Steam Greenlight

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Don't be stingy ony....

 

Ahem... anyway... we now return you to the discussion on Steam, already in progress.

 

I can at least throw my own experience in here. I finished creating a bunch of marketing materials for Invisigun Heroes to submit to Indiecade and PAX, and figured I might as well use them to set up the green light page. I made it live, fully intending it to be buried, but wanted to at least have it up so I can drive traffic to it in social media and at future cons.

To my surprise it was greenlit in less than two weeks. People have talked about the mysterious black box of green light, and I'm even more puzzled than before. It was greenlit with a 36% yes rating, and about 540 yes votes - which seems lower than some other games. It does make me think that it's not just numbers and perhaps Valve does make some executive decisions if games do seem legit.

I'm very thankful that I don't need to put effort into pushing the green light page - that is a huge load off my mind. In my opinion I put it up too early as the game is undergoing major overhauls at the moment.

In case you're interested I'm keeping a partial dev log on these forums:

http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/invisigun-heroes.324414/

I do think it's getting easier (and perhaps Valve is working towards eliminating green light), and you should definitely be encouraged to go for it. But do wait until you have very presentable materials and development is pretty far along. You'll get a ton of exposure the first week just from being in the new section on green light, so you want to maximize that potential.

 

To the fortunate people on Steam currently: How much of a say do you have over the percentiles off products when discounts happen? Do you ever get to discuss with someone at Steam things of that nature? I can imagine those 1/2 day free game periods would be really good at getting publicity and new customers afterwards.

 

You could always try. No point getting angry about something that hasn't happened yet???

 

Ive already been in contact with Steam and they don't accept content focused on sex. The erotic visual novels that are on there have had to remove the sex in order to be sold.

Even the Unity Asset Store wrote me back to say that they wouldn't accept an asset that was sounds of love, sex, and orgasm, but they happily sell and showcase assets featuring the sounds (and visuals) of bone-breaking, death, and murder.

I'm not angry, just perplexed. But... You're right. I've decided to put together a build and ready it for Greenlight. We'll see what happens from there.

 

IMO, I think the reason they dont allow sex related stuff is kids use their products.

Now, youre probably thinking, but kids are exposed to both, sure, this is true, but parents are much happier to allow a kid to be exposed to violence, but less so sex. Sex is, and will always be an adult thing.

 

Every other artistic medium allows the freedom to represent sexuality. Traditional art, literature, music, film. All of those art forms are enjoyed equally by children and adults. All of those art forms are afforded retail space. Sexual-focused (albeit some (music) with warning labels) alongside non-sexual.

We still, for some reason, treat video games as if they are only for children. We do not, as a society, allow video games the same artistic merit and spectrum coverage as other art forms are afforded and encouraged to represent. As game developers and players, one would think we would have a problem with this. Our chosen art form is being restricted. Art itself is being censored and controlled, because... kids might see it. But no one bats an eye. No one says, "hey, that's not fair!" Instead they say, "take your porn elsewhere".

As long as we keep making excuses for this, and as long as we keep ignoring this, as long we say sex is bad and violence is good, video games will continue to be seen as "for kids" and not as the art form they are.

 

Just out of interest, why did you decide to make sex games?

It seems an unusual career path to choose.

Was your thinking... how can I create a career out of the two things I like most?

Have you tried making games about giant hedgehogs that spin around and collect rings instead?

 

I worked in the AAA industry for years, on big titles. After I left to start my own thing, I got a few large contracts with developers and did those. Then I was sitting around bored one day and thought, "I should make a game with nude girls in it" because I thought it would sell. And it did. And my very first customer was someone who is very well known in the industry, and that made me smile. And so, I did it again and again. For fifteen years now.

Plus, I like sex.

 

Yeah, disallowing XXX games (and games that aren't porn, but just flashes boob here and there) while allowing Murder Simulator 3000 Now With Extra Chainsaws seems bit backward to me as well. You allow people to murder violently (even if the case is just, it's still a murder), sometimes with things like rocket launchers or freaking tanks, but you don't want people to see parts of human body? Boo-hoo.

But what can you do?

 

Not much I guess.
This is a deep cultural issue. Especially in North America, where you can carry around your guns openly, while a mother breastfeeding her baby in public, draws huge controversies.

 

So, revisiting this post (see my original response above)...

On the Greenlight page, it says:

********************
Additionally, you agree not to post any item to Greenlight that contains the following:

• Someone else's game or software, unless you have specific authorization to do so
• Porn, inappropriate or offensive content, warez, or leaked content
• Cheating, hacking, or game exploits
• Threats of violence or harassment, even as a joke
• Games or software using copyrighted material such as assets or intellectual property without permission from the owner
• Soliciting, begging, auctioning, selling, advertising, referrals, racism, or discrimination

Abuse of Steam Greenlight will forfeit your Submission fee and result in a ban from Steam Community Services

********************

Given that I have been a member of Steam for over 10 years, I have no desire to be banned from the community for trying to put my game up. "Hatred" is apparently not considered inappropriate, but I have no doubt that a sex game would be, since it, for some people, falls under the "porn", "inappropriate", and "offensive" guidelines.

So, do I risk losing my account because I feel my art is just as valid as anyone else's? Or do I avoid posting to Steam because, you know, sex is icky and doesn't belong in video games?

I just wrote to them with clarification on what my game is, where they can find it, and if it would be ok to submit to Greenlight. I'll update this post with their reply.

 

@Ony , Greenlight explicit forbid any kind of sex games. I doubt you will have any change to deal with them.

 

Just create a separate Steam account for your game submission. Don't use a 10 year ago Steam account that you use to purchase and play games for a Steam Greenlight submission, especially if there is any risk of violating their policies.

 

You can always submit some non-sex games on Greenlight, wait till you're successful enough to get "steam rights" (pushing things directly to the store without going through GL) and then publish your game.

 

Yeah, I thought of that last night after posting. I guess it wouldn't hurt to separate the two accounts.

Uhm... That would require having games that are ready to be submitted. It also ignores the point that my creations aren't allowed when everyone else's are. I'm sick of hiding in the shadows pretending that's alright.

 

"Steam rights"? I'm pretty sure that only applies for major partners. All regular indies need to go through Greenlight everytime they have a new title (a sequel or expansion of a good game can bypass this ofc).

 

You are right about the double standard regarding violence vs sex. The game called "Hatred" is allowed on Steam. I guess senseless violence is kid friendly.

Build a bunch of buzz before you post it to Greenlight. Then let all of us know the moment you put it on Greenlight, so we can all Yes vote it at the same time before it gets taken down. If there were thousands of Yes votes, I think Valve's greed might slide it through Greenlight. I am not personally interested in playing a game about sex, but I would definitely Yes vote the game as a matter of principle.

 

I think the difference is that with violence is fake in films. Whereas you can't fake nudity.

 

That's what I was thinking but then it occurred to me that you can totally fake nudity with CGI.

 

I don't really understand this argument, but I see it all the time. It honestly makes no sense to me.

A nude body isn't sex. It's a... uhm...human body. If you're talking about sex and not just nudity, though... Violence in film is fake, yes, but so is sex. Violence in a game is fake. Sex in a game is fake. Violence in a boxing match is real, and sex in a porn film is real. And? This argument makes absolutely no sense to me, no matter how I try to wrap my brain around it, yet I see it trotted out every time the issue of sex vs. violence comes up.

Anyway... I don't want this thread to be derailed and locked because it turns into a discussion about things other than Steam. My point is, whatever your personal beliefs are about sex being horrible and violence being super cool, my art, my means of expression, is being hidden and censored and not allowed alongside other just as visceral types of art and expression. If extreme brutal violence is perfectly fine in a video game marketplace, then sex should be as well.

Props, by the way, to itch.io and Patreon, because they at least have the ovaries to allow me a space to sell my games, the way I choose to express them, which feature content that does absolutely no harm to anyone.

 

Just a follow-up on the email message I sent to Steam, to find out if my game would be ok to submit. Here's what I sent them on the 24th of July:

Hello,

Recently, I released a game that has a strong focus on sexuality. The game is fully playable and is in continuous development. It's a sci-fi game and my goal is to work it towards being a full-on sci-fi RPG with sex as just one of the many things players can do, but for the time being the main focus is on the sex.

You can find it here: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Your terms of service are slightly vague and open to interpretation when it comes to what's allowed (at least to me). I assume since "Hatred" was allowed on Steam, being a game focused on extreme brutal violence, that a game focused on sexuality and relationships would be fine, but I did want to make sure before spending the time and money to submit.

Would my game be ok to submit to Greenlight?

Thank you so much,
Ony

Here's what they wrote back...

Oh wait, sorry. Nothing. They haven't written back. I'm still waiting. Have a feeling I'll be waiting for a while.

 

Who defines what's offensive? Maybe you could make a fuss about how offensive you find all the violent games, & the obsessive use of blood, gore, guns, chainsaws etc to see if they then take those types of games down because someone contacted them to say they are offensive? Or do the games go onto a black light list to get votes on how offensive they are?

 

Thing is, I don't find violent games offensive. I quite like violent games. I'm a product of American culture, and born and raised in an ultra conservative Christian family. The two of those combined means a comfortability with violence runs thickly through my blood. So I wouldn't want to make a fuss about something that I actually enjoy. I think both sex and violence deserve a place in art. Every other artistic medium wholeheartedly agrees. It's just video games as an art form that are so squeamish about the whole thing.

 

They don't need to know that tho.

I know they wouldn't do anything but while their terms are vague & they don't give an indication of who decides if something is offensive or how many people have to vote on it etc then they will be open to argument & challenge but they feel safe behind their wall of money & lawyers that indies can't afford to cross.

 

I don't think this is Steam issue this is an issue with Western society in general and America in particular as it was founded mostly by Puritans. And in Britain we still have hang ups from the Victorian era of modesty.

I'm sure if Steam was owned by the French, Germans, or Dutch for example, then you could have as many boobs as you liked in your game!

 

And China, the Middle East, most of Latin America. In fact, pretty much everywhere has a problem with boobs other than those few places you listed. And Japan. They love boobs in Japan.

 

I'm a bit in the same case as you as I have a side-project of an interactive novel for next year with some nude content in it (not necessarly "sexy" in itself as it's much inspired by 70's cinema, when nudity was more casual than today) and for me the only commercially viable solution is to do the same trick than in cinema: do two versions...

For Steam and other mainstream platforms, put some clothes on characters (yeah, that means making two different set of assets) and change some parts of the story slightly and most important : let it know that's it's a censored version and where customers can find the "director's cut" (or rather the "dev's cut" in our case ^o^) like on itch.io or other platforms with less constraints.

To make it aware that steam/greenlight version is censored, just put a watermark on screenshots and on title screen, instead of " Steam V1.0", put "Censored Steam V1.0" and such, so the public knows they're not playing the "real thing". Personally, that's how I plan to do it...

More "Seduce Me"and less "Hatred"....

 

Or Japanese.

 

I highly doubt the Hatred dev asked anybody at Steam if it would be ok to post Hatred. I doubt anybody from Steam would want to go on record saying that any hypothetical game would be fine to post or not fine to post. So the lack of a response is the correct response for them. Honestly, you should get your game on Greenlight and get a bunch of yes votes instead of asking Steam for permission.

 

Yeah like I say that's pretty much what I'm going to do. Just wanted to write and see if they had an answer before I spend $100 to find out.

 

I'm not sure if you have the right picture regarding adult content and Japan.
On one hand, yes Japan has a huge porn industry (and the biggest adult comic and -game industry in particular) and people reading even such comics on the train ride.
But on the other hand, Japan has a really odd censoring law which does not allow to show genitalia even in porn. If you still do, you get arrested. That happened to a few comic artists and AV producers.

 

I beg to differ on what Japan values here:
Each year they have a HUGE penis festival.
http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5106378

 

Oh the good old huffpost click bait articles
Gives you a nice distorted picture about japanese society.

This festival indeed exists and it get's more popular each year. Especially by tourists thanks to the western media. It's not even the only festival of that kind in Japan. But it's not a huge deal in Japan as you might think.
And it still doesn't change the fact that Japan has a censoring law, prohibiting to show the interesting bits.

But to go back to the original topic (somehow)
If you have already a fanbase build around your activities in this field, you may be better off with Patreon. Some people make ten thousands of dollars each month over there with adult content.
Steam on the other hand isn't the money printing machine it used to be, thanks to Greenlight and it's neverending stream of garbage and the Steam sales.

They don't want your game, but allowing mindless stuff like Hatred? Cool, their loss I'd say.

 

Yup that's where my game is currently (also on itch.io), and slowly gaining a following. I know Steam is not like it used to be, most definitely. I complain about the sex\violence issue more as a matter of artistic indignance than commerce.

 

Steam Greenlight is a nightmare. The system is just not working. 99% of peoples who votes on Greenlight are angry developers uber biased, and not potential customers.

The 50% limit is an aberration. You cant satisfy anyone. Even if you have 5% likes, is good for sales, because your game is what those 5% peoples want and like and is enough. If you have even more, can be a hit.

Also, reading Greenlight comments, is pure comedy. Some commenters expect behind a game to be always an AAA company with millions of dollar behind, and they aren't satisfied with anything. They don't realize almost all Greenlight titles are made by indie, with limited budgets and resources.

 

@Ony , in the meanwhile..... you can find THIS on steam.....
isn't it kinda weird to you ?
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?l=french&id=404111723

i agree with all your posts btw.

 

@antislash MAN! That game if have 3 likes, is good for sale really. If you don't put it on sale, means that 3 persons who like the game can't play it. Maybe those 3 persons don't like any other games, but likes that one. Is this fair? No, this is some form of "racism".

 

racism ? wow thats is harsh ! no racism ever on my part, i just find the theme of this game ambiguious.

 

Racism? haha wtf, you don't know what racism means, kid.

 

Any form of discrimination.

"kid" ?? haha.. OK!

 

No, dude, racism is not any form of discrimination, is a specific form of discrimination based on race.

I really hope you were just trying to make some lame joke because comparing racism to an innofensive comment is not nice.

 

Started as "discrimination based on race". We are not in 1900 anymore. Today racism/discrimination almost represent same thing and is widely used and accepted to represent same thing.

Let's stop here this discussion about that word, because I know there are peoples who vibrate more that necessary on this.

 

Sure, pal, backpedal all you want.

 

No, is not a taboo word, and is used correctly in context. If you want to make a drama around it, go for, I don't join

 

That game has over 2000 reviews, which means it may have sold over 100,000 copies.

It also got the thumbs up from jim sterling.

Shower with your dad simulator... good job boys.

 

why not... i just find the theme strange, can i ?
naked men, naked kids.... this is all ok because they are pixels... i cannot imagine this with full 3 d models..see?

 

uh sure, i was just responding to someone saying there were 3 likes on it, by saying that they probably broke 100k sales.