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So, Nanite

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Win3xploder, May 13, 2020.

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  1. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    ... Do you want me to pretend the issue does not exist, so nobody will ever try to address it and the GI will never improve past this point?

    And, yes, all tech is optional. Games have been working for years without Gi, with smoke and mirrors. You can get similar effect using alternative means. For example, with that glowing cube you could slap a point light into it and it will look largely the same.

    It is not. It is another tool with edge cases.

    ... what is wrong with you?

    All I did was posting screenshots and quote from docs. "Character does not light up the environment", "global changes take seconds", "so there are those limitations".

    In response I got people trying to DEFEND lumen, which is ridiculous. "But you can work around", I can work around not having lumen too, what kind of argument is that? The issue I pointed out still exists, whether you can work around it or not.

    Also nobody really bothered to download unreal engine see if I accidentally misconfigured emissive material and glowing character is actually a supported scenario. The quote about SVOGI / RTX GI went unnoticed.

    And yeah, thank you for reminding me why you are on my ignore list.

    P.S. I miss GarBenjamin. And the state of the forum around that time.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2022
  2. Max-om

    Max-om

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    That lumen has it faults doesn't take away that it's a million times better than what Unity have.

    If you say otherwise then you just haven't tried to make a actual game (Past prototype size) with GI in unity.
     
  3. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

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    It is supported btw, it was one of the first things I tried when I was first playing with Unreal 5, not sure what you might be doing wrong.
     
  4. Max-om

    Max-om

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    If anything emissive materials are not working correctly in unity. It doesn't contribute nearly enough when doing baked GI
     
  5. BIGTIMEMASTER

    BIGTIMEMASTER

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    You think lumen wont be improved unless you played with it for five minutes and made a post on the unity forums?


    People are not defending lumen. It is a tool that we will either use or not. What people care about is truth. You are spreading misinformation and spoiling perfectly good discussions with what amounts to misinformation.

    The "flaw" you are pointing to is a non-issue for probably every person except for you, and even for you it is quite clear you just opened the engine to find some issue to continue your weird crusade with. (and it is questionable that this is even a flaw, or more likely that you just didn't put in prereq time to actually learn how to use the tool, as you've done in the past with other things like PHATs and the animation retargeting system)

    Let's suppose that an emissive decal on my sci-fi characters chest not illuminating wall is somehow a big deal though. The workaround is so simple its not even worth discussing. It's like a 1 second reflex that anybody will immediately recognize, even if they know nothing about making games.

    You actually cannot work around not having lumen. You can make games without lumen like all games so far have been, but you cannot solve the same problems that the tool solves any other way. Am I wrong? Show us what you know that the graphics engineers at epic, and apparently everybody else, does not know.

    If you had made some games that fall under the tools use case, you'd know that there is no workaround. Similar, if you had made any large, open world games, you would know that the workarounds you have to do in unity are extreme, compared to other engines. But you don't know any of that, yet this doesn't stop you from hijacking every thread about these issues and insinuating that other developers just ought to "git gudder", essentially. All you are doing almost every time is making speculations based on hunches.

    It is you who needs to git gudder. Everybody else here is ten steps ahead of you. You are dragging the team behind. If you stop focusing on inconsequential details and start making the actual difficult decisions that are required to get a game out the door, you'll begin to realize how useless and sometimes actively anti-productive so many of your ideas are.

    The fact that you keep bringing up ideas like "defending X tool" and "a tools honor" indicates your own strange outlook, which I don't think anybody else shares even closely.

    Do you feel that the corporation of unity is harmed by ten of its users discussing unreal sometimes on its forums, and that you have to put on your armor and go defend it? Do you feel that game developers are being led astray by bad information, that will make it harder to finish their games? Do you think anybody who sees benefit from using nanite or lumen in their project would be better off making workarounds in unity? If so, you ought to teach us how. Not five minute toy around sessions. No speculations based on work you haven't done. But actually prove what workarounds can be done because you have done them, or at the minimum somebody else has shown what can be done.


    edit: Why do you ignore me? Because I challenge your ideas? Do you usually ignore challenges? Do you think that if you proved me wrong on something that I wouldn't accept it?

    I am sure forums were nice during the heyday of the indie apocalypse or whenever, when there was tons more people full of optimism and hope... but most people tried and eventually either burned out, or moved on to something else, etc. My big concern is burn out, which seems to be the number one problem most developers like us will face. And number one cause of burnout, IME, would be not using correct tools for the job, or having an incorrect strategy of trying to solve too many different problems manually instead of leveraging every advantage possible.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2022
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  6. Andy-Touch

    Andy-Touch

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    Now that Epic have Fortnite live shipped with Lumen as a recommended option; they have some actual skin in it being fixed and improved imminently. I fully expect Lumen (and Nanite) to be iterated on as a focus due to the reliance on it being experienced with Fornite by millions and millions of people. Its ultimately their main marketing piece for Unreal Engine 5.

    What direct reliance does Unity have on its Lighting workflows to be improved any time soon?
     
  7. Max-om

    Max-om

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    I really think unity need to make bigger stuff than small tech demos. They would pretty quickly understand that their workflow is pain. I wonder if that's why they shutdown that game project they had, they didn't like the feedback :)
     
  8. AcidArrow

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    Without the direct reliance it doesn't matter, I'm pretty sure employees have awareness of a lot of issues, but it doesn't matter if management isn't interested.

    I don't think they shutdown the game project because they didn't like the feedback, it was because they weren't going to act on the feedback either way.
     
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  9. neginfinity

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    Most likely scenario is that Unity won't be improving lighting workflow any time soon. There will be messing with DOTS, and likely the engines will divide markets with Unity more suitable for mobile and low power devices, but also for experimental titles. As Unity has way higher flexibility.

    Something similar to Lumen might surface as a 3rd party addon. Actually community could have a stab at it as well and develop a free opensource 3rd party package. I mean, at some point we had UMA.

    But I guess hell is more likely to freeze over.
     
  10. Murgilod

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    Given how well improving lighting workflows since they first tried lying about Enlighten? I'm going to go with "none."
     
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  11. blueivy

    blueivy

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    Unity has pretty much thrown in the towel on real time GI for 3rd party asset developers to handle, which I can live with. It’s more nanite and the lack of a metahuman like avatar creation that I wish Unity would compete with, and would take a lot of resources for one 3rd party developer to do on their own.
     
  12. Andy-Touch

    Andy-Touch

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    I can assure you the feedback we gave coming from the development of Gigaya was direct and honest. ;)
    At one point I had a script with a swear word in the class name to try and highlight to R&D the absurdity for the workaround we had to use to implement a core feature because an API was not public.
     
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  14. Murgilod

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    And we've all heard this story before. That's the problem. Every time Unity announces something like this, it either never materializes, materializes but is broken and then deprecated within a year, or materializes 5 years after it was likely to come out.
     
  15. Andy-Touch

    Andy-Touch

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    Enlighten is apparently deprecated (again) in 2023 so lets hope it ships before then. :)
     
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  16. Deleted User

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    Meanwhile, can't we look at rtxgi as a viable options? Recently, i guess unity has added support for next gen consoles..
     
  17. imblue4d

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    In the roadmap link:
    This is similar to Enlighten in the way that it uses baked data from static surfaces, this means that dynamic objects won't contribute to GI

    It's definitely nice to have another option, would be useful for lower end machines especially (most of gamers have GTX 1650 s to RTX 3060 s)
    But after the huge improvements introduced with HDRP, remains a hole left for a dynamic GI solution

    RTXGI like VXGI suffer from distance limit, and light leaking, there are some other techniques, but by far the most good to me is the one based on "surfels" from EA https://www.ea.com/seed/news/siggraph21-global-illumination-surfels
     
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  18. AcidArrow

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    An employee showed this a while back on Twitter (I hope sharing this here is fine):

    https://twitter.com/raroni86/status/1535160052369215490

    It looks cool.

    Although I'm guessing we'll probably never see it in Unity. The roadmap stuff mention a lightprobe based precompute solution, and this isn't light probe based and I doubt Unity will come out with 2 precompute solutions plus Rasmus is probably making it for fun?
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2022
  19. Murgilod

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  20. GimmyDev

    GimmyDev

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    Man, why did neginfinity waste everyone time in this thread? Moving goal and hair splitting on problem no one has, pretending nobody care about issues every graphics Twitter nerd are talking about endlessly, and starting semantic debate that instead of enlighting and clarifying is just a massive ego stroking, then turn around and accuse people of starting the semantic.

    Please touch grass, big time master, thanks for being practical and level headed.

    I regret the time reading these post.
     
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  21. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    I guess I'm supposed to never post a GI screenshot ever again? Sheesh.
     
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  22. impheris

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    hahaha you do you, opinion is important, your screenshots were informative, at least to me
     
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  23. LeonhardP

    LeonhardP

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    This thread has run its course.
     
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