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SpeedTree for Unity

Discussion in 'Assets and Asset Store' started by Dannyoakes, Jul 12, 2016.

  1. Velo222

    Velo222

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    Hey guys,

    I'm wanting to get SpeedTree trees that are pretty "bendable". I noticed when I use SpeedTree tree's in Unity's terrain system, the "bendability" option goes away, and the couple trees I've used only bend a little bit, but not much. So, I wondering if there's a way to get SpeedTree tree's that are more bendable. Think of a tree in a hurricane, how it bends and bows from the force of the wind. That's what I'm going for. Is this possible?

    Perhaps the SpeedTree editor allows you to do this? Thanks for any info.
     
  2. gecko

    gecko

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    Any suggestions for improving performance? I'm testing a 6x6km terrain in unity 5.6 b11, with quite a few trees (not sure exactly how many, but over 5,000 at least). Using standard unity terrain trees, I get 15-18ms on my MacBook Pro with GeForce 750m card. When I swap in a speedtree tree , even after deselecting LOD smoothness and light probes, I get 25-45ms. Tried both desktop and mobile models from the Free pack on the asset store. I wouldn't mind paying a small penalty for speedtree, but not that much. Any optimization suggestions?
     
  3. wood333

    wood333

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    I am far from the expert on this, but based on discussions on the GAIA thread and others, one thing to do is to remove some of the colliders from the tree and go with one on the trunk.
     
  4. Assembler-Maze

    Assembler-Maze

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    Try out my system (critias tree system in the signature). There's not any optimization that you can do with the current unity implementation, unfortunately. Nothing helps after a certain number of trees has been reached.
     
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  5. AdamGoodrich

    AdamGoodrich

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    TeagansDad, trilobyteme and hopeful like this.
  6. Assembler-Maze

    Assembler-Maze

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    Yes if your scene is of a decent size, you should not need to use any 3rd parties. But after a certain threshold, things go quite bad.

    But first yea, I would recommend everyone to try the workarounds before trying out anything 3rd party...
     
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  7. trilobyteme

    trilobyteme

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    @Velo222 yes the speedtree modeler has tools to let you modify how your trees perform and bend in the wind (including a 'wind wizard' that can cover a lot of typical settings with a few clicks).

    @AdamGoodrich great tutorial, thanks for posting and sharing those tips.

    It's also worth adding that if you've got a subscription to the Speedtree modeler (it's month-to-month, so you don't need to commit to something lengthy or expensive), you can tweak any of your existing Speedtree models (including free or purchased assets), including optimizing them for your needs (removing branches to reduce polygon count, etc).

    @Dannyoakes can you tell us anything about Speedtree 8 for Unity? I saw the announcement at GDC about The LumberYard version (really? I hope Amazon gave you a big pile of cash to be first hehe), and I'm curious about both the timing of a Unity version, as well as any info on whether Speedtree would be updating the existing trees in the Unity and Speedtree asset stores to take advantage of the PBR features in the new version.

    I went into Speedtree back in December with the intention of making a bunch of trees for a project I was working on, then pull the plug and have an art kit folder full of tree models. It was easy to use and I accomplished my mission, but between having a lot of fun making things and getting a couple free goodies each month with the subscription, I found myself keeping the subscription going and now I'm doing stuff like taking pictures of interesting tree bark and plant leaves and flowers when I see them so I can have something to play around with in. The modeler.

    Performance has been my number one issue lately, but I ADMIT i've been working on some particularly dense projects and I'm still new enought to Unity that there's a lot I could learn about optimization. I'm looking forward to applying some of the tips @AdamGoodrich suggests in that tutorial, and hope Unity puts some work into performance on their end as well.
     
  8. CaliCoastReplay

    CaliCoastReplay

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    Hey all!

    I absolutely love the SpeedTrees included with the Standard Assets - really brings life to the scene I've been working on to showcase some of my materials!



    However this is a package intended for the Unity Store - and I notice in the Store licensing agreements/requirements that SpeedTrees can't be repackaged in the Store, even the ones included in Standard Assets.

    Is this correct?

    I'd love to find a way to add some trees to the demo scene I'm including for these materials, but if the license says no, I'll find another solution.
     
  9. Dannyoakes

    Dannyoakes

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    In regards to SpeedTree 8 and Unity, I don't have anything that I can talk about right this moment. As soon as I do you'll be the first to know!

    We had some very productive meetings at GDC that I hope will lead to improvements down the road.



    Hey Cali! Glad you're loving the SpeedTrees. The trees included in the Unity Standard Assets are actually the exception to the rule and are free to be distributed in any project on the Unity Store.
     
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  10. Soul-Challenger

    Soul-Challenger

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    Is there any specific reason why SpeedTree collider(s) are not properly rotated when painted on the terrain with randomRotation? Or is that a bug?
     
  11. adventurefan

    adventurefan

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    So is the speedtree 8 update kind of out of luck this year with the 5 cycle ending? That would be a shame.
     
  12. elbows

    elbows

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    I'm not quite getting the idea of why the end of the 5.x cycle would have any particular impact on next gen speedtree coming to unity? The Unity release cycle isnt really changing much with 2017 compared to 5 from what I can tell, so there are not fewer opportunities to add new speedtree stuff at some stage with 2017 (or 2018 or whenever)

    I'm sure there are a number of other commercial and technical factors that will ultimately determine the timing behind this stuff, including when it ends up arriving in the engine that has signed up to get it first.
     
  13. adventurefan

    adventurefan

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    I guess that depends on the reality of how quickly they get out of beta with 2017. I wasn't expecting it fast, so in that case, it could be awhile.
     
  14. elbows

    elbows

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    I doubt the next gen speedtree stuff is planned for 2017.1 anyway, I could be wrong but I am expecting to wait quite a lot of months. Without official announcements I cannot even assume the new speedtree stuff is coming to unity - deals may need to be struck that havent been yet.
     
  15. makeshiftwings

    makeshiftwings

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    I hope you can give us some info soon. I have my own possibly paranoid ideas of what is happening right now... if I were to guess, Unity's upcoming Vegetation System will replace SpeedTree because they want to avoid tying users to the third party subscription fee, the same way they dumped Mixamo after they had replaced it with Mecanim. SpeedTree is going to get absorbed by Amazon and new updates will only be for Lumberyard. Eventually SpeedTree will give away the old version of the SpeedTree Modeler and the non-PBR importer for free to Unity and UE4 users via an ad-supported website thingie like Mixamo did after they got absorbed. End result is no PBR SpeedTree support planned for Unity. Am I on the mark? ;)
     
  16. Flurgle

    Flurgle

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    I hope amazon didn't buy speedtree :)

    Unity Vegetation System would be amazing, especially with PBR, and good foliage shaders. There's no reason why we can't have both either.
     
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  17. Dannyoakes

    Dannyoakes

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    Let me ease your paranoia by saying that NONE of this is true, or even close to true. :)
     
  18. Dannyoakes

    Dannyoakes

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    That may be a bug, I'll have to look into it. As far as I know they should be rotating, i.e. if you've got a collider attached to the branch it will rotate to stay aligned with the branch.
     
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  19. makeshiftwings

    makeshiftwings

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    Could you maybe give us a guess of how likely it will be to get PBR SpeedTrees in Unity? I remember in 2015 it was "just around the corner"... now we're half way through 2017 and still no info. It seems like Lumberyard gets PBR textures, is there some sort of exclusivity agreement with Amazon where they're the only ones who can have roughness textures for a year that we need to wait out?
     
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  20. trilobyteme

    trilobyteme

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    Even from the GDC press release for Speedtree 8, it says coming first to Amazon lumberyard... not only or exclusively.
     
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  21. makeshiftwings

    makeshiftwings

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    Yeah but often these sorts of agreements have a period of exclusivity; Amazon pays them a bunch of money to be the only ones allowed to have PBR textures for a year or something similar. It would be good to know if we're waiting for an exclusivity period to end or if we're just waiting for the developers to make an exporter that saves the textures as png files or something.
     
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  22. Dorian-Dowse

    Dorian-Dowse

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    Hi, I'm having a problem with detail textures on Speedtrees. They look fine in the modeller, but in Unity they look terrible. I've tried all sorts of things to no avail. I'm using the detail to add an outer layer of bark at the bottom of the trunk. In Unity there is a noticeable line at the top of the detail's mask.

    SpeedtreeIssue1.JPG SpeedtreeIssue2.JPG
     
  23. Deleted User

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    Speed tree for unity don't work properly. If you have the one hudred speed trees, get ready to fall your FPS. Not the 6-12 speed trees. One hundred on the screen.
    I was download some packs.
    1. Tree leaves change color with distance.
    2. LOD's trunk of the tree does not match. The fading from-to LODs is slow and ugly.
    3. Very low FPS. Forget the realtime shadows
    4. Forget the lightmap baking to your speed tree. It is not working. And fall unity enlighten.
    It is absoluttely useless.
    The static 300k polygon tree models working faster.
    And by the Way. Unity tree more usefull than speed tree.
     
  24. trilobyteme

    trilobyteme

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    That has not been my experience with Unity 5.5 or 5.6. My scene's got tens of thousands of Bpeedtree trees, and a similar number of bushes (also Speedtrees). At any given time, there are more than a hundred Speedtree objects on screen.

    I couldn't really comment on leaves changing color over distance - that isn't something I've experienced personally. In the case of any of the downloaded or purchased Speedtree content, I've spent a fair amount of time tinkering around with the design in the Speedtree moderls. That wasn't because I was experiencing any problems with downloaded or purchased packs, I just wanted to create something more unique.

    I recommend checking out the post from @AdamGoodrich earlier in the thread, the blog post he links to has excellent tips for optimizing performance. In particular, make sure you adjust the models and the terrain settings so that they do not use light probes for trees - turning that off means Unity can use GPU instancing to render them.

    Me personally, on either Speedtree or any other LOD group, if I notice a visible pop or transition between LOD groups, I tweak the slider on the LOD group so that the transition happens a little further away.
     
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  25. Dorian-Dowse

    Dorian-Dowse

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    So 2 weeks go by and no reply. Is there someone from Speedtree monitoring this thread?

     
  26. trilobyteme

    trilobyteme

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    I think the only staffer checking this thread is @Dannyoakes - you might also want to try posting in the Speedtree forums, there appear to be other staffers as well as some seasoned expert tree artists who may be able to help.

    I would also imagine that with E3 happening this week, they have been in crazy crazy all-hands-on-deck mode helping their big studio clients (Ubisoft, etc) getting things sorted for all the splashy demos. On that note, I'm taking the Far Cry 5 demo and gameplay video shown this week as being teaser videos for Speedtree 8. Yeah, that's the Cryengine/Lumberyard version... but a pretty nice glimpse into the future nonetheless.
     
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  27. magique

    magique

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    Does anyone know of any more information regarding UBER developer's SpeedTreeHD that was talked about last year?
     
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  28. twda

    twda

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    This thread is sooooo dead.
    What a pity since SpeedTree is officially supported by Unity.
    I bought so many of them, and I'm really disappointed.
    Other vendors even offer their trees with translucency and other AAA stuff.
    I would have been better off investing my money elsewhere.
     
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  29. AdamGoodrich

    AdamGoodrich

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    As I understand it, Unity are the ones that support the SpeedTree shader, not SpeedTree, so I don't think they get much say, which is a pity as I am sure they would like to unlock more of the capabilities of their technology.

    SpeedTree 8 on Lumberyard looks amazing! Wish Unity would do more with this.
     
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  30. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Well there's absolutely nothing stopping speedtree from providing shaders if they feel it will sell more units.

    But really, what stops unity and speedtree from doing so is that it requires invasive rendering changes to do say, transmission and things like that. But that's a feature of SRP HD path, so it should become easier.
     
  31. AdamGoodrich

    AdamGoodrich

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    Yes I have made the same comment to them - but as you also point out there needed to be some changes to unity - however with the latest instancing stuff - it's now possible i think to do this.

    A friend of mine doing an awesome job on this product - it will be a game changer for Unity I think:
    https://forum.unity.com/threads/wip-vegetation-studio.479244/
     
  32. twda

    twda

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    Yes, I know this, I love it, but it has nothing to do with SpeedTree. What I expected from SpeedTree was a good shader with the appropriate materials. The materials that I get with SpeedTree are poor in comparison to other vegetation assets. So I don't know if you posted your (very nice) post here just for everybody to know or if it was really in response to my post.

    The vegetation in the assets you mentioned are just sooo great, but they're still relatively few ones. I hope that the author finds the time to work on more.
     
  33. larsbertram1

    larsbertram1

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    you are kind of right. it is more a response to:
    . so even without having the srl you can already do better shading which – however – needs you to have proper models. right now speedtrees would not look very nice because of their super smoothed normals.
     
  34. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    True indeed you can have a vast array of beautiful shaders, but terrain and standard shaders lag behind in progress because to do things right in a way people expect/demand based on competition, you need to be a little bit invasive, and SRP hopes to fix that I think.

    It's true I think Unity could have done better but these are basically hard problems because you can do too much as well. Still, we have asset store ;)
     
  35. trilobyteme

    trilobyteme

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    The Speedtree folks are actually pretty hard at work on stuff, it's just that assets for Unity are not their only (or even primary) concern. Their tools and trees are used for visual effects in films, as well as the very big game studios. As such, their highest priorities are to get things right for those customers and projects, and then when possible they develop for game engines. In the case of Speedtree 8, Lumberyard wound up being first because the tech behind it was primarily for some big game studio project that used cryengine. They're currently working on a number of feature film projects, and from the recent Siggraph show it looks like Speedtree Cinema is probably next on the list. On one hand it's a bummer that Unity wasn't first, but on the other hand when we do get a new version it will hopefully have fewer bugs and other issues.
     
  36. magique

    magique

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    I think SpeedTree should have a dedicated team to each platform and then their new technology could roll out on all platforms simultaneously.
     
  37. elbows

    elbows

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    Although they may also be resource-limited, some of these decisions are for commercial reasons. For example it is reasonable to assume that maybe, given the nature of the SpeedTree 8 Lumberyard release, that the timing reasons go beyond what trilobyteme mentioned above. eg a deal was certainly done with Amazon to make the modeller app available for free for that platform (with a caveat or 2) and we dont know if any deal also included a period of exclusivity.
     
  38. makeshiftwings

    makeshiftwings

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    I said a few years ago when Unity announced that they were working on their own new Vegetation System to replace SpeedTree that both sides were probably going to stop supporting each other. I think, in typical Unity fashion, they said "OMG our new replacement for SpeedTree is almost done!!!" and then realized they still had about four more years worth of work to fix all the bugs. To be fair, if I was SpeedTree, I also would have said "screw Unity" and pulled all the devs off of any Unity support to move them all to Lumberyard, where Amazon was offering millions of dollars and guaranteed long term investment. Why would SpeedTree continue to support an engine that just announced it was trying to make a replacement so that users would not have to pay SpeedTree any money?
     
  39. trilobyteme

    trilobyteme

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    I'm no expert, but think dedicated teams for each platform would be a bad idea. I think it would actually lead to quirks and problems on each platform (since you'd effectively be having each developed by a different group of people), which in turn leads to burning more resources in synchronizing the experience and performance across them. That, and of course a 3-5x (or more) increase in development and support overhead would probably lead to a significant increase in cost.
     
  40. Assembler-Maze

    Assembler-Maze

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    I am not sure that if Unity introduces it's own veggy system it will deprecate SpeedTree.

    If I expect the unity guys to make a grass system it'll be like UE's one (or like mine, you can paint anything anywhere: CritiasFoliage). You add your own foliage with your own shaders and Unity will take care of rendering. I don't see where SpeedTree would be deprecated. In UE I have the same workflow. I create some of my foliage in SpeedTree some in Blender I add my custom shader and add it to their foliage system.

    I am certainly that it won't deprecate SP. SpeedTree is an awesome tool created to develop awesome vegetation NOT to properly render and pass it through the engine's pipeline. Even the shaders that they provide are not very advanced and do not look very awesome. For example in UE I always modify the SP shaders by adding texture details, moss and others.

    It's clearly that they didn't had rendering/shading in mind when they created SP. I also know that most people grab the model made in SpeedTree, pass it through Maya or anything else to make it fit their workflow and use it after.

    Take Uncharted 4 for example. I've saw in the credits that they use SpeedTree. However they added their own wind system to it and they textured/rendered the trees using their internal workflow. I think even the tree's billboards were generated in their unified billboarding pipeline.

    And did that all stopped them from using SpeedTree? Absolutely not...
     
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  41. elbows

    elbows

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    Is that what Unity actually announced? Maybe it was but I dont remember it like that, I thought the emphasis was on foliage placement and new terrain system. Can you point me to somewhere they announced the stuff you mentioned? I have a vague memory of some vegetation stuff that means I can well believe you are right, but I like detail.

    I'm not privy to how the relationship between Untiy and SpeedTree has actually evolved behind the scenes, but I certainly dont like to make assumptions, and there is important data that I lack. For example the number of Unity SpeedTree models that have actually been sold to customers, and modeller subscriptions, is the sort of thing that usually influences a commercial relationship. And some of the future tools unity have talked about, if they make the general terrain and foliage systems better, can theoretically help SpeedTree sales rather than simply being something that kills their sales. Depends on detail and as I already said I am a bit confused as to whether what Unity have planned for the future is a SpeedTree killer.

    As a user I was unimpressed that SpeedTree for Unity was one of those headline features for a major new Unity version that didnt seem to get much love after initial fanfare, including during a number of important Unity point releases, some of which broke some SpeedTree stuff visually if I remember correctly. It was one of the few occasions I've moaned at Unity on these forums, because the issues were not being properly acknowledged and addressed, and to be fair not long afterwards one or two Unity people did start talking about SpeedTree on the forums again and I think some stuff got fixed.

    So yeah, I lack clarity about the future and despite not wanting to make any assumptions, I certainly dont have any particular reason to think the future will see this stuff evolve in a more satisfying manner than happened during the first years of the relationship.

    Some of the issues might be to do with bad timing in terms of which technologies were available in SpeedTree and Unity and how well they gelled as a result. Inadequacies with unity terrain, vegetation etc havent helped, and gpu instancing wasnt around when SpeedTree for Unity landed. And even with GPU instancing it seems likely that a fair chunk of bottleneck just shows up elsewhere, still waiting to be eliminated when various other chunks of unity are refactored. Then there were some changes Unity felt they needed to make in certain 5.X versions, often related to shaders and lighting, which ended up being breaking changes for quite a lot of assets. And to pick an obvious example where it was SpeedTree that was behind the times, Unity 5 was all about PBR but the ability of SpeedTree to make proper use of that stuff only comes with SpeedTree 8. I bring all these up to highlight the role that unfortunate timing can have, not to moan about them all over again! But it would be rather useful for planning purpose to know more than we do now about the likely future for SpeedTree and Unity.
     
  42. larsbertram1

    larsbertram1

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    a lot of studios use the speedtree modeler to generate a first rough outline for a tree – as it is just very quick and easy. but i doubt that any line of speed tree specific code can be found in uncharted 4.
     
  43. Assembler-Maze

    Assembler-Maze

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    Yea, my point exactly. They just generated the trees there as the first pass but the rendering/wind etc was completely theirs. There's also a nice siggraph made by them on that. However I know that there is an AAA studio out there that used the built-in speedtree's lod-ing and culling mechanism, with very good results.
     
  44. trilobyteme

    trilobyteme

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    It's worth noting that Speedtree Cinema 8 was just announced/launched today. They also appear to have greatly expanded on the tree asset library (from Speedtree Cinema v7), and the individual trees appear to be less expensive than buying tree assets in the previous version.

    Reaching out via Twitter, I finally got an answer from them regarding assets purchased from Speedtree (either via asset store or directly)... there is no upgrade path. The Speedtree v8 modeler will be able to open v7 content, but they will not be updating any purchase trees/plants/grasses for existing customers.

    That, to me, is a massive shame. Instead of rewarding loyal customers and subscribers to the modeler, they are leaving them out in the cold. Other Unity nature asset mfr's offer free or deeply discounted updates when they update their asset packs, but not Speedtree. I hope they reconsider.
     
  45. magique

    magique

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    It doesn't work with Unity though or does it?
     
  46. Dannyoakes

    Dannyoakes

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    So there isn't any confusion:

    1. SpeedTree Cinema is not compatible with Unity, we'll be announcing plans regarding SpeedTree and Unity at a later date.

    2. The new v8 library is built from the ground up with new geometry, textures, and techniques than our old models. Our old models won't stop working with the release of v8, but the two libraries are simply not analogous. If you're curious to see what the game library will look like, you can take a look at our lumberyard trees. Species packs will include saplings, seedlings, forest and field models in multiple resolutions. This is a big departure from our current library and is not even remotely an update of current models. It's a whole new product.

    SpeedTree 7 models will still be available for purchase alongside SpeedTree 8 models.

    3. We're not ready to talk about what's in store for SpeedTree and Unity, but we're excited about what's coming. In the meantime keep an eye out for more sales and promotions on both the Unity asset store and the SpeedTree store.

    Thanks,
    Danny
     
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  47. trilobyteme

    trilobyteme

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    RIght, as Danny mentioned Speedtree Cinema is not compatible with Speedtree for Unity (just like Speedtree for Lumberyard and Speedtree for Unreal engine are not compatible). There's a bunch more information about what it is for, as well as the various trees in that library (as well as the lumberyard library) on speedtree.com
     
  48. castor76

    castor76

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    So to subscribe to speed tree or not at the moment? It looks like the speed tree still isn't supporting Unity pbr lighting.
     
  49. castor76

    castor76

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    Also, I can't see any vertex color AO for speed tree (the default free one). Very strange.

    And... This may sounds like a stupid questions, but I tried to bake light map on the speed trees but I can't get it to bake properly. Looking at the map, its uv seems to be not right, and I have no control over how to layout light map uvs for the trees... I may be at 100% wrong track here as I may not supposed to be using lightmap for the trees, but then how can I bake static shadows for the trees , otherwise? I don't want to use terrain, I just want to place trees on the mesh and generate static shadow on both land and on the tree itself.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2017
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  50. Thall33

    Thall33

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    Book of the dead teaser. Animated, baked simulation or an alpha version test for speed tree 8? It's coming guys, hang in there!
     
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