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Someone is trying to inject their own c# into a built game

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by artiszinbergs, Jan 26, 2021.

  1. artiszinbergs

    artiszinbergs

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    I have a released game on steam and I have seen couple reports on cloud diagnostics about null exceptions in code that doesn't exist in the game. This is clearly someone trying to inject their own c# code to manipulate the game. Is there anything I can do that would disallowed this kind of behaviour?

    This is the callstack that I get on the report. I replaced the games name with <name>.

    <game>Cheat.Cheats.Norecoil.OnEnable () (at <ed1a0fb7aee94c6186d9476704482bed>:0)
    UnityEngine.GameObject:AddComponent(Type)
    ThunderSharp.Managers.CheatManager:Load(Type)
    ThunderSharp.Managers.CheatManager:LoadAll()
    ThunderSharp.Core:Start()

    <game>Cheat.Cheats.Aimbot.OnEnable () (at <6519823ed8884212beac8be75f30981e>:0)
    UnityEngine.GameObject:AddComponent(Type)
    ThunderSharp.Managers.CheatManager:Load(Type)
    ThunderSharp.Managers.CheatManager:LoadAll()
    ThunderSharp.Core:Start()
     
  2. Tautvydas-Zilys

    Tautvydas-Zilys

    Unity Technologies

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    Not really. As long as code is executing on their machine, they can modify it. You could use DRM software to make it harder for them to do it, but nothing is really fool proof.
     
  3. artiszinbergs

    artiszinbergs

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    Hi Tautvyadas.

    Thanks for your answer. I thought maybe there is a option in-engine to limit this kind of behaviour or to make it harder.

    I will look into alternatives if features like this become more important for my game.

    Thanks
     
  4. Tautvydas-Zilys

    Tautvydas-Zilys

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    That in itself would defeat the purpose of such option because now they only need to figure out how to get around it in one game made in Unity and then they can go around it in all games made in Unity.
     
  5. MadeFromPolygons

    MadeFromPolygons

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    Theres a reason you dont see DRM like starforce etc lumped in with game releases anymore, its because there is always a way around it. If you spend time on this, its just lost time because after all the hours getting DRM etc in, they will still always find a way around if they really want to.

    Look at steam for example, its a good example of a online based DRM style service and made by Valve of all people, but still every day people crack steam games or release cheats for them.

    If you are doing an online service game, you could handle this by making everything run on server and validating stuff there. If its not an online service game / multiplayer, then it does not matter and you should not spend time on it.
     
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  6. Antypodish

    Antypodish

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    And there are always players, which are experiencing various tech issues with DRM.
    So devs not only spending time implementing something with little to no value, but also potentially loosing customers.
     
  7. SparrowGS

    SparrowGS

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    I never understand why some devs are so anti mods on single player games.
    Give me one good reason why I shouldn't be able to mod the game I bought as a customer, how is this improving player experience? (or sales if that's what you care about)
     
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  8. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Does distributing the game as an il2cpp build affect difficulty of hacking it?
     
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  9. Antypodish

    Antypodish

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    I am sure 5-10+ years ago that would be most valid statement. And I agree with it completely.

    But unill considering current trening on monetisation, statistics and achievements which may be public. Assuming this is indeed a case.

    And of course, in case the game is single player, rather multiplayer.
    But even then things should be handled different way.
     
  10. SparrowGS

    SparrowGS

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    I dunno man.. every game I play that has mods and achievements tell me "if you load this save with mods enabled you can't get achievements".

    and you can even play into it and increase the amount of content in your game, if you "sponsor" some player made mods you like.

    f the game the OP made is multiplayer and he's not doing his stuff in a server like @MadeFromPolygons said he should rethink several of his life choices. hehe[/QUOTE]
     
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  11. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Which is infuriating in case of bethesda games because they rely on community support.

    But I'm not sure about the rest of the titles.

    Assuming that being able to mod is something that you're supposed to do as a user feels wrong to me.
     
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  12. SparrowGS

    SparrowGS

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    Let's not get into Bethesda, haha
    It's a love-hate relationship with them as a player.


    I don't think modding should be an inherit right of a player, if the game is not built for modding it's not build for modding, but when you spend resources on anti-modding you're spending resources on limiting my play options, it should go the other way around.
     
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  13. Marc-Saubion

    Marc-Saubion

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    When we think about mods, we tend to reduce it to something silly like making every character have a big head, or replace bow and arrows with blasters. And that's alright when it's just you in front of your PC.


    But for a game studio, it can mean bad publicity when youtubers with million views are displaying an unbalanced gameplay or bugs due to the mods. What if the mod unlock an unfinished canceled feature for example? What if the mod is morally questionable and becomes the scandal of the month? Do you think politicians care that you're not the author?

    There's also creative control and ownership. If you want your sequel to be successful, you need to protect yourself from modders who might make a rip of mod from your ideas. Even if if your development is better in everyway, you can lose sales if people get confused or simply don't want to pay for something they consider having already experienced.

    Not to mention how to handle intellectual property. What happens when your infiltration game gets massively modded to play Batman instead of the main character? If your game is successful, DC's lawyers will demonstrate how your game is basically Batman without the branding and how easy it is to add their intellectually property to your benefit. They don't need to be right to burry you with legal fees and in some case, defending their licence no matter how ridiculous it looks can can be a legal requirement in their country.


    While I agree with you because mods can be fun, the fact is, the world isn't nice enough for us to make mods like we did 20 ago. There is a reason why our industry is being blamed for sexism or violence against all common sense. It's because we're a young industry who isn't used to lawyer up, but we have to and decisions like "no mods" are part of the price to pay to protect us.
     
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  14. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    I'm not aware of a single YouTuber that does this and doesn't admit to what they're doing in the opening of the video, and I watch a lot of content concerning moddable games from major and minor YouTubers. Feel free to provide examples if you know of any but I'm confident they're the exception not the rule.

    You just need to make a sequel that is more than an expansion to the original game.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2021
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  15. adamgolden

    adamgolden

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    "When the news of this hidden mini-game became public knowledge, publisher Take-Two Software was taken to task. The ESRB re-evaluated the game and changed the rating to AO, the most high-profile game ever to receive that rating."
    https://electronics.howstuffworks.com/esrb3.htm
     
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  16. SparrowGS

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    They say "no publicity is bad publicity"(might be a bit different in english, but it exists in nearly all languages(from places where publicity is a thing, lol)), and while I agree it isn't true for literally everything, I think most of that stuff is good, I can't really think of a situation where a video of a mod harms the video game.

    unbalanced gameplay or bugs? simple - don't release an unfinished game.
    there is far too much unfinished games being sold right now without properly being in "early access" (IE - full price, advertisements, etc)

    unfinished canceled feature? if you think people might see it and it could harm the game - remove the code and assets.

    Morally questionable mod? okay, let's do an example
    I make a mod for GTA where everything looks like a concentration camp and you can go around shooting enslaved jews left and right.
    pewdiepie makes a video, no explanation - just gameplay footage.
    now lets say that everyone(rockstar, pewdiepie and the mod creator) is from israel where such a game(in the modded form) is highly illegal(israel has free expression on everything except nazi stuff).

    in this scenario - how is rockstar responsible in any way?
    the politicians can go jack off in court all they want, rockstar are not the authors of the mod(me) or the video(pewdiepie), and that goes double if you have a proper EULA

    I don't see how modding and preventing people from ripping assets from your game is related.
    If someone rips off a mod it's not your idea unless you're doing the sponsored mods i mentioned specified you have creative rights over mods in the EULA.

    If you think your losing sales because of customer confusion your brand with a brand that is in violation of your trademark(if they use your IP that's a different story) you can sue them for that in most countries(USA, Israel, most of EU)

    This is not true, they can go to court with any claim they want, but any court will throw such a claim out and if they pile on you in the manner you said i'm pretty sure that constitutes harassment to some degree.

    When you make you EULA you either say "any changes to the game files blah blah blah" or if you do sponsored mods you can filter them and not just blindly accept any entry or say that mod creators are responsible for any copyright/IP infringement caused by a mod.

    The hot coffee scandal is a bit different to what we're talking about with just 3rd party mods, if they didn't want it in the game they should've removed it.
     
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  17. Marc-Saubion

    Marc-Saubion

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    I don't need examples. I just know that the risk isn't null, that I don't know future trends and that taking it would require a risk vs benefit investigation.

    If you want to do that, you're free to do so. I never said mods should be forbidden but that their are legitimate economic reasons behind the fact that a game studio isn't willing to open their game to it.

    No I don't. That's my point.

    The gameplay, 3D assets, sounds, music, character... are the property of their creators and it is up to them to decide how, when and at what cost they are going to distribute the game.

    If they consider that opening their creative tools to anybody can affect their business in a negative way, they are in their right not to.
     
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  18. Joe-Censored

    Joe-Censored

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    The English version is:
    "There's no such thing as bad publicity" - P.T. Barnum

    Which is now an ironic quote, because bad publicity is exactly what killed 'Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus' in the end (P.T. Barnum being the Barnum in that long name). Bad publicity around circus animal treatment resulted in them removing elephants from their shows in 2016. With no elephants though, came no customers. Their shows ended entirely in 2017, just 1 year later.

    Easier said than done :p

    True, but that does create its own risk. Removal could break some seemingly unrelated feature. For example, the unused assets could have been in some collection your code loops through, and you end up with a null reference error because of the removal. So you'd need a thorough QA of the entire game again if you audit your game for unused asset/code removal.

    Also, an unfinished feature which you intend on eventually finishing, will create extra work to remove the unfinished version and then add again later. For example, starting on a feature which you intend on making available in a post launch DLC 6 months after launch.

    Definitely agree with you on this... mostly. Roblox is full of IP violating content by users, there are endless mods for games even available through Steam directly which violate high profile IP's, and I haven't heard of any problem coming down on the actual creators of the original game for this fan content.

    Though @Marc-Saubion is also not incorrect. The risk is still non-zero, because you can be sued for anything at any time. "but any court will throw such a claim out" - well hopefully, but there are no guarantees in court. For all you know, the guy filing the claim is married to the judge's daughter and you're about to get shafted. But for many people just defending yourself in court from a frivolous case is already too much risk, even if you do win.

    A court defense requires a good lawyer, who requires significant funds up front, with no guarantee the court will award you attorney's fees even when you win. Plus, the case may be filed against you in a far away court. Even if you defend yourself pro se (no lawyer), you may need to travel halfway around the world just to show up for your court date. For someone not actually making much money from their game, and especially if they don't have a high primary income, I can see how any risk can be too much risk.
     
  19. Marc-Saubion

    Marc-Saubion

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    You just described one in the same message.

    And this is why many studios don't want players to be able to tinker with the game. That's my point. We're not talking about the game as it is released but how mods can affect it.

    They're not, but it doesn't matter because being innocent doesn't mean they won't lose money.

    In your scenario, they'll have to spend resources dealing with that issue and this isn't free. Which is why many studios prevent that issue by not allowing mods.

    Or I could avoid that situation in the first place by not opening my product to mods.

    Few years ago, Apple sued some grocery shop in eastern Europe because it had an apple as a logo. And they did it because the USA law forces them to do so in order to show they are actively protecting they brand.

    Yes that's ridiculous and harassments against that shop, but that's the reality we live in.

    Or I could avoid that situation in the first place by not opening my product to mods.

    True but games are made by people and people make mistakes which is why, the more your game is protected from tempering, the better it is.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2021
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  20. bobisgod234

    bobisgod234

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    I really hate it when companies go out of their way to prevent modding, but Marc-Saubion does have a point.

    One of the companies job is to manage risk. They don't care about fault or responsibility - it's all just risk to them. If preventing modding minimizes risk to them, then they potentially do, unfortunately, have a reason to try and block modding.
     
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  21. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Agreed, but that doesn't change my point in any way. If a company creates a low quality product then any negative feedback they receive is their fault not the fault of the modding community.

    I don't agree with this in the slightest. Yes, people do make mistakes, but one of the major advantages of modding is that it allows the community to smooth out the mistakes which means the less moddable a game is the closer to perfect it has to be out of the box.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2021
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  22. Marc-Saubion

    Marc-Saubion

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    That's because you're assuming the product is bad so it fits your narrative.

    Let's say you make a game and inclure a grappling hook feature during development, but it's not tested and the level design wasn't done with it in mind so you decide not to include it.

    Few months later, you release the teaser for the sequel including the new gameplay offered by the grappling hook but people aren't as receptive as you expected. It turns out some modder found the feature in your first game, enabled it and everybody thinks it sucks because it wasn't fun.

    It doesn't matter if your sequel was designed with the grappling hook in mind and that you hired a talented level designer to make the best out of it. Your public is already bored with it because they played it last week and they want to do something else.

    There are good movies that did poorly at the box office because a very similar one was released two weeks before and people were fed or disappointed with the genre. That's why it's important for a game studio not to leave their marketing strategy to modders.

    Yes, but it doesn't mean this will apply to every type of game and, even then, that it won't be at the expense of the studio.
     
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  23. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    I'm not making a baseless assumption here. I have a very extensive game list on Steam and it includes a few games that have had good premises but were poorly implemented with no way for the community to make them better.

    I'm not saying you can't make a good game with no modding support. I'm saying your game had better be a good game if you insist on restricting modding support because you won't have any other legs to stand on if it fails.

    Speaking of which I would argue you're making a great deal of assumptions with most of your argument. Starting with the idea that it would be a source of negative feedback by everyone and including the idea that one feature making itself known will magically kill off an entire sequel.

    Once again if that's what it took to kill off a sequel you didn't have much of a sequel to begin with, and if that's the case a modder revealing your secret feature is the least of your worries. It isn't like there aren't examples of this out there either. If a sequel barely adds anything it will receive negativity for it regardless of any early reveals.

    Meanwhile I'm not aware of a single game that was good and had a good sequel being killed off by an early leak or the exposure of cut content. If anything these have served to hype up the sequels with their audiences.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2021
  24. I agree with you on everything else (well, every publisher has the right to decide if they are supporting modding or not, and we have our right to support those companies or not...).

    But this is BS and have nothing to do with modding. You don't need "more temper protection". People do whatever they want on their own computers.
    You have the EULA, you have your trademarks, all the copyright and everything. They do whatever they want, you can and should go after them when they publish anything with your protected stuff in it.
    You have no business on their computers.

    DRMs are evil and fraud of the century. There are games without zero-day cracks. A handful. Most of them are long gone and irrelevant.
    If you want control, build a "Game as a Service" money grabbing mafia-operation.

    But back to the original subject: Unity does a good job to not to kill any time on a useless service like this. Wouldn't make any sense.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 28, 2021
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  25. ippdev

    ippdev

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    Well. If you have the C# injection code then use it as a weapon. Figure out the initial point/s of egress and bury a trigger function that is unlocked by the intrusion and for example have it just keep filling the screen from an endless loop with jibberish or mocking ..or keeps shutting the game down as soon as it opened...I can think of more malicious approaches but I will leave that to the imagination and knowledge of computers. It isn't DRM..it is a counter punch.
     
  26. Antypodish

    Antypodish

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    I really would like to hear about game cases, where modding did legal harm to them, instead theoritizing and assumptions. Otherwise, is just throwing words in the wind.

    Minecraft technically did not allow for modding from day 0.
    But I never heard about single sue case against, because of modding.
    And surely content created in MC by players, have plenty opportunities to do so.

    Is Skyrim or Witcher have problem with modding?

    I know GTA5 had issues with modding, just because their online services and economy was flowed. There was quite a loud about banning various modders.
    But any legal action because of legality cases? At least I am not aware off.

    WoW technically is none moddable game and only multiplier. But it did not stopeed fanboy communities, to create own servers, popping like mushrooms in own times. Some of them had hundreds of active players each day.

    More legal take down action I hear these days, on asset flips, and made games with them. And games using branded names, titles, violeting range of copy rights. Not because of actually modding.

    Also, YouTube like community could be technically be as bad, as modding. Without actually need for modding. See for example recent CyberPunk2077 videos, popping like mushrooms after rain. They using content made by CDA, to put bad light on them. Do they going to sue spree, on content makers? Or they going try to mitigate issues with a game, to turn the table?

    Still it is free self promoting materials. Unless they were sponsored, as we can hear for some cases.

    Yet again, I am happy to hear about game titles examples, where modding was actually bad for a game. And hoping, is not just minor odd case.

    I am in opinion, many games would love to be moddable. Even AAA studios do not specifically object against it. It is just making something moddable, is very complex, long time required and expensive.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2021
  27. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    In fact it's not just the developers that have approved of it. Bethesda went through a lengthy process of finding ways to get mods onto consoles with the result being both Microsoft and Sony allowing them on their platforms.
     
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  28. EternalAmbiguity

    EternalAmbiguity

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    As others have already said, the "modders will bring your game bad publicity" concern trolling is silly. GTA had an "official" sex minigame leaked, and what was the result? It got patched out, and everyone went on their way. Skyrim has Loverslab, a modding platform with extreme sexual content (things like BDSM and rape) and to my knowledge it's never caught anyone's attention, and if it did it wouldn't affect the performance of the game in the slightest.

    Just say "I want to prevent players from playing my game in any way I didn't intend." We understand.
     
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  29. I think it helped them to gain even more attention, more sales. Every teenager, who didn't want that game before, after this they did. It was actual chatter on the interwebs that who has the original version with The Content in it.
     
  30. andyz

    andyz

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    I was wondering this, I have seen games distributed without an il2cpp build and the C# code is all there to look at frankly.
    With il2cpp I am imagining it is far more hidden away.
     
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  31. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    VRChat.

    Most of user created content is pirated.

    It won't work, because normal unity game can be pretty much decompiled in seconds. If it is a C#-built dlls. They'll simply locate the new entry point.
     
  32. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    I don't disagree, but there's some important context there. The marketing strategy behind GTA has been to deliberately use "inflammatory marketing". As is briefly described here, Max Clifford...
    The only people who know for sure whether "Hot Coffee" was deliberate or not are Rockstar themselves, but either way it's certainly on brand.

    Similar deal with Skyrim. The Elder Scrolls games are deliberately presented as sandboxes where you can do what you want, to the point that most players accept that the games clearly present flexibility over polish. Modding is very on brand with that.
     
  33. EternalAmbiguity

    EternalAmbiguity

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    Fair point on GTA. I'm less convinced for Skyrim, due to the extreme nature of the content (literally rape minigames - I can't be the only one who remembers the Rapelay scandal), but point taken.

    I just logged in to NexusMods and looked at the "Popular - All Time" category for every non-Bethesda game on the front page (Witcher 3, Monster Hunter World, Dragon Age, Dark Souls, Stardew Valley, etc.). Some had nude mods on the first page - all had nude mods within the first 10 pages.
     
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  34. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Oh, I agree that there will be off-brand mods. I just mean that on the whole the ability to mod seems like a good fit for Elder Scrolls.
     
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  35. Kirsche

    Kirsche

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    That would essentially kill off your modding community but not significantly affect cheat makers.

    That's one of the reasons why Rust still ships mono server builds (Rust takes a server sided modding approach) but forces IL2CPP for clients.

    Are there less cheaters in Rust now? Not really, but as I understand it they also wanted to make it more difficult for people to find exploits in their source code.
     
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  36. alexzzzz

    alexzzzz

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    Just let your players have their fun. If someone wants to cheat, it means it's more fun for them this way.
     
  37. Marc-Saubion

    Marc-Saubion

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    This is not an idea, this is a documented phenomenon you can find in every industry. It doesn't matter if you make cars, movies, sports events... the fact is, there are some good products that were commercial failures because they were launched at the wrong place or the wrong time. People learned their lesson and that's why business practices evolve.

    Now, if you think videos games are going to be an exception because you're "not aware" of this happening, feel free to risk your own money on this idea. I never said, modding should be banned, I just gave good reasons why some people chose to make their game non moddable.
     
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  38. Baste

    Baste

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    If it's a single-player game, let people do whatever. We store our save files in cleartext. If a player wants to have int.maxValue hitpoints, they can. Go wild.

    If they want to inject code in there, whatever. Feel free. The speedrunning community is already doing that in order to do on-screen velocity readouts and whatnot.

    The made-up scenario where you get a bunch of bad press because somebody gets a bunch of views on a video of your game, but modded to be S***, where they pass it off as not modded, is so bizzare. I can't even begin to understand where it comes from. Are you also worried that your lead artist will be randomly mauled by a passing flock of badgers?


    Now, if it's a multiplayer shooter, then may god have mercy on your soul. You'll have to do stuff to prevent cheating, but well, Riot looked at the landscape and said "you know what? The only way to have effective anti-cheat is to install rootkits on our player's computers". Not only is that the worst thing to do to your consumers, it also didn't completely work.

    So like the wealthiest company had to put in DRM that's invasive to the point of parody and it didn't work. You're not going to be able to do much as a small team running a third-party tech stack.

    I don't think it's viable to make a multiplayer shooter without getting cheaters.
     
  39. Marc-Saubion

    Marc-Saubion

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    I agree but these are two distinct matters. You can have a moddable game full of DRMs and vice versa.
     
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  40. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Some links with proofs would be nice.

    There's small matter of leaderboards and achievements.

    For example, if you beat a racing track in a racing game and have your score uploaded to online leaderboard only to see that the world record to beat the track is 3 milliseconds.... that will not create a positive impression.
     
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  41. MadeFromPolygons

    MadeFromPolygons

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    Wait, you mean I am the only one who worries about flocks of badgers mauling my artists?
     
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  42. Marc-Saubion

    Marc-Saubion

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    That's because you focus on commercial successes like Skyrim and not take into consideration their sandbox nature. Mods being good for one game don't mean it would be a good choice to every game.

    You also need to take into account that companies like Rockstar or Bethesda have people working on making sure modding will boost their revenues. They have decades of experience and community building to know what works for them and can afford to make mistakes. If you're a more confidential studio with limited budget, this might not be worth the investment.

    I'm not saying it's not possible to make it work but that's it's not just a matter of adding moddability to a game to make it better. It's a feature like everything else, it has a cost vs benefit balance you need to analyse. Otherwise, we wouldn't even have that conversation.

    You won't because there is a selection bias and games that suffer from a poor feature choice are also poorly designed in general.

    Some people mentioned here the GTA sexgame leak incident. It worked out for Rockstar because the scandal fitted the provocating nature of the game but if the opposite happened, they could have join the pile of forgotten games / studios.
     
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  43. EternalAmbiguity

    EternalAmbiguity

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    Unfortunately common, however. I played Forza Horizon 3 and the leaderboards for various stunts were filled with obviously hacked scores.

    ...which goes back to the point of if even Microsoft can't block cheaters with their fancypants UWP games, what makes indies so doggone determined to?
     
  44. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    They don't.

    Rockstar does not support modding. Actually they shut it down at any given opportunity, because their games at the moment are centered around microtransactions and online gameplay, and modders reduce incentive to pay (plus ruin experience of others)

    Bethesda barely supports modding and while they try to monetize it, support is not that great. Mods frequently rely on 3rd party tools.
     
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  45. Marc-Saubion

    Marc-Saubion

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    You're not wrong but games aren't 100% standalone like they used to be. Even on a solo offline game, you can include analytic tools in order to have data that you'll use for updating the game and make better lever design. Leaving the door open like you do would invalidate your results.

    It doesn't mean your choice is wrong, but you can't deny that it's a tradeoff between the player's freedom and an opportunity to make better games. That's why not everybody is going to work the same way.
     
  46. Marc-Saubion

    Marc-Saubion

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    Not officially, but I remember editing cars with the notepad when I was playing San Andreas and if this practice is still around, it's because they want to.
     
  47. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    A lack of understanding of the underlying concepts.

    Most people understand enough about the physical world to know that 100% physical security isn't actually possible. Enough people with enough time and equipment can break into anything.

    But most people aren't well versed in computer science to apply the same reasoning there. Even many developers only understand one or two layers past where they do their work.

    No, it really doesn't. The number of people who use mods or hack their games is tiny compared to the overall audience. Mods won't impact all of your data points, and there are ways to filter data.

    The idea of someone deliberately modding to send dodgy data is pretty far fetched. It's a lot of effort, and it'll either barely impact your averages or make obvious outlier data points, and it'd be far easier to just block the software with your firewall, so... why?

    Which brings me to, we already need to design analytics usage to deal with other forms of interference which probably have far higher impacts (such as not being able to reliably associate installs or sessions with users).
     
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  48. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    No, it really isn't. If data is on my PC then I can modify it. End of story.

    They can take steps to make it harder, but they can't make it impossible. It is a fundamental aspect of how computers and data work.

    If I have a game on my PC which draws a model of a car then it must include the data of the car and all code instructions necessary to interpret it. That means a curious person has access to it, and while that can be made inconvenient it can't be made impossible.

    Most DRM is cracked within days of release, if not before. This is no different.
     
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  49. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Nope, it is because it was convenient for them to store car data as text files. As programmers are humans, and butchering binary data dump takes more time.

    GTA games are made without any modding in mind. They didn't take an extra step to prevent modification in game files, but that's pretty much it. The games are as modding-unfriendly as it gets. The data is optimized for the target platform and isn't really meant to be tampered with.

    If you want a mod-friendly game, you can check out Ark, Conan Exiles, or, heck, even VRChat. Those provide SDKs for users where people can make their own stuff.
     
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  50. Marc-Saubion

    Marc-Saubion

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    The idea of someone deliberately modding to send dodgy data is pretty far fetched because you made it up. It doesn't matter. If a player is sending data from "a different game", the result is the same.

    And it's not up to you to decide whether that data is impacted or not by modders. It's literally none of your business but someone else's. They're the only one qualified to make the decision about their game and the only one taking the risk.

    That's why we don't get to juge how a game's modd-friendliness is a good thing or not. We don't know.

    Once again, I never said you can make data edit impossible.

    I'm just pointing at the fact that they could easily prevent it but chose not to. Game developers may not be able to prevent you from modifying files on your computer but they're still deciding how easy it's going to be.

    Not being mod-friendly doesn't mean it's not left accessible on purpose.

    We're talking about a game grossing billions. If they wanted to hide that data from users, they wouldn't make it that convenient.