Steam is aware of the Review Bombing...

That could well be a lack of intelligence or maturity I think. I am not defending him specifically I am just saying anybody can start a video thingy. And I imagine he meant absolutely no harm by doing it and did it all for a joke / get attention. And it is only after such people do things they realize oh crap what was I thinking?!!!

Just my guess anyway. Seen many people that seem like him irl and that is how they do things. Do really dumb things thinking only of some tiny funny aspect / attention they will get and miss the huge bad part until after they do it.

 

Lack of maturity is a real possibility, but he's clearly intelligent if you read the Wikipedia article. He was pursuing a degree at a university that has strict grade requirements. He only abandoned the degree because he wasn't enjoying it and because YouTube was taking off in a massive way.

 

If it was off the cuff S***, sure, but here's the thing. Aside from him saying the n-word on stream (which was the last straw for a lot of people BECAUSE of his history) his other stuff? It's all edited. He goes through each thing and edits them for time, for content, everything, and he chooses to leave things in. When he reacted to the "death to all jews" thing, for instance? That was part of a series of choices that he made. Lemme break it down:

1. First he has to come up with the idea
2. Money has to exchange hands
3. He has to review the incoming footage where the sign is held up
4. He has to choose to put that on his channel
5. He has to edit and upload that video
6. He then monetises the video on top of that

Similar things happen for all of the things he's done in the past and I don't blame the Firewatch devs one bit for not wanting their game to be associated with that sort of person.

And here's the other thing. Most people don't just shout racial obscenities when they get upset. To do that, you kinda have to actually think they're on some level wrong to say, but also have them be the kind of thing that you'd go ahead and say in the first place. You don't just spawn the n-word from the ether as you're playing PUBG. It has to be a part of your lexicon in the first place. I know I wouldn't want the stuff I make associated with people like that, and it doesn't surprise me that Campo Santo doesn't either.

 

Also he is Swedish it's not like he learn cursing with the N word in english school.

 

I did find that odd why a swede would use the term but I figured he just picked it up from multiplayer fps gaming with folks around the world. I watched only a bit of some fps games once to try to get a better idea why they liked such games so much and I tell you it was just a stream cussing and using probably every taboo word there is as well as some they seemed to have made up.

Again I am not defending the guy I just think this problem goes way beyond him. He just happens to be out in the spotlight but for every one of him there are hundreds of thousands if not a million people out of the spotlight who do far worse.

Ya know with people it all comes out of comfort. It is just the way people are. Something can seem very wrong to a person at one point. Something they would never do ever. But over time as they do smaller things their line gradually moves until one day that big no no thing seems like it is not a big deal at all anymore. And a lot of it can also depend greatly on who a person hangs around with and what they are exposed to.

We'd expect an erotic dancer for example would likely have a line that is much further out than a nun. Generally speaking the former will have been exposed to a lot more rough talk and actions than the latter. As a result it will take much harsher speech and actions to shock her than it will for the nun.

It is also that way in life in general. Younger people often get on a soapbox talking about right and wrong and so forth feeling very strongly. Give them another 20 years of life habing been exposed to a hell of a lot more stuff and they will almost certainly not feel the same way but you cannot convince them of that now.

Anyway we are getting into way outside the Unity forums stuff here.

 

That's why we call these thing "systemic issues" to move away from blaming single individual and try to change the underlying mechanics that keep maintaining issues, but only after "history" had been made. That's what some people also call outrage about non issue to counter act. He also have a lot of follower, that give him a lot of influence, ie a lot of responsibility, you know what uncle Ben said once lol.

But yeah that's way past unity lol

 

For the most part people out of the spotlight don't matter. Most of them won't have a meaningful impact on people other than those they need to interact with on a daily basis and the people who know them will be far less inclined to imitate them because they're not celebrities or similarly viewed.

 

That's the popular belief for sure and not one I agree with. Pewdiepie is a joke when it comes to such things. There are others around not on camera who truly feel very strongly not for laughs but because they believe it. Those are the real threat not some joker making YT game videos and saying the word. I am sure that some of those true threats follow him but if he falls or not it won't change their views one way or another. They felt the way they do before he came along and will continue after he is gone.

Anyway... hopefully the Steam review bombing will be less in time through some miracle.

 

You said it yourself in a previous post. He likely picked it up from other people. Same thing applies to some of the people who watch him. They'll pick it up from him and because he's not some random guy they meet up in real life but someone they know has some form of celebrity status they'll be more likely to imitate him.

 

There is no doubt he will be the cause of some people picking up his behavior. But the same happens all over. People are influenced by watching movies. Reading books. Hanging out in certain environments. And yes watching some celebrity. That is one of many. But those are mainly easily influenced people who will be "changed" because of such exposure. Now it will be strengthened because there will be some people who are fully in support of him using the word regularly and they will stir up the sheep.

Those are the real issue IMO and the reason nothing ever changes. How many times do such things happen and a person in the spotlight takes a fall or at least a heck of a penalty yet nothing changes the same things happen again and again. Because the real root problem is not there in the spotlight. It is the same for violent crimes and everything else. People want to neatly package it all up and have it be embodied by this person and that person. And justice is served and people are happy for a moment but the real problem the real extreme cases are still out there. They do not go into the spotlight.

Anyway I feel like I am going to start giving kids nightmares or something so am done.

 

My multiracial teen daughter watches Youtubers. Really, I do not think she should turn on a video about a play through of a game and hear the N word being used as if it means nothing.

Having been subject to a tiny bit of this as the mother of a brown child (she happens to be adopted), I will not keep my mouth shut when I hear this stuff. It is condoning it that normalizes it. I am very glad that some people do not keep their mouth shut either.

I love this community but I always get a little sad when I hear people say it is not so bad about something that has absolutely no affect on them.

 

I get that. And to me the word is negative because that is what people use it for. However, he didn't as far as I know. He said the word itself which has no meaning in that context.not directed at anyone as far as I know. And I wasn't going to say anymore but this fits in so might as well.

The real problem is not him. It is the same with Jim Sterling any other known person. I think people see them as like the head of a snake. They aren't. They are much more like puppets.

PDP apologized and removed the video. What more can the man do? But the problem is there are many people in his fanbase... the real problem.... who are keeping it going because of their own beliefs.

So what I am getting at is I wish one day would come when people would accept this stuff is not about one person it is all of those instigators. The ones in the crowd who believe strongly and protest and react violently and attack and do review bombing in this case. Those people are doing that entirely on their own of their own choice. They are the ones refusing to apologize and say yes he made a big mistake and so did we for laughing even though he already did.

 

Yes he did. But then again, he has apologized for the same behavior before. After a while, apologizing becomes meaningless.

You have no idea what the context was in his head. For all you know, it is how he thinks. I have no idea either. Really though, it is just not necessary.

 

Absolutely! It is the jerks who abused the review system in Steam. I see it happen here on the asset store too and it makes me angry, honestly. But it is the loyal fanbois, as they call them, who do this. I have no idea why. lol I do not get it honestly.

The dev and the youtuber settled it. What is it that makes people so rabid that they have to come and bomb a game's reviews?

 

There are more than two sides to this issue, and someone could easily fall on more than one of them. Personally, I'm on both the anti-racism and the don't-misuse-DMCA sides.

As far as I understand, the major people complaining aren't trying to stop anyone from acting against racism. What they're upset about is:

• Attempted misuse of the DMCA to take something down based on a disagreement rather than a copyright infringement.
• Attempted retroactive removal of permission to use content, even though that permission was explicitly given in the first place.
• The disagreement arose from a video that wasn't even using their content in the first place.

They're not saying "let celebrities be racist in peace", they're saying "this isn't the right way to do something about it, and it might cause other problems elsewhere".

I also think that in this case it's likely to have called a whole bunch of attention to this guy - basically advertising for him - without doing much practical good along the way. I don't know much about DMCA, but I'm guessing that his videos won't be taken down precisely because while he did use their game he did it with their permission! I somehow doubt that can be retroactively rescinded. (But ff it does work... oh golly, imagine the minefield that will spawn!) So yes, they've loudly called out his behaviour as being unacceptable, but in a way that sidetracks the conversation into this stuff rather than keeping the bits about racism and celebrity behaviour front and center.

With that in mind...

I'd go further than "it's not necessary". He has wilfully and deliberately put himself in a position of influence and, I believe, should thus be held to a higher standard by both himself and us.

 

Yep that's the thing. I've seen the same kind of thing with Jim Sterling. Even he will settle down his behavior a bit (due to a lawsuit) but this serves only to stir his fans up even more and they just fill the comments with their hate ot whatever while telling him he did nothing wrong.

IMO it is all of these people that are the real problem. Like even when the spotlight person publicly apologizes and changes his approach there are all of these extremists in their following who just refuse to do the same and if anything become even more hateful.

 

What PewDiePie said and what Firewatch team did need to be judged separately, in my opinion.

If some burglar broke into my house and stole something valuable, and if I retaliated by breaking into house the next day and murdered his wife instead of calling the police, then neither the burglar's action can be justified by the loss he suffered because of me, nor I could get away from the consequences because of his initial criminal act.

 

Fair use totally covers games with copyright. Fair use is literally all about using copyrighted material for some purpose.

The thing is, for something to qualify for fair use it needs to be transformative and limited. It needs to change the nature of the content in some significant way.

Years ago I made a bunch of music videos of game clips set to music. This was undoubtedly copyrighted material. But the work was transformative - it changed the context of the clips to apply to the music. And this (music videos with clips from games or movies) is huge, tons of people do it.

However, I don't know how that works for PewDiePie. I've never even watched one of his videos so I have no idea what he does, but I understand his ilk typically just shows clips of the game while talking over it. I personally would be dubious of calling that transformative, and certainly not limited.

Absolutely no one in the world was associating Firewatch with racism or that kind of language until the developer made a stink.

 

As a multiracial child myself, I think it's very valuable to have exposure to as many things that I'm going to face out in the real world as I can, while still in a place that can give me some moral stability. Otherwise I would be blindsided by things I'm not equipped to understand and I'd either be grievously hurt by things others can bounce back from quite readily, or I'd start lashing out indiscriminately and become just as bad as the one who hurt me.

I too am very glad people don't keep their mouths shut on this issue...no matter which stance they have. Conversation is how these issues are solved, not through shaming people.

 

I would have no problem with Firewatch developer's actions if they merely condemned racism. But they went after him by abusing youtube's content flagging system.
Good read.
Fighting people's supposed political views with crime is fascism.

 

For everyone saying that Pewdiepie deserved what he got for being racist or whatever, you're missing the point.

The Firewatch devs are issuing a DMCA Takedown for his videos because he used language they didn't like. DMCA Takedowns are for copyright infringement, they are not for "I disagree how my content was used". This is a crass misuse of the legal system. IP is nebulous and horrible enough without having people misusing it.

It is YouTube's job to police its community. It is not the job of the Firewatch devs and doing it this way gives a clear message that they think that they own streamers and that their mere existence is just a continue grace from the developers.

 

Anyway this kind of review bombing is not what I was originally posting about. I wasn't even aware of the Firewatch incident because I am more focused on the little Indies than I am on the big extremely successful Indies. Definitely it illustrates the issue very strongly though. That any person can get ticked off for one reason or another and wield the Steam rating/review system as a weapon.

Regardless of why even if there is a legitimate reason for people feeling anger it is abusing a privilege abusing the power they have been given. Basically dragging their political / moral / whatever views into a game review system and those feelings have absolutely nothing to do with the Firewatch game.

I guess if anything it all illustrates how a large number of people cannot be trusted with any power because their feelings run wild and they act out of anger too often.

I don't know why we have so much of this now. Rating systems have been around for decades I mean user ratings on various websites. Yet it seems like it is only recently we have got all of these very extreme overreacting people. Not just in games but just everwhere in life in general it seems like people are filled with anger.

The only real solution I can see for Steam is to not give people the right the power to rate positive and negative and leave a review because clearly a huge number just cannot handle that responsibility. But I'd hate for that to happen because there is a lot of value in the true reviews focused on games without any ulterior motives.

Ha ha. That's it I guess. There are just too many ulterior motives driving game reviews. Some developers bash the games of their competition. Groups of people bash games they feel are are too small. Others bash for having graphics they feel are not good enough. Others bash games for using canned assets. Others bash games that are too mobile like. And so on.

Just a multitude of extreme people trying to force their personal views (and those of like-minded people) on the marketplace. And every single one is abusing the rating review system to that end.

 

The fun fact is that review bombing is largely similar to DMCA takedown. But also that's the only power people have, if you don't have power you get steamroll by those who have it anyway. This particular case is not absolutely vital but both review bombing and DMCA takedown affect people's incomes. The problem is that deciding what's good or bad outrage is kinda subjective. Maybe being up in arm about "video games" isn't much an issue but what about social issues? To what degree and with what timing (early before it become a problem, or late when it become a problem)?

 

Oh, it'll happen at the dinner table too, or in casual situations. My aunts and uncles don't say it frequently, but they do say it occasionally. I hear it multiple times a year from them (and I typically see them 5 times a year or less). I also recall my grandmother (in her mid-late sixties) last year or so responding to something one of her kids was saying with "nigga please."

Now I'm multiracial, but my family has always lived near the white side of my family and at least an hour away from the black side, so I've grown up in an environment that's predominantly white. So that word is treated like a taboo. So it surprised me a little to hear her say it (especially since she's usually relatively erudite, at least for a woman without a college degree who had 15 children). But the reality is they say it casually.


However, I want to point out that some argue (this isn't necessarily my belief) that the person saying it matters. Saying something that's been used to hurt when it refers to yourself might be a way of taking away the word's power. Saying a word used to hurt when you're part of the group that used to hurt others might be a way of propagating that effect.

I'm not saying that's my belief, but that's one of the arguments.

 

Yes. It's entirely dependent on who is using the word and whom it is directed to. Below is a link (made tiny because the forum software is butchering it) to the Wikipedia article on intragroup versus intergroup usage. Some people even treat it positively if it comes from the right individuals.

http://tinyurl.com/y9ld9lx6

 

I agree. I just know from experience its completely possible for a cracker to be part of the other group. When people just give up on the race thing alltogether something special happens an we can all just be ourselves without one person trying to not hurt anothers feelings by some perceived racist intent that didn't exist.

 

Well that would be best. That's the thing why is racial stuff being dragged into game dev and games to begin with. Don't get me wrong. I have black and indian friends. And I have no idea if those terms are right or wrong. I only know they call me "white boy" or whatever and do I get ticked off and cry about it? No we all laugh because I will say yeah well sorry I am not as toasted as you. White bread. Wheat bread.

My point here is I get real tired of it being presented like it is always some white guy saying these things when I know for a fact it is both sides. BUT every damn time someone makes a remark about race / color is not a reason to automatically get up in arms about it.

I would not call them that n word simply because to me it is an insult although nothing to do with race. To me that particular word means a lazy good for nothing person. And there are white, black red and so forth people that word describes well. And my black and indian friends are nowhere close to being worthless.

But again this guy said the word directed at the game or a character in the game or maybe a player in the game. How in the hell is that racist? Or maybe I am missing something which is quite possible because I don't get into all of this stuff.

Mainly I agree with the posts above it would be good if people can get past this stuff. And not get angry take everything in the worst possible way always assume the worst possible thing. And while we are at it not try to preach not noticing a person's skin color. I mean my friends I don't think about it as far as has no meaning of judgement but I am not blind the same as they aren't when they call me "white boy". It is what it is. Laugh about it move on.

 

I belive this way of thinking is harmful because it draws a distinction between people based on race and is therefore racist itsself. Who said it to who shouldn't matter. What the intended meaning was should. Saying your white so u cant use that word is just as bad as saying your black so u cant use that water fountain. Both white and black people who are against racism make this mistake too frequently, thats why we have a black history month in the usa.

If there were truly no distinctive difference in our views of the capabilites of different races there would be no black history, just history. This is how i believe it should be...no minority rights, no womens rights, just human rights. Continuing to have 2 different groups with 2 sets of standards only furthers the perception of racism

 

Absolutely agree but the problem is people want to be recognized for exceptional things as a race they just don't want to be recognized for bad things as a race. Across the board all races.

I see nothing wrong with acknowledging a person is of a different race but it just shouldn't have any meaning in most situations beyond that. Because what matters most is we are all people. Black, white, red, yellow or purple polka dot is neither here nor there... for most things. Reason I say that is because often people do take pride in their heritage and cultural differences. And they want those to be recognized.

But in the end I think trying to go out of our way to pretend to not notice skin color does more harm than good. It is a lie. I think it makes more sense to acknowledge yeah we all notice it (hell I notice it when my white friends get a very dark tan or are sunburnt red like a lobster)... but it is irrelevant for the most part. Certainly my loyalty isn't guided by it. Because the friendship is stronger than anything else.

 

Exactly. If i say "yea the black guy over there" it should be no different than saying "that chick with the red hair over there. " Appearance should only be used as a visual description and is useful that way but when it come down to it we are just both a sack of meat that derive our functionality based on things other than appearance.

 

That's it entirely. I don't know for 100% certain about my friends. I guess I could ask them. Anyway when I first see them I notice the color / race. 15 minutes later I don't even notice that... at all... any more. Because we are just people hanging out talking whatever. And I am about 95% sure they are the same way. But it is to the point where people even see it as a bad thing that anyone even notices at all. And that is nuts. That doesn't teach acceptance. It is saying lie. Hide your head in the sand. Ignore the reality.

Acknowledging and accepting is far more powerful I think. That has meaning.

 

I'm sorry but your feeling don't matter if you try very hard to be ignorant on the matter. And just because you are black don't mean you are educated on that matter too, but experience do inform much more than stupid rational based on false equivalence, I mean didn't MLK still alive to attest this? You all forget that it wasn't that long ago and now we are almost back to this problem with increase pressure exercise on non white. Yet now you two is discussing that the concern of black people is stupid and you know better than them, which is surprsingly racist, because it mean black can't even be expert in their own experience. I mean the irony is that you recognize that the N word mean a lazy person, why such a word would be used to mean that while also pointing at an entire group? Don't you see it further than notion? But it doesn't matter the obsession of using the word matter much more than simple respect it seems.

I use to be partial to these thought, unfortunately (?) for my project I had to dig in the history and current state of affair, looking at the experience of people at large, including the shady racist site, all I can say is that you are deeply wrong, and that "I don't see color" bullshit play right into the end of racist, that's why they are thriving again, and sniding at their direction do nothing if you are also ignoring when they target us.

 

I feel like this thread will be close because now we are in full political territory lmao.

The more you know about racism, the more you realize it's an inescapable lovecraftian nightmare. You too are basically arguing because you think it could have been you instead of pewd, you are trying to rationalize your fear, it's pretty common and those are largely debunked feeling and argument. But it's only your feeling that will be hurt, we have much more to lose on the other side.

Edit:
Google "the N word argument" to see how common it is, and how old that discussion is and how it always follow the same exact beat, and the conclusion is always the same lol

 

I feel like this thread will close because people are taking it too personally.

 

Is it more personal than the dark skin in unity RFOL

 

I feel like this thread will close because someone mentioned the dark skin.

 

This is an example of assuming the very worst. That was never said. I am fine with getting off this subject completely and never brought it up in the first place. It started out as something different then the entire thread changed to focus on an incident with PDP and the Firewatch devs.

But for the record... I don't think having concerns are stupid if there is a reason for having such concerns. I also think that too many times people misinterpret things and again take things in the worst possible way. And I don't understand why.

I realize that some people can and do make others feel uncomfortable. I remember the first time I hung out with an Indian friend. We had both been pushing hard on projects at work for a long time and that particular day it was about 2 PM. My brain was getting fried. I looked over at him and saw him sitting just looking down. I laughed a bit "yep he must be burnt out too". I said hey man come with me let's get out of here for a bit. We need a break.

So we went out hopped in my truck and headed over to Hobby Lobby hung out for about 40 minutes or so then went back to work. He said "ah Gar thank you very much! You don't know how much I needed that just to get away for a bit. And you know you are very different. Everyone here is nice to me but with you it is like there is no difference at all between us." I just laughed and said "trust me I realize how much you needed it when I looked over and saw you sitting there like a zombie staring at your lap looking very much the way I was feeling... that's why we are out here getting an escape for a bit. And to me there is no difference man except you come from India and I come from here."

And that is how I see it. That doesn't mean that I don't think there is racism and such. I can say that I have never seen it when out and about with those friends and I wouldn't put up with it if I did. And all I was saying is it shouldn't matter. And I don't think it has to be nearly as big of a deal as it is but I do believe that some people are looking for problems all of the time. Like just the tiniest thing they magnify it in their head into something much bigger and I think we were just wondering if it is possible if that is what happened in this case.

Anyway... this is off topic I agree. I've heard enough about PewDiePie and Firewatch. I'm more interested in Steam finding a solution to all of the other review bombing. Like what was going in Greenlight by that one group on Steam. The attack on using store bought assets, making games that are "too mobile", making game that are "too retro", making games that are too whatever... in some group's opinion.

I don't know what that solution will be other than to allow comments / reviews to be reported and someone at Steam will need to investigate and if those reviews are just stupid (like all of the one line "more crap on Steam" reviews and so forth) and have no value other than someone expressing their own personal hate of a given genre or whatever then delete it and tally that hit against them. Get enough strikes and they lose the privilege to review games.

Here is a good example of the kind of review I am talking about for a game called MURI.

If you don't feel like clicking to check it out...

This game is a "DOS-style shooter featuring PC speaker sound and 16-color EGA graphics"

Here is the negative review...

Fairly authentic feeling CGA style DOS sidescroll shooter with stiff jumps and silly level design. It all works fluidly and nice and I found the slight layer of modernity allowed me to perform much better than on real "dump the original code on steam with dosbox" titles from the era. I am not clear on what the rules were coding-wise for CGA but I dont believe this specific color palette actually existed as a hardware limitation back then but that would not matter to me. Not going to recommend because the production values are clearly squarely aimed at a very narrow nostalgia crowd and it would not be responsible to promote it at large based on those merits. I might play it for an extended session later out of nostalgia and find that it is unbearable and remove it I am kind of on the fence really. Got the Xbox360 pad working fine during my playtest.

That is a stupid review. Anyone looking at the game knows immediately to expect an old DOS EGA style game. It is a way for someone to bash something they don't like and try to make it sound like they are doing a good deed for Steam. And the crazy thing is he is making up stuff even such as he is not sure if these graphics really fit the limitations of DOS CGA games.... well no kidding nobody except him said anything about CGA the description says EGA. He just doesn't want that game (or that kind of game) on Steam.

But that is just one of countless examples and this one is very mild compared to most. But Steam is filled with these kind of garbage reviews and I wish they could do something to clean it up.

 

Way off topic.