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The answer to every 'Can it be done?' and 'I've lost my way' post.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Gigiwoo, Jun 3, 2013.

  1. creat327

    creat327

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    Hi

    Well, I've learned the lesson long long ago. As a teenager I realized lot of stuff I was getting done, never saw the light because there was always something to improve. I switched to releasing, getting complains and fixing.

    As a real example, unity related, my game Dogfight. www.dogfightplay.com
    With this game is how I learned to use Unity. This was back in 2008 or 2009. I got unity and I said, well, my first game is going to be a multiplayer flight simulator. So after 2 o 3 weeks, lot of posting here I released that junk (junk now, awesome stuff back then!) into the wild. My first Unity made game and in the iPhone store.

    Was the game ever finished? Nope. My list of TODO is so long that I doubt it will be ever finished. I just kept improving it, adding more and more features and more requests from different players. What's the current status? Over 10 million downloads, runs on Windows 8, Windows Phone, OUYA, Android, Amazon, iOS and soon to be out on console. That little game that was junk turned into lot of fun to do. But if I had waiting to release it until it was done, it wouldn't be out yet because my TODO list is still over 2 pages long.

    Another important aspect of releasing and working towards your goal is that you get other people involved. The Dogfight community grew at large thanks to their collaboration among themselves and me. Every request they shoot at me, I add it to the list and then release it to them. It's just a blast.

    Here is the story of how Dogfight looked back then and how it keeps growing and growing as an unfinished product.
    http://dogfightplay.com/index.php/forum/2-gossip/38014-what-were-the-first-versions-of-dogfight-like
     
  2. PixelNecktie

    PixelNecktie

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    you had me at 10 million downloads. wow.
     
  3. fifthknotch

    fifthknotch

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  4. Graph

    Graph

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    I Accept;
    started project at 14th June 2014;
    current status: Alpha[80%]
    due to the tight constraints i had to cull a lot of features, including MP, social networking integration and focus on making it the best SP experience I can with the least amount of resistance.
    public reveal & beta are estimated to be ready within the week.
     
  5. zDemonhunter99

    zDemonhunter99

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    Who unstickied this? ;-;
     
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  6. Gigiwoo

    Gigiwoo

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    "Can you build an MMO with Unity?" Get ready for the flood of those ... Ah well.... 1000s have benefited. It was a good run.

    Gigi
     
  7. zDemonhunter99

    zDemonhunter99

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    Indeed it was. We can only hope that those who have benefited will carry on the legacy. :p
     
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  8. fifthknotch

    fifthknotch

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    Yes even I have benefitted though I never officially 'accepted' the challenge. Lots of good guidance in this forum.
     
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  9. casperjeff

    casperjeff

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    Well - 3 months later - game is published on Google Play - submitted to Amazon store and being prepped for IOS App store.

    Woot woot!!

    https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.greymatters.timetracer
     
  10. Gigiwoo

    Gigiwoo

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    After losing my dream job, I had a lot to consider. I’d literally traveled around the world and seen the inner workings of four AAA game studios before ending up back where I started. Along the way, I learned that even the biggest games were made by ordinary developers, just like me. So, when I got back, I accepted the '12-week challenge' and make the simplest game that inspired me. In the end, it involved thirteen weeks, 2600 lines of game-text, and eleven thousand lines of code - plus 2-weeks of hang-wringing waiting for Apple's approval. And now, my first solo game is live - "Tap Happy with Gigi"!

    Living the dream ... right here at home :).

    icon_200_trimmed.png

    Forum: http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/tap-happy-gigis-first-solo-game.267433/
    iOS Link: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/tap-happy-with-gigi/id902186223?mt=8

    Check it out on iOS and share some love in the forum thread :)
    Gigi
     
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  11. CH89

    CH89

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    I delayed my initial project for this challenge, but I took part in a two week game development challenge from a german YouTube channel. The challenge was to develop a multiplayer game (including all assets, sprites, sounds, etc). A friend of mine took the graphics part while I was developing the game and creating the sounds. The following YouTube video is also german, but let me give you a brief overview of the game:

    You play with a second player on one keyboard controlling one character. This character is a siamese twin with two heads, so each player controls a part of the character. You have to escape a laboratory. One player walks for/backwards, shoots, heals and ignites the bomb ability while the other player strafes, turns the character (which implies aming) reloads the weapon and initiates the charge ability.

    Download link for the game is in the video description:
     
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  12. Cobrryse

    Cobrryse

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    Thank you!, I suppose this reply is a little (or a lot) late, but no, I used all of my own assets. The "Infinite Runner" tutorial on Unity's website was very helpful though!
     
  13. imaginaryhuman

    imaginaryhuman

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    11,000 lines of code? Jeez. Way too much code. lol
     
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  14. radar089

    radar089

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    you said you can live from ball 3d, how so? advertising?
     
  15. MariuszKowalczyk

    MariuszKowalczyk

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    Things have changed since this post. Advertising would not let me earn enough, because I was forced to move the ads away from the game. Now I have an in-game shop and I earn money from the people buying coins. I have about 4000-4500 unique players per day.

    Soon I will make a standalone version, improve network code (I have found a way to make client side prediction using Unity builit-in physics) and graphics, then I have plans to put the game on Steam Greenlight.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2015
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  16. CarterG81

    CarterG81

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    What do you mean by this exactly?

    Also, congrats on your success!
     
  17. CarterG81

    CarterG81

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    What was this dream job? Something to do with Australia? Was it gamedev related or an entirely different dream? :p

    I tried looking through your blog, and couldn't find any info. I am always curious about people's dreams. Not that I'm a Cthulu dream devourer or anything. No way I'm totally just a curious human. *whistles the Cthulu dream devourer song*

    edit: Oh wait, just realized the linked article isn't new. It's like 14 months old. Figuring this out, I went FORWARD in blog time and found the answer. "Earlier this year, I lost my job. I pursued my dream to enter the AAA game industry, and maybe, like Icarus, I’d flown a bit too close to the sun". Blog here.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2015
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  18. Gigiwoo

    Gigiwoo

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    When someone Necro posts, a bit of super sleuthing may be required :).
    Gigi
     
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  19. AndrewGrayGames

    AndrewGrayGames

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    At least he fell for it and not me. I remember a few months ago, necroposts kept on getting me, almost to the point of it being a running gag.
     
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  20. darkhog

    darkhog

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    There are no impossible things. There is only lack of skills needed to complete the task.

    Also I've thought this thread was pinned. Why it isn't anymore?
     
  21. Gigiwoo

    Gigiwoo

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    Time marches on.
    Gigi
     
  22. darkhog

    darkhog

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    Still, this post can be applied to current time as well. There are still many MMO kids around here.
     
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  23. CastleIsGreat

    CastleIsGreat

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    Just finished my first full project, I started really learning coding in march and april, before then it had mostly just been basic coding and 3d modeling. ANYWAY, In april I started what would quickly become a very interesting idea, and now you get to see the end results!


    Its now available on android, and very soon on iOS (awaiting review still currently but should not be much longer). Theres a promo video on the google play page.

    https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.NaniteGamingStudio.TunnelFish

    Also a promo code for anyone who wants to try it :D
    Code: "tffun" - 50k fish flakes.
     
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  24. Gigiwoo

    Gigiwoo

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    Congratulations! You are now a game developer!

    Achievements Earned:

    • FINAL PUSH
    • RELEASED A TITLE
    New Goals Unlocked:
    • UPGRADE A GAME
    • MARKETING 101
    • GET 10 REVIEWS
    Congratulations on your major accomplishment. Take a moment to savor. It's a big deal. And, it's also the first step of many to come in your journey toward excellence. If you want feedback on how to improve your game, once it's released to iOS, consider posting to one of the FeedbackFriday threads in the Game Design forum.

    Gigi
     
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  25. CastleIsGreat

    CastleIsGreat

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    Thanks gigi, already have a few emails coming in on how to improve from several YouTube reviewers, and am starting to fix the little things they're catching.
     
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  26. theANMATOR2b

    theANMATOR2b

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    I believe this achievement should have already been earned. Releasing the first one can be done without that achievement, but it will cause the second one's D & D timeline to be extended. :)
     
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  27. jpthek9

    jpthek9

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    @Gigiwoo Thanks for this thread. I put my big RTS project on hold and I'm focusing on a smaller mobile game and an Asset Store product for now. If I do make an RTS game, it's going to be simpler, safer, and faster to produce.
     
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  28. WhendricSo

    WhendricSo

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    So, it's been a little over a year since I first visited this thread. And, what a year it's been!

    I put my big project on hold (and picked it up again several times) over the past year and it's been valuable to do so, since the tech I made in that leads me to...

    1. I developed a framework for Unity called "MultiGame"!! It's not on the Asset Store yet, as I am still writing the save/load system but it has over 140 separate components, many thousands of lines of code, and it is powerful enough that my artist friend was able to make a zombie game with it having zero programming knowledge. This thing is really, really cool!
    2. I released another game, called "Membrane" which scored highly in Ludum Dare 29 and impressed all my friends and testers.
    3. I started a community of game developers in my area, we meet once a week and talk about things game development and Unity related.
    4. I have made a number of excellent professional connections, some of whom are now helping me develop my next title which is definitely small enough in scope to be up and running in a month or two and already has a working prototype previously developed and already loved by a small but loyal (and growing) community

    This thread directly inspired me to make Membrane, which really showed me what I could accomplish in a very short time. It was made in just 6 hours (out of 24 available) and was played by thousands of people who mostly loved it.

    That was immensely valuable to me, playing the game with it's very satisfying physics and punishing difficulty definitely helps me feel that I can make exactly the type of games I want to play. Plus, it helped boost my confidence as a developer. Even though I didn't make a six-figure income from it, it shows me that I can in fact finish a game publicly and gain success from that. This helped me push through a grueling code block building a procedural dungeon generator for one of my prototypes and continues to help motivate me to finish prototypes and games in a short time frame.

    What about my main project? It's not going anywhere, you can follow it here.
     
  29. XCO

    XCO

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    Every APP Ive build so far I made in less than a month. But I have been using these games as a learning experience. Each APP has thought me something new...

    DDRD - My 1st Unity game (Thought me UNITY) lol
    BAT FLAP BAT - My 1st IOS release, thought me leader boards, certificates, IADS, uploading, a lot!! I made it in 3 days but implementing everything else took 3 weeks (But I learned a lot)
    7 KEYS TO HEAVEN - How to make a musical APP (I use to be a trance artist) (2.5 Weeks)
    POP n BLOCK - How to create a rolling ball using the TILT of the iPad or whatever (3 weeks)
    Ryu Kazuhiko - (My ultimate LOVE is fighting games, this thought a few things and am still very proud of the gameplay (But I hate the menus) (3.5 weeks)
    Natures Design - How to create a Design/Creation APP (And how to implement IN APP purchases) (4 weeks)
    GALAXY-X - Was not planing on making this game but started experimenting with "Revolving Gameplay" And am happy to say out of the thousands of games made with UNITY and million of games on the ios/droid market I am one of the few to use "Revolving Gameplay" :D (4 weeks)

    -------------------------------------------- (https://itunes.apple.com/us/artist/viki-roubin/id604588059)

    But non of them have been featured, or have had any success (Well I made Ryu Kazuhiko free for a month and it got like 100,000 Downloads, and the new Analytic feature in iTunes Connect shows it is still been viewed quite a bit, BUY IT PEOPLE, for the love of APPS Buy it ugggghhhhh) ... :|

    I am now working on my biggest game to date. A 2.5D action adventure game with a massive campaign mode and super slick graphics... This was the game I first wanted to release, But boy I'm glad I made all these little ones first. I would not be able to make the game I am making now had I not learned everything I know now.

    I am also planning on making it a FTT model (Free To Try) game. So Basically A demo with the option of purchasing the full game (not sure if anyone has ever referred to it as FTT but, ummm, yeah lol)

    I have been working on this game since NOV of last year. I am 85% complete. (8 months and counting)

    My Advice would be to stay true to yourself. Make something the you love but give yourself a schedule and push through those moments of artist BLOCK. But if you are a beginner, consider making a smaller game at first. I mean do whatever you want, but it helps to build up to things...
     
  30. ErisCaffee

    ErisCaffee

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    Never saw this thread before.

    I accept.

    I'll update when it's done.
     
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  31. ErisCaffee

    ErisCaffee

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    I realize now that this thread was seriously necro'd by a spammer, but I'm having a blast reading through it anyway.
     
  32. sb944

    sb944

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    I enjoyed the read too. One thing I was told recently (by someone far more successful than me) is to listen to those that have been there and done what you want. My problem has been I haven't been good at taking advice that differs to mine. My idea is to come up with a MVP that is actually pretty decent in scope, giving it's a sport game to finish by the next season start, March 2017. But I'm sold on this 12 week to release idea:
    • I think it's very possible to come up with the fun and feel I want in this game by then
    • It's far less overwhelming to release a lighter version
    • I get feedback before I've poured another 6 months into the project
    • I get to learn about the release cycle, which could only be good to work out well before next season start
    I'm in. Call it end of November to release to at least Android.
     
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  33. GarBenjamin

    GarBenjamin

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    It's great to see activity here again.

    It is interesting how different people use wildly different approaches. It seems that many start out with a huge scope and a long development schedule and then greatly reduce it for their next game dropping down to something like this suggested 3 months or less.

    I come from the opposite end where I generally focus on games I can complete in 1 to 3 and possibly 4 weeks working in a very part-time manner. Similar to @XCO above except I won't jump straight to a massive scope like that.

    I've just started focusing on making games again in the past few months. Before that I was doing a mix of a number of different experiments in Unity to create a structure and workflow that was highly optimized for me and checking out various other game engines and frameworks for both 2D and 3D game dev.

    I finally settled on using Unity (well about 80% anyway which is enough to switch focus to actually making games again) several months back and "perfecting" my workflow and project structure.

    In August I focused on making games. Completed the first one in 36 hours. Then took a week break. Started on a second game with a little bigger scope and completed that in 46 hours.

    Each game I also focus on improving the architecture. That's just something that will always happen to some degree. Each game I also focus on adding a bit more to the "foundation" that I can use in future games. Just little things. First game had in-game music and a scroller on title screen. Second game kept those, extended the scroller, added music on Title screen and added an animated FX on Title screen as well.

    I am on a slow iterative path. One of these days I will be at the point of spending 12 weeks on only one game. That works out to about 140 to 190 hours for me. So ~165 hours. Whew... that's a lot of time!

    I wonder how @XCO's massive game is coming along. Perhaps it was finished many months ago.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2016
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  34. Deleted User

    Deleted User

    Guest

    I was thinking about doing a top down, already done one and it didn't actually take that long.. Thing is it seems a lot of dev's make those sort of games so it kinda put me off.

    But it's just for fun so whatevere I guess.
     
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  35. ToshoDaimos

    ToshoDaimos

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    Moral of the story: reducing project scope is one the best ways to ensure that it will get done. I released two simple games before my current project and it was priceless experience.

    IMO, ultimately you should be able to schedule projects with one month precision and never miss a deadline.
     
  36. GarBenjamin

    GarBenjamin

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    If you use "a lot of other games along same line" as criteria for not doing the game sooner or later I think there will be no games you can do.

    I think the number of games certainly creates "noise" distractions so the more there are the more work it takes to get yours noticed. But I *think* the really important thing is just in making your game unique in some way.

    And that uniqueness could come from the story/atmosphere, the visuals, the mechanics etc. Like if you made a scaled down D3 kind of game and just tried to follow that basic mold it may compete with D2/D3, Torchlight, Path of Exile and probably more that I don't know about but if it is just different enough then it could become something that players of these games will also want to play.

    For me anyway I enjoy D3 but I don't have any interest in playing another game basically exactly like D3. A game that is similar with different classes and skills and focuses only on a piece of the larger game that I would check out. Like maybe it is some kind of Bounty Hunter game where all I as a player have to do is go to town (the one and only town) and read a bounty board to get next bounty. Then I head to the plains or a cave or wherever to complete the bounty. That'd be different enough to be interesting.

    Especially if it had bounties/missions like rescue so and so, find the staff of whatchmado, escort so and so to the other side of the mountain... things like that in addition to just kill guardian X and kill x amount of whatchamacallits.

    Just a little more stuff (even in an overall greatly scaled down scope) and it makes the game unique and worth checking out. I think anyway.

    EDIT: Major bonus points if it also took advantage of the overall reduced scope to innovate in some other areas. Like instead of D3 style always on foot maybe at some point player can earn a horse or a dragon or perhaps even a flying carpet. Something to make travel faster. And if combat can be done while using that "mount" even better. Now it's practically a completely different game with something very unique to make people check it out.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2016
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  37. Deleted User

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    I'd probably go more down the old fallout route, I wouldn't even need to make a "scaled down" D3..

    I've made very large prototypes (of FPS / TPS RPG type games) and there is one consistent thing, it's not difficult (at all really) it is VERY time consuming. It's akin to stacking shelves at a supermarket. The engines (well most large modern engines) are largely irrelevent, the code is mainly irrelevant (plenty of examples out there and frameworks)..

    It's the years of constant repetition, once you understand how to model based on real life stuff then it ain't difficult. But for it to look right and interesting, you have to keep constantly banging away. If you make a larger game of a certain quality then that quality level is expected to be kept up, so you spend ridiculous amounts of time tweaking. Doing "admin" work as such.

    Like setting up characters takes ages, you have cloth / IK / AI (from profiles of course, not new AI for every char), facial animations and blendshape animations (just animations in general which is generally 1 cycle = 1 hour), triggers for the thousands of events, UI for every event, text for most events, audio to facial matching for most spoken interactions. It just NEVER ends.!

    It's all the stuff that hardly get's mentioned as well, like waiting for lighting to bake.. Blocking out level's, decal's, touch up's.. Constantly watching to see if what you've done doesn't have a "bug" or misnomer, where one of your 500 NPC's might start doing a little dance (like they do often in POE). Two weeks worth of art many times is equivalent to 3 minutes game play (if that a lot of times)..

    You can kind of get away with it in game like POE, all these sub par transitions and odd AI behaviours / bad navmesh etc. but when it's stuck two inches in front of your face everyone can see it clear as day. Trying to weed out all this rubbish is beyond time consuming.

    Again, you do the fundamentals then it's just rinse and repeat add infinity.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 21, 2016
  38. GarBenjamin

    GarBenjamin

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    @ShadowK I completely get that and it is why I just have no interest in going down that road. Although I am not experienced in all of these specific tasks in the workflow of a huge 3D game the huge project / super high quality product part I am. That is the stuff of my day jobs. Large scopes. Continual iteration and refinement toward perfection.

    I do some of it... a tiny bit... in my personal projects but in general I just have a very different goal here and scope of work changes accordingly.

    It is that constant repetition doing and redoing the same work again and again... well heck I have done that in the past a lot... it just comes with game dev or creative work in general I think..... but it is exactly that I am trying to eliminate.

    It's just too dang time consuming although it does produce highly polished stuff at the end.
     
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  39. GarBenjamin

    GarBenjamin

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    The tiny scope games are definitely a great thing. Of course, actually being completed is probably the most important part and probably the biggest reason why I've always targeted tiny. Beyond that, another big factor is these tiny games can be revisited at any time in the future to increase the scope. I think about that a lot.

    Like my last game has a wizard roaming around a maze collecting treasures, fighting baddies, destroying their spawners, ultimately getting the key and unlocking the exit so they can go on to the next room and do the same thing only in a little more challenging level.

    It's a tiny scope and a good bit of fun. A complete game although it get repetitious after many levels or several games back to back. At some point I can revisit this and easily make it a better game. Adding a few unique enemy types scattered across the 16 levels. Say a new enemy type that appears on level 3 or 4. And then another on level 8 and another on level 12.

    And then I could add a simple inventory screen and let the player pick up gear along the way. So they could find different weapons and armor. Or I can add a leveling experience so player starts at character level 1 and they gain experience as they fight through the levels. Add a simple character screen to allow them to assign points to health, speed and magic.

    The thing about tiny scope games is there is so much potential. A person can take their tiny games and easily scale up in several different ways. I mean of course we can gut and refactor any project but it is dead easy starting with a very solid tiny game as base. Actually wouldn't be that hard to take the same tiny game and turn it into multiple bigger games.

    Just throwing this out as another thing to consider.
     
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  40. Gigiwoo

    Gigiwoo

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    Heard of Purple Cow, by Seth Gooding? Basically - if you were driving in the country, you'd see lots of cows, then, over the hill, you'd spot this purple one! And you'd text your friends, take pics, and tweet it. So, build that. And, I became a believer, I created a bunch of unique products. Then, over time, I learned that uniqueness is REALLY hard, plus, it has one major drawback. Uniqueness is rarely what people are looking for. What customers want is something similar to what they already love, with a few unique things thrown in to keep it fresh.

    If the requirement for creativity was 'uniqueness', there'd be no new movies, music, or games.

    Gigi
     
  41. Deleted User

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    Guest

    It's not so much about "unique", it's more about market saturation. It's not a secret that the smaller the scope the easier it is to achieve, therfore more dev's will do it.

    Although yes, even within smaller scope simpler genre's like D3 type games gem's will still shine. Just like POE which for all it's technical flaws I personally believe it's the better game to play.. The issue with RPG's in general is there's a lot of story to be told, whether it be spoken or environmental and that equates to "lot's of work"..

    So it might be better compacting it down into a top down vastly simplifying the technical repetition.. Appreciate the feedback by the way!.. It's always nice to get it out of your head and discuss.
     
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  42. sb944

    sb944

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    40
    I'm still doing this, and still aiming at an end of November deadline, here is my current feelings:
    • It's a good feeling to know I'll be facing common problems sooner. Like I could spend a couple of months to work on one particular side of the project, and be completely blind sided by something that was coming later, while doing things the wrong way. That will still happen, but I'll be spending days, or a couple of weeks doing the wrong thing, not months.
    • Another similar example, is just getting the marketing/build/polish done a lot sooner. I understand better what a huge deal marketing is now, and how it can actually shape the product somewhat. This wouldn't have happened until I'd spent a lot more months working in code that wasn't really relevant to success.
    • And I guess to glue those two points together, the ultimate point to all this is that as coders we dream up a game, and just as quickly dream up how successful and crazy good it will be. But, without the experience of knowing what you can only know by finishing a/some products, you might spend a very long time driving towards a goal that isn't realistic for whatever reasons. But with actual games released and out there, and some reflection on what worked and didn't, you should more clearly go forward on your next changes or products, without investing way too much time moving in the wrong direction.
    • I saw mentioned that having other completed products was a big key to a successful product. I think I get this a lot now. Like I thought it would be fairly easy to get some collaboration/mentoring through this process, but have come to realise I haven't yet earned the respect you need to get people to be giving you some of their time and energy. But if I go to someone in 6 months, and show that I have 2 products that are doing well, and have an idea for a 3rd, or an extension to one of those, they should be far more willing to give you the time of day.

    On a final note, I was reading a magazine released here in Australia, and it was detailing the state of mobile game development in Australia. They brought up the story of someone who spent a year building, paying for tools, assets, advertising, etc, etc, and got 100 downloads in the first couple of months. A few streets away, some other developers knocked up a prototype in 6 weeks time, that is 90% of how the product still works, Crossy Road, 120 million downloads. It makes you think, if you can't make a fun and interesting prototype in 6-12 weeks, will spending a lot more time, money and effort really make it that much more fun and interesting?
     
  43. Martin_H

    Martin_H

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    If it doesn't, you are doing it wrong, imho.

     
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  44. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Really? If you can't make a fun prototype in 12 weeks then adding polish and content to it isn't going to help. Iteration on the core concept definitely helps, but if you can't hone an idea into the general vicinity of "fun" in 12 weeks then I think either the idea just doesn't work or that's where you're "doing it wrong".
     
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  45. Martin_H

    Martin_H

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    True. I just noticed that I misread the line I've quoted. I read it as "if you can make a fun", my apologies. The point I was trying to make is that imho polish is really important and that I believe that even the simplest looking game concepts like Angry Birds, Candy Crush, Crossy Roads, etc., most likely will have staggering amounts of dev hours worth of polish and testing behind them. I often see people here argue that that kind of polish is a waste of time (and mistakenly I thought that was the point @sb944 is trying to make too) and I strongly disagree. I think the 1 to 10 time ratio of prototyping to polishing that Rami proposes in his talk sounds more reasonable. I do agree with you that there's no point in polishing a turd, and that the core concept needs to be strong first!

    A little anecdote that I'm reminded of: My girlfriend recently showed me a new zoo-themed clicker game she was playing, and literally everything she showed me that she liked about the game was polish-related. Like how the pandas sometimes wear cute hats, or roll around on the floor like the panda in "Shirokuma Café" does, or how the pigs look a bit tired, when you've collected bacon from them, but they're happy again once you feed them, and stuff like that. I asked her what the game was called and she said "I don't know, Happy Day or Happy Zoo or something like that". Neither was correct by the way.
    And that's not the only time I've heard someone explicitly mention the "polish on the skinnerbox" (without using those terms or being aware what they are really talking about) as key factor for their interest in a game.
     
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  46. JohnnyA

    JohnnyA

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    @Martin_H I don't think thats entirely true although its maybe true more often that not.

    There are hundreds of popular yet unpolished mobile games (hardest game/impossible quiz/flappy birds/etc).

    They have some very basic level of polish (consistency), but these sort of games almost revel in their lack of polish.
     
  47. GarBenjamin

    GarBenjamin

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    Well I think the general rule of 10:1 for polishing:developing is pretty reasonable.

    Even Flapp Bird looks to me like it follows this ratio (as well as can be expected). I don't know how much time the dev spent on it but I could see the core game being created in 1 to 2 hours.

    And then another 10 to 20 hours spent on polish. Sounds, graphics (including palette choices), control, collisions (which seem very precise in FB from what I've seen and probably one of the reasons people became addicted to it... super hard but also very fair), the scoring, the balance of vertical adjustment on the openings between the pipes, etc. So maybe 2 to 3 days for the average person to make this game complete with about a 10:1 polish ratio.

    Sure more could have been done such as bunch of feathers flying when FB crashes and so on. You can always polish more and more and more but it'd be overkill. Wasn't needed.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2016
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  48. JohnnyA

    JohnnyA

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    Flappy maybe on the higher end of the lower end but there is a fairly popular genre of mobile games that consist of heaps of (typically difficult) unpolished mini games. They definitely don't fit 10:1. I think it was on one of your threads that I saw a video review of Super Wagon Adventure which also fits this kind of model.

    Point being that this rule is far from mandatory for success, particularly in the context of small indie games. Correlation does not imply causation and all that.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2016
  49. GarBenjamin

    GarBenjamin

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    I think we all see different things when we look at... anything. When I look at Super Amazing Wagon Adventures to me it looks like a highly polished game.



    Again based on the core game design and presentation style that were chosen. It's a satire of Oregon Trail and never takes itself serious. Even down to not animating wagon wheels and so forth.
     
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  50. JohnnyA

    JohnnyA

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    We must, I mean its not total crap but to me it looks like they went with whatever decision in terms of writing, art, controls, etc that first fell in to their head. I do think the people who made those decisions were experienced, with a good sense of what they wanted to achieve, but I can't see them labouring over many of these choices. Could be totally wrong though.

    EDIT: To be clear I I think theres an element missing in this game loop vs polish view, content is a third element which isn't part of the core loop but also isn't part of polish either. There's quite a lot of content in this game.
     
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