The energy situation… and you

Air conditioner easily eats kilowatts of power.
Heating also eats kilowatts of power.
If people cook on electric stove that's few more kilowatts of power.
If the house uses water heater to get hot water(and is not supplied with hot water from external source), that's few more kilowatts of power.

Now, cooking and hot water do not run all the time, but air conditioning and heating can operate 24/7. Water heater can go up to 15 kW on peak consumption, depending on the model.

It is fairly easy to reach 4 kW consumption in a single-room apartment. If you have a house, I'd reckon the consumption can skyrocket quite easily.

 

Last I remember being in Europe, particularly Germany, every house had a radiator in every room. They seemed pretty intent on keeping their whole homes warm.

Generally I only keen the room I'm in warm.

Also woodfire heaters will dramatically shorten your lifespan.

 

Let's say I'm around the north of Denmark, we don't see much sun these days and we won't see it much until late spring next year.

I have money, just not buy a house and equip it with solar panels money. And, as you outlined, towards the poles getting solar panels right now won't do much good right now.

I won't struggle this winter, but my buying power is severely impacted by the situation (high inflation, euro value collapse - suddenly most licenses which are in $ have gotten significantly more expensive, gasoline is more than twice the price it was last year, food's 30% more expensive, electricity will be twice as expensive starting with next month, central heating is about 3x times more expensive than it was last season) so I'm looking to cut down costs.

 

AFAIK their heating is fuel-based and not electric, though the situation may vary.

That's an area where solar power won't be that great.
You'd probably need to look into insulation instead. See the window thing I mentioned.

 

Yep it will run you an average of at least the price of a 10kW system here to swap your windows and doors.

The solar system has an average lifespan around 10 years which is mostly for the batteries. At my current energy costs of $1,800 per year, it will take 15,000 / 1,800 = 8.33 years to pay it off. So I get 1.66 years of savings then I might need to replace the batteries. 1.66 years of savings will yield me $2,988, is that enough to replace the batteries? Nope.

Add in geothermal heating/cooling and you are golden. My parents had that in a house they built, it was pretty good. My dad told me the supplemental heater they had to compensate for really cold days only turned on once in 10 years, and we get -35c sometimes. 2009 we broke a 140 year record with a low of -38.8c which was probably the year the heater kicked in.

Or Canada. We get winters that are just as harsh here. We have some pretty strict building codes here so all new houses are required to meet codes that do not exist in warmer areas. Recently doors got an upgrade to the codes and require some automotive grade components to prevent water and air leaking. This increased the cost of doors by 50%.

 

It's central heating around these parts that generally is not individually controllable. Infrastructure is pretty S*** still. Main fuel source is wood chips in my city. Some other cities focus more on natural gas, people living in those places are truly F***ed. That's why everyone's stressing about gas in Europe. It's not just the industry that needs it.

 

On the bright side, we have fewer rooms to heat! I find that AC is the biggest factir in my energy consumption. I would estimate a majority of my energy bill is cooling and heating.

 

I live in the same area. My apartment is nice but very, very poorly isolated - gas heating in the basement.
As already pointed out, oven, stove etc. pull serious power. Though not on all day, eating dinner that requires less preparation could help as well. When weather gets sub 5 degrees Celsius you could even turn off the fridge and store food outside. Apart from the fridge, I don’t really have any items sucking power in the background.

I know there’s talk about cutting electricities ties to gas in the EU. It was mainly intended to incite investment into renewable energy sources, but as it stands - these companies are making an absolute killing at the moment.

 

You mean that was the intention before March?
Because since then it's all about replacing Russia as a gas provider which already cut the majority of gas deliveries on their own (to 20% in German e.g.).

Some companies might make a killing but not all. The opposite is the case for those which have delivery contracts with customers (private and industrial). Those are common to run a year or longer and that means the delivery companies have to buy gas for tripple the usual and more and deliver it at the same cost as usual.
Germany had to activate a loophole law for such special cases (Gasumlage) to counter that in fear of bancrupty of gas delivery companies and also directly supports or has bought up some of the major players (mainly because of the gas-storage capacities).

Production companies from other countries than Russia definitely profit. And the fact that the EU now wants to import as much as possible overseas also lead to an increasing price over in the US...

 

Not an expert here, but its my understanding that electricity is basically locked to the price of gas. This was done to incentivise investments into non fossils. Half of our country’s electricity comes from wind and solar, which means its not really directly impacted by gas and oil prices - legislation makes it so.

Thats not to say prices would revert back again, should ties be cut. If electricity prices where to pummel, everyone would start using it for hearting - which in turn would dive them up again… I assume.

Edit: there’s actually been talk about taxing these companies for their “extraordinary” income, funnelling some of that money back to the users. Don’t know how much were talking, but even the companies have been open to this.

 

Is that mainly because of the thermodynamics where cold air is falling out of the fridge type constructions every time you open them or because of other factors?

 

Are you talking about Germany?

Since there is a dependency, yes, but only around 13% of our power is from gas, so not sure I'd say they are truly locked together. But yeah if that gets more expensive, power gets more expensive too. But not to that extreme. People who heat with gas do surely have it worse. And my favorite swimming hall is heating their water less now..

Yeah, am curious what will turn out of that.

 

I believe is EU in general. Energy prices are artificially matched to the most expensive method, which now is gas. So, even if you used 0% gas to make electricity, it would still cost the same (edit - for the end user of cause).
Like I mentioned, I believe the idea was to inspire larger investments into renewable energy, selling with a higher profit margin.

There’s an article here https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-...r-ukraine-electricity-crisis-nord-stream-gas/

Excerpt from the site -

The developments come after leaders from the parties in Germany’s ruling coalition on Sunday finally agreed to back the European Commission’s proposed electricity price levy for "inframarginal" plants — that is power generators not using natural gas. Because of the way the EU's power market functions, such non-gas producers have been making huge windfall profits because the price of power is set by the most expensive input — natural gas.

 

We've got very cheap electricity here @ Ukraine. But there's another problem, ahem.

So UPS', powerbanks, and a little bit of hope. That's about max preparation I'm thinking of.


And maybe some AA Defence would be nice as well.

 

Electricity is cheap where I am (Washington and Oregon), from hydro dams but not everyone has a giant river, if you go over to central Washington state, 25% of the electricity in the county Wenatchee is in goes to crypto mining...the state is trying to target them and raise their price 30% because it's so rampant.

 

Yep, but also those same thermodynamic properties allow it to remain closer to an idle state for longer periods of time since no consumer freezer is generally going to be airtight. Depending on your situation it may also come with some inconveniences, like having to bend over to get everything out of it.

 

Uh, there's a thing called thermostatic radiator valve.

Spoiler

Basically, you CAN regulate temperature with it (you'll probably want a 3 way version, though...) even in case of central heating, assuming that heating agent is sufficiently clean and won't kill the valve.

The thing is, this sort of thing makes more sense in a situation when multiple apartments are heated with a single boiler.

If you have a house and only one "dumb" boiler, it won't save fuel, as the boiler will keep cycling the heating agent, even if the valves are nearly shut.

 

When I am pooping I time the release with a flush so that the turd is immediately whisked away. Minimal methane gasses escape into the atmosphere that way.

What's this got to do with unity or even game development though?

 

It is all a part of the great game. It is swivelization versus biosphere mass. The game loop is the mercantile tower outposts have to grow to stay in the game. But the growth process emits health points and the biomass gets chaotic as it increases in health points from extra food caused by the mercantile tower outpost growth by-product. It then begins to encroach on the perimeters and within the outposts as it climbs over the highways and up their towers like so many hungry triffids. The tower guild has to beat it back and starve it's industry to not feed the biomass it but has to maintain the mercantile system or they lose their leaderboard position. In the meantime the planet is heading into a galactic current and all is uncertain. What will happen next? I can't put this stupid game down...can I? Tune in tomorrow for the next thrilling episode of The Great Game..The Balancing Act. The server gets reset every 12K cycles or so.

Meanwhile Bill Joe Bubba sat on his porch reflecting on the ways of nature as he watched a squirrel gathering nuts and burying his stashes here and there before getting up, going inside and canning some more string beans. He wasn't a swivelized man and his senses told him something was a comin'.

 

Fascinating! I never knew this makes such a big difference but it makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the explanation!

 

Heard an interesting statistic today. If all the lithium on the planet earth within one mile of the surface were made into a giant battery and charged completely it would provide the entire electrical capacity being used by civilization currently for a total of 22 minutes.

 

Your calculations has few missing factors.
Even if for 10 years that is the true, most current solar panels has life expectancy of +20years.
That means, even after replacing batteries (in that case) within first 10 years, you got about another 10 years of profit.
However, I have seen some 11 old panels, which have degraded (but functional). I don't know if that is because early tech adoption, or some low quality panels at that time.

There are various issues with different method of storing the energy. This why we had discussion, about alternative way of storing energy.
In fact I do wonder, on the concept of using used car / trucks batteries from scrap yards, to store the energy.

I have renovated few years back windows, rather replacing.
I did put double insulation tape around windows. Plus glass insulation paste.
Doing windows insulation is extremely cheap in comparison to replacing windows. Pretty much anyone can do itself.
I would definitely recommend do that as first step in energy savings, if the budged is limited.

 

Your math is off, I would need to buy the batteries they do cost money and with a 10 year battery they cost as much as the panels. It wouldn't be 10 years of profit, I would still have to make up for the cost of replacing the batteries. Yes I missed a few things $15k is just for the panel system not the batteries I also have to pay to get it in installed and then maintain it. There are probably other fee's or charges that will come up as with any project.

This is done, it cost me less for electricity than most places in the entire world. Solar is not cheaper for me in the long run, winter time here would really put a damper on how much I would get from it, so I would be buying from the municipality or using a generator.

If it works for you, by all means go ahead. It doesn't work for me and has no benefit other than some virtue signaling to show I support the green movement.

 

You can use solar without a battery storage. A battery storage is only necessary if you want to save the power to use during the hours of the day when there is no sunlight.

https://www.solar.com/learn/can-i-use-solar-panels-without-a-battery/

 

Why do people consider batteries as a part of the default setup? They're an optional extra using immature, expensive technology with a payback period longer than their expected lifetime. Unless you specifically want to go off-grid (which is way past the topic of economically powering your game dev) I'm struggling to see any advantage to them at this point.

For the rest of the system, warranty periods I've seen for inverters are 10 years and for solar panels is 20+ years, and warranty periods are by necessity shorter than the expected typical lifetime of a product.

I agree that it can easily be done, and I can understand spikes going past that. What I'm interested in is how average overall usage is well over 6kw in the US? I'm in a 3 person household in Aus and our average usage is much lower than that (and well below the local average, too) even with a bunch of work-from-home happening.

My guess is that it's heating / cooling which makes most of the difference? My main office at home used to get really hot on even a mildly warm day, due to poor thermal design of the house itself. I'm lucky enough to have a reasonable laptop, so rather than turn on the AC (which is also poorly designed - zones are large areas of the house which aren't even closed off from one another) I grab that and head to a cooler spot. Of course that's not an option for everyone - you need something to work on, and there needs to be a cooler place to retreat to.

 

You guys trolling? I would require a battery in Canada, without question. If not I would only have power for maybe 4 hours in the day provided there is sun. We get lots of dark days and lots of snow. Also I would be at work during those hours. Wow just wow.

 

Amazon shut down its solar panel usage due to fire hazards. The roofs kept catching on fire. So there is that hazard along with birds getting fried, which don't sound very green to me.

Since the 70's with satellites we have detected a 0.28C temperature anomaly. Methinks someone is causing a big stink over nothing. So what is the real end game? Many of us here understand game theory and extrapolation. It is a core to our profession for the most part.

 

By asking a question? Not at all. You were responding to someone who'd just said they were from Australia and talking about averages, so I had no reason to think your comment was specific to Canada.

 

I'm already 100% solar on my boat in Australia (with the occasional use of the gen when La Nina comes around).

Overall though (and generally speaking of course) optimizing your workspace and being more productive is more important than saving a few dollars here and here.

 

Only some of it, and only temporarily.

Their systems in the US were turned of while they performed audits, after a bunch of fires made it clear that things weren't up to industry standards. They turned them back on as they were inspected and problems were addressed, and they continue to build new solar farms.

Still, it's a good reminder that if you do get a system installed (of any kind) to get it done by someone reliable. If dodgy operators can cause a pain to an org as big as Amazon then I sure as heck don't want them messing with my house! Here in Aus I'm told that there are a few operators with big advertising campaigns who sell ridiculously cheap, unreliable systems, then close the company and start a fresh one every few years to basically get out of any warranty obligations. Look up reviews and make sure you're dealing with someone with a trustworthy reputation.

 

In majority of the world, Sun has annoying tendency to hide behind horizon from time to time, and when that happens, there's no more solar power, but you you still need electricity.

Actually you often need more power at night time than you need at a day, because at night temperature have tendency to go down and you need light, while during the day natural lights and maybe natural heat might suffice.

So unless someone comes up with a Lunar Power Panel, it is almost expected for solar panel to be used in tandem with a battery, and using it alone is actually an uncommon scenario.

 

They went on fire because they tried to up the output to meet their needs. So they can dial back their voltage and get no fires but they do not gain the efficiency that was originally planned.. Solar farms fry birds. Big fan of fried chicken here but not so much fried hawk or eagl.,

The big issue with solar is in regards to general application is geographic and weather. Alaskans would have no power at all six months of the year. I am in Georgia USA and even in the summer we have a week at a time that does not have enough sun to keep a fridge on 24 hours a day let alone run the air conditioner to avoid being coated in sweat 24/7 when the temp and humidity is high. The second half of the solar panel equation is that they are somewhat useless without a battery pack. All the lithIum in the world can only power our electric needs as a whole for 22 minutes.

Clearly there has to be other forms of energy generation made viable before we shut down what has worked. Whether that is commercialization of overunity electrical devices, thorium reactors, harnessing hydrinos, tide power or others I do not know but I do perceive the gambit being played by TPTB to be cynical and cruel. I ain't gonna freeze to death or eat bugs because some loons got unhinged because some money grubbers propaganda gambit is running the table currently.

 

And a lunar power panel would have a one month power output gradient curve cycle.

 

So... "Cosmic background radiation power panel", then?

 

The majority of game developers tend to have access to a power grid.

 

See the opening post about power costs. (-_-)

 

From the article that I linked to:

One doesn't need to be completely off of the grid to be considered green. If that were the requirement almost no one would actually qualify.

 

Sigh. See my comments re: batteries not paying themselves off in their expected lifetimes. Currently, in my region at least, they'll push costs up, not down, even after projected increases in electricity costs and doing something like joining a VPP. If the economics work out elsewhere then explaining that would be far more productive than explaining how the sun goes 'round. ;-)

At a wider scale I already benefit from batteries, as they're a part of our power grid in general. They're used to smooth out the dips when the balances between various generation methods change, so that we don't need to rely on any one method in any one place. With that in mind I see little benefit at this stage in having one of my own compared to pulling power from the grid as needed, unless the economics change significantly - which could happen, but isn't expected here at this stage.

 

The OP was talking about reducing power costs not eliminating them completely.

 

I shaved my head so I don't have to use the hair dryer anymore. Take THAT Big Electric!

 

However, the OP spoke about 10x price increase. That's the level where "up" may become "down". I.e. if before the price hike, battery setup would double power cost, with 10x price increase the same setup would mean 80% cost reduction instead and becomes a reasonable idea.

It is impossible to eliminate power costs completely, because "nothing lasts" - equipment costs money and has a lifetime.

 

Yes. With the OP it may very well make sense but it may not make sense for the person in Canada.

But different equipment has different cost to lifetime ratios which is why I recommended skipping batteries. You can always add them on at a later date if you decide it makes sense.

 

Just to clarify, I was talking base/raw price of power. Usually, the bulk of the bill is tax, sub. cost, transportation and whatever b.s. they can add to inflate the price. Prior to this ordeal, actual electricity cost only accounted for 1/6th of the bill; this is of cause no longer the case. Think my last bill was around 2-3x compared to last year.

 

And there are different geographic regions.

In many of them you want light and heat at night, because nights are cold and dark.

 

Depending on where it started, sure.

A bald decision, I must say!

 

But compare the duration in use? Short use appliances end up not being the main cost. Usually it probably will be the overpowered PC.

Mind you I don't have a dishwasher or Air con, since those are too expensive for me, and my washing machine is broken as well (has been for years). To the laundromat, I go, or just wash it in the sink.

 

Dishwasher and Clothes washer can keep working for a few hours when you use them. Depends on the model and the program selected.

Air con can be 24/7 and will likely will drain way more power than your PC, unless you have a mining farm.

But like I said, profile before optimizing.

 

They can, but they usually use less power on long cycles, not more.

The main power draw of these appliances is usually for heating water. Pumps and motors are quite power efficient these days in comparison. Short dishwasher programs rely on heat to clean things, where long ones let friction and chemicals do the work. It takes longer, but doesn't need as much energy.

It'd be pretty silly to have a program which took longer and used more power or water to get the same result.

 

Speaking of air conditioners and heaters performing proper maintenance can help make them more efficient. Some of these tasks can be performed by non-professionals too like cleaning out the radiatiors. If it snows a lot in your area try to find a way to block the snow from landing on them without obstructing air flow.

Replacing less efficient equipment can help too. A year ago I replaced my window air conditioner and electric radiator heater with a minisplit, and one of the first things I noticed was how it rarely had to do more than the lowest amount of effort heating and cooling my room.

 

What about heat pump? What are your opinion on that? I see some people hyping this online, assuming good insulation.