The energy situation… and you

So, first of all; this isn’t about politics, nor do I wish to spiral into it. It doesn’t affect everyone, but the people whom it does, high prices are just reality.

I’m curious though, have you taken any actions/precautions? With electricity following gas prices I’m seeing roughly a 10-20x x base price increase at the moment.

My PC eats around 100w idle, 200-250w easy while working in an active viewport; scaling to inf when running a game . It was actually one of the reasons I bought a Mac Mini m1 about a year ago. That was before the hellish prices we endure at present time.

The mini usually hovers around 8-10w most of the time. 17ish or so pushed. Also did a test today, checking watt usage on my IPad Pro,11 inch... 2-3w doing light work (YouTube, typing etc) - less than the led light on my nightstand (3,4w). It’s kinda bonkers that, given finite energy, I could used my PC for 1 hour, or my IPad for 100h. Especially considering the Ipad also house the screen.

I realise you can’t develop games on an Ipad or your phone, but do you find yourself reaching for a lighter device when brute force isn’t needed? Or yolo #howcares?

 

I have done no changes. There's no real point: I was already as efficient as I could be without it descending into stupidity. So any further actions I do are simply saving money elsewhere. I am already poor, so I already did what I could.

If I run out of cash, so be it. Wouldn't be the first time.

 

Turn off extra monitors when not needed!

 

Also I can't afford any of the new (or even 30xx) GPUs or anything like that, so I'm probably saving a lot of money right there! Same for consoles, can't afford anything since PS4 classic.

My car's insurance costs more than the actual car (and it has moss on it, hehe).

I like to call it Sterling Moss.

 

Now consider the time you spend on your mac mini vs desktop working with Unity, to do the same thing.

You need consider proficiency. Smaller screen, means less workspace, means you need flip more often between aps. Means spending tons of time on adjusting work space etc. Unity is not just Unity, but involves often many external tools. C# coding is one of many to bring.

Loading and reloading time. Lower power usage often means, your pc spends more time doing the same thing, in comparison to what would do more capable hardware.

Considerations on limitation on what you can do, when working on lower power hardware.

In the end you maybe save few Watts, for the cost of the time.

Plus, you spending money on low power hardware, which possibly would compansate your few years of work on desktop. That is, cost of power you need to spend anyway + cost of the hardware.

I obviously do not take into consideration aspects like mobility, nor space limitations, since that wasn't the part of OP discussion.

Obvious savings can be, by working in a day, when lights are not needed. Unless having variable power rate cost.

 

Even with my computer hardware I still use less electricity than the bulk of my neighbourhood so I haven't really changed much at all.

 

Absolutely, its just that a large portion of time (mine at least) is often spend doing low performance tasks on high powered machines - e.g. like writing forum posts .

I wouldn’t spin up Unreal on the mini when I have hardware much more in line with its requirements, just to save power; that would be silly. That said, sometimes there’s a silver lining. I actually prefer doing my current URP project on the Mini, and dread the slow recompile times and constant “hold on” messages on the PC. Photoshop also runs way better etc., So sometimes its a win win.

In general, I just tend to scale down whenever I can. Like Xjjon, turning off the extra screen when not needed. Don’t need a high powered GPU? Mini. Reading, writing doing whatever, IPad.
I know there’s a hardware cost to these items, and their energy consumption was never the main reason for purchase. But I would definitely take it into consideration these days.

 

My air-conditioner uses more electricity than the 3 computers, 4 monitors and 2 T.V's I have running all the time.

I'm lucky though, I live in a province in Canada where power is quite cheap and the bonus is that we emit zero co2. The hydro company is only allowed to raise the price when it is justified and gas has no effect on that.

I did switch over to have all LED lighting and that's about it. Next summer I will upgrade my AC to a much more efficient system because window units are extremely inefficient.

 

I'm in unaffected region.

Your PC likely eats as much as a bunch of Incandescent lightbulbs.

The BIG power consumers would be:
* Microwave
* Dishwasher
* Washing mashine
* Electric Heaters
* Air conditioner

and maybe your freezer.

Those are devices that can eat up to 2..4 kW when operating.

So if you're looking to cut power costs, you'd need to start with heavy consumers. Alternatively, you could go with "profile before optimizing" approach and look for smart outlets that let you measure power consumption, and see which one needs to be cut.

 

On the topic of freezers, this is why I plan to get a chest freezer once I have the floor space. Aside from the storage issue it would solve, they're also monumentally more efficient than standing or fridge-built units. Apparently some can also be modified to work as refrigerators for similar efficiency gains, but I haven't looked into that much.

 

Lately, all of my living expenses have increased. Electricity costs may have gone up more percentage-wise, but it's such a small chunk of my overall picture. If I had to worry about money, I'd probably look to other places to cut back first.

 

"Profile before optimizing" still applies, though. Need to check if it is really eating a good chunk of electricity bill or not.

 

Inflation's 21%+, food's about 30% more expensive across the board with up to +50% for certain items, electricity is about to be double the cost I had last year.

One thing I could do was to go to a competing internet provider which offered the same speed for 10 EUR/month less. Maybe I should start gaming exclusively on Steam Deck which is more energy efficient than my i9/3070ti desktop. And I'll probably raise my rates to adjust for inflation at the very least.

It's gotten cold enough that I don't need to run the AC anymore, I don't have electric heaters, don't have a microwave, don't have a dishwasher. Can't really not run the washing machine. I'll look into getting more energy efficient light bulbs at least. I do have a toaster oven I like to cook with often, that's gonna have to stop I guess. Even though gass is also getting more expensive, it's not yet as expensive as using electricity for cooking.

EDIT: Didn't know smart plugs existed, gonna get on that.

 

In my case it'd only cut a few cents off, but anywhere I move to I'd have to get a new freezer and fridge anyway and chest based options are cheaper on that front as well.

 

Putting a fan in your oven to move the air around will make it more efficient by reducing cooking time. This is how air fryers work, though I would never buy one of those fire hazards.

Cleaning out your dryer duct regularly decreases drying time.

Cleaning your air ducts if you have a forced air furnace will increase efficiency as well as replacing the filter regularly. Added bonus of having better air quality as well.

Installing proper ventilation in your roof will help as well.

All of this will save you more electricity than turning off your computer.

 

Keep in mind that those things have maximum output cap. If you put a 2.4 kW device into a plug that supports 800 W max it'll probably break.

Another possible keywords are "metered temporary outlet" or "power meter plug".

Spoiler

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Honestly, lots of stuff that could be said on the topic would definitely fall under politics.

 

Noted, the one I'm looking at now is rated for 2.3k which would be good for my PC and some lighter load outlets. I'll need to look up what my washing machine consumes.

 

Assuming you are not using some sort of industrial monstrosity to wash your clothes, it should be in ballpark of 2kW, but you definitely need to raincheck that.

 

I mow my lawn with a push mower. Probably huff out more CO2 that way than with a gas mower but the noise is atrocious. Dry my clothes at night when it is cool so that heats the back end of the house as it has no external air outlet. Will be putting a rocket mass heater in the fireplace so heat is used properly from firewood as it uses 1/6th the wood a wood burning stove would and probably 1/10th of the wood a fireplace does. Lights are mostly LEDs except where incandescents are needed due to better spectrum light for art or reading.

But.. I can do all this and glance towards downtown and see these huge monstrosities nicknamed skyscrapers that sit there 24/7 even unoccupied or occupied by very few chugging away with their heating and AC, the hall and exterior lights cranked. They produce no wealth in their offices for the most part. One day of their systems energy consumption is probably well beyond what I could consume in a year with my guitars and speakers, lights, oven and heat exchanger cranked 24/7. They are the dens of the transactional insertionalists who shuffle paper to make "money" which is mistaken as wealth. These rent seekers who produce nothing of true value to life are the clownage that insist I must curtail what few activities I do that actually consume or transform energy. Since they are not doing the necessary in their domains I can only assume their strident calls to action are a form of their will to power and further transactional insertionalism that folks are seeing in their energy bills...and homey don't play that game.

 

Yikes, that's much bigger than the increases we're seeing here, which I already thought were big!

We're switching to solar power here, which will theoretically make all of those things, and our PCs, almost "free" to run during the day, which is when they're mostly used.

When I picked my last set of upgrade components the power draw figures were a significant part of my choice. From memory, performance per watt had gone up across the board, but bigger GPUs in particular were still able to single-handedly draw more than my entire previous PC. I think it'd be cool (no pun intended) if Apple's M1 sets a trend towards lower power stuff. As @Ng0ns says, most of the time even a powerful machine is doing low-power stuff, so I'm really into the idea of hardware that can scale up and down as needed, and for most computing tasks you only need a fraction of what even a modest modern machine has on offer.

I didn't really do this stuff as "precautions" against power price increases, as most of it was in place before that became a concern. I just don't like wasting stuff.

Some of those are bigger consumers when they're on, but my PC is on 8+ hours a day, where those are on for a few minutes at a time or once or twice a week. Of course heating and AC are required more in some parts of the world than they are here.

Yeah, we have that here too. At my old job I pointed out that the AC and banks of lights were going on for weeks of the year when nobody was present in certain buildings, and the only reason they did anything about it was to shut me up. They didn't seem to care about the resource waste or the money it cost them. A handful of businesses could probably shelter and feed the city's homeless population with what they'd save by tidying that up.

 

Looks like our government might establish electricity bill price ceiling for the first 100 kWh. Now I somehow need to cut around 30-40kWh per month if that becomes the case. Will see on the 27th.

 

Many modern office buildings has automated lighting system, which is automatically switched on and off, when no one works. This is to make an impression from outside, the building is not empty.

This may be or not the case, but many buildings reduces heating temperature / turning down AC over the night. At least in certain areas of buildings, yet they can not go below certain level of comfort. That may be dictated by the law (depending on the region), more than building management.

Many shops and hypermarkets keep lights on (or turn them down), to prevent potential stealing at night.

I am not defending decisions. Just saying how many places operates.

 

Probably even more so these days now that a lot of businesses have embraced work-from-home these days, leaving a lot of these towering concrete pillars empty.

My mother's employer went from owning 5 floors in one of the biggest buildings in Sydney to having half a floor of hot-seats with nearly all their employees working from home now.

But this whole energy thing makes me wish I at least made enough to own my own house, or get a mortgage for one. Get some solar panels + home battery, and then you're laughing at the energy costs.

 

Yeah, the problem is that the automated system was configured poorly. Even when we were there it often heated / cooled too much, so it'd automatically turn on, and we'd get up and lower it or turn it off. But it'd reset itself to the "correct" settings every 2 hours whether we were there or not, and apparently we couldn't be trusted to change the configuration.

And this isn't uncommon.

Home batteries are a long way off being cost effective. Even if you join a VPP the payback period is much longer than the expected life of the battery.

Though with the increased pricing we're seeing I guess that gap could close pretty quickly...

Also, the figures I looked at were for residential and home office usage. If you're running a dedicated studio that could use enough power in one place to change the math.

 

Solar power has limited lifespan and does not work in every area. You need to be closer to equator. There's matter of batteries, which are not environment friendly. Then again, if you need to cut costs short-term, the environmental concerns are probably not the first priority.

If we're looking for ways to cut heating costs, couple of months ago someone mentioned on other resource that apparently geothermal pumps are a thing. Also called "ground source heating"

This sort of stuff is only possible if you have your own house, and probably is going to be costly, though.

P.S. Feels like we're going to see "how to build your own hydroelectric power station" kind of posts soon.

 

It does depend how much power you use.

My folks have a huge solar array, 2 x Tesla power walls, and, of course, a Tesla. The amount they save on fuel and power makes the cost more than worth it. They're well off, mind, you, so really it was an environmental choice than a money one.

There's a lot of interest free loan sort of deals to make the cost more digestible too. And plenty of smaller options available.

But hell, batteries are the new semiconductor. The price of a battery is about 10% what it was 10 years ago. If that keeps on going, my first car is probably going to be a cheap electric car.

 

I was just answering the question. It's what we're doing because it works for us. Nothing is perfect. That said, we're nowhere near the equator and it doesn't really matter, and even with our apparently low energy usage the projected payback period is ~3.5 years out of an expected 20+ year lifespan (even at our apparently low usage). Mileage will vary significantly, of course. On the flip side, we're not getting a battery because they're neither cost effective nor otherwise of advantage at this point.

Well, our power usage is apparently well below average, despite working from home doing game dev stuff quite regularly. Honestly, if you're worried about either cost or environmental impact, I'd say the first step is to reduce usage rather than worry about where it's coming from.

Also, unless you're running some crazy hardware, I doubt that home-based game dev setups are likely to make a big impact on energy usage in general. In most cases it's going to be about the same as whatever gaming you might be doing. I suspect that in areas where it's needed the heating / cooling is likely to be more of an impact than the game dev gear itself.

 

I kinda wonder why flywheel batteries are not very popular, though.

 

Because are dangerous for domestic use.
For any practical use to store energy for few moments, that will require quite a decent size and weight of flywheel.
Any fault in bearings, will make fly wheel go out of it axis. That can easily go through walls, if out of control.
Flywheel need regular maintenance and checks.

 

If you get sun a better investment may be a satellite dish covered with disco mirror squares focused on a sterling engine that drives a generator to charge the batteries. The sterling engine is basically a back and forth piston driven by heat looping and cooling. The benefit of the sterling engine is it's abillty to use any heat source to drive it. No sun? Use a propane flame. No propane..set a wood fire under it. I have seen the 1kW sterling engine gensets that use wood for about 1000-2000 USD. Here is an article one one..
https://www.vice.com/en/article/vvv...ith-a-woodstove-and-a-100-stirling-engine-q-a

 

Speaking of environmental impact there's more to manufacturing solar panels than just the electricity. Solar panels for homes are typically made from monocrystalline silicon wafers. Creating these wafers consumes a tremendous amount of water. Easily millions of gallons per day per factory.

Toxic chemicals are both used in and created as a byproduct of the process and must be properly disposed of.

https://ilumsolar.com/how-the-solar-panel-manufacturing-process-is-going-green/

 

I have thought about building one that used neodymium magnets to float on via pole to same pole repelling on the bottom and the same on the sides. Seems to me that will keep it axially centered about it's moment of inertia as the magnetic fields repel to equivalence with the opposing circumference.

 

Their main selling point is LOW maintenance....
And regarding walls, there's underground install.

I believe you're referring to CSP - Concentrated Solar Power
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_solar_power

Spoiler

For smaller scale this sort of thing might work better with a lens.

Spoiler

As long as the beam is not powerful enough to melt the engine.

As far as I know, there were at least research attempt for that, but the information is spotty. Research articles here and there from 2016 and till now. Nasa is using flywheels in vacuum, though.

 

Magnetic low friction bearings are quite usable in a vacuum. Other bearings are harder due to the lubrication required, though they do work.

Either could be used by NASA, as they both do exist and are available to purchase. I would gather the magnetic bearings are much lower maintenance.

@ippdev A sterling engine is only about 40% efficient, fly wheels can be up to 90%. You are better off with the fly wheel then use that mirror dish to concentrate light into some water filled with nano particles so it can create steam that will then spin/charge the fly wheel.

 

You have quotes wrong person.

There is many use cases that flywheel is used, both using bearing and levitating.

From NASA applications in various space crafts/satelites, via ITER for fast large energy diacharge, number of power stations, for power stasions stabilisation to maglev. The challange here is, these are none domestic use applications.

I have looked before, into flywheels for off-grid applications, but didn't go through calculations too deep. For home applications, to maintain 4kWh off-grid power supply, for duration of 24hrs, you would need at least a flywheel with a at least mass of a ton, which spins many k rpm. Obviously radius and materials comes into play.

Keeping/building such flywheel for domestic use even with a vacume and with levitating bearings, seems uneconomical atm.

Yet one of the research companies, suggest, they are working on the solution, where 1kWh cost around 100 to 200$. Adding all research and manufacturing cost plus economical situation I yet see, if we ever will see such low price per 1kWh. In comparison, you can buy batteries for around 300$ to similar capacity. Prices may vary today.

However, there are few companies, that sell flywheel solutions for power applications. Long term energy storage is tricky for domestic applications.

It is much easier, if want to build ups solution for storing energy for few hrs.

Tesla as many other companies provide their off-grid solutions. Obviously no flywheel. Need to consider cost effectiveness for long term.

Interestingly, many companies failed on flywheel power solutions, due to viability reasons.

 

This is interesting tech. https://brilliantlightpower.com/suncell-in-process/ . Seems to drop hydrogen to it's lowest energy state and then up it to cause burst of photons whose energy is harvested from photovoltaic cells. Can produce industrial levels of wattage. Not sure TPTB want this type of tech out there. Swivelisation and not civilization seems to be the goal of the transactional insertionalists of the International Mercantile Bankster Guild of Head Honchos attempting to usher in the Age of Total Compliance...

 

Solar and other discussed technologies are out of reach for us plebs who rent flats in cities. Not to mention the significant funds necessary for entry and the pre-requisite of owning a house which is uncommon amongst my peers.

There are government subsidies and whatnot, but depending on the country they might be suboptimal - have to fall in certain demographic groups or buy from specific, inefficient solar panel distributors that have a contract with the government.

i.e. solar is only a solution for the select few who are geographically located in solar friendly regions and who can afford it. And if you can afford solar, you won't have problems surviving the rising cost of living.

 

I live in a house and I can't even fit 10kW system on my property, unless I want to cover my entire yard, house and all with the panels. Not sure how this is going to work, they would need to restructure everything.

Also the initial cost of the system even with help for gov is still $10k or more. Plus you have a contract with the power company and they get your excess, which they sell back to you when the system can't keep up with your demands. Sure you get a rebate, but they still make money off you, selling you less power than you gave them for more.

 

Not everyone lives in the flat. That is no reason for trying shutting down the discussion.
And not really.
I have UPS in my house, which is suitable for holding my PC running for 30min, if out of power. Already saved my time and work many times over, during short blackouts / surges. Some lasted less than minute.
It is part of energy storage tech. hence discussion.

Initial cost is starting from about 100$.
You don't need store energy for days for whole house, depends what is your goal.

Goal is to store energy which overproducing, and reuse it when is needed, rather depending on power supply directly.
Hence reducing bills.

Most houses don't fit 10kW system. More like 4kW. The average family demand.
There are also limitation on the house roof direction toward sun. Specially when having fancy shaped roof.
Or garden shading issues, if someone has space in the garden.

Also it is possible to build 2-4kW system for 1-2k$. But you would need to do it DIY and in the garden, rather on the roof.
Either way, the challenge here is to be able store energy in economical way, anything you over produce. Some form of a energy buffer.

 

Check with your power company. Ours allows us to buy a portion of our power as solar.

 

I doubt that's a thing around these parts but will check.

I'm not shutting down discussion, I'm trying to steer it towards more practical application like OP intended. Theoretical flywheels don't help anyone.

What does UPS have to do with anything? I have one too, it's not saving me any money as far as electricity bills go. It won't for OP either.

That might be some far off goal in the future, generally, for people who can afford that, maybe? But we're facing the energy crisis right now. Millions of people who live in cities can't just buy a house and slap solar panels on top of it.

 

If you want to talk numbers, I love to break everything down and analyze the numbers to see what's more viable or meets the requirements of what is needed at the best cost or efficiency, because a 4kW system might work in Europe but in NA it's 66% less than the average consumption.

But I digress...

The discussion wasn't about where or how you get power or what was more efficient, it was about how to reduce the OP's usage. Which they found out that they were looking in the wrong place to reduce usage. You interpret it as "shutting down" the discussion, that was already off topic.

 

I wasn't addressing OP. I was addressing response of previous poster. Please do not cherry pick words for your convenience.

It looks like OP found the answer, which is good thing.

Yet we are in general forum. That doesn't mean we need end the topic on energy related matter.
If you want to contribute to the thread, please do so. For example, where inefficiency comes from and what you can do, to improve efficiency of homes.

It looks like most practical answers and suggestions were already given.

Just because something is not popular, or inefficient, doesn't mean it is theoretical.
Flywheels do exists and are used in various applications as we read in this tread. Even for domestics applications.

It is good to discuss and brainstorm options. Then maybe someone will know and point out valid solution, related to OP question.

 

I forgot to add upgrading your windows, doors and insulation.

Edit: There is lots you can do, but it's all going to cost money. Inflation is pretty high right now so upgrading is out of quite a few peoples reach.

 

neginfinity's advice on profiling before optimizing is on point. I ordered a tp-link smart plug with usage metrics for testing. If it works well enough, I'll gear up most of my outlets with those to see what consumes the most and where I can optimize. Can also program them to shut off at specific times which is also useful for saving electricity, don't have to keep plugging things in and out all the time.

Gotta look into smart lighting options next.

 

This will honestly set you back more than solar panels, to be honest.

Depends on the size of your place, but getting double/triple glazed windows for a regular bungalow is close to 20K AUD here. I believe it's cheaper to get in Europe as it's more common place.

But you're right that it's a good idea. Don't need to heat/cool your house at all if it can consistently maintain a temperature.

 

What are people doing that chugs so much power?

Oh, and I can confirm that, at least here, solar is more affordable than upgrades such as double glazing windows. It depends a lot on your house and when you do it, of course. If you do it at build time it's probably pretty economical, but most home owners buy rather than build. A compromise could be something like cellular blinds.

My preference is for passive measures rather than active ones where possible. Better to avoid getting hot than to spend more energy cooling the house down, if you can.

 

Air conditioning is a huge one, especially if it's a whole house.

 

A single 200 watt solar panel costs $100.

Of course, if you're closer to the poles, it won't be much of use in winter, and in an apartment building you'd be able to place maybe two of them on balcony, that's assuming you're even allowed to place things there or HAVE a balcony. And if on top of that you're closer to the poles (say, Canada, North of the UK, Denmark, etc), then most of the time it will be a useless black decorative panel instead.

The point is. If you have no financial buffer, no significant savings, do not have your own house, do not own a lot of land, live in a flat and already experiencing trouble because of power costs or rent, then there might not even BE a solution for the problem beyond profiling energy costs and cutting them down.

I'd suggest to invest in extra blankets and warm clothes, and research how Russians used to insulate windows in winter on youtube (foam rubber + tape into window cracks), which would allow you to dial down heating.

Honestly, I'm of opinion that normally government shouldn't allow this sort of thing to happen, but what do I know? Maybe it is all a part of the plan.

Spoiler

P.S. Just in case: do not attempt to run a gasoline generator indoors. That turns indoors into a gas chamber.