Serious communication issues with Unity's Asset Store Team.

The whole email is ambiguous and vague in it's very nature since it's a C&P.

Dustin would love to know to what extent from Unity so he's not wasting money playing guess games at what Unity will like or not like. That's the whole point, what's so wrong with him wanting them to clarify?

 

It is not as vague as you are trying to state. They don't want recreations. The part related to artistic styles and existing themes is for situations where the asset is merely very similar without being a recreation.

I do feel Unity could stand to look over some existing templates to verify that they follow the guidelines that are currently active. If they are going to lean heavily on the safe side, like they appear to be doing, they need to be a little more retroactive.

 

So now it's no longer about the name...? Or is it again, just not as a whole anymore?

I know that there's no point in making a unique game and then turning it into a template..no one is googling my unique game idea to see how it's done. Well, I see there's no business to be had anymore. I do love the two dozen endless runner clones though, guess they don't want anything other than that.

 

Why do you need very similar artwork, level designs, and title to teach someone a "quality and simplistic approach to game development"? If the template is truly quality work, it should be capable of standing on its own. That the OP had to recreate more than the gameplay mechanics says quite a lot about the quality of these assets.

 

Because it's more profitable if I had to guess.

 

Interesting thing I've noticed in a lot of Fair Use articles discussing "educational" purposes is a very common key word. That key word is "non-commercial".

I do understand that some text books come with excerpts from other sources, but those excerpts all have one basic fact in common. They are minor and not the entire focus on the product.

 

nobody was googling flappy bird either until it already became popular. So come up with something unique. Use the same mechanic. Create a blog post they says "hey here's my template and it uses the same mechanic as crappy bird so you can learn how its done." and everyone googling for crappy bird will find your game through your blog. No need to piggyback off of the original be reusing the name and content.

The name is a huge part of it bit its a combination of being almost identically (not just similarly) named and having nearly identical content except some color changes.

You guys can piss and moan about it until you're blue in the face and its not going to change anything. Obviously the canned response from Unity was perfectly clear to pretty much everyone except you guys so I'm not sure why you keep beating on it. We've all told you the things you need to change and you're getting this advice from successful asset store publishers so it may be wise to take it as constructive feedback instead of being combative and defensive.

 

yes, and that is actually stated im the government's published guidelines for educational fair use.

 

I was not looking for sympathy. I was looking for someone to answer the freaking email...hence why I said feel free to delete the thread, I especially wasn't looking for some troll to devote his/her week to condemning something that doesn't exist.

 

And therein lies the rub. You are using someone else's IP (or close to it) simply in order to profit from the success of their brand and their marketing. The copycat nature of the assets serves literally no other purpose. They are just as educational as generic 2d platformers, or whatever, as they are as Mario clones. They just won't make you as much money.

As far as coming up with a unique name, if it is truly about teaching people, then just name it something generic like "simple 2d platformer" That's what you are teaching them to do, that's what they'll be searching for if they are interested. You are teaching, not building a brand. You don't need a fancy character name.

 

I am on topic, the post you quoted was a direct response to a quote by charmanderon ("Dustin").

Edit: This is off topic, why are you calling someone "Dustin" when a) they've got a perfectly good username that's not "Dustin" and b) there's a person here who actually is called "Dustin". It could be quite confusing...

 

I'm gonna agree with everyone here that the main problem why its rejected is the name. I looked at the templates section at the asset store, and what stands out most is that even tho those templates are very similar to some already existing games, the general look of them is completely different, and the most important part is, all of them are named after the genre (ex. 2D Infinite Runner, FPS Shooter, Third Person MMORPG) or a combination of genre + sub genre (ex. 2D Infinite Car Racing, Space Shooter Starter Kit).

 

I find it interesting how many people claim that the problem is possible copyright infringement (or refer to the emailed response what states the same) and then suggest changing the name.

If the name is an issue, wouldn't that suggest that there is a trademark infringement problem not a copyright issue?

 

You are confusing two different pieces of advice. The copyright infringement is the exact replication of the Mario levels and the flappy bird layout. We can assume the same is true of Xelda, Mega Awesome Man, etc. That is why Unity said "we generally do not take content that is a direct recreation of existing popular games" The name alone wouldn't qualify for that statement. But, that doesn't mean that the names don't need to change. @Asvarduil even directly mentioned trademark. But it doesn't even need to be trademarked. Even copyright laws will protect you from someone trying to pass their work of as yours, or creating an environment where a consumer may feel as though the project is related to yours in some way. The use of similar names with exact levels only amplifies that portion of the problem.

Edit: See the "passing off" section of this site, and note how it is a distinct issue aside from Trademark: http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p18_copyright_names

 

great story.

I had similar problem recently.

when I recently upgraded to unity 4.5 I lost the "alpha" auto on my hierarchy so i emailed unity "contact" I emailed 4 times in one months time with no response from unity when couple times before I would get a reply immediately like they say they will.

so I decided to post the email on forums and with in same day I got response from member and unity tech and we fixed my problem which was in preferences.

my worry was that I was afraid and was felling like unity all the sudden did not give a crap about me as a FREE member idiot or a person in general and that success has made unity a big head.

Unity needs to contact you and tell you exactly what they are thinking about your flappy birds issue with no BS, not only are you a PRO who is wanting to contribute to UNITY but you sound as if you are sincere in what you are doing even though I hate all your games you worked so hard on and what kind they are.

my suggestion to you is copy a more sophisticated formate of game, because i believe you are right in doing what you wanted to do and that Unity needs to talk to you personally, as a colleague and PROfesional, you deserve at least that.

aaronhm77

 

how about some imaginative 3D ORIGINALITY people!

we (idiots) can create a whole 3D universe with game engines today why are people messing around with 2D baby garbage?

 

This is probably a bad idea...but, I'm going to bite. There are two key flaws:

1: 2D is not 'baby'. 2D has a well-established workflow and mature tools, and as a result is cheaper to develop. That doesn't mean it requires less skill somehow.
2: 2D is not 'garbage'. Many games that are selling well (Child of Light, Terraria, Shovel Knight) are 2D games themselves. As noted above, to do 2D requires skill, just like 3D.

I think that if you feel that 2D games are trivial to make, that you should put forward one of your works, so that we can all judge for ourselves. Your game might even change our minds!

 

unity needs to contact you

by the way i went to asset store looking for flappy birdeis art pack and there is not any.

curious

 

I am learning about computer science and computer game programing, I took time out from 3D and wanted to learn how to make 2D SPRITES as a way to save memory and make a GOOD 2D game.

it was to much new to learn & to involved for me to waste my time learning sprites when i could be learning 3D.

so i am forgetting 2D and sprites all together even though i really wanted to make a top down 2D game.

I have nothing against 2D but enough with the flappy birds and all the angry birds and etc.

to much is to much...

i am not a child and 2d is good for little BABIES but we at unity are not babies we are youth and grown ups who r on the thresh hold of being able to collectively create real life 3D games of the FUTURE.

aaronhm77

 

Is it a waste of time and effort?

Animated textures on 3D models behave the same way they do in Unity in a 2D setup, the difference is the complexity of the mesh involved; in my experience (see: The Hero's Journey) that difference is a quad, instead of a more complex model. If you're using Unity Pro, you have access to movie textures instead of having to do what I did and write my own sprite system (that could be willfully abused and applied to a 3D model. In fact...I need to try that on my current project...)

2D is simpler than 3D from a coding standpoint, as well as an art perspective. You're taking an entire dimension out of the equation. As you're someone who claims to be learning the process of game development, I'd think this would be a helpful mercy. As someone who did pretty much the same thing (3D Games course using Torque, then a 2D games course writing our own engines in C++ and SDL), in my experience the drop to 2D was a very refreshing change of pace.

The good news, is 2D knowledge is scalable. The coding practices you learn are applicable to 3D game development (mostly, use your darn vectors!), if the art practices aren't so much (3D adds a lot of extra art steps.) The disciplines surrounding audio are unchanged, as '3D sound' has been a thing for quite some time now. And, the actual design of your game is a completely different beast altogether.

I'm sorry; no one was calling you a child (the fact that you were remarking that a high-level graphics style is babyish is another argument altogether that I will refrain from making.) But, I think you've got a really poor attitude towards learning new things based on this; if your outlook on new skills continues to be this way, you haven't got much of a future at succeeding at anything.

Those who succeed learn and adapt. Those who fail, don't. The decision on which you are is in your hands. And, it's not limited to just game development, either.

 

if you ask me the asset store (which is Unity) needs to upgrade its public policies because in the future there are going to be more and more people wanting to put their stuff in the store for different reasons.

and we ALL have that right acording to Unity, especially PRO members.

i think C has right to know (more info) why his asset was rejected after all the work he did.

if you ask me it is un professional and is a negative on Unities side.

every one loves unity (except for those who do not) i like it because of its very name UNITY

but if we stop being a UNION then we stop being worth a damn.

aaronhm77

 

i disagree;

there are millions of 2D angry bird platform type games on the market thats because any one can make them, put them on mobile APPS and make a million dollars at 99 cents an app.

lots of people doing this are not interested in making GREAT games but only making MONEY and getting rich off of BABBY games.

... fine, money makes the world go round...it also CORRUPTS and turns things into GARBAGE!

but like I said I am not a baby...

and i love that i am able to learn either 2D or 3D games on Unity and learn via the internet.

and you are right, i am DUMB in that I am from the 70's and know nothing about 2D sprites and found out I do not have the patience or time to learn them but I will tell you that I have spent the last 2 years working 6 hours a day on unity... WORKING as a game developer and I hope some day to make a good indie game that is not a baby game but a semi professional sophisticated 3D GROWN UP game.

aaronhm77

 

This has to be the most short-sighted thing I have ever read on any internet forum. 2D or 3D is merely a style. A medium. The most adult, sophisticated, and involved story lines imaginable can be told in both mediums. Want proof? Every single movie ever made was in that evil baby-like 2D. Are you saying that every movie ever made is for babies? Or are you saying that you lack the skill as an artist, designer, programmer, whatever you fancy yourself, to bring that same level of depth to your game development? If you are relying on 3D to make your game "adult" and not "baby-ish" than you have pretty much zero chance of ever becoming successful. And if you think Angry Birds or Flappy Bird are the pinnacle of achievement in 2D games, then you really should play more games before venturing into designing them.

 

ha!

first of all i KNOW that good games are made with both 2D sprites and 3D.

the point i am making and my observations over the years is that any one (even non gamers) can COPY PASTE codes from internet

learn how to TWEEK them so that they r slightly different than the ORIGIANL game code and have a TEAM of money grubbers not honest gamerz publish an APP, call it 'ANGRY BIRDHEADS' and make over 1 million dollars selling at 99 cents an app world wide...

... as an easy money making, cheap peace of crap.

if you do not see this as REALITY and see how most of the APPS at the APP store are BABBY APPS for little BABBIES, not teens and definitely not grown ups, then you r one of the money grubbers i am speaking of and not honest hard working gamerz who care more about the game than the money made from making games.

thats just the way it iz and has been because its EASY MONEY for people who know how to make EASY money.

and don't insult my intelligence and say that this is not happening in the video gaming world.

i am not saying that there are no grown up apps or apps for teens but most mobile apps are BABBY apps

like ANGRY BIRDS.

who cares?

as to your saying that i will not be successful with just 3D give me a break.

sometimes i think that there is a 2D brain washing and conspiricy against 3D because in the future thats mostly what there will be.

all 3D

aaronhm77

 

So if he changes the name, resubmits & it gets rejected with a C&P template can we then assume that its not the name?
@Ryiah (and others making the same assumption) the problem here is that the email doesn't state 'We cant publish the product due to a conflicting name, please rename & resubmit'

the email is ambiguous in a sense that it offers no resolution to proceeding further with the submission, which IMO is a very important part of the process.

*Edit* More thoughts: Clearly something has violated a submission guideline to make the reviewer copy & paste the particular line in response. Surely the developer then is only getting half of the picture. Why would they not specify the reason or element that caused them to decide to deny the submission, rather than leave it generic.

Anyone who has ever submitted an app to Apple has likely had it rejected for something or other but, in the resolution centre they specifically advise what the problem is & you can actually respond & get a way to move forward & succeed in the submission.

The problem here is that everyone is interpreting the cut & paste response, no one can provide a succinct resolution to proceed, which again IMO is a flawed system & something that needs more attention.

 

Except 3D is pretty ancient too. It was being done back when wireframe was considered the best you could do and still be visibly animated (read: fast enough to realize it was animated before you got bored and walked away). Mainframes dominated the high end, Commodore was beginning to appear, and we hadn't realized beige cases were really ugly.

 

I wrote my first 3d graphics engine, well quake level viewer with collision detection, back in the mid 90s. Back then hardware graphics wasn't really widespread. We had to use sine and cosine lookup tables, avoid floating point math, and manually calculate the position of every pixel of texture coordinates using linear interpolation along the path of the triangles. So we've came a very long way even from when realtime 3d was useful for gaming. As far as I'm concerned, Unity, with its drag and drop insta-texturing is for "babbies." Don't get me wrong, I enjoy not having to do all that stuff anymore. But it's hard not to have a "Get off my lawn" type of reaction to anyone who thinks the tool, or graphics perspective, is what makes the game.

 

Finally someone who actually read the post, and isn't derailing the thread about copyright or 2d/3d crap. Also just to point out these days 2d and 3d is EXACTLY THE SAME in unity the only difference is if the camera rotates on the Y axis.

 

@charmandermon, Is it safe to assume that no one from the Unity Asset Store has contacted about this thread yet?

If so, that's disappointing.

 

Nothing...

 

I've been getting the impression that the Unity Asset Store team is rather small.

 

For me, it is out of questions that they don't have enough people.

 

Glad to see Unity living up to form!

I get the feeling that 'democratising game development' has nothing to do with listening to your users and responding to their needs.

How many Unity employees have seen this thread, yet still can't get a simple phone call organised?

 

Update: Unity Responded and the summary is they are trying to protect themselves by having anything controversial.

I pointed out this as one example of a clearly flappy birds rip off that is trying to ride the wave of its success.
http://u3d.as/99K

Anyways I don't care anymore these projects have drained me more than I have put in so far, and I would rather focus on positive projects. My original goal was to help interested students with this fun side project but that isn't an option here.
On to better things!

Thanks Unity for Clarification.

NOTE TO MODS: LOCK THE THREAD IT HAS DERAILED ENOUGH

 

I don't really see why it should be locked yet. I think it's run out of steam and will die off naturally. I won't tolerate any stupid 3D vs 2D arguments and will delete those and hand out warning points like candy from this point. Stay on topic or don't post.

 

Except this asset is called "Sprite Pack #1 - Tap and Fly" which is a far different name for one. "Flappy Bird", "Flappy Birdies", "Sprite Pack #1 - Tap and Fly".... notice the difference?

Also, the art is a considerable amount different. It's using blocks rather than pipes and has added other additional elements... so while the mechanic may be essentially the same... it is still much more differentiated than Flappy Birdies.

 

Except that that's exactly what they haven't said, leading me back to my other post in this thread. Unless you work for Unity Asset store & are advising the developer what the issue is, you know as much as he does.

Did they say its an issue with the name? No.
Did they say the artwork is too similar? No.

They haven't really said anything in how to proceed with the submission, which to me doesnt make sense. They should at the least provide detail on what the specific issue for rejection is, and steps to proceed past it. At the moment its a brick wall.

Any looking at the Tap and Fly pack - to me thats clearly flappy bird, same art style, same hand with pointed finger tap to start, same end screen layout, same font for number tally.. The blueprint framework artstyle is clearly different to flappy birds.

Are we then saying its mechanics?
Do we not allow starter kits with popular mechanics?

At the end of the day the pack could be a few hours of tweaks away from accepted, or never to be accepted at all (at least he'd know and can move on) - but its not clear in the communication from the reviewer & when Unity is (im sure) making good $$ from sales I think the developers deserve more.

 

its not their job to tell you exactly how to build your stuff. They also reserve the right to refuse assets purely because they feel like it, though they don't. they don't owe you anything. If you don't like the way its handled, sell it yourself or through a different outlet. It was obvious to me and nearly everyone else why it was rejected. You guys are just so obsessed with the notion that you need ultra specific guidance that you're keeping the blinders on and failing to see the forest for the trees.

 

@Dustin Horne : Just to be clear, I have nothing to do with the asset at all & on top of that, its not an asset i'd use. I;'m referring to the process.

I think you're missing the point though, whether obvious or not in interpretation - why not outline it clearer & remove blurred lines?

This is far from the first time i've seen someone post on the forum unhappy with generic/vague responses from the asset store team, so look beyond this specific example as well.

 

I don't think he is. There are also downsides to outlining it more clearly. Lets say the first evaluator knocks it back because the name is only different by three letters, so the name is changed and it's resubbed only for another evaluator to knock it back for some other reason? Or even the same evaluator - why keep evaluating after it's already failed? The experience there is potentially far worse than what's in place now.

What if they'd said specifically "We don't like X because Y."? Users could come back and ask "Ok, how much do I have to change about X?" And then if they don't reply to that, here we are again. Like Dustin Horne is pointing out, the logical conclusion is that they'd be telling you what to build. The line has to be drawn somewhere. I agree it'd be nice if we got a list back with reasons for the rejection, but I can understand Unity opting not to do that for a variety of reasons (workload, liability, questions about whether it would actually improve the experience in a practical sense).

 

If that is how the process is run behind the scenes then that is more worrying than lack of info. The process should be removed of personal interpretation & evaluations should be based on equal merit, regardless of who is evaluating it.

Why keep evaluating it after its failed? Because if indeed its failed because of a name, then the product itself is fine.

Do you think it would be acceptable for Apple to have a one strike submission process? You either get it right the first time or its binned?

 

that's not even possible and defies human nature. Only if it were rum by robots could you completely remove personal interpretation.

 

I don't see how you picked any of those issues from what I wrote. I spoke to neither the objectivity nor allowances for resubmissions.

 

Anyways, I've said my piece - i'm out !

 

Why keep evaluating it in that submission. I didn't suggest that you don't re-evaluate it ever.

That is to say, if the name fails then why spend time assessing the content? No matter what the content is the decision isn't going to change so, in the context of the other givens I mentioned, why spend any more time on it?

(NB: I'm not harping on the name of the OPs stuff, I only picked that because it's an obvious early point in the assessment.)

 

Thanks .

They could just tell us why it was declined..I don't see how that's unreasonable whatsoever. We're not asking for a list of reasons, just something a little more specific like "The art is a little too close to X, it requires a different theme.".

 

additionally, Dabeh mentioned not using a unique name because no one is googling it. All of the other things aside, in the U.S. it is illegal to intentionally name your product in a manner that would allow it to be potentially misconstrued as the original. And the product doesn't have to be similar. A couple years ago a microbrew company was sued by Starbucks and lost. They created a limited run beer that they called frappacino. Starbucks is the owner of the Frappucino name (one letter difference). Even though one is a coffee drink and the other was a beer that was only a limited run, Starbucks successfully made the case that the name was too close to theirs and that it may confuse customers.

Now, if the ridiculous notion that a beer may be confused for an iced coffee drink held up in court, imagine what would happen with a claim in this case where the product itself is also a direct knockoff of the name that's being copied, regardless of whether you say it's for "educational" purposes. It's a commercial product regardless of your intent.

it's not Unity's job to be your lawyer and giving legal advice creates a potential liability issue for them. Instead, they just do you a favor and deny your submission. It's your responsibility to make sure you are operating within the confines of the law. You seem pretty sure that you are but I'm not sure you did your due diligence in investigating the possible ramifications of your decisions, especially in terms of naming.

 

You mean this?

Unless you're talking about a different post I may have forgotten about, that could be stretching it a bit. I was saying that originality when it comes to templates is not rewarded, if I was to come up with a whole new unique game no one would be buying the template unless it was truly revolutionary(and then I should just be putting it on the store myself in that case); it has nothing to do with the name.

 

Except while someone may not Google the unique game name or game idea you have, they may Google "2d flying bird template". I did and one of the results on the first page is a tutorial about making a game similar to Flappy Bird in Unity.

http://anwell.me/articles/unity3d-flappy-bird/