Search Unity

Switching to Blender, what should I expect?

Discussion in 'External Tools' started by FlyingRobot, Apr 2, 2014.

  1. Darksider

    Darksider

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2013
    Posts:
    48
  2. BrainMelter

    BrainMelter

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Posts:
    572
    Yeah I'd say the UI was pretty unconventional before 2.6. But I'm fine with the UI after 2.6. It feels plenty "normal" to me.

    The right mouse picking thing is a little strange at first, but there's a reason for it (ie. modeless vs modal tools).
     
  3. Mr.T

    Mr.T

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Posts:
    546
    As far as I remember Blender 2.5 was the watershed.
    Everything 2.49 and previous was the old confusing UI. The present one might not be comparable to Commercial 3d modelling programs but is a huge improvement.

    Blender 2.49 - the old UI

    $800px-Blender_2.49b_init_factory.png



    Blender 2.5 and above - the NEW UI

    $Blender2.5_45mill.jpg
     
  4. TheDMan

    TheDMan

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Posts:
    201
    I've been a Modo user since the 2xx days. The reason why I stick with using it (even when I evaluate other modeling tools from time to time) is speed in modeling. You can do lots of things, key things to modeling, very rapidly in Modo. So for me I choose it because I can do things super fast which saves me time. But yeah, their merger with Foundry has made me weary too. We'll see if they'll mess everything up or not, and whether Modo users will be leaving to old things like LightWave/Max/Maya or various other packages like Blender, etc.
     
  5. snowconesolid

    snowconesolid

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2011
    Posts:
    868
    I have been using blender for nearly 4 years for all my game development and other cg related stuff now from earlier builds all the way to the newest 2.70 build.

    I might be a bit biased because I am a huge blender fan boy, but I have only good things to say about it. First, I think the UI is great, I don't understand why so many people complain about it. Blender has pretty much almost every feature and even more probably thats available in mainstream software packages like 3ds and maya. So I would say its definitely a competitor with those other big softwares. Blender in rapidly improving with each new release. I have been following it through out the years and it has come such a long way with so much more power and features than it had 4 years ago when I first started using it. I don't want to get into a big wall of text because I can type up pages of all the features blender has. So check it out for yourself.

    but yeah you can do whatever it is you need to do in blender, create anything. Its a full out 3d software tool and even more. It is worth the time learning.

    Just remember, in the end it doesn't matter what tool you use, what matters is if you can accomplish your end goal or whatever it is your trying to create with the knowledge you picked up.

    It is just a tool. Its like how everyone on the gossip part of the forum has been recently arguing about which game engine they should use. It doesn't matter, pick whichever one you can reach your end goal with.
     
  6. FlyingRobot

    FlyingRobot

    Joined:
    May 5, 2012
    Posts:
    451
    Modo is cool. I own it and love working with it. I'm sure they are working to get the fbx based game pipeline going. But I also fear, it's going to be more costly. Till now the Brad P factor is working, trying to keep Modo affordable to the masses. But it's quickly getting out of reach and for little reason. Ver 701 was pitched over the animation and particles factor. Practically both are WIP. You can't even playblast effectively. They released MeshFusion, cool. But $400 for a fancy pro-boolean?

    Another thing I've always missed with Modo is their reluctance towards Game Developers as their user base is mainly centered around product design kinda stuff. And there are customers of MeshFusion there.

    Modo can be a real good game art development platform. If they have little love for the indie game devs. I still can't export selected to fbx, It requires very little work from the developers and they are not listening. And that's not cool.
     
  7. Tiles

    Tiles

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2010
    Posts:
    2,473
    Huh? Is my english really this bad? It is true. And still fits my original statement. This ctrl+tab menu is not accessible from anywhere else but a hotkey. It is one of those hidden functionalities without a menu entry. One of those things where you never have a chance to find it out by yourself when nobody tells you about. Which is bad UI design. A tool needs a menu entry. And that is what i have said and always meant. There is no change in what i mean, no change in what i say. Just a change in how you understand it it seems.

    Anyways, i hope it is clear now how it is meant. If not, feel free to ask.

    Oh, so you never needed an intro for your game? Okay :)

    The told tools were just examples. They jumped first into my mind. I could have also mentioned normalmap baking, which is a bit quirky here and there. Or the limited texture painting. You do texture painting for your game needs, do you? :)

    The fluid sim in Blender is not bad. But it is by no means a substitute for industry standards like Realflow. And that's the whole dilemma of Blender in general. The tools are good. They do an excellent job for a hobbyist. But the professional tools does the better job. And this becomes a competition problem then.

    Sculpting for example. Do yourself a favour and try tools like 3D Coat, or when you can afford it, ZBrush. And then let's talk about sculpting again when your Blender sculpting starts to stutter at 500k polys while the same sculpt runs fine with 5 megapolys at the same pc with another software. I am not even talking about the usability here.

    In Blender i have to bend my mesh so that the IK of Blender knows in what direction it has to bend when it is rigged. Blender heavily dislikes a straight t-pose. As told, it's the only bones system that i know where you have to pose the model first before you rig it.

    The good news is, you can get your job done in Blender. And it is free. I can fully recommend it to every hobbyist. I use it by myself, more or less happily. The bad news is that Blender is still no substitute for Maya, Max, Cine, etc. . The commercial useage of Blender as a substitute for Maya or Max is a nice dream. I know this dream since i know Blender, over 10 years. And since over 10 years nothing has changed really. It's the same propaganda, and the industry ignores Blender as usual. It will most probably stay a nice dream as long as Blender is open source, even when Blender would really catch up with the big boys feature wise.

    Blender is not bad. It is just not best. For hobby needs Blender is a no brainer. But when you go the commercial route then you still have to think twice if you bet at Blender. What you also have to consider here is that the studios still requires skills in the big boys. Knowledge in Blender doesn't count.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2014
  8. sandboxgod

    sandboxgod

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2013
    Posts:
    366
    Thank God cause the current UI is beyond awful too me (I'm a spoiled Windows user)
     
  9. TheDMan

    TheDMan

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Posts:
    201
    I think Blender definitely could be a serious contender if they focused more on certain key aspects to make them better (like the ones you have stated). I think many of Blenders downfalls are due to trying to do too many differing things from the development side, like them adding a game engine into it, which really, they should just drop and focus on the tools itself.

    They could easily compete with the big players if they got down to the nitty gritty, listened to the experienced modelers and animators and see what really ticks them off when using Blender vs another package. Sure the UI isnt the greatest, but then again neither is ZBrush's, but ZBrush's tools are outstanding so people overlook the terrible UI.
     
  10. FlyingRobot

    FlyingRobot

    Joined:
    May 5, 2012
    Posts:
    451
    Ya, you are right. But coming from commercial software like XSI and Modo, I know a tool when it's working right. Without prejudice. I'm a fan boy of XSI perhaps, but not Blender. XSI has it's little compositor Fx Tree, which most of us have never heard, it's the most integrated compositor with a DCC. You can feed composed to animated textures in XSI. And nobody heard of it. Anyway...

    I'm done with the big corps. And with my limited experience of this world I've learned they are good at one thing over anything, is to lie to get rich.

    So, I'm not taking Maya better than Blender because ADSK says so or any big game dev house says so. Not at face value. Not anymore.
     
  11. Ricks

    Ricks

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2010
    Posts:
    647
    Did I miss something? They want to change the 2.5+ UI again?
     
  12. Dantus

    Dantus

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2009
    Posts:
    5,667
    They are intensively working on the UI at the moment. It is not a new one, but they are improving it systematically to improve workflows and increase the consistency.
     
  13. Tiles

    Tiles

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2010
    Posts:
    2,473
    Yes and no. There was this little revolution by Andrew Price. And as a result they finally started to develop at the Ui again. The UI development was more or less stopped for around two years. But it will mainly be low hanging fruits like adding tabs in the nearer future.

    @FlyingRobot, when you don't need to go the commercial route, then good luck with Blender. It's not this bad at all :)
     
  14. lmbarns

    lmbarns

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2011
    Posts:
    1,473
    As a programmer maya's interface seems way too complex to do anything. Blender had some hickups, but once you dedicate time to learning it, it becomes amazing.

    My favorites are not just decimate modifier for reducing polygons, but the dissolve tool is amazing as well. Texturing even gets a lot easier when you figure out the hotkeys.
     
  15. Dantus

    Dantus

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2009
    Posts:
    5,667
    Did you recently have a look at:
    https://developer.blender.org/maniphest/project/12/

    If you just have a look at the topics that only have the "User Interface" tag, you will see that lots of productive work takes place to improve it. Of course the progress is slow, but steady.
     
  16. Ricks

    Ricks

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2010
    Posts:
    647
    I see. Just watched Andrew Price's presentation and really like his suggestions. Hopefully some of these come true.
     
  17. TheSniperFan

    TheSniperFan

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2013
    Posts:
    686
    It won't because it was rejected.

    Part of why it was, is this here:
    Now, if you're a programmer, let this sink in for a moment. If not, just skip to the rant.

    ###WARNING! ANGRY RANT AHEAD!###
    What the actual F*** is he talking about?
    A good UI is not an independent layer that can be peeled off and replaced with another interface? That's bullshit right there. There's quite a few good reasons why it is terrible coding practice not to separate the UI from the rest in such large projects. I could list them, but I just need the one that he gave right there: You'll end up being stuck with it, no matter how bad it is.
    Seriously, if you start rejecting useful features because you cannot fit them in your UI, the UI is not good.
    ###END OF RANT###

    Anyway, I hope they eventually get this sorted out some day.
    Another proposal that apparently vanished was "Viewport FX". If you don't know: The viewport performance of blender is terrible. This proposal would have fixed that and added quite a few useful features. Haven't heard of it for a long time... :(
     
  18. Dantus

    Dantus

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2009
    Posts:
    5,667
    @TheSniperFan, the proposal of Andrew Price was not though through. It was made for one kind of workflow and didn't consider a huge amount of details that would have hardly fit into it. He realized that the proposal was not solid enough. But thanks to this proposal, the UI became an actual topic. Right now there is a really productive momentum and if they keep it up, we are going to see lots of really good improvements.
    Regarding the implementation of the UI, many will agree that it is too data driven and too tightly integrated. But it makes sense that the people who work with the code make those decisions and not others. And that was the decision they made.

    We got pretty off topic, sorry.
     
  19. nipoco

    nipoco

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2011
    Posts:
    2,008
    I don't know. Most game intros nowadays are done in realtime graphics.
    Blender fluids are not Realflow or Naiad yes. But you still can get decent results with it.


    I own Zbrush and know that Blender's sculpting is by no means comparable with it. I personally don't use Blender's sculping that much. And still it is better than any other sculpting tool in a commercial DCC like Cinema 4d, or Modo.

    The thing is, if you create game content, you never rely on just one software. No matter if you use Maya, 3DS Max, or whatever. You still use stuff like Zbrush, Mudbox, Substance Painter, Xnormal etc.
    Why is that so for commercial software? You would assume, that something that cost around 5000 bucks, comes with all bells and whistles. And yet you have to buy tons of commercial plug-in's and you're in need for 3rd party software. Maya LT's turtle baking for example is.. well. Or the full Maya suite. Nearly nobody uses the vanilla version of Maya...

    Anyways. I like Blender. It has it's weak points, but I have yet to see the perfect software. For my professional needs, it is enough.

    And I understand the OP's reasonings.
    Buying from Autodesk is something I would absolutely avoid. Not because of the prices, but because of AD's policies. Just read their terms of use and you will feel a urge to gag.
    And what they did with XSI shows how F***ed up they are :rolleyes:
     
  20. techmage

    techmage

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2009
    Posts:
    2,068
    I was displaced by Autodesk back when they bought Maya. They didn't kill Maya, but by version 2010 I could tell Maya had lost its prior glory under ADSK and I started to look elsewhere. Interestingly my next choice was XSI, and the very week I pricing out licenses of XSI to buy, Autodesk bought Softimage, and then I decided to not go with Softimage right then.

    So I ran on a bit of a detour through a bunch of different stuff trying to find something new. I've been bouncing back and forth between Modo and Cinema4D. Slightly leaning more towards Cinema4D as a main app.

    Pros of C4D:
    -Very very stable. C4D is probably the most stable 3D app I've ever used.
    -Lots of usability testing and refinement of user experience, everything generally works as you expect, no weird quirky gotchas where you have to go research some oddity of the programs design on a forum for an hour to figure out how to use something that should be obvious. C4D I think is really the leader in this, someone highly experienced in 3D can probably jump into C4D and start using everything fluently with very little consultation to the Manual.
    -Really awesome tools for laying out architectural scenes, easy to keep things organized in large scenes.
    -Great snapping and duplicators.
    -Good architectural modeling tools.
    -Easy and stable character animation tools.

    Cons of C4D:
    -Baking functionalities suck. (Vray4C4D is supposed to support baking at some point, but thats even more cost)
    -You simply cannot do projection map baking (i.e. one object to a completely different object normal map generation).
    -All the modeling tools are simplistic in comparison to something like Modo, I feel less in control when modeling complex poly objects and doing UV's in C4D.
    -Full C4D license is $3500, license upgrades are like $1000.


    Modo Pro's
    -Currently only $1700
    -Best poly modelling, retopo and UV toolset. Best for dealing with really complex poly objects and UV's.
    -Baking is awesome, can do projection map baking, produce passes really easily.
    -The workflow for modeling a single object, setting up materials and lighting, then rendering or baking it is extremely refined. I think you can probably model, texture, UV, bake and export singular objects to Unity in Modo faster than any other package.

    Modo Cons:
    -Unstable. It crashes when it really shouldn't. It's not so bad its a deal breaker, but you do get into the habit of saving things before you click a button your unsure about.
    -There are a few 'gotchas', things that don't work as you expect them. However Modo is still better in this regard than every other 3D app except C4D I think.
    -Some things are way over-engineered and really have a steep learning curve to use. This isn't entirely bad, but you will need to consult the manual. Once you get your mind around it though, you feel very in control of your geometry.
    -The snapping system is quirky. (but gets better each version)
    -Laying out large architectural scenes is not a good idea with how Modo currently works, it gets very tedious and difficult to manage.


    So thats the current state of C4D and Modo I think. Personally I am thinking future updates will lessen the Cons of each program, I am really waiting to see what Modo 801 has before putting anymore money anywhere.

    Modo 801 might be REALLY good. There is talk that now that they are with Foundry, they have access to much more intensive QA process, and technical know-how. Some people have postulated that this means Modo 801 will probably be much more stable that prior releases. If the stability issues of Modo can be fixed, and they can improve the methods of laying out and managing large architectural scenes I think Modo will really be the way to go. However if Modo 801 does not make a serious step to better large scene management and improved stability, I am probably going to start putting more resource to C4D.

    As for the future of C4D. If they got better baking functionality put into C4D that would probably be sufficient for me to go all C4D. The somewhat simpler modeling toolset of C4D is a minor setback I think when you take into account how stable and refined the user experience of C4D is. Really enough can't be said about this aspect of C4D, it's awesome to not have to be paranoid about saving files constantly, or clicking the wrong button and breaking something in your scene that doesn't make any sense. But maybe Modo 801 will be better in this same regard, if not I am probably not going to update my Modo license.

    As for the price difference between C4D and Modo. Each release Modo raises the price, Modo also has additional 'module' packs. I think in another release or two, Modo will not be any cheaper than C4D.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2014
  21. goat

    goat

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2009
    Posts:
    5,177
    I'd like to know where you get the time and money to be using learning Modo, XSI, etc, etc,...

    Blender's UI is actually an advantage over MAX Maya - Go to YouTube and do David Ward's tutorials that you like and use the Bender Shortcut template - I set that template as my PC background (I attach my slate to a external monitor so I have 2 screens.) I 3 months of diligent practice (2 - 4 hours a day - a big commitment for 3 months!) you will leave the paid commercial versions of 3D modeling SW behind.
     
  22. Beardbotnik

    Beardbotnik

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2013
    Posts:
    49
    When was the last time you used Blender's texture painting? You can make custom brushes and the brushes already in it are incredibly customizable. There is a plugin for layer management and you have masking by selection and wrap if you want to make seamless tilable textures.

    I was able to paint this is Blender pretty easily using the basic brushes without adjustments


    And texture painting only gets easier with the brushes you can get here.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nv-_d2p2Z9w

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00HWY28YJsM

    Currently I feel like the biggest hurdle is setting up the material, but 2.71 and gsoc paint builds already have it set up so it's set up much better.

    As for the IK stuff, I don't know it that's really a big problem. Blender has rotation constraints and generally you will set up elbow and knee controllers that will be naturally fix wrong rotations on their own. It might be a problem with T-Pose, but I was always taught to model and rig game models in a more relaxed position that is closer to the actions the character is likely to do, so I've never really had a problem with rigging yet personally.
     
  23. c-Row

    c-Row

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2009
    Posts:
    799
    2.6 I think. Switched to Cheetah3D instead and never regretted it.


    Well, just because there are worse doesn't mean Blender's UI is good. ;)
     
  24. FlyingRobot

    FlyingRobot

    Joined:
    May 5, 2012
    Posts:
    451
    Thank you all for all the inputs. I'm off to buy a CGCookie Subscription and dig deep into Blender.
     
  25. Tiles

    Tiles

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2010
    Posts:
    2,473
    Nipoco, I also know where the OP comes from with moving away from AD. It's just that he shouldn't expect to have a magical increase really with this switch. All the packages have their pros and cons. And so does Blender. Blender has a few more cons than the big boys though. The big boys are the big boys for good reason. To switch to Blender is no magical solution to the AD dilemma. It's definitely no upgrade from Maya or XSI to Blender. That one's imho a downgrade. And when he wants to go the commercial route, then he doesn't do a favor to himself really.

    That one's the good thing. The team started to develop the UI again. But there is still the statement that just "low hanging fruits" will get maintained. See tabs for the scrolling dilemma.

    The current UI group is made of nearly the same people who made the current GUI. The same GUI with all this slowdowners, quirks and inconsistencies. Yes, the Blender 2.5x and higher GUI is definitely better than the one from 2.49 and lower. But there is still lots of space for improvement. So they made it better. But they didn't make it good nor best. Those folks have imho no clue what a really good graphical UI is, sorry to say that. It's still mainly programmers art, not GUI design.

    And the bad thing is, they don't even see that. More the opposite. At the Blender conference Ton has told Andrew that Andrew has no clue what he is talking about, that the current UI is fine, and that the Blender staff has lots of UI experts already. At least he agreed to continue the UI development. Ton really lives in its own world. Which is most of the times a good thing. One has to lead and to do the decisions. And that way he is always 100% behind his product. But in the UI question i would wish for more understanding what his artists really needs and wants.

    Sure, the proposal of Andrew was no go. His conclusion was wrong. And you cannot change a existing UI radically. So in this point Ton was right to slap Andrew a bit around. But the points that Andrew has told remains true. And still needs a fix, and not only at the low hanging fruits.

    So, they fixed a first low hanging fruit in 2.7. They wanted to reduce the scrolling. And again they made it worse. The tabs steals again screen space. The vertical tabs are hard to read. Icons would have been a good thing here. But who listens to artists. And what about tooltips so that you don' t have to make a screenshot, and rotate it, to read what is at those tabs? And you still have to scroll ...

    /end of Rant

    I still really hope that they have understood some things. But as you may have noticed in the upper rant, i am a bit pessimistic here :)

    And when was the last time you used something else than Blender for texture painting? Or Modeling? Or animation? Or rendering? And i don't mean having a look at it for five minutes and then automatically dislike it because it is not Blender. I mean to use it in production for several days and weeks, or even months and years. How can you really compare when you don't know the other tools? :)

    In the past i did the main texture work in my 2D software, i am used to the traditional approach. But i use the texture painting in Blender regularly for stuff like cleaning up seams since several years. At the moment i am at migrating to 3D Coat for texture painting. It comes with a fine layer system and lots of features that you can find in Photoshop, but not in Blender. You can paint any kind of maps from diffuse across specular up to normalmaps directly onto the mesh. It's not really comparable to the limited system that you can find in Blender. That one's another level.

    Your image shows just a very basic comic style character. It looks fine. But you cannot judge the texture paint ability of a software by that, sorry. There's no AO at this character, no normalmap, no specular, the surface is flat and unstructured and very basic, and requires one layer only, and so on. And that's where texture painting really starts.

    Add to that that the realtime preview in Blender is cruel to say the least. Which makes it even harder to do a really good texture painting for a game character. Turn on glsl, make a shot, import the same character into Unity, make a second shot, compare those two shots, and you will see what i mean. Well, maybe not with this primitive game character that you show here. But with a more advanced game character with normalmap and all the stuff you definitely will notice a big difference.
     
  26. nipoco

    nipoco

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2011
    Posts:
    2,008
    Indeed. Blender is not as advanced as Maya in lots of spaces. And the open source approach has also its drawbacks. I also agree that Ton is a stubborn dude :p

    However, I think Blender serves very well in most cases, if you are a game artist, that operates mostly in the indie field. If you want to work in the industry, or make something with movies, you're better off with Maya. I would even choose it over Modo, because there is no alternative.

    I gotta agree here.
    Blender's texture painting is very basic if you compare that with 3dCoat, Mudbox, or Substance Painter. And the workflow is not optimal. You can get things done. But not in the most efficient way.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2014
  27. Tiles

    Tiles

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2010
    Posts:
    2,473
    Yep, that's the nice thing at Blender. In the end you get your job done :)
     
  28. Darkoo

    Darkoo

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2013
    Posts:
    96
    I've been working with Maya for many years, before that I had about 2 years of experience with Max. Tried out Maya and I "hated" it, mostly because I got frustrated over not understanding it. I dropped it and moved on with Max for a while, picked it up again after a few months but this time I gave it a few weeks. Once I picked up the overall workflows and shortcuts I started loving Maya more and more, now I can not stand the sight of Max.

    A couple months ago I tried the same thing with blender. Having the experience of moving from one 3d package to another I had the knowledge of how I should go about learning a new 3d Package. But I truly did not have the same luck with blender. Forgetting about the shortcuts since that is just something that can be learned and tweaked to your need, but it's workflow is by far the worst thing I guess mostly because of the UI.

    I have checked out some videos on 2.7, might try it out again but there seems not to be a big change there.
     
  29. FlyingRobot

    FlyingRobot

    Joined:
    May 5, 2012
    Posts:
    451
    Well, I'm not expecting texture painting performance like substance or anything in Blender. Actually no DCC has the ability to do that.

    If it can do like this I'm more than happy. Even if I can lay out the basic textures and colors or even as vertex colors.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrApuPOayoU

    3D coat or substance, even Mari doesn't offers the flexibilty of manipulating the poly or vertex and recreate UVs etc while painting. It's a linear process. You make a high res, a low poly, bake maps and use PS or substance to do color and layer effects over it. But if you can re adjust models while painting, you can go back and forth and that's good.

    Move from XSI to Blender is downgrading. Yes. But I have downgraded my expectations too. :) Let's see if this migartion works out in that way.
     
  30. goat

    goat

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2009
    Posts:
    5,177
    I know professionals create high poly models and high res textures and then the lower level of detail versions to actually use in games but I prefer creating low res and poly from the start that will actually be used in games. I realize professionals will never ewww ahhh at my work that's not the point. If you are a producing professional that produces for the big game houses than I understand the requirement to use Max or Maya and produce the complex geometry models but not as an indy making any type game in Unity.
     
  31. Ricks

    Ricks

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2010
    Posts:
    647
    After investigating the real changes (not the ones from Mr Price) I can only agree - they made it worse. That's really disappointing. If I ever gain enough income from a game the first thing I'll do is get C4D (which I tried long ago and remembered very well) so the open source madness is over.

    That said blender is a good tool for basic modelling, animating, texturing - a tool which gets done all of these tasks from start to finish. There is another thing to mention though: some programs have a clear separation between the modelling and animation process. Blender is a program that has no real separation, e.g. so you want to animate your model and some polygons are wrong? Well just change it on the fly and switch back to the animation. In comparison to that other applications e.g. Lightwave forces you to open 2 different application types (a modeller and and an animator). They basically want you to add animations only then, when all of your modelling and texturing process is 100% complete. And not a second earlier.

    Therefore in blender the line between these different workacts is blurred and may lead to "dirty workpractise". The same happens when you use blender as a game engine: you get used to "control and manipulate everything at every time" - and when you suddenly come to Unity3d you feel somehow "limited" because you can't just manipulate everything anymore. In my opinion this "limitation" however leads to a cleaner workact over time, allowing cleaner labor division.
     
  32. goat

    goat

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2009
    Posts:
    5,177
    All you've basically said is whatever product you use you have to know how to use it - blaming not knowing how to use Blender on Blender rather than the person that doesn't know how to use Blender isn't logical.

    I doubt calling Blender 'open source madness' will dissuade others from using Blender when the GUI in Autodesk products is based on a very well known open source product. What you've done is an attempt to use insults to pressure the audience into accepting your view of the world.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2014
  33. FlyingRobot

    FlyingRobot

    Joined:
    May 5, 2012
    Posts:
    451
    The next gen texturing can be very time consuming. Sometimes, working directly and iteratively with the shader inside unity, the texture and your model yield better results. At lower res (mobile res) next gen textures gets lost. I find myself working hands on with the maps with photoshop.

    I'm evaluating substance designer. Wonderful software.
     
  34. goat

    goat

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2009
    Posts:
    5,177
    The way I have been doing textures is to create them with subdiv turned on. I turn off subdiv for export to Unity. Since I am interested in mobile and cartoon style it's not a biggie. It's still not easy (for me) and still won't get ewws ahhhs from profis but oh, well.

    I may buy Substance Designer too as my way around creating more complex textures...and particularly for enhancing terrains and buildings.
     
  35. Ricks

    Ricks

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2010
    Posts:
    647
    Huh, what are you talking about?

    1) I did not blame blender for its workflow, I said it can be different. That's why I made a comparison with Lightwave.
    2) I did not put pressure on anyone or force anyone into my world view. Where did you imagine that?
    3) I don't dissuade anyone to use blender, even if the UI is suboptimal. But it is fact, that the UI of blender is a struggle since the begin of time. And yet I am a blender user for years and already said it gets the job done from modelling, texturing, animation. Isn't that good?

    Whatever it is you stumbled upon it seems you misinterpreted some sentences too negatively. And while I personally give C4D the first place, blender is already at the 2nd place, which is good. And if you are on budget, blender is #1.
     
  36. goat

    goat

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2009
    Posts:
    5,177
    You are attempting to back peddle but you said this:

    Caught! - If what you wrote wasn't an attempt to influence others than what was it? What is the purpose of writing anything then? ;)

    So I'm not attempting to view things 'too negatively' but people misusing truly offensive and even horrifying language to complain about the most mundane situations is over the top, out of context, and leads to a 'boy cried wolf' culture. Save the over the top expressions for your books, movies, video games and they will be more effective.
     
  37. Deleted User

    Deleted User

    Guest

    May I just say that Blender sucks and it can kiss my botty :)..
     
  38. Ricks

    Ricks

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2010
    Posts:
    647
    I stay to that what I said, but it I didn't meant blender specifically. The UI issue (again a major issue in many open source programs) just triggered me expressing a comment that is part of years of experience with open source applications from image-, audio-, music-processing, game engines, modelling, operating systems - used them for a long time and even pursued its developments - and because of these experiences over a decade I just allow myself to call it whatever I want.
     
  39. SomeDude

    SomeDude

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2012
    Posts:
    95
    I like Maya's UI way more than Blender's.

    Maya has marking menus which are faster than most hotkeys because you can press keys such as Ctrl, Shift and Alt for context sensitive gestural menus. Since my fingers are always resting on those modifier keys it's far faster than having to look down to peck a key in the middle of the keyboard, for example. It's also more tiring looking back and forth between keyboard and monitor for hours.

    People often prefer what they're familiar with, but I think someone new to 3D software would love Maya's UI and hate Blender's. But I hope Blender's UI improves a lot soon; it's the main thing holding Blender back.
     
  40. Dantus

    Dantus

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2009
    Posts:
    5,667
    The first pages of the thread were pretty productive and useful :)
     
  41. wbakunis

    wbakunis

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2014
    Posts:
    50
    I've been using Blender unity for the last 2-3 years now. i won't go into a full story about what I think about blender. Ill just say that its' there and works for people that don't have money for maya.

    My Pros:

    * Free
    * Easy to use? I guess im just used to it.
    * I'm going to go against what everyone thinks of blender's UI. I really liked the pre 2.7 UI. The new UI is awfully confusing.

    My cons:

    * Horrible uv mapping. Such a massive mess. Blender refuses to cleanly export the models uv map 'i.e - barrels tires'
    * Extremely confusing animation system
    * 2.7 UI sucks. Way too confusing to use now
     
  42. goat

    goat

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2009
    Posts:
    5,177
    Sure.
     
  43. goat

    goat

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2009
    Posts:
    5,177
    On that note I'll enter a t-shirt in that Unity t-shirt competition, when I go out of the house in the morning I want to look like I just stepped out of our local Wal*Mart.

    No sense debating Blender / Maya / C4D and so on when the OP has posted he's chosen Blender.
     
  44. CogumeloSoft

    CogumeloSoft

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2012
    Posts:
    56
    I'm working with Blender for 5 years. I work too with 3Dmax so i have some words about it.

    Blender UI is bad?
    Not ! If you are a professional in any software make any transition is hard, if you get some new 3D app that is too based in Icons and buttons it can be easier to make a change but Blender UI is is not designed for that.

    Blender is not a Point Click software, is a "Keyboard-Mouse / HotKey" software. So UI is just to remember you that this or that function exist not to use it in production. if you don't like how blender looks like by default, customize it ( make yours as i did, download some or select another build-in theme)

    This is my Blender UI and how modelling and Uv mapping in blender looks like


    Blender is hard do learn ?
    Truly if you're used to others software that show up all the button with all functions in your face all the time. But give it a try, it's not so hard and it's much more clever that you think. You want to Rotate? just press R , now you want to Scale? press S. if Alt do something so Ctrl undo it. It so much consistent Hotkey system, one time you learn how it works you don't need to keep the commands in your mind just use your brain it's incredible intuitive and if you don't have any idea how to find a tool just press space 8)

    Blender don't have x or y feature
    So what's the point? Blender don't have custom normal, but it's on the way. About Blender UV mapping be bad it's bullshit, Blender have LSCM for 10 years before Maya! About animations, blender is a animation software for mostly, it's designed for it and Blender Foundation have made 4 films until now with it and a new feature film is in development. Just see the last Siggraph Blender demo reel.
    But is obvious you will find many tools that your software have and blender not, let me talk something, i can find many tools that blender have and Maya/3Dmax don't too... it's a common thing, but i don't have to pay any dollar for Blender and it fits my needs ;)

    I use Blender for all my needs, modelling, texturing, rigging, animation, render, bake.... It's a complete suite and it's for free. Just try it, it's 50Mb download and again.. it's for free. ;)
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2014
  45. shaderop

    shaderop

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2010
    Posts:
    942
    Well, there goes the thread.

    It had a good run.
     
  46. goat

    goat

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2009
    Posts:
    5,177
    Also, I've only known Blender for a year and when people say UVs in Blender don't work and are bad I know they aren't good at modeling because I know from experience if my model is bad quality then when I go to UV the UVs are broken and not usable. If my model topology is good then my UVs are good and useable.

    And bad at animation? If your model has good topology and is rigged correctly I found Blender an easy animation system to use.

    People shouldn't blame their poor results on Blender, I know from experience as an amateur it takes me 4 times longer to get good results in Blender as compared to someone with many years experience but that I simply need patience. Exactly what I don't need to do is blame Blender and run off to another software and then blame that SW and so on. And if at the end of the day I am never as fast or good as others at Blender - that's life - but I don't need to be blaming Blender or others for it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2014
  47. goat

    goat

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2009
    Posts:
    5,177
    True, it's been demonstrated, Blender is good.
     
  48. Dantus

    Dantus

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2009
    Posts:
    5,667
    It was indeed by far the most valuable thread related to Blender and Unity I have ever seen. RIP

    Really guys, keep it on topic! Create another thread if you want to discuss the UI or if you want to compare it with other applications!
     
  49. goat

    goat

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2009
    Posts:
    5,177
    What? OP asked what to expect - and UI is clearly an issue and concern and that was very clearly shown to be a none issue. "Oh, the UVs are bad, the animation system don't work" are often bogus claims the OP would hear - claims dealt with and dismissed. JadaJadaJada - but now I'm almost done with my t-shirt design. Tschuess.
     
  50. Dantus

    Dantus

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2009
    Posts:
    5,667
    The OP already knows what can be expected. Discussions like the UI is good; no it sucks, no it is good because; no it sucks because; by the way this application is better; oh and there is another application that is even betterer; but the UI is this yet other application is betterererer; not it is not because this is best; help no one.