Suggestion / feedback: Code detection

The number of times I go into a thread and see first of all slabs of unformatted code dumped into posts, and then a first response suggesting that they use code tags, has pushed me to make this suggestion:

When someone presses the button to submit a post, the forum software should detect if there's more than one concurrent line of text that looks like it might be code (has periods between words with no spaces on either side, ends with ;, has pairs of { and } or ( and ), etc.) it should prompt the user to put it in code tags before posting.

It shouldn't force the issue because there's always the possibility of false positives, but it's clear that plenty of newbies know no better and aren't interested in learning how to post code before asking their first question. So, the software could help them with that by having a go at detecting it and giving them a firm nudge in the right direction.

 

I'd like to additionally suggest that the "POST NEW THREAD" button goes by default to the Search Forum page, and from there, in a link hidden somewhere in a block of text, is the real post new thread link. For instance:

Would you like to post a new thread in the forum? Have you searched yet for what you're looking for? Have you read through the licensing page if your post has something to do with using the free version? Click the ninth word in this message to post a new thread. Have you given thought to what you're about to post before just jumping in to post it? Are you sure you'd like to post? You might also want to check Unity Answers, as there are a ton of great suggestions there for all sorts of things. Thanks for reading, and we look forward to your post!

That might work.

 

Yeah, I think that there's a few things that could help new posters. This one jumped out at me as having an easy-to-implement and targetable technical solution, which most of the others don't.

In this case we can tick off the following:
- Give the advice when it's relevant, by automatically recognizing instances of the behaviour we want to change.
- Point towards a specific solution.
- Make the user feel like their experience has been improved rather than complicated.
- Avoid shotgunning it at people to whom it's not relevant.
- Make both their and other users' interactions more productive.
- (Added by edit) Requires no active moderator attention.

 

At the risk of overburdening the moderators, requiring approval for a user's first post in the Scripting section could go a long way towards solving this and many other issues.

Also, posts containing the following should result in a temporary autoban:

• "NullReferenceExpeption"
• "It doesn't work."
• "Java"
• "C# vs. …"
• "Unreal vs. …"
• "Can Unity do ..."

Second item is a particular pet peeve of mine.

 

Stopped reading there.

--Eric

 

Yeah... on the note of your second item, a link to a lite version of something like How To Ask Questions The Smart Way would be great.

I'm just hesitant to suggest things that involve the shotgun approach and/or putting more steps between new users and their first posts. The shotgun approach sucks because for every irrelevant thing you tell them they're less likely to listen to anything else. Putting extra steps in sucks for the obvious reason, but also because no matter how useful the stuff you tell them is it's pointless if they're not going to read it, which they probably won't because you're putting it between them and the thing they've decided to do.

Plus, we want to encourage people to hang out and get involved, not tell them they're doing it wrong and make things harder. I'd personally rather that someone posted sub-optimally than that they got annoyed and left.

 

"Getting involved" entails playing by the house rules and extending common courtesy to others. I would personally rather have someone leave and never come back if they are offended by the prospect of formatting their posts properly while asking for help.

If someone is in this for the long haul then the sooner they learn that there's no such thing as instant gratification the better their game making career or hobby is going to be. Doing otherwise will only delay the inevitable walking away when they discover that this S*** is hard and takes time.

CGtalk is probably one of the most popular 3D and VFX forums on the Internet, and that's despite (or more likely because of) having a first post moderation policy.

You actually read posts?

 

Sure, I'd just personally rather guide people in the right direction rather than give them the cold shoulder.

And if they're after instant gratification then they're not going to last long either way. No need to leave a sour taste when they move on.

 

I'd think that a moderator reviewing a person's first post and telling them if it needs fixing is pretty much the definition of "[guiding] people in the right direction."

And how is it worse than the exact same thing being done by your suggested detect-and-warn system? Is it the involvement of another human in and of itself that you find offensive?

 

In regards to this:

Look at this civil discussion from a few minutes ago:


I applaud your unbound empathy, but mine is a limited resource, and I wouldn't give a damn as to what taste was left on such a person's pallet as he walked off into the sunset (or, preferably, to where the sun don't shine).

I would rather risk contaminating his taste buds (and the taste buds of all n00bs) than risk alienating or even antagonizing an existing, experienced forum member who is genuinely trying to help.

/cc @DryTear

 

I think we're talking about different things here. First of all, if I had anything against interacting with other humans I certainly wouldn't hang out on a forum so much.

Yes, moderators involved with early posts would be provision if guidance. Still, I mostly don't think moderators should get involved in every post by a new user because they've got better ways to spend their time. (Or, well, I could be wrong about that, but it's what my reasoning is based on.) If moderator time were an unlimited resource then, heck yeah, give every newbie who isn't a jerk a personal mentor. But in reality that can't happen.

In addition to that, stuff I've already covered applies there too - it's getting between users and the things they're trying to do, it's a shotgun approach, and so on.


My comment about guiding people vs. giving them the cold shoulder was in reference to new people who do things we think are silly purely because they don't know any better. In truth I agree that if they're literally...

...that I don't really care for having them around either. I don't think most of them find it offensive, though, they just don't know any better and I suspect they probably would use code tags if they understood both how little effort it is and how much of a pain in the bum it saves.

For what it's worth, I don't really know whether to interpret your use of the word "offended" literally in either or both of the places you've used it here. Certainly nothing you've suggested has offended me, and I'm not sure what I've said to give that impression.

 

I'd have no time for that guy or those acting like them either. Seeing such people or even getting such responses doesn't ruin my day, though. They just won't get a share of my time in future, because there are plenty of people more deserving.

Lets be fair, that guy wasn't failing to format something. That's (almost certainly) not someone who doesn't know better, it's either deliberately antagonistic behaviour or someone with issues. No amount of help would have avoided that, and moderator guidance would have just resulted in the moderator copping it instead.

 

You spent much time over on UA? Every new user post goes through moderation. Doesn't help that much. In order to make the mod workload manageable you end up making every other user a mod. Then you get very inconsistent moderation.

An automated system for both sites would be amazing.

 

I'm just as confused about your confusion as you were originally confused. But let me try to clarify the latter instance: Is it the involvement of another human in and of itself that you find potentially offensive to newcomers? I hope that makes more sense now.

He was failing at formatting. He posted his code sample as a picture.

Look, I'm agreeing with your suggestion that ill-formatted code should be flagged. I disagree on the implementation. You think that an automated system is better than a moderator because a note from a moderator can (in your opinion as it seems to me) be taken the wrong way compared to essentially the same thing being done by an automated system, and because moderators are plenty busy already.

My stance is that screening by a moderator is better because it's fail proof and has been done before on at least one other popular forum that I know of, which proves that it's not impossible from a financial and human resources point of view.

No, but I'll take your word for it. But then what we have is your example of one forum where first post moderation failed and my example where it works. An example of a working setup is enough proof that said setup can work and an example of it not working does not doom all instances of that setup to failure.

It's a great idea, but it seems that nothing much is being done to encourage newcomers to land there.

I think part of the problem is this weird beast that this forum is. It's a community by the people for the people, but it's standing on corporate land. On one hand I have nothing but the utmost respect for the mods and I'm sure that they have enough on their plates already. On the other hand this forum is run by a company that sells a very successful product. So naturally one would be inclined to think that they have the resources to make stricter moderation work.

 

Two words: Regular expressions.

But then you would have two problems.

 

@angrypenguin - To detect code is good but... the first and easiest way to improve posts is to add the code tag as a button in the toolbar for new post and replies etc... basically everywhere that users can and probably will post code at some point of time. I'm honestly really surprised that it isn't there already.

A second way that forums could possibly improve is to add some advanced formatting to code... one of my past teachers at a university even had his own PHP script that added additional tags to colorize appropriate text, align parts and even make stuff bold, italic etc to make the overall code more readable. It was overkill for ten lines of code when new people posted but it was a blessing during advanced topics when someone had a need to maybe post 50 or more lines of code...

@Ony - A much better solution if the forums can withstand the load that it would generate is too save some space next to the fields for writing new posts/replies etc for search results. After they have written the topic, message body or similar... it automatically performs a search based on the provided content and look for similar topics and provide a list of results on the side with a header similar to... "Is this what you were looking for?".

The results could even be made to draw the users attention if presented in a eye-catching way (rainbow effect? *evil smile*)

(@Aurore - sorry, just to catch your attention to the first issue)

One of my biggest problems as of late has been to actually find what I am looking for... neither the forum or Google has been able to give me decent search results for a while There is just to much content to swim through so maybe a new approach/strategy would be a good idea to filter content...

 

I have never had the slightest problem finding an answer with Google. Usually, the first page has my solution.

And seriously, anybody who wants to be a programmer but skips right past the stickies, doesn't check the documentation, and has an aversion to hand writing a code tag needs to consider a different career path.

About 50% of programming is RTFM.

 

I'm not talking about anyone getting offended.

A picture that 100% retains formatting. The main problem with that conversation (which didn't work out so well for the poster) was their response to someone trying to help them. I agree that the OP was also sub-optimal, but can't think of a way to help with image posts aside from first-post moderator screening - more on that in a moment.

Having said that, I think code in images is less of an overall problem in so far as I see the issue described in my OP here far more often than I see code posted as an image, and code posted as an image is at least usually still more readable than the broken-format blobs from a non-tagged paste dump.

No, not at all. I've covered this a number of times now, and haven't ever said (or implied?) anything about moderator action being "taken the wrong way".

Moderator action requires:
- Active moderator attention, which will chew up their time.
- Waiting for a moderator, which delays things for users.
- The correction to get made after the post is initially made incorrectly, so this is "cure" rather than "prevention", reactive rather than proactive.

My stance is that a) it's not fail proof because it relies on humans, b) it's not scalable because it relies on humans, and c) there are examples in both directions. StackExchange is a great example of where smart systems built into software played a huge role in shaping the community in desirable ways. Just because something isn't impossible doesn't make it the optimal solution in all cases.

Me too. I'm constantly surprised that it's not there yet.

On this note, (@Aurore) detecting whether text is code when it's pasted in and optionally automatically sticking code tags on it would be amazing.

I agree with this, too. Surely there are code formatting libraries out there that could just be plugged in? However, that's more of a nice-to-have rather than a solution.

Also a great idea, though I'm not sure how heavy it'd be on the server doing multiple searches for every new thread. (Could be fine, I have no idea.) I have seen it done elsewhere, though, and even as a relatively experienced user I found it useful.

Sure, but the main benefit of having any of these solutions in place is to make people aware of it rather than to make using it easier. Once they know about it I suspect that many people would type the thirteen characters manually anyway.

 

Any stats on how often that's being used? More importantly, how often are experienced users and/or mods hanging out in there to guide them? (Full disclosure: I've never been in there. Not deliberately, it just hasn't made it into my idle-time browsing list.)

 

You expressed confusion. I tried to clarify. And it did sound like you were talking about newcomers getting offended:

That was one of your earlier responses to the idea of moderation involvement. You have clarified your position since then. But, in the context given, the above reads as "message from moderator equates to telling newcomers off, which is bad and doesn't happen when same is done by an automated system."

I'm sure that was not a petty attempt at scoring a point. Instead I'll say that you're probably in the very small minority of people who actually believe that a picture is worth a thousand words even if it's just a picture of words. I'm of the opinion that, if asked to moderate such a post, 99% of this forum's population will tell the user to use code tags and try again.

You did to me. See above. But I'm glad you clarified that eventually.

• It's not your problem nor is it mine. It's Unity's call as to whether they can afford it or not. I appreciate your concern for their bottom line but I'm sure they can crunch the numbers by themselves.
• The faster Instant Gratification is unlearned the better.
• Not sure what you mean. Holding a post for moderation is pretty proactive to me. And holding a post in moderation means that it doesn't get published, by the way. Or do you believe that it's only proactive if it's done Minority Report–style?

a) It's more fail proof compared to an automated code detection system that is totally optional and easily ignorable.
b) Again, not your concern, not your call, and not your argument to make in the first place. If Unity tells me that, no, moderation is just not financially feasible, then I'll take their word for it.
c) I'll just repeat what I said before:

So you're using Stack Exchange, which is a system that is built around the idea of encouraging and gamifying community self-moderation, as an example against moderation. Not sure I follow your logic here.

 

Like I stated in my previous post, I use both and more. Google and the search function in the forum is only my first two options... I widen the net so to speak when I don't find satisfying results.

Regarding topics that I look for... it can be anything Unity related. I'm a game designer, programmer and artist so it varies a lot... a lot

You should probably calm down a bit good sir... here, have a cookie

You surely know then that the results from Google are hugely user dependent, you are logged in ten different ways, on all devices that got the same Google account and more... these results are analyzed by a bot-like system that attempts to improve your results but it works better for some and worse for others.

Dunno who you think isn't a programmer... and the documentation part... wrong thread perhaps? This thread was simply discussing how to improve some things...
But I can answer one thing and that is the fact that hand writing code tags is better then nothing... reminds me of the command prompt era But it is considered poor user design/experience/interface... etc when a features existence isn't at least hinted by the interface... it is considered good when it gets a button or appropriate control and great when it got secondary features that make life easier for the user.

 

@Aurore - Don't take me wrong, it is very unrealistic to demand perfection... striving for it is a different matter

 

I am calm! I deny your cookie! I do not need cookies to calm me down! Okay, I'll take your cookie.

I could search without being logged in and get what I want. It's just a matter of using the right search terms, and maybe some strategic quote marks.

To clarify, a large amount of scripting forum posts are answered in the Unity APIs or the MSDN. How does that translate to forum improvements? I dunno, maybe we should replace the scripting forum with links to docs. There is Answers, after all. Not entirely sure why the duplication of purpose.

But frankly, all the forum improvements presented here are easily replaced with RTFM. Read the stickies. Read the APIs. Read the MSDN. Then you know code tags, and you almost certainly know the answer to nearly any question you need to ask.

The problem isn't that the system is broke, the problem is that the users are lazy. Too lazy to read a sticky. Too lazy to find and read docs. This isn't fixed by forum improvements, unfortunately. The forums can't fixy lazy users except by making it harder to post.

So maybe force people to go through a tutorial that shows them how to search Google and the relevant documentation, makes them write a sample post with code tags, and THEN allow them to post on the scripting forum. Can't think of another way that attempts to address the root problem, user laziness.

 

For the sake of clarity, once more, that's not at all how it was intended. I intended it as furthering my opinion that it's better to guide people to do the correct thing in the first place rather than pulling them up about it afterwards. Not because the latter might offend people, but because it makes for a better user experience.

And, for the sake of transparency, I'm finished with the discussion continued in the rest of that post.

Yeah, I had a quick browse yesterday and was pleasantly surprised.

I wouldn't be concerned about chasing perfection. This is a community site, so far and away the most important feature is the community, and I'm repeatedly impressed at how cool the community is here. I think the way to go most of the time is a) keep doing whatever you're doing, as it seems to be working, and b) identify the biggest bumps and help the community smooth them out.

That's pretty much entirely what this thread was for - it's about a bump I see pretty regularly, which I think you can smooth out relatively easily without ongoing work.

 

We've been through this once before. Direct review of a user's post is the ultimate, most direct method of "guiding people to do the right thing." Here's what you said about this before:

Back then, your objection was that it would be a drain on resources. It seems you've now conceded that that issue is not your concern nor is it mine. So now it's back to being worse because of "sub optimal user experience," which I'm betting will lead us back to it boiling down to instant gratification (which you you seem to value above all else) vs overall signal to noise ratio.

You seem rather attached to the specifics of your suggestion and dismissive (or even hostile) to mine. Your arguments alternate between some variant of "the rent is too damn high!" and "think of the children!" Both of which were addressed several times now.

For what it's worth, I think that your original suggestions is a fine one and that it's worth implementing if at all feasible. It's sort of like the no-subject warning in most email clients. Good on you for coming up with it. In fact I'd like to take a stab at it if someone can tell me how to grab an anonymous RSS feed of the latest posts.

And I also think that first post moderation for all forums, and particularly for the scripting forum is also an idea that is worth considering and I would like to see it done.

Correctness isn't a limited resource. Two solution that address the same problem can both be equally right at the same time.

 

Oh boy... OH BOY!

Please do that for anything and everything related to "null reference exception"!



I am of course kidding, but I'm sure I'd get a good laugh out of that at least once.

If there's a way to perform actions before posting I'm sure someone around here or on your web team could take it from there. I haven't personally looked at anything to do with forum software other than using it in years, though, so I'd be in no better position to find or suggest a plugin than you.

If you say so. My arguments haven't alternated or changed, I stand by all of what I've said above, simultaneously. No single factor taken in isolation trumps all others. My intent in responses to you has been purely to clarify understanding of what I meant, where on several occasions I've felt that you're putting words and/or meanings into my mouth. I'm really not interested in a continued point-by-point debate as it's doing no good for anyone. I think both of our opinions are clear to anyone who reads the thread, and that's good enough for me.

 

Good on you! But let me remind you of how you came to this platitude–enforced righteous stand that you're taking: I came to this thread agreeing with your suggestion, but I dared to offer another suggestion that in no way competes or takes away from yours.

It was you who then started a 127-word essay—the first of several—attempting to dismiss my idea using the same two trite arguments repeated ad nauseam but in different guises, despite both arguments being repeatedly addressed and refuted. Everything I did was in response to your attacks. So feel free to feel as victimized as you need to, but remember that the first salvo was yours.

Me attaching meaning to your words is kind of how humans process and understand speech, don't you think? It's not the same as putting words in your mouth, and attempting to conflate the two is a cheap shot on your part.

But if you're going to bring up the subject, then allow me to remind you that the last time we crossed paths it was you who accused me and other participants in another discussion of advocating code obfuscation as a means of thwarting people's attempt to learn from existing code. It was an accusation that you've conjured up from thin air and then went on to suggest that we were all "jerks" (which was the actual word you used) for thinking that way.

 

There's lots of plugins that let you use regular expressions in Xenforo, and it'd be easy to rig up code detection using those. One of your web guys should be able to whip up something pretty quickly. Just need to search for lines ending in semicolons, and some other distinctive patterns that only show up in code. Then you guys could do a polite little code tag suggestion popup if something looks like code and the post doesn't have code tags, after the post button is hit. Something easy to dismiss if you know what you're doing, but that will get the attention of the newbies.