackOverflow have very strict requirements for making questions. The kinds of questions you exemplified, and the ones which often get the "go watch some tutorials" replies here, are promptly deleted over there as they are considered low effort/quality questions.
     
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  8. EternalAmbiguity

    EternalAmbiguity

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    You should give examples of threads you think deserve specific answers rather than general suggestions.
     
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  9. Voronoi

    Voronoi

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    StackOverflow excels at answering very targeted and specific questions, which is what you seem to be asking the forums to do. The engine itself is a bit messier than that, often a problem is interrelated to code, hooking things up in the Editor or maybe even game mechanics or UI. Add in the various rendering pipelines and target devices, that makes discussions even more fragmented.

    As such, I think the forum is a good place to deal with all that messiness and more or less get an answer to a not so simple question. Add in a bit of gossip and game design advice and this is very much NOT like StackOverflow.

    I wouldn't want or expect the forums here to be much like StackOverflow or Discord for that matter.
     
  10. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    If you haven't mentioned that you watched tutorials, then the default assumption is that you haven't watched them hence the suggestion.

    Offering paid services, as far as I know, is forbidden on the forums, but, if you haven't said anything about considering hiring someone to solve your problem, then default assumption is that such idea has not occurred to you.

    It is the business as usual. If you haven't mentioned something, then people have to assume the worst.

    I would advise to stop using StackOverflow too. It is a bad habit.

    SO used to be good around 2008. Then the community became hostile, and because of that it became useless.
     
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  11. MahaloAloha

    MahaloAloha

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    I mean, to get to the point of using UNITY enough to ask questions on a forum, one would assume that they clicked through adverts on the main site. Though, I am BEGINNING to see the trend between those who don't know a single thing about Unity asking about how to use Unity, there's still been a few instances where I've found that people were clearly asking questions with coding and were scrubbed to "check out the Tutorial"


    I mean, it's still one of the most useful resources for quickly referencing errors and getting feedback with other solutions in ways you probably couldn't initially perceive. But that's another thread.
     
  12. kburkhart84

    kburkhart84

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    Basically....."if you give a man a fish, he eats for a day...but if you teach him to fish, He eats every day."

    Programming and game development are very much self-taught disciplines. I generally see perfectly acceptable answers to well written questions. Sure, some of those involve tutorials, and some involve looking in the manual. But a lot of the time someone comes that doesn't know what they are looking for(like not knowing the technical name for something), so these are perfect answers for that. They let someone know what the search term should be, and then they can proceed to figure out the rest on their own with that missing link.
     
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  13. MahaloAloha

    MahaloAloha

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    Off Topic:
    Since this is my first post, who do I talk to in order to change my Forum Name to match my Community/Account name?

    So I can shoot them a PM.
     
  14. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Nope.

    People that fail to locate manual and script reference are incredibly common. Like I said, assume the worst. That they never foudn the manual, never found the script reference, successfully located the worst tutorial in existence, and copypasted the code from there without understanding, but only copied half of it, so now it doesn't compile and they don't understand why because it is the first time they opened programming environment in their life.

    Or something like that.

    On any learning resource/forum there's always a legion of people that ask questions without doing any research in advance. If you've used the internet for a while, you should be familiar with that.

    It is only useful when you hit it with a google search. Asking questions there is a bad idea, as you'll waste inordinate time fighting rule lawyers and people who didn't pay attention to your question, but are absolutely sure that they know what you meant and will keep trying to merge your question with completely unrelated ones.

    The only exception is if you're programming in something obscure on the level of Prolog or APL. In this case your target audience will consist of a single digit number of language enthusiasts who will be delighted to find that someone remembered that their language exists and might enthusiastically share knowledge on a good day.

    Only in this case it retains limited use.

    (Opinion) Overreliance on community resources is going to backfire at some point, as there will be a legion of incompetent programmers who are unable to do any work on their own the old way - with the manual and code - and will sink on non-trivial questions (because there's a ton of stuff folks on SO can't answer). That's why I advise against using stack overflow.
     
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  15. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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  16. MahaloAloha

    MahaloAloha

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  17. EternalAmbiguity

    EternalAmbiguity

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  18. kburkhart84

    kburkhart84

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    This was exactly my thought...directly proves our point of trying to teach people to be self sufficient instead of just handing them answers.
     
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  19. MahaloAloha

    MahaloAloha

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    I think that both of you assumed that the issue wasn't first Googled then tried.

    Now this is the true irony: Both of you are leaning hard on an assumption of ignorance rather than the acceptance of an issue and proactive solutions.
     
  20. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    upload_2021-1-10_1-30-9.png

    You appear to be trying to "get back" at people who responded to your thread.
    That's not the way to do it and also discourages people from helping you in the future.
     
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  21. BIGTIMEMASTER

    BIGTIMEMASTER

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    It's simple. If somebody ask a question that I found an answer too easily on my own in the past, they get told vaguely where to go look.

    If somebody ask a question that was hard for me to figure out in the past I'll explain where I found the answer.

    If somebody ask a question I don't know the answer to I'll suggest something that might help them figure it out.

    Not gonna spend 30 minutes trying to solve somebody elses problem via troubleshooting.

    It's not "Find out yourself". It's don't be lazy. I think maybe you underestimate the power of people pointing newbies in right direction. It can be a real life saver. Somebody else troubleshooting for you isn't doing anybody a favor. Seeking others free help for "fast answers" isn't cool, man.
     
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  22. MahaloAloha

    MahaloAloha

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    Your instruction didn't fix the issue that I had Googled in the first place and changed my name. It was my logging in and out of my connected accounts - multiple times - that allowed it to happen.

    Your LMGTFY approach was childish and is part of the atmosphere that has previously held back from participating in this forum. The first thing I did was change my Handle, but it didn't take after multiple logoff/logins and now here we are with you thinking that you did something significant or clever by pulling out Google as a resource instead of contributing proactively, and me thinking you're lesser for believing your Google Search Result contributed in any form to the actions I took to fix it.
     
  23. kburkhart84

    kburkhart84

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    Cool, so you didn't provide information at all on what was previously tried?! How do you expect us to not assume you didn't try google if you didn't say that and only asked how to do the thing with no more information?! We can only help with the information provided by the person asking the question.
     
  24. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    My response to these posts is always “be the change you want to see”.

    There is nothing stopping you going into scripting and doing detailed code analysis on posts and providing customised feedback.

    You can rail against the existing users as much as you like. Nothing will change. I’m a volunteer. I’m not changing my approach for some random noob account with 13 posts that signed up today.

    Come back in three months with a couple hundred posts and say “this is what I did in scripting, and the approach really worked, maybe you can try it too.” Then I’ll be all ears and probably listen.

    Trying to fix the forums without first participating in the forums is a fools game.
     
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  25. Vryken

    Vryken

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    It really depends on what kind of question is being asked.

    If it's a specific use-case that has only one or a few possible answers, then a direct solution is a feasible response.
    For instance, "How do I find all GameObjects within a radius that have the 'Banana' tag?"
    It's a simple question for a specific use-case; easy to answer it with a possible solution:
    Code (CSharp):
    1. public List<GameObject> GetObjectsInRadiusWithTag(Vector3 origin, float radius, string tag) {
    2.    Collider[] hitColliders Physics.OverlapSphere(origin, radius);
    3.    List<GameObject> results = new List<GameObject>(hitColliders.Length);
    4.  
    5.    for(int i = 0; i < hitColliders.Length; i++) {
    6.       GameObject hitObject = hitColliders[i].gameObject;
    7.  
    8.       if(hitObject.CompareTag(tag)) {
    9.          results.Add(hitObject);
    10.       }
    11.    }
    12.  
    13.    return results;
    14. }
    Code (CSharp):
    1. //Example
    2. List<GameObject> objects = GetObjectsInRadiusWithTag(transform.position, 50f, "Banana");
    But a lot of the times, especially with people who are new to the environment, they tend to ask very broad questions that could have hundreds or thousands of possible answers and/or wouldn't be able to be solved with one simple response:
    • "How do I make a game similar to this other game"
      • Like any software, games have hundreds or even thousands of features from big to small. Can't really give a concreate answer to this without knowing exactly which features you need help with, and if the answer to that question is "all of them", then trying to find a tutorial on the subject sounds like a reasonable solution.
    • "How do I make the player 'cast a magic spell' (or some other action)?"
      • A bit better, but still too broad. The concept of "magic" is completely abstract and can be implemented in pretty much any way, shape, or form. On the functional-side of things, the action of "casting a magic spell" can also depend wildly on what genre the game is. It could be a simple button press in an action game, or by combining a specific set of cards in a card game. We don't know how "magic" exists in your game's world, or how "casting a magic spell" functions gameplay-wise.
    • "I wrote this script to do (a large number of things), but it's not working."
      • "It's not working" doesn't really help with providing a solution. What is the script supposed to do specifically & what is it currently doing? Are there any error messages? What debugging steps have you already tried? Does the script depend on any external factors to function properly? Etc.
    Often, it would be more beneficial for the user to learn how to solve the smaller things on their own.
    Probably the most common question asked here has to do with
    NullReferenceException
    s, and that's one of those things where if you don't know what it means or what causes it, you're going to keep running into it again & again without understanding how to prevent it from happening or fix it when it does happen.

    Then it just leads to an endless back-and-fourth between asking people to fix the error, getting the error again, asking people to fix the error again, getting the error again, asking people to fix the error again, etc.

    To summarize, it's easy to provide concrete answers when questions are about small specific features for specific use-cases, but broad questions can't be answered in the same way. If the problem is encompassing a large number of concepts, try to break it down into smaller, simpler problems. It's easier to ask for help on them, and it's easier to get help on them.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2021
  26. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    Quite often folks post a chunk of code with no comments and a thread title "doesn't work". Or they ask how to fix a null ref or syntax error when usually errors tell you exactly what the problem is. Or they will list problems that do not remotely contain enough information to provide a useful answer. This very, very common, often the majority of questions. Lots of passersby. Folks who one day downloaded Unity, spent a few minutes with, got stuck, posted a question that literally would be answered by any beginner video and never return. If their post is way too lazy it is deleted and "low-effort" as prohibited by the rules.

    As a community, we definitely should not be rude, especially to newcomers, but very simple reality is that making games is a complex process. No matter how good the engine, tools, docs or resources. Making games is Hard™. Coding, engine apis, tools, even art are all skills that you can practice and learn. But basic problem solving is something you need to bring to the table to start with. No tutorial or person on this forum can teach you critical thinking. If you cannot figure out basic solutions, especially ones that have been asked a million times then making games is not for you. It's that simple.

    That said, this place is amazing for extending knowledge, learning Unity specific stuff and creative solutions. It is easy to tunnel vision and not see alternate solutions, or need to ask questions outside your normal sphere of knowledge or discuss engine specifics or quirks. There are tons of things that are learned and shared here that aren't found elsewhere, tons of knowledge that is available here, and folks that very happy to share and/or explore with you.
     
  27. Billy4184

    Billy4184

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    I agree with you in some instances that I've seen. It's much more fun to respond to a thread with an air of exasperated authority, telling someone how to fix their attitude, than it is to actually answer a technical question.
    ..
    But that's quite few and far between. The fact is that most questions are simply an attempt to shortcut learning. And since developing a game is a difficult thing for many reasons, something which many people at all levels of knowledge are well aware of, seeing anyone try to shortcut learning, especially by taking up someones time, is annoying at best.

    There are a few things you can do to help things along:
    • Show what you've tried, and what was the result! There's nothing that makes someone want to help more than seeing another person trying very hard, rather than waiting around to be gifted the answer, or even worse developing a victim mentality and hitting out at the people they could benefit most from. Personally, I will help anyone who shows enough investment, simply because for me the will to make things happen, no matter how difficult, is the best quality someone can have.
      In your question about renaming, I didn't see any indication that you'd tried anything at all.
    • Be polite and enthusiastic. Make people feel good for helping you, and show them that whatever they give you will be put to the best possible use. There are so many threads where someone asks a question, an experienced user makes a great response, and they don't even get a reply or a like. They might as well have been talking to a bot that was decommissioned the next day. Fortunately replies can help others for a long time afterward, but it's still cause for hesitation.
    • Give back by posting the answer to your question in a way that others can benefit from. There are a LOT of questions where someone posts "how do I do X?", either gets an answer or doesn't but after some time says "EDIT: solved my problem!". Then in come others with similar issues, asking how they did it, and all they get is crickets.
      Over the years I've asked a number of questions that I've gotten help with, and the first thing I've done is not only posted the solution, but also gone to all the other threads asking the same thing and posted my solution there.
    A lot of people don't seem to realize that passing on knowledge is one of the most enjoyable things for the majority of people, especially those who have spent years developing their own, but they simply don't know how to ask in a way that makes them want to help. Which is a shame, because it's usually not very complicated.

    So my suggestion would be to ask yourself next time, what am I going to put in my post to make someone want to help me?
     
  28. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    ...

    My picture included the search query. That search query is information that you can use to improve your information gathering skills.
    Look at the query, compare it with yours, find the differences. Then you won't need to ask the question the next time.

    Let me break this down.

    * I provided the answer to your question.
    * I demonstrated HOW I found that answer.
    * Given the information I provided you can both solve your problem and analyze why your query was wrong and by doing so learn how to find the information more efficiently, so in the future you'll be less likely to need help.

    And for that, you called me childish, and brought up LMGTFY which I didn't even use.

    That's not how you ask for assistance.
     
  29. N1warhead

    N1warhead

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    Good Grief this thread is a mess.
     
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  30. bobisgod234

    bobisgod234

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    Of course we assumed that. Why wouldn't we?

    I suggest taking Kiwasi's advice and helping out over in the scripting section. I think you will quickly find out first-hand why people assume things like that.

    I also suggest reading this: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html. This will hopefully shed some light on how these kinds of communities work, and how you can make the most of them.
     
  31. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    None of this is unique to Unity or game development. Despite working with C# for ages now I wouldn't consider myself a .NET developer, because that environment has plenty of its own stuff going on aside from having a language in common. The context is different. Same deal with web app development, or if I were to get into non-game mobile apps, or big data systems, and so on and so forth.

    I'm sure I could pick up any of those and get productive fairly quickly if required, but it would require deliberate learning. The same deal applies to anyone coming from other areas into game development and/or Unity.

    Please note that being able to make a tutorial does not make you an expert. Even professional tutors at universities and such are often learning as they go, and not necessary especially far ahead of the people they're teaching.

    Indeed, in my early days of using Unity I came here and helped other people not because I was an expert, but because by exposing myself to other peoples' problems and solving them it helped me to learn more, faster.
     
  32. BaBiAGameStudio

    BaBiAGameStudio

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    Or my favourites:
    1. The title is just the C# error codes (CS2046, etc) and then no reference to the line numbers or the actual error text that goes with the code.
    2. Along with #1 is usually the posting of code completely unformatted and not using the code tags.
    3. The post that states "I have followed the tutorial EXACTLY and it doesn't work for me, but it works for the guy who created the tutorial video", but they have actually mistyped at least one line of code.
    4. People not properly capitalising their code as they seem to be completely unaware that in C# capitalisation matters.

    In these instances a lot of the replies have to be either "give us more info as we don't memorise the error codes", or "here is your mistake, I would recommend you look at the manual for those methods and also make sure to recheck the tutorial".
     
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  33. MadeFromPolygons

    MadeFromPolygons

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    I basically echo what has already been said here:

    StackOverflow and Unity Forums are completely different, one is a Q&A site the other is a forum.

    The forum is for discussion primarily, and yes people may also ask and answer questions but it is not its primary focus.

    Secondly, without a way to upvote/ downvote answers and the like, its not really worth comparing the two at all because naturally that alone will lead to very different experiences.

    So all in all if your question is "why is this not a problem at stackoverflow but it is here?" then the answer is "because they are completely different".

    Apples to oranges as they say :)
     
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  34. MahaloAloha

    MahaloAloha

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    I concede. I'll try to remain active on here as much as possible to aid in C# scripting and, hopefully, be able to understand UNITY well enough to iterate a full project on my own.

    Feel free to lock the thread.
     
  35. MahaloAloha

    MahaloAloha

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    This is the most helpful post in here as it's the experience I am currently having.

    But, just a sidenote: I wasn't calling the TUTORIAL CREATORS "experts" - the meaning was "Even an Expert [in some IT field] may not be able to follow along with the tutorials." Specifically for the reason you just stated: "Making a Tutorial doesn't make you an expert."

    In fact I've only found a SINGLE YouTube channel that makes a concerted effort to differentiate between the different forms of functions (ie. Movement and Time - the two most versatile functions required in principle Unity editing).
     
  36. MadeFromPolygons

    MadeFromPolygons

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    Have you gone through this in its entirety: https://learn.unity.com/course/create-with-code ?


    Regardless of how experienced a developer you are, you should do the entirety of that and by the end you will have no problems getting to grips with unity just using the documentation. Not enough new people come and actually try fully featured unity official courses like this before asking questions, and thats why you see low quality responses to the low quality or low effort questions.

    I know you dont want to hear "do a tutorial" but until you go through the entirety of this, you will struggle to get answers that are much more than that as most of the questions will be answered by simply following this from beginning to end.

    Good luck and I hope it helps! That is the most comprehensive intro to unity I have seen, and I send it to everyone who is new to unity and asking questions - I have yet to have someone come back after completing it who has not been able to then solve their original issues on their own :)
     
  37. MahaloAloha

    MahaloAloha

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    Thank you for the kindness - but I have reviewed the documents and chewed through the manual myself. I wasn't speaking towards anything directed at me, per se, but from reading responses to other user questions I was directed towards after googling any Unity issue.

    This thread was more "the forums look unhelpful from a passive lurker viewpoint."
     
  38. MadeFromPolygons

    MadeFromPolygons

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    That is fair enough :) I think if you stay a regular here for some time, you will end up the same. Nobody starts this way, and we didnt all have some sort of regulars-only convention and say "lets be ****s to everyone who is new and asks the same questions again and again despite threads existing + there being a search function!" but over time, it will end up making you have a similar tone. You will come here for discussion and end up spending a lot of it just answering the same 10 questions worded 1000s of ways that all end up at the same destination.

    Something that I dont think was brought up is that the level of basic effort put into threads here is much lower than anywhere you mentioned, its mostly because unity has a HUGE user base of new users who most of the time avoid all the obvious help that unity attempts to throw at you (like the tutorials that are literally accessible from the hub when launching), and so it is left to the forum to redirect them back to that help - which ends up being "follow the tutorials" etc.

    Too many people download the engine and just dive in and then use the forums to ask for basic help by creating new threads (often in the wrong location too) - this is an issue as you should be searching the forum first (and any forum to be honest, its common practise) and 99% of the time the question exists in an existing thread which is why you get the low effort responses. It does get very tiring and as a regular you end up the ones answering all these, so over time yes its easier to just give short answers and direct them to the existing threads or tutorials.

    Its not all bad, if you look around the different sections there are lots of regulars who ONLY answer newbies questions, but overall its an uphill battle and a line in the sand needs to be drawn, so anything that has been asked tons of times gets shrugged off these days - otherwise the people answering these questions will never get any sleep and they are not paid to do what they do!

    So I am sure everyone has noted the point and it is not a mute one, but I dont think mentioning it is really going to do much because what you are talking about requires a shift in the entire communities mentality, not just the regulars as you make it seem from your discourse on the subject :)
     
  39. Joe-Censored

    Joe-Censored

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    The Unity forums get an inordinate number of low effort threads. One of the more common thread formats is just a title with an error code, and the entire content of the post is just unformatted code - can't even be bothered to write a single sentence.

    There's also a large number of threads where the OP clearly has no interest in actually learning programming. If you actually write anything for them, expect to be inundated with private messages whenever they need another script.

    The people who frequently help others on the forum are tired of this, and typically respond to low effort threads with an equivalent amount of effort in the response. Threads where is looks like the person is really trying, has put some effort into this, but are stuck, often get much more helpful responses.
     
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  40. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Making good learning materials is also its own skill. An expert may not be a good teacher and, depending on what they're teaching, a good teacher may not need to be an expert.

    If even an existing expert in a related field couldn't follow a tutorial then it's just a bad tutorial. Unfortunately there are a lot of those, and the beginners who need them most are least able to spot them.
     
  41. BIGTIMEMASTER

    BIGTIMEMASTER

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    There isnt much money in education, unfortunately. We don't have an economic system that rewards actual value - only attention. So complain all you want about lack of freely available, high quality learning content, but its kind of a shame and insult to those few people who do offer so much value for purely altruistic reasons.
     
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  42. MahaloAloha

    MahaloAloha

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    It reminds me of an old Twain adage:
    Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint.
     
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  43. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    And because of this I am hesitant to say negative things. Alas, it's really important for newbies to know that they can't just trust that all tutorials are good.

    It's also important for people making stuff to know that it's actually not helpful unless they make it good enough. If you make a bad game not many people play it but there's no harm done. If you make learning materials which teach bad habits or lead to misunderstanding you could actually make life harder for people.
     
  44. BIGTIMEMASTER

    BIGTIMEMASTER

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    Yeah my advice for people who learn 3d art through free and cheap sources online like I did is to learn from a variety of teachers and test everything out for yourself.

    Compared to traditional schooling I think it's a much faster and more thorough way to learn. But you have to have a mindset to verify things on your own and not approach tutorials like they are gospel.

    Still, just bitching about the free content out there not being "good enough" just seems like bad attitude to me.
     
  45. FrankenCreations

    FrankenCreations

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    I would like to offer a different perspective. I've had about a years worth of weekends with unity. It's been fun. I've managed to get the project I'm working on up and running well with all of the features I plan to implement in place and doing right. I even have a couple levels completed. I feel like I've gotten over the major learning portion of this initial project and I'm happy with the results. I actually see myself releasing it into the wild in the next year. Before this I had no experience with game engines or c#. I have done some Basic and Pascal in previous decades but that's only helpful in giving me the correct mindset for programming in general.

    I've been on the forum since day one. I've never started a thread to ask a question however I have had many questions answered by said forum. I'm mostly a lurker. I will on rare occasions answer a complete beginner question I feel confident about. What I do more than anything on the forum is read answers to other questions, there are so many after all. I've found it true so far that any question I have has already been answered more times than I care to read. Usually the first five answered questions are enough to help me figure my problem out. The manual does occasionally have good info but its unreliable. I actually find the answers with links to a helpful page in the documentation useful. When I'm stuck on something the first and usually last thing I do is Google it. Sometimes I get a forum answer as a result and sometimes I get a manual page. I rarely get an answer from stack overflow, I dont know why but they just dont come up as relevant to my question.

    I think the "go think for yourself" attitude is a fair and correct one to have. If a person is shown how to do a thing then they can do that thing. If a person is led down the path of figuring things out then they can do anything.
     
  46. MahaloAloha

    MahaloAloha

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    The manual has accurate material but uses highly-specific jargon, and the reference links to other relevant functions don't simplify things in the least.

    In the Navy we had this machine that screamed whenever it lost satellite uplink. One satellite was having issues aboard so we had to recalibrate it by following the manual. The function included MANUALLY HAND-WRITING A COMPLEX FORMULA WITH LONG-DIVISION to sequence the machine, enter the final number in binary by adjusting switches to their binary counterparts with a screwdriver (up 1 down 0), and I still feel like that manual process made more sense than most UNITY reference docs.
     
  47. jamespaterson

    jamespaterson

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    for what its worth I have had two attempts to use unity to make a game. The first attempt (cant remember when but probably around 2015) I dove straight in, couldn't get basic physics to work and gave up after a few hours. The second attempt in 2018 I followed a tutorial end-to-end (https://learn.unity.com/project/space-shooter-tutorial) and stuck with it.
     
  48. FrankenCreations

    FrankenCreations

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    By unreliable I was implying that there are parts that are just missing from documentation completely or not finished out. The information that is there is accurate
     
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  49. MadeFromPolygons

    MadeFromPolygons

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    Thing is I am not sure how much I can see your point, given that I pretty much solely learnt unity via the reference docs. When I was learning there was only one decent tutorial called "survival shooter" that taught the very basics of the overall editor, but from there I was on my own.

    I was never taught unity at university etc, but I now am lead on a big enterprise project and run my own business also all using unity. So I am not entirely sure how difficult it really is to follow the reference and manual - IF you actually did follow a full tutorial end to end.

    I started using unity when I was already a very capable programmer, but that didnt stop me following the most complete multi part tutorial I could find on this website and seeing it through end to end.

    I expect if everyone having issues "deciphering" the unity API, its reference and manual actually followed the Create with Code tutorial I linked above, in the end the manual and reference would suffice for them.

    A lot, if not all of the regulars here have all done this at some point also, and as a result also get by just fine using the reference manual etc. I personally find MSDN reference more difficult to follow than unity reference (despite having university level education on C# but none on unity), but thats just me personally.

    Go and learn it yourself is the only way to get good at unity, and the ref + manual have not stopped a lot people here doing just that :)
     
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  50. FrankenCreations

    FrankenCreations

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    I agree that most people should follow some kind of tutorial when beginning if they have never been involved in any kind of software development or have no clue where to start. I personally do not like or learn efficiently from video tutorials. I read far faster that anyone speaks. I really like good written out tutorials with photos better than anything. But honestly just me personally I did best by diving in and doing the most basic thing I could find just to get the hang of the editor and ignoring tutorials afterwards. I would decide what I wanted to achieve, a specific game mechanism, and then spend all the time I needed figuring it out. At first it was alot of answers leading to more questions but figuring out how to solve the first problem made figuring the next one out easier. The information seemed to add together after every hurdle until I was mostly just looking at documentation for the proper syntax or command word I needed. Long story short I learn better through written word and doing than from trying to follow along in a video.
     
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