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Still no plans for Linux editor support?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Sam_Pr, Feb 12, 2014.

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  1. Tiles

    Tiles

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    No. Desktop!
     
  2. gnat_

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    Disney, Universal Pictures, Rainmaker, Weta Digital (2nd Hobbit film), etc. all use Linux workstations within their day to day production.

    I realize a lot of indie devs are on Windows, but there are a lot of high end professionals in animation, simulation and gaming who use Linux as a desktop internally. I think we need to honestly re-asses WHY there is no Unity editor on Linux yet in this day and age...

    See 1:00 - 10:30

     
  3. thxfoo

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    I know many windows-desktop-only companies that allow their most productive people to use their own Linux desktop. You want to keep your most productive assets happy, even if official company IT policy does not allow it.
     
  4. Ryiah

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    A re-assessment is unnecessary. We know exactly why there is no Unity editor on Linux. It is very simple to understand and has been touched on multiple times in this thread.

    Unity's primary source of income is licenses. As such support for new platforms, both for the editor and publishing, is based on the market for those platforms.

    Read over this thread and you'll find something rather interesting. Pretty much everyone who is in favor of an editor on Linux has yet to answer the question posed by Graham. How many licenses are you willing to buy if they add support?
     
  5. carking1996

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    I agree with you, and don't use Linux primarily, but it is a possibility if more people support games for Linux as in this situation, Linux could become a larger substance for computer users.
     
  6. Ryiah

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    There is a difference between supporting publishing to Linux and supporting the editor on Linux. It is not one market but rather two. One aimed at consumers and one aimed at developers.

    Each has to be a viable market with potential income in order to justify supporting it. Publishing to Linux has already proven itself. What remains is proving that developers are willing to buy licenses if the editor is ported to Linux.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2014
  7. Ony

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    This is all fine and dandy, but I think what a large number of developers are really wondering is when will the Unity editor run on an oscilloscope?
     
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  8. gnat_

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    It's important because the ratio of high end professionals on Linux workstations is far higher than casual users or game hobbyists when compared to Windows or Mac.

    Professionals buy licenses.


    Disney, Universal, Rainmaker, etc. have enormous teams using Linux workstations for Maya, etc. Personally the only thing holding me from going all in on a few Unity licenses is the lack of a Linux editor.
     
  9. Ryiah

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    By such logic then few if any in this thread who have expressed an interest in an editor on Linux are professional. Otherwise we would see an editor for Linux.

    As Graham stated, if every single one of those who voted for an editor on Linux offered to buy Unity Pro, it would be in development right now.

    My advice to those who are willing to buy licenses, find a way to build a list of those willing to buy licenses if support were added and submit it to Unity.

     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2014
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  10. Cogent

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    Don't forget the RasPi and the Arduino!

    ...and how is it fair to leave the eComStation users out in the cold?

    This is unconscionable Unity! You must support MY OS of choice.
    I request, no, demand you organize your business priorities the way I think they should be!

    I deserve it.

    :p




     
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  11. puzzud

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    There are 13663 votes for a Linux Unity 3D Editor, as of right now--31 Dec 14:

    There are 3 types of Unity 3D using developers that start off by trying Unity 3D Free and then:
    1. Stop using Unity altogether after some time.
    2. Continue to use Free and never upgrade to Pro.
    3. Upgrade to Pro after some time.
    Graham Dunnett stated, with regards to how Unity Technologies can query the number of paying developers:
    This statement made no distinction among different OS. However, because clients authenticate, I have to assume it could have been possible to associate a registered license with a version of the client.

    From UT's existing data, it should be possible to identify all 3 types of users (outlined above) and get a percentage of paying customers verses all other types of non-paying customers (even those that let their subscriptions expire).

    So, if there is a rough idea of how many Free using Linux developers there would be (essentially #1 and #2), it should be possible to extrapolate the number of paying Linux developers.

    Enter the poll votes. This number is hard for an outsider to truly slice. It doesn't represent a number of users, as registered accounts (not necessarily a 1 to 1 user relationship either) are allowed to vote at least 10 times. But perhaps this 10 vote weight is meant to also account for people who would have never voted or had the chance to vote.

    Anyhow, even if 10% of 13663 votes subscribed to Pro that would yield roughly $2M dollars. And my calculations also show that 1% of 13663 would still yield a healthy $205K. I think either number is sufficient to employ 2-3 developers to spend some time reusing, porting, and testing some existing Mac client code to Linux.
     
  12. Ryiah

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    You make it sound like the Mac OS X client code is compatible with Linux. While both of them are POSIX-compliant to some degree and they both make use of OpenGL, that is quite literally where the similarities end. Libraries and framework APIs are going to be different and then you have the matter of the middle-ware. Unity uses a lot of middle-ware.

    If you believe a few developers are sufficient then you are greatly underestimating the actual work involved. I doubt $2 million would cover the actual costs of developing an editor on Linux. Let alone the depth of testing that would be necessary to ensure it is ready for production environments.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2014
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  13. Dantus

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    It is interesting that the same argument pop up again and again. Though non of them changes something for Unity. The pseudo numbers based on the faked feedback votes aren't really a solid basis when it comes to any kind of math.
     
  14. Tomnnn

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    I'm surprised by the lack of mention of SteamOS. I know they're taking forever, but they're really trying! :p
     
  15. Cogent

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    /amen

    I'm sorry to say but this thread absolutely deserves the #dealwithit hashtag.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2014
  16. gnat_

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    Even Unreal Engine has a Linux editor at this point.

    By the logic in this thread, if the Unity editor never had a Mac port, the bulk of "platform experts" posting in this thread would also be justifying it because 95% of casual users use Windows...

    It's not about the casual users, it's about the professionals who are actually making games and buying licenses.
     
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  17. Cogent

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    Dear Linux "Professionals",

    While we appreciate your concern for our business and your "back of the napkin", armchair, business analysis
    we feel Unity Technologies is doing just fine with our current strategy.

    Feel free to contact us if you have additional concerns regarding our business in the future.

    Sincerely,
    Unity Technologies
     
  18. Eric5h5

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    In fact it never did; it had a Windows port. Prior to Unity 2.5, it only ran on OS X.

    --Eric
     
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  19. Cogent

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    Yes.

    Not to overdo the hashtag thing but I believe this falls under #payattention :p
     
  20. gnat_

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    I think most people are aware that Unity started out as a Mac engine. It was a hypothetical statement.
     
  21. Ryiah

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    Unreal's editor runs within the engine. It also does not rely on any middle-ware. Porting the Unreal editor is thus a relatively trivial task by comparison to Unity.
     
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  22. Graham-Dunnett

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    I was going to post your machine name and OS version by looking you up in our license database. Since I was unable to locate you, either you're using a pirated copy, or an account unconnected to puzzud.
     
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  23. Cogent

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    @puzzud
    It's off to the principal's office with you mister!
    :p
     
  24. Graham-Dunnett

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    (No, I suspect @puzzud is a regular user, just he's not using a forum account associated with his Unity license. At least, I hope that's the case. We'd not want more Linux-fan-boys asking for Linux versions of Unity they'll never pay for.)
     
  25. Ryiah

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    Alternatively he may not use Unity at all. Which given the number of users who have never posted prior to this thread, it wouldn't be all that surprising.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2014
  26. AcidArrow

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    Well this has taken a slightly accusatory turn (and for the record, I too post from a different account than the one that has the licenses I use, I assume it's not that uncommon).

    In any case, a linux editor is a valid request. I would like to see it too one day. But I can appreciate that it's a non-trivial matter to port the Editor to Linux.
     
  27. Graham-Dunnett

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    Oh, that hadn't occurred to me.
     
  28. Graham-Dunnett

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    Indeed. I just emailed Lamborghini and told them when they have free cars I'll be first at their local dealership to pick one up.
     
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  29. Ryiah

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    You don't have a post count in the single digits though.
     
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  30. AcidArrow

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    I think that sarcasm was a bit unwarranted. As I said, I can appreciate that it's non-trivial to implement it.

    I wanted to move to linux years ago, but then the software I was using (Modo) didn't have a linux version. They said they were making one, they then gave up on it and now I believe they released a linux port last year.

    If the key pieces of software I use were available on linux I would have probably switched platforms. But a lot of them aren't, so I won't.

    So me, wanting a linux editor, is valid. What is also very valid is that it doesn't make sense for Unity to spend resources to make it and that's fine.

    (edit) PS: When you mail them for the free Lamborghini can you tell them to reserve one for me too? Thanks :D
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2014
  31. Tomnnn

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    How about naming godot the closest that unity is going to get to having a linux editor, and in the future refer linux developers to that? It's already called the open source version of unity, maybe you guys can make that official :p
     
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  32. Cogent

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    Please request one for me also. I would but since you are in contact with them already I figure why waste electrons?
     
  33. puzzud

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    And what is the purpose of posting a forum member's machine name?

    I've been a hobbyist game developer for many years. I was thinking about participating in a game jam or the first time. I'm also been aware that some of the new VR & AR tech being developed right now are focusing on supporting primarily Unity. So, I figured it'd be a good time to give Unity a try.

    I've installed 4.6.1 registered under the Free license at work (Windows). And for the holiday, I was going to try my arm on getting the same installed under Wine on my Linux machine at home. Unfortunately, I'm having some kind of GUI rendering bug that prevents me from using under the latter configuration.

    I'm a professional software developer who has used Linux primarily (without a Windows partition) for nearly 10 years. I have money in hand to pay for licenses of software I use (and have paid for, such as SmartGit).

    I can't say why the same email and password I've used for registering the Free clients I've installed and the use of this forum doesn't resolve. That doesn't sound like my problem and is sounds like an analytic issue.

    Honestly, the thing that probably drives some people to pirate Unity is how text serialization of assets is a Pro only feature. UT has expressed the want to support open source yet this licensed feature seems abhorrent of the idea.

    Is there someone else from Unity Technologies that can represent on this forum? My comments are of a civil nature. I've not read any disrespectful comments from people here asking for Linux support. I just keep reading very toxic responses from the people who are against this idea.
     
  34. Ryiah

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    Have you tried --force-opengl as a command-line argument?

    Currently this makes you the only person to state your willingness to purchase a license. Pretty much everyone else showed up with some reasoning that bordered on nonsense and refused to comment on whether or not they would purchase a license.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2015
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  35. Tomnnn

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    I have a unity pro (4.x and 5.x) license and a linux machine. I was deciding between a steam machine and a generic windows machine for continuing development, but threads like these swayed my decision. The choices provided by the team here were get windows or find a new hobby D:

    It's hard to get an accurate sampling for linux sales because there is no native client. I have a friend who almost considered unity, but is exclusively on linux now. It wasn't worth an afternoon of wine.

    My linux machine is now nothing more than a testing ground for unity exports :c
     
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  36. goat

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    Linux is like, for folk that pride themselves on 100% open source and free. or small Ebay / Amazon dependent retailers too cheap for turnkey hosted solutions at Amazon itself. Unity is not that.

    You'd stand a better chance of getting Unity ported to Linux if you worked at IBM and accosted them internally they need a Unity Editor on Linux for in the field alterations of any solutions they'd created using Unity; if they even use Unity for anything at all yet.
     
  37. superpig

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    That's not been true for quite a while, I think since like 4.3 or something. I don't remember exactly when but I just checked in 4.6.0 and it's definitely available there.
     
  38. goat

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    Maybe Unity will make a Linux editor if they ever switch to QT or is that what they already use? I never checked.
     
  39. Eric5h5

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    They use Unity OnGUI code, which is already platform-independent. Before that they used native Mac GUI code, which obviously wouldn't work on Windows, which is why they rewrote the editor GUI to be platform-independent. (Mostly; there are still a few native things here and there.) Anyway that's probably about 1% of the work needed...remember all of the middleware.

    --Eric
     
  40. goat

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    No I meant for the editor...like Autodesk uses QT but at any rate it's not a good use of programmer resources. I've haven't seen a Linux distribution sold in a store since the 1990s.
     
  41. hippocoder

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    I don't think it's massive technical barriers more than Unity can barely keep up with the platforms the editor is on (various versions of windows and mac os). Adding n number of linux distros to the mix is a recipe for disaster, particularly with such a massive change to Unity with Unity 5. If it's going to happen, it's going to happen when Unity gets it's breath back, and after it's open sourced a fair number of modules so that the linux community can at least contribute.

    What I'm saying is, there's a time and a place when decisions make sense, and that time isn't now.
     
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  42. Eric5h5

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    Yes, I know. It should be clear from the references I made that I was talking about the editor too. With a few exceptions it does not use native windowing APIs (or anything like GTK or QT) but draws most everything itself, using OpenGL/Direct3D. The editor GUI is written with OnGUI code so it mostly only has to be written once for both OS X and Windows. And that's also why it's so extensible. (But there is more to Unity than the GUI.)

    --Eric
     
  43. Graham-Dunnett

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    You made a comment about how we don't refer to OS ever. I was going to try and convey to you that we do have a lot of machine data for users who have free and Pro versions of Unity.
     
  44. Graham-Dunnett

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    No-one is against the idea for a Linux version, and I don't think there are toxic responses. If you think there are, let me know the posts and I'll deal with the community members. What we do see a lot of is people saying Unity should create a Linux version. As we've said many times, if there were enough companies lining up to purchase a Linux version, so that our engineering effort is funded, I think we'd make one.
     
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  45. darkhog

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    How about no? Python has most fireworked-up syntax and their GDScript is based on Python. If it would have somewhat normal syntax, I'd switch to Godot long time ago, otherwise one bad space and good luck with debugging!
     
  46. darkhog

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    Please:
    Then target just 3 most popular distros, Ubuntu, openSuSE and Mint, for others if users can get it working ok, if not then too bad (most likely they'll be able to package it on their own).
     
  47. hippocoder

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    This thread is going around in circles. Regardless, Unity gave the answer and it's: want to but hard data says no.
     
  48. Tomnnn

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    You can code in godot in c++ though. I was NOT in anyway suggesting that python become a big-dog in the game development field, save for perhaps making modding easier. Please no.

    Did anyone really care, though? "Right tool for the job", yes? The only semi-big engine I can think of made to work on linux is leadwerks. The only appeal Unity has to the linux platform is that it can publish everywhere. A lot of gaming professors at NJIT say that most development for games will happen on windows because the target audience is windows. Also that even when games are developed on linux, the target platform will likely be windows.

    If people want to code on linux for linux (natively), godot and leadwerks may be their only options :s And unreal at some point in the future. Unity will probably only ever make that move if there's a huge spike in linux users once SteamOS reaches the limelight. And who knows, Valve started the greenlight program, maybe they'll even fund Unity and Unreal (and everyone else) to get a linux editor just to help their own product.
     
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  49. Ryiah

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    How long will that take? It has been over a year since the initial release of SteamOS and it is still in beta. How many devices can you buy that use it? None as far as I can determine.

    If you are expecting SteamOS to miraculously bring Linux onto the map as it were then prepare to be disappointed.

    Why not the major enterprise distribution developers? Red Hat, SuSE, etc. If companies started developing their products on Linux I would imagine those are the distributions that would see the most use.
     
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  50. puzzud

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    I speculate that the rate of companies adopting Unity has probably come to a slow trickle. Ongoing income primarily comes from existing companies.

    Perhaps it's possible from looking at those companies' OS breakdowns to speculate the number of developers that would use Linux over their current configuration if possible.

    For instance, perhaps in Company A there are 10 devs: 7 Windows users and 3 Mac users. Maybe statistically 0.5 of 10 people would use Linux. That number adds up.

    It seems like this scenario would have more value if it came from the mouths of a few real Unity paying companies.

    If anyone has contact with people in this situation, please ask them to vocalize it to Unity Technologies.

    These kinds of issues don't identify themselves. There are some features in software that customers may acknowledge and complain to themselves but nevertheless deal with it. So, the carrot is never waved.
     
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