Sexism in the Spotlight

hypersexualization =/= sexist. Just because something is a turn off for women doesn't mean it's degradating to the female condition.

Bloviated, curious word to find used in the morning.

 

I don't know, I'm probably drifting off topic but sexism in games is all over the internet lately and I've certainly heard the extreme viewpoint of both sides (and the extremes are what everyone's up in arms against).

Pertaining to the review, I don't see a problem with it. Somebody was paid to provide an opinion on a video game, and they did so. People can agree with it or not.

Hmmm...I was going to go play some R-Type, but your avatar put me in the mood for Super Metroid.

Cheers.

 

“It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so F***ing what."

- Stephen Fry

 

Maybe, maybe not. Personally I lean towards believing the people who say that they feel degraded by something rather than assuming they are liars and trusting that random internet dudes know better. All of that is also largely irrelevant in this case. This is a male reviewer saying he found all the ridiculous sex distasteful, which is a perfectly reasonable opinion to have, and a bunch of angry "true gamers" demanding his resignation for daring to not give the game a perfect score, and demanding that feminists not be allowed to review games at all, which is not particularly reasonable.

 

A peculiar stance for a moderator of a forum. Isn't it in your job description to shut down overly offensive threads?

 

I've never been a fan of popular opinions trying to influence art forms, and that is the bigger issue to me there since stuff like this can gain an unreasonable amount of traction instilling a certain sense in artists (or their publisher) of any art that they "can't do that" and have to censor it. In fact I'm already sick of the whole sanitized "try to please as many people as possible" thing that I think has been going on for a few years, and this whole stuff about sexuality is just the latest victim. Movies and many games that are like that bore me by playing it too safe and censor their own potential. No doubt a lot of you can empathize on that point, seeing how being different kicked off the first indie wave. I myself often wish to be back in the 80s and 90s again where anything could happen in your movie or game. In those times things had a lot more personality, and while I wouldn't say it was uninhibited I do feel things were a lot more free and less oppressive then than they are now on sensitive topics like violence, racism and sexuality. It seems to me like we are moving backwards in some ways, not forward, like as if we are supposed to act as supplementary parents. As for this particular "issue", I take no issue with the fact of sexualization at all and don't quiet see why anyone should since it is such a big part of everyday life. As such I enjoy the female body and I appreciate seeing it in media, why not? Male body parts can be seen in a lot of media too for that matter if you are so inclined. And guess what in sex scenes both are naked and show their best. What's the problem really? Their very existence? But the "exposure" to sex in our culture shouldn't turn any rational human being into a sexist pig either, at least not beyond the certain base level inherited by human instinct. It's like with violent games and those that tried to claim in the past how that turns you into a mass murderer, with the difference that most of us knew that was nonsense while on the topic of sexuality we let ourselves be made unsure where we stood firm before. As a European I thought we already achieved feminism, that we are fine and open minded with sexuality and that we treat each other equally independent of the gender, at least in so far that person deserves respect since the very fact of womanhood is not an assurance that it is a kind or good person. I know I and the people in my surroundings that I interact with do start off equal. But with all this, I do see a lot of anxiety bleed over making up an issue that didn't exist for us before. But anyway, if you are a degenerate in any way and fail to treat your fellow human beings equally just because of gender then that is a flaw that I would attribute to the character of that person resulting of parenting, childhood traumas and the circumstances of social conduct during childhood, but not necessarily the art forms available in your countries culture. It is certainly not the job of media / art to raise children or make it easier on parents. Parenthood is where things like this now really need to be addressed towards, since only they have the power to provide a favorable environment to their child and teach them how to be a good person. Media and Art meanwhile is supposed to be nothing more but a diversion for the mind, a break from reality to ponder over and most certainly is not a substitute to draw values of social conduct from. In the end I certainly will not let any art in whatever form that I create be stifled by popular opinions or taboos like that and if our future looks really to be as puritan as many want it to be I will certainly have some hearty laugh when a little erotica suddenly is all avant-garde again...

 

It blows my mind that you guys can manage to feel victimized and oppressed and censored by perfect scores across the board except for one guy who said it was really good but a little juvenile. You should be thanking your lucky stars that you've never had to deal with actual oppression or lived in a place where art is actually censored.

 

I don't think anyone here is saying they are feeling oppressed over this score. Might have to go to twitter for that.
The problem I have is that https://www.christcenteredgamer.com/ is more honest in it's ideological bias than Polygon.com and company.

And really, the idea of a grown man letting a little mild, well done, animated erotica ruin his fun is hilarious. Especially when that man maintains a subscription at Suicide Girls. I mean c'mon. Maybe he just has a problem with Japanese women expressing their sexuality in art.

 

For me it isn't a matter of feeling 'victimized' and 'oppressed', for me it is a matter of people complaining just because they have the ability to. In the end it boils down to, people who are 'offended' by a game, should really just not buy it, and move on with their lives, nothing that they say or do without reasonable backing will achieve anything

If you are part of the greater majority that are offended by it, then the devs won't get the sales and will have to rethink their strategies. Before anyone says that this game's sales were terrible, I think it is due to it being an exclusive to Wii Um which is, lets face it, not too crash hot.

If you don't like the art of a game you aren't going to to come straight out and say it(oh wait, the internet). If you don't like the looks of a game, don't buy it, if you don't like the mechanics of the game, don't buy it, if you don't like the themes of a game, don't buy it. Simple as that.

 

It's not just about a single review though, if it were only that it would truly not be worth talking about. No, this is about a rapidly growing resentment against sexuality in art and particularly games by a growing number of people that try to tell developers and artists what they should be doing because they feel it shapes society and is the root of a supposed gender inequality (in America?) when it in my opinion does not do that, as I wrote in my previous post.

 

Knowing whether something is going to offend you or not is good, especially if it costs you $60 to find out. However whether something is offensive or not is subjective, so a variety of viewpoints are necessary. I don't object to a third wave feminism point of view in game reviews, it will be valuable to some people! Third wave feminism sites should be unashamed and proud of the ideology they represent and the people they serve. They also need to respect other points of view.

 

This is the most important part, not true for all unfortunately, but that works with anyone in this world

 

But this guy is a REVIEWER. It is his job to tell people his opinion on games. It makes no sense to say that reviewers should just not write negative things about parts of games they don't like. All you would end up with is meaningless all-positive reviews where every game gets a 10/10.

 

Good luck on that.

 

Yeah, but all the apocalyptic portents of this alleged evil feminist destruction of sex are things like "one guy from one website only gave a 'very good' score to a game I like". I mean seriously, if the best we worldwide conspirators can do to you guys in our evil plan to destroy sex is to get one game reviewer to say "eh, it's pretty good but not great" about a game, then we are pretty S***ty evil overlords and you should stop worrying about us so much.

 

If that were true then you would not have responded. Trapped again in your sexist fantasy by your own words.

 

Funny how Polygon gave Bayonetta 2 just 7.5 for being overly sexualized.
Yet the overly violent and sometimes misogynist GTA5, where you can treat women like S*** and they're actually portrayed as whores, managed to get a 9,5.

Double standards at it's best I would say.

 

See Hillary Clinton and Condoleeza Rice for reference points for S***ty evil overlords..and might I add proof that what feminazi's say about women being in charge is bogified to the max.

 

A gaming site giving a very good but not perfect score to Bayonetta 2 does not magically turn it into a "third wave feminist" site. And as for respecting other points of view, let's remember, the "feminist" in this story is one guy who gets paid to give his opinion on games giving his opinion on a game, and the other is a group of guys demanding his resignation and a takedown of the site he writes for. The "feminist" is not the one disrespecting views here.

 

True. Completely true. But he doesn't exactly review it for what it is actually designed to be, in a sense it has been designed to be errotica, it is widely known for having that aspect, it is part (I would assume) of the developers standpoint. He knew EXACTLY the type of game he was reviewing.

For a somewhat of an analogy. You don't go into Starbucks, buy a Coffee and then complain that you got Coffee.

 

We don't know that the other group is all guys. Bayonetta is VERY popular with young women. Given the nature of review sites and perpetually high 'scores' (hate those things) a 7.5 for art is a pretty big ding, especially when it's based purely on ideology. Especially when this is all taken into account with his public porn consumption habits (really how dumb can he be?), it just seems hypocritical. Controversial opinion + hypocrisy = internet outrage.

Given how popular Bayonetta is I am not surprised with the anger. Is it misplaced? sure. Really the answer for the people angry at the situation is to just walk away. The way these sites are structured, the more outrage they generate the more money they make.

 

But his complaint was not just that the game had erotica in it. He probably could have guessed that from the word "Bayonetta" in the title. I don't want to quote the entire review, but his main complaint was that her outfits and lines were so juvenile and over-the-top that it detracted from what could have been a good game. That's a valid complaint even if you know that there's going to be juvenile sex fantasies from the beginning. To me, it's more like going to Starbucks and saying that the coffee is good but the triple mocha frappucino with double whipped cream is such a ridiculous amount of sugar that it drowns out the coffee and is actually kinda gross.

 

It is possible for people to like sex and porn but still think that Bayonetta is juvenile and annoying. Liking sex does not mean you have to automatically like every portrayal of sex in the world.

 

Sure, with enough mental gymnastics I am sure that it all makes sense and can be rationalized away. I think the most likely and obvious answer is the review was straight up trolling for traffic.

 

Really? You can't imagine a person who likes sex but doesn't like Bayonetta?

 

Liking sex, but not liking Bayonetta is not an accurate description of the situation.

Having a subscription to suicide girls, where social media networking mechanics are used to select girls into the site so they can get paid for their shoot is just 'liking sex' ok. Well I guess 'liking' is technically the term as that's exactly what the Polygon reviewer is doing over on Suicide Girls. Seriously you do know how that site works right?That's an interesting simplification of the situation to say the least.

Giving Bayonetta a rating knock because of some mild erotica from another culture is found to be 'sexist' but voting for women on a porn site in the hopes they they will get paid is all good??? I mean seriously the mental gymnastics required to justify this behavior is just insane.

He was trolling with that review. He was trying to drum up controversy and attention for his site and he succeeded.

 

The problem is that he then tries to uphold an ideology that he clearly doesn't believe in. Sure, he is allow to knock on the game for the juvenile and annoying errotica. However, attaching it to an ideology and preaching something you don't believe is not reasonable.

Now you may say that he is just stating the obvious, but he ties it all in with his 'ideology' that he himself apparently doesn't uphold.

Might just be me, but I think the majority of the review had nothing to do with actual gameplay. In my opinion, (Which is not always correct) he is preaching.

 

It doesn't really matter how much porn someone watches; it is still possible to think Bayonetta is a stupid game. And this guy doesn't even think it's a stupid game: he thinks it's a really good game with a few problems. The fact that you literally can't imagine anyone not thinking it's perfect and assume that the reviewer must lying and actually loving the game is ridiculous. Trust me, it is 100% possible to like looking at naked people but still think that killing people with your magical naked boob powers is incredibly dumb.

 

The funny thing is, I don't like the game.

It boils back to the question as to if it is really that sexist....

 

Everything is an "ideology". Saying that something is sexist doesn't automatically cause you to join up with the single universal feminist ideology brigade. There's not a bible or anything. You can have any sort of belief system you want and still think that something is sexist. In fact, you can see in this thread that a bunch of different people are calling the exact opposite things sexist, and we clearly don't have the same ideology.

You don't lose your feminist card if you look at a naked photo. You can even watch porn (gasp!) and still be a feminist. Hell, you can be a random dude who knows nothing about anything but says that Bayonetta looks silly and you'll probably be branded a feminist by someone. It's not a singular set of rules; there's no feminist bible; everyone interprets it differently, and saying that men are not allowed to ever side with women if they've looked at porn is creating a useless divide.

When you disagree with someone, they're preaching, when you agree, they're telling the truth. Aside from that, even if he is "preaching" and is literally part of an evil feminist cult like nutjobs like ippdev believe, he's still entitled to do that, especially since he is supposed to be honest about how he feels about the game. If you're a reviewer and you think a game is crap, then preach on brother! I would much rather that then have a bunch of reviewers who are only allowed to say positive things.

 

If by "that sexist" you mean "sexist enough that one person out of twenty might call it a little sexist but still really good" then yes. Again, not black and white. He is not saying "This game is sexist, it must be destroyed". He's saying he really likes it, but that some of the crotch shots and magic naked attacks are just too much.

 

It's not just looking, the site is literally women and photographers pandering for votes from the membership so they get paid for the photo shoots they do. I really don't believe this guy was genuinely offended by Bayonetta.

Would you rather read reviews from a feminist that walks the talk? or is the talk good enough for you?

Oh I can believe someone not liking it. I just don't believe Polygon, they gave it a 7.5 purely to create controversy and drive traffic to their site.

 

If the guy had given it a zero out of ten and said it was so sexist that it shouldn't exist and demanded that the entire development team behind it get fired immediately, then I'd agree that he's being overzealous. But he's not. He's saying that it's kinda sexist sometimes and it bugs him but not that much. By contrast, the angry "true gamers" that are turning this into a controversy are saying his whole review is so biased and controlled by the evil feminists that it needs to be revoked immediately, and it's they who are demanding that he and his coworkers get fired.

 

I'm going to have to break rule one of the internet right here, your argument is very valid, I agree with so much of it, but there are some aspects I just can't, such as the sexist bit, he is relating a major part of the game to that of the issue of sexism. You are taking what I am saying to an extreme, I am not stating that he is saying 'the game must be destroyed', nor am I arguing that people 'enjoying themselves with erotica are sexist' necessarily.

You are partly putting words in my mouth, I did not say anything that would imply that he "is literally part of an evil feminist cult like nutjobs", nor am I branding anyone as a feminist. I have not mentioned feminism at all.

 

I'd like to have a lot of different reviewers with different points of view.

The fact that you guys see an almost-perfect score as a "controversy" is your own fault. No sane person actually cares enough to crusade about how unfair it is that somebody doesn't think this one particular game is the most perfect game evar. You are the one driving angry anti-feminists to click madly on the site and rage about it. I'm pretty sure the actual cult of evil feminist masterminds thinks y'all are crazy.

 

A 7.5 in gaming is like it's not that good.

 

I didn't mean to imply that you believed in the feminist cult; I was talking about others in the thread, like ippdev.

And I think since the entire point of Bayonetta is sexual objectification, that it is pretty reasonable to bring that up in a review. The game is 95% staring at a stripper dancing around and shooting sex guns and boob magic at things; anyone who ignores that and just talks about how the combo attacks flow smoothly is being dishonest. If you review Bayonetta, you have to talk about the sexualization, and if you think that it's sexist, then you should say so.

 

makeshift, you've basically turned this thread into a Q&A format where you have to answer almost every post. It's probably time to let others have a say. I'm not saying you're right or wrong, only that there's room for other opinions too. As for my quote, it's not actually rude, but insightful - doubly so if you found it offensive

 

Polygon is playing the market. It's actually a very impressive level of trolling, they are tapping into an existing level of rage and playing it perfectly.

Same, I prefer video content though where I can see the game in a better state. It's really hard to just trust one persons opinion on these things. That Shadows of Mordor garbage really muddied the waters.

 

It's not my fault I'm so popular.

But ok, I will shut up. I need to go check in with the Shadow Matriarch anyway and let her know that our plans to infiltrate the government by posting mediocre Bayonetta 2 reviews is progressing splendidly.

 

My views:

Anyone that has ever paid any attention to Polygon should know better by now. They are extremely critical, have always been. They tend to always lowball scores. Look at Alien Isolation. Most sites scored that game between 9 and 8 out of 10, but polygon gave it a draconian 6.5. Hyrule Warriors, a game that got some positive (not stellar but very positive) reviews was massacred with a 5.5 by Polygon. And that's just me pulling out the most recent titles I can think off.

For years fans that disagree with the low scores have accused them of just baiting Metacritic, because fans tend to go for the lowest scores to vent in the sites that score the games low (something I find a bit tin-foil-ish.)

The right way to look at Polygon is as the Video Game Snob of the game industry. They tend to like what others don't like very much, and shrug at critically acclaimed games, and honestly? That is perfectly valid.

It is easy, given recent events, that someone that has never visited the site will think they are just pandering, but the truth is, that is just how they have always reviewed games.

Now, the game itself: Is Bayonetta sexists? All I can say is I own the first one, I enjoyed it and preordered the second one, but I would not dare play it in front of a female that is not old enough to drink. Its not just the blood and gore, but also the constant titillation. It is an adult oriented game, and that is perfectly fine.

However, a reviewer decides to touch on sexism, it is a valid thing to bring up, if he honestly feels that way. I can certainly see a father (I don't know if that reviewer has children) very objectively knocking a few points away due to gratuitous T&A shots that don't add to the game (honestly, I never thought they added much to the first game either, still was a fun game.)

For a full honest list of the reviews for the game (that banner in the OP seems to do some cherry picking) go directly to Metacritic and check their list. Its not a spoiler that Polygon is indeed one of the lowest scores, but its not an universally A+ rated game, but again, not a shocker, that's just Polygon for you.
http://www.metacritic.com/game/wii-u/bayonetta-2/critic-reviews

To be honest, I am more curios about how on earth the game scored so many 10/10. I preordered my copy, so I'll know soon enough if the game indeed is SO much better than the previous one, but the previous one was a game I would never score over 8.5 myself, and that would be a generous score based on the nostalgia combined with all the Easter eggs it have (loved the Space Harrier level.)

What I am actually concerned about are the high scores. Low scores tend to mean an overzealous reviewer. Perfect scores can mean they are trying to keep a sponsor happy and THAT is something that would concern me.

Of course, the game may indeed be one of the most perfectly designed games in the world. is possible but I am very skeptical. I'll find out by the end of the month.

 

I think Bayonetta's animation controller is amazing and have spent plenty of time in game trying to figure it out. But I'm perturbed that I even have to justify myself by saying so. What if I hadn't played the game? Alongside being called a puritan, an imperialist, and a radical ideologue, I can't help but think, ad hominem tu quoque!

It's downright bizarre, then, after making the argument racial, that it veers into the religious. Thinking that the game is sexist makes me, in addition to all the names above, a witch hunter??

This is a generalization. Erotica can be these things, but it can be and often is exploitative and misleading. How does Bayonetta encourage the exploration and celebration of human sexuality? Bayonetta's sexuality is pretty far removed from the real deal, and as an idealization it perpetuates the idea that feminine power comes from sex appeal.

If Bayonetta is foremost defined by her sexuality, then the character doesn't "own it." Those who find it erotic do. Players literally control Bayonetta; combat is an interactive striptease. And as a sex object, her body becomes something the creators use to sell the game. That is indeed brazen.

Do you mean that if something produces "resistance and hate," that justifies it as challenging art? Hate is an awfully strong term to use for a point of view, anyway. Who is hating here?

I'm perplexed by this. What is "genuine" and "real" about Bayonetta?

An appeal to celebrity is the attempt to use someone's respect and admiration to justify that person's point of view (in this case, her work). I am pointing out that this is the fallacy you are using, and I believe I have identified it correctly.

Why would I insist her hair be neon? I'm not sure what you mean. I'm not even criticizing her; I'm criticizing Bayonetta. That's an important difference.

Do you feel like role models are beyond reproach? It's a pity you feel my criticism amounts to nothing more than "excuses to knock [the creator's] work down." I hope you will at least acknowledge the possibility that it's because I feel the game's treatment of sex merits criticism.

Is Japan "submitting" to a more equitable treatment of gender equivalent to being nuked? This is a false dichotomy. The hysterics here are anecdotal fallacy, and the parting remark is a loaded question.

Since all of my criticisms of Bayonetta are by definition imperialist, does that I mean I have to wait until "the American empire is done" for any to be valid?

I'm not rejecting Bayonetta. I'm discussing issues with it that I think are important. I assume sexism is important to other gamers too, even those who are not "western elites."

Absolutely! Yes!

Pointing out failings is part of criticism, and my value system includes advocating autonomous power for women. If we agree that this is a worthy goal in the "GLOBAL" sense, as you say, can we put away the "imperialist" scare label?

That sounds interesting. Is it relevant to this topic? If so, I'd love to hear more.

I look forward to disagreeing with you in another thread!

 

Oh wow!

I had not anticipated so many responses in such a short time.

Since I was last able to post, something had occured to me. I think if figured out why video games have been so dominated by males for so long. Simply put it has to do with how we look through TV channels. Guys typically fly through them rapidly clicking until they find something. Women tend to flip, observe, flip, observe, flip. Both methods have their merrits, and I'm sure there are people outside the bell curve on both sides.

I think what it boils down to is differences in the male and female brains.

Males are more prone to twitch skill, tactical, and exploring games.

Women are more prone to expressive, puzzle solving, and social games.

I don't have any exact research, so I'm shooting from the hip there.

Point is; male games have been easier to make for a long time. To make a twitch game you just need a ship, a bullet, and an enemy and BOOM you've got a shooter. Tactical games are even older with games like chess. And exploration is still sort of a challenge to do.

Where as games that allow for expression require more memory for art assets. Social requires internet, or a ton of code for virtual narritive. And puzzles are generally abstract and can not just borrow from life making the concepts slower to emerge.

So while there have always been lots of women in computer science (like Grace Hooper), the technology and studio scope has not always been there for games that would appeal to them.

I'm not saying there aren't women that could whoop me in Team Fortress, nor am I saying that there aren't guys that love the Sims. I'm just saying it's a bell curve.

So with that in mind, when games were establishing their media in its infancy more male focused games were made out of need for simplicity. Which in turn set the president for video games being a "male activity".

What's left is a gender bias that makes females feel excluded from games by other gamers, and looked down on by their peers. So the only way to shake the stigma is through an "out" like smart phones. Mean while the AAA industry still only sees males in its market so they shovel out games like Soul Caliber and Dead or Alive.

Or something...

 

I find this statement offensive.

 

My thought is that if games are truly art then creators should be allowed to make whatever they please.

 

We can almost always trust the Americans to get very hyper and winded-up about these kind issues.

 

What is the need for this kind of statement? What does it provide if except a discriminatory stereotypical opinion?

 

It's a just a baby troll. Ignore it, it will move on if you don't give it attention.

 

Well, that question is at the core of the issue being discussed here: What is a review?
Different people will have different opinions about this. For me, a review is far more than just a "buy or not buy" recommendation. I do care about social context, politics in video games, etc. so I think a review can consider these aspects. Publications online and offline will have different answers to the "What is a review?" question and readers will chose accordingly. No problem here.

Then again, the accusation of clickbait is a valid one. Problem is, you can't tell from the outside. You just can't tell if a website like Polygon mentiones sexualized content in Bayonetta 2 to produce clickbait or because they're honestly concerned.

I am the first to admit that many claims of being offended come down to self-centered individuals replacing a valid discussion with a simple verbal statement that doesn't lead anywhere.

That being said: Being offended can be a starting point of a healthy back and forth. Let's replace sexual content with political messages to illustrate the point. When C&C Red Alert 2 came out there was a lot of controversy about a mission where the Russians conquered the Pentagon. Or remember the GLA suicide mission in C&C Generals where you had to blow up a market full of people? Both "offensive" around 9/11. German magazines also often downgrade video games for "being weak in the story department" if they offer nothing more than the standard "realistic, modern US military in a foreign country" plot. People critical of american foreign policy are actually offended by that and will downgrade a game for it.

 

If you believe there is such a thing as a `man` and a `woman`, that's sexism. We are not our bodies.