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The Asset Flip (The Jimquisition)

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Aiursrage2k, May 26, 2015.

  1. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    He's doing enough of it for a TV show. If Valve tried to do it they'd have to do it for everything... and they created Greenlight specifically because they don't have time for that.
     
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  2. Tomnnn

    Tomnnn

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    Maybe Jim Sterling needs his own network and have different employees for reviewing each genre for greenlight games. 1 guy does horror, 1 guy does shooters, Jim sticks to games that are either decent or totally broken / asset flips, etc.
     
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  3. GarBenjamin

    GarBenjamin

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    For those of you who wish to follow Jim's lead you may want to check out his curated collection on Steam.

    The Jim Sterling Collection
     
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  4. Tomnnn

    Tomnnn

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    If we follow his lead to do we need to breathe through our skin?
     
  5. derf

    derf

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    Are you inferring Jim is a reptile or bug? o_O ;)
     
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  6. darkhog

    darkhog

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    Derf, watch most recent Jimquisition.
     
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  7. elmar1028

    elmar1028

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    Thread has been QUIET recently
     
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  8. GarBenjamin

    GarBenjamin

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    Everyone is busy making their UnitZ spin-off. I actually have a little project to do that whenever I can get back to it. Need more hours in the day. I could easily spend 18 hours per day on this stuff if I had the time available.
     
  9. Tomnnn

    Tomnnn

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    And topless. And breathing through its skin.

    And I could spend 24 hours a day breathing through my skin.

    I don't know why, but I really love that. I might need to take a break from the unity forums until I can de-meme.
     
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  10. Aiursrage2k

    Aiursrage2k

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    Maybe if we start a steam police service steam will buy us out for millions of dollars when they open the store
     
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  11. JumboShrimps

    JumboShrimps

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  12. Teila

    Teila

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    Sounds like someone who asked a question and got an answer. Asset flipping is not just using assets, it is using an asset as a game, not to make a game. Plenty here use assets...that is why there is an asset store.

    It feels a bit like a witch hunt here. Started out legitimate, people taking demos and kits without making any changes or very minor changes and turning them over as full games..yeah, asset flippers. But then it starts getting worse..someone uses houses from the asset store and they become asset flippers. The other day, I was told that some guy didn't get funding from Kickstarter because he used asset store houses in his scene and posted a screenshot. A link to the asset in question was posted...as if it was a horrible thing to use that particular asset because it could destroy your chances of getting funding.

    If that continues, some very good and hardworking asset creators are going to stop creating. They are going to lose business.

    Truth is, if you have a house that is from the asset store and your game is good, most folks will overlook that unless you are a AAA company. If you have a bad game and with all hand-made home grown assets, your game will still be a bad game.

    And..once you get that funding, you can replace those houses if you need to do so.
     
  13. JumboShrimps

    JumboShrimps

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    "looks like a *potential* asset flipper to me x.)" and what he was talking about is PURE asset flipping, not making a game, but instead just buying and reselling assets in a pack.
    EDIT: im not demonizing him because there are probably many more others who don't ask and just do
     
  14. Ony

    Ony

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    Let's not start a witch hunt. (how many times has that phrase been used in this thread, actually??)
     
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  15. goat

    goat

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    Honestly, if you have no money, no training, and see an asset that you bought that you enjoy playing - yes - flip the asset since we all know much of a game's success if actually advertising and not the game itself.

    Really, it makes not one wit of difference. We're not surgeons here.
     
  16. Teila

    Teila

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    Really? You forgot to use the sarcasm button. No one is advocating that at all.
     
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  17. Teila

    Teila

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    Ha! I haven't read the entire thread. Only reason I came back is because of the rumor about failed fundraising because of a house. A lot of over reacting.

    As far as I can tell, Jim isn't going after those people, only the ones who really don't build their own game at all.
     
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  18. Teila

    Teila

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    He wanted to make a kit that used the assets. That may or may not be an asset flipper depending on what else the kit might contain. I see questions all the time from perspective asset developers asking if they can buy and use other assets in their product. Someone who asks usually means well.
     
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  19. goat

    goat

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    I'm not being sarcastic at all. If an asset has a good example game that you feel you can flip, well, go for it. I haven't seen one though straight out of the asset store that you could do that with though but as you demonstrate, I've simply given my opinion, others may and do feel there are some games as assets that are worthy of being flipped as-is.
     
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  20. Teila

    Teila

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    I sort of feel that way too...the market will take care of it in the end.
     
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  21. goat

    goat

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    I agree too.

    When it comes down to it the only one that I know of that's profited from this asset flipping controversy is the maker of the videos complaining about it, the Jimquistion person. The mass media in general has too many times, conflict of interests in stirring up trouble, exaggerating stories, or fabricating stories for profit motives. That conflict of interest can't and shouldn't be ignored when reading, watching, or listening to media but I'll be truthful I have only realized that in the last few years. I used to imagine they had only the interest of the general public at heart.
     
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  22. Teila

    Teila

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    I will admit that has crossed my mind as well. Sadly, it could start hurting asset developers and those that use the products in a responsible way.
     
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  23. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    More likely just someone clarifying the lisence terms. It is something that comes up frequently. The asset store and lisening system doesn't have a good way to deal with dependencies.
     
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  24. HemiMG

    HemiMG

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    As many times as Jim has went out of his way to say that using assets is perfectly fine as long as you aren't just submitting the asset as is, or throwing them together randomly with no sense of artistic cohesion, I don't think it's fair to say that he is trying to stir up trouble. At least not for anyone that doesn't deserve it.
     
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  25. Tomnnn

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    Yep. The slaughtering ground devs and kotach are the only ones being adversely affected and they definitely deserve it.
     
  26. Teila

    Teila

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    That is good but obviously, the rumors are out there that even using model houses from the asset store can cause funding issues. I heard it from a Unity developer. Probably would help if we didn't spread rumors and links to specific asset store products based on opinions of people on Kickstarter comments or other game forums.

    Jim is stirring up trouble and he is using this to get fame/money/whatever. He may be attempting to be responsible but I don't see him putting up a video showing responsible usage of asset store products. Or comparing the asset store to places like Turbosquid and other sources of exclusive art assets.

    If he has done that or does do it, then we will know if he really is being responsible.
     
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  27. goat

    goat

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    Uh, and he's the arbiter of that? Or the profit taker from that? Because he's using such themes to profit, it's a case of the pot calling the kettle black as it's pretty clear the market had already flopped those games. If anything, he's brought more attention and success to those games then they ever warranted and of course here is a thread 7 pages long talking about Jim and what he thinks.
     
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  28. Tomnnn

    Tomnnn

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    Yes. He has asserted that he is and the internet accepted him.
     
  29. HemiMG

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    I'm sure he will if he notices it getting out of hand. When people started ragging too hard on Unity, for example, he made this video:



    He's one of the arbiters, yes. That's what reviewers do. Jim's responsibility isn't to developers. No reviewer owes developers anything. Sure, his schtick is that he's a bit of a punch down artist, but consumers benefit just as much from knowing what to look for as indication that a product isn't worth their money as they do being directly told which ones are and aren't. Markiplier profits from pretending to be scared of things that aren't scary. I love Mark, I find him hilarious, but if you want to talk about doing a disservice to consumers I think he'd be on the list before Jim. Again, I really hate to repeat myself, but a critic's responsibility is to consumers, not developers. Of course, Mark isn't really a reviewer, so his only responsibility is to entertain.

    That being said, Jim benefits real developers. Jim's entire channel is a lesson in what not to do. Even if you are the one being punched down, it should be a valuable thing. Digital Homicide could have taken Jim's criticism and learned from it to improve. Instead, they doubled down on the crap. They learned nothing, their games didn't get better.

    Just like we have to put the blame for the flood of crap on Steam directly at Valve's feet and not on Unity for making it possible, we have to put the blame for any asset backlash on the people misusing them and not the people pointing it out.
     
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  30. Teila

    Teila

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    He does? Depends...he is not benefiting REAL asset developers, you know, those folks who make nice art assets for us to use in our game or nice code or editor assets? All those lovely image effects and things that make our life easier....

    He is creating a real backlash here, and soon, if you show one house and someone links it back to the asset store, you will be bashed..maybe not by Jim, but by his followers. It is like everything else...you pick one thing you hate and you scream loud enough about it and others take it and make it bigger and bigger until people actually believe what they are saying.

    Soon this will make me an asset flipper. And I will get bashed on game forums and elsewhere. If I go for Steam Greenlight, there will be posts linking back to the asset developer, hurting him as well as me. I will be accused of not making a "game" even if the hand crafted world, the mechanics are all ours. You think not, but it has already happened. I was given a link back this very asset and told someone lost funding because of it. I don't believe it, but rumors are not always true. Still, they hurt developers, not help. Jim needs to address this again, in a long video, one that rivals his attacks. I even heard that Speedtrees could hurt you!

     
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  31. HemiMG

    HemiMG

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    So what is the solution then? Should we just not tell consumers that they may be buying something that they could probably play for free on the asset developer's page because telling the truth might get out of hand? There are plenty of cases of the media ignoring the real issue in order to manufacture outrage. But people selling asset packs as-is with no modifications isn't ignoring the real issue, it IS the real issue. People putting a London phone booth next to a US post office box is a legitimate criticism of the game. He's not making up anything here. It's not fair to hold him accountable for what his viewers do, or how they react. Especially when, as I said, pretty much every single time he mentions the improper use of assets he goes out of his way to point out that there are legitimate uses. If Jim were trying to stir up trouble, then he would be joining the witch hunt and complaining about legitimate uses as well as improper uses. I've seen no evidence of that.
     
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  32. Teila

    Teila

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    Maybe he has to go further out of his way..for example, showing legitimate uses rather than just putting in a disclaimer. But my guess that one would not get quite so many viewers. ;) He is responsible if he is the one pushing the issue but if he is making a big deal about the fact that there are legitimate uses, then he is being responsible.

    I do not think Jim is on a witch hunt..my comment about that above was pertaining to comments here and elsewhere.

    Honestly, Steam has a refund feature now. If someone buys a game and it is an "asset flipper" and they enjoy so don't notice there is a problem, then really...there is not a problem. They bought a game, they like it, they don't want a refund. If they buy it and realize that it is not up to their taste for whatever reason, then they can get a refund.

    I agree that these games are bad..but not really sure they are a problem. Consumers are ones who get to decided if something is worth the money, not you or me. If it was up to me, there are a lot games out there that are not worth the money, especially all the clones that change one word in the name and then sell the game. :)

    The big issues is us game developers who hate that someone is basically cheating and still making money off their bad game. That is what really bugs us. It is we who are bothered, obviously more than people who buy the game and don't get a refund. If they were bothered, they would get a refund, and the game developers who make such games would give up eventually.

    BTW, I have stated this before, but at a recent Unity Roadshow we attended, the Unity guy said it was perfectly okay to take assets and make a game out of them..and sell them. So...asset flipping it may be, but it is perfectly legal.
     
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  33. goat

    goat

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    I don't think any non-game developer playing games is spending much time watching Jim. LOL, really.

    I'll go right on using assets from the asset store and elsewhere and I won't care that someone that is creating reviews using convenient luxuries which help him do his, ahem, 'review' job, luxuries which are actually 3rd party assets and services used to create and host those reviews because Jim lacks the talent to create those assets himself. Wonder if he tailored his stylish clothing himself too?
     
  34. HemiMG

    HemiMG

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    Jim has never once said that merely using assets is wrong. Not once. In fact, he has said the opposite repeatedly. You are taking something that he did say, extrapolating into something that he didn't say, and using that as justification for your anger toward him. The same way that the viewers you are complaining about took something that he did say, extrapolated into something that he didn't say, and used it as justification for anger towards innocent developers.

    In both cases, it doesn't matter what he has said, or what he does say in the future. People who are looking for an excuse to be angry at a thing are going to find an excuse.
     
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  35. GarBenjamin

    GarBenjamin

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    I think you are probably right about that. The odds are quite high the people ranting in the Steam comments are primarily game developers (or wannabe game developers). I imagine some are (perhaps justifiably) angry because they feel like these people are stealing market share by "cheating" and I imagine others are angry because they did not think of the idea first. ;)
     
  36. Tomnnn

    Tomnnn

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    They need to just calm down and take a deep breathe... through their skin.
     
  37. im

    im

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    Last edited: Sep 23, 2015
  38. Kasko

    Kasko

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  39. ShilohGames

    ShilohGames

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    I am amazed by the surprise success of Shower With Your Dad. When I first heard about that game, I seriously thought it was one of those sarcastic Steam Greenlight submissions done merely as a joke. However, it has proven itself to be a real game with positive reviews and decent sales.
     
  40. Carve_Online

    Carve_Online

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    I also think he is doing a service to real developers.

    As a developer, it just all comes down to marketing. Nobody is saying you should not use Store assets in your project, but what you should not do is make a store asset the centerpiece of your marketing.

    I will give you three examples, all from the same ´developer´.

    First. A MMORPG that not only used asset store models as the main graphics on their website, they didn´t even use ingame renders, they lifted the graphics from the asset store and applied them directly to their website. The same exact images used to help sell the asset on the asset store were used on the ´games´ website to market the game. No other original artwork was used, ONLY the asset store graphics.

    Second.. Same developer announced a zombie survival game and showed nothing but a character running around in the demo scene that came from a store asset. The entire marketing was that one demo scene from one asset.

    And just this week.. same developer announced yet another game, currently being marketed on Steam, that is again a single Unity asset store purchase. Everything you see in his maketing is 100% what came with that one store purchase.

    Nobody is saying you shouldn´t use the asset store, but what you purchase should never be the major marketing item or the major functionality of your game.
     
  41. Kasko

    Kasko

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    I didn't play the game but from what I remembered from the "let's play" videos, it's actually a decent product as it's fully functional, apparently bug-free and with a lot of "game feel" for immediate satisfaction of the player.

    Rewatch the classic "Juice It" video:

    Now, watch the Pewdiepie video (or another let's play) and take note of all the game design and graphic details which "juice up" the game experience to make it exciting:
    EDIT: "censored" ;) Look up on youtube for gameplay videos.

    And of course the theme/title "hook" is definitely a coverage grabber (make the same game with a farmer having to pick up animals and it would go unnoticed even if it was "identical")

    It would be hard to replicate this success but business-wise, it can be interesting to do 1-2 side-projects like this per year as it doesn't take long and can eventually pay off in terms of virality (at worse, you'll lose 2weeks/1month of work).
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2015
  42. Tomnnn

    Tomnnn

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    @Kasko it's low res, but I do believe you've just posted a picture of genitalia on the forums.
     
  43. Kasko

    Kasko

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    Oops! :rolleyes:
    Yep thanks for the notice, I forgot there was some kind of censoring about this, the steam page screenshots with black pixels is rather special :confused:
     
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  44. im

    im

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    Found us a new one... (wow it's gone, didn't last long after the complaints started to pour in)

    Story of Abandia
    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=526306262

    Flipping Apocalyptic City 2 Asset
    https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/13532
    by Sinister
    https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/publisher/1578

    Also possible copyright infringement on asset screenshot and trailer
    Game Screenshot
    http://images.akamai.steamuserconte...612/C9F259E5C00BA266F2E2A65286D7DE698C9CCFA9/
    Asset Screenshot
    https://d2ujflorbtfzji.cloudfront.n...510c4e-24b3-4ac9-a995-06bb248920fc_scaled.jpg

    Game Screenshot
    http://images.akamai.steamuserconte...510/45CAF410671945423EDE53AEAE7B126D65A99FBE/
    Asset Screenshot
    https://d2ujflorbtfzji.cloudfront.n...19b5b9-2720-43c0-b805-2443a81ced78_scaled.jpg

    Game Screenshot
    http://images.akamai.steamuserconte...098/890EFCE94F083F1957C9A3600FF8E6A72699B91C/
    Asset Screenshot
    https://d2ujflorbtfzji.cloudfront.n...8c0eea-943d-4ccb-8411-bc31133a1146_scaled.jpg

    Game Screenshot
    http://images.akamai.steamuserconte...278/A6F9856AA80BAA5866230A06F636820C848EC09E/
    Asset Screenshot
    https://d2ujflorbtfzji.cloudfront.n...4fc419-fcbe-4ec2-b7de-3242b4450cf7_scaled.jpg

    His Screenshot
    http://images.akamai.steamuserconte...799/50A93084F02E2BDA51F8618BD30D3568729C28ED/
    Asset Screenshot
    https://d2ujflorbtfzji.cloudfront.n...afd6fc-821c-4cde-ae89-34d34a9c1a86_scaled.jpg

    Game Screenshot
    http://images.akamai.steamuserconte...447/F35193382C52AA43CC9F603600167027F680B5AD/
    Asset Screenshot
    https://d2ujflorbtfzji.cloudfront.n...d8db9f-d61e-488f-bcd6-d96d3b069bca_scaled.jpg

    Game Screenshot
    http://images.akamai.steamuserconte...408/FA61DE0B2E5774E2CD4C0B7E2266DA918FF98872/
    Asset Screenshot
    https://d2ujflorbtfzji.cloudfront.n...561d88-387d-4d4e-93cc-5a83b23333d1_scaled.jpg

    Story of Abandia Trailer
    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=526306262
    Apocalyptic City 2 Trailer
    https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/13532
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2015
  45. elmar1028

    elmar1028

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    I will make a cheap description and crappiest trailer for my game while its on greenlight.
    Jim will make a video about it. People will look it up.
    But by that time I will change the content to have a good trailer and description.

    Works 100%! ;)
     
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  46. Rico21745

    Rico21745

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    Honestly sick of this trend where everyone spews out garbage in the hopes of making some money. Can't wait until they move on to the next "green pasture" but the question is, will they have ruined the industry for the rest of us by the time that happens?

    *Looks at App store*

    Probably.
     
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  47. Eric-Darkomen

    Eric-Darkomen

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    Tomnnn likes this.
  48. Tomnnn

    Tomnnn

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  49. Kasko

    Kasko

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    Ony, im and Tomnnn like this.
  50. goat

    goat

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    Really like that art style as it shows how far and varied the art has come on, but how thuddingly dull and uninspired the game play has become after what, 40 years? That's basically the same game play as Space Invaders.
     
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