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SEGI (Fully Dynamic Global Illumination)

Discussion in 'Assets and Asset Store' started by sonicether, Jun 10, 2016.

  1. scheichs

    scheichs

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    Hmm, I don't know if "Support for forward-rendered objects." is the same like "Support for forward-rendering mode". As you said, the most speed-gaining first step would be to have voxelisation happens only once for VR (and some other common scenarios)
     
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  2. SteveB

    SteveB

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    What's a 'forward rendered object' then? Unless I've missed something, that's like saying 'VR rendered objects'. In other words how can you have a forward rendered anything when in deferred rendering?

    Btw I'm actually asking, in the event this is a thing, as I've never encountered it before! :D
     
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  3. LennartJohansen

    LennartJohansen

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    In deferred rendering some object fall back to Forward rendering. Like semi-transparent objects.
     
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  4. SteveB

    SteveB

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    Interesting...and far less compelling than forward rendering support, yea.

    Thanks man!
     
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  5. NEOMORPH_STUDIO_SRL

    NEOMORPH_STUDIO_SRL

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    I'm also interested in performance (especially for VR) and the implementation of Voxel Cascades. I would like to ask @sonicether about an estimate on Voxel Cascades and VR performance optimizations.

    Also, a very important question for me: can I use semitransparent/refractive materials such as glass with reflections supplied by Reflection Probes in the current implementation of SEGI?
    Has anyone that uses SEGI managed to get good (realistic) results for a Glass Shader and if so, would you be so kind as to share the settings for that material? Thank you!
    -
     
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  6. ksam2

    ksam2

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  7. paxilon

    paxilon

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    Hi Sonicether,

    I got some problems regarding heavy flickering when moving upwards in the world? Do you have a hint what I can do to make it more stable?

    Same goes for an object which is in sight flying with me...

    Thanks in advance :)
     
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  8. Lex4art

    Lex4art

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    Standard shader with transparent mode works fine (SEGI reflections ignores semi-transparent objects and that gives opportunity for standard ReflectionProbes to kick in (or something like that)):
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2016
  9. NEOMORPH_STUDIO_SRL

    NEOMORPH_STUDIO_SRL

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    Thank you, @Lex4art! That is what I was looking for. I've tried playing with reflection probes and it looks pretty good. Thanks for the settings, too ;)
     
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  10. sonicether

    sonicether

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    Again, resource sharing between multiple cameras shouldn't be too difficult to get working (huge benefit for VR). As for forward rendered object support, that's going to be quite difficult. The best idea I have for that would at least require modification of forward shaders in some way.

    As for Unity 5.5, I'll start working on getting SEGI working with it as soon as possible. Since it might be quite difficult to manage multiple branches of development (one that works with 5.4 and below, and one that works with the new inverted depth buffer in 5.5), I might have to have any new updates for SEGI be 5.5+ only. I'll find out how much needs to be changed to work with the new inverted depth buffer and make a decision based on that.


    You might get a more stable result by enabling the Gaussian Mip Filter and Voxel AA. Sadly, GI from moving objects is never going to be completely stable simply as a limitation of voxel-based GI.
     
  11. MelvinEng

    MelvinEng

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    Hey there Cody,

    I hope translucent surfaces haven't been forgotten?
    (ie. what happens when light gets transmitted through non-opaque surfaces)

    Cheers :)
    Melvin Eng
     
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  12. PatrickReynolds

    PatrickReynolds

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    This asset looks incredibly promising, but I was wondering how well it worked with VR out of the box? I have a deadline for a VR presentation coming up, and the built in lightmppping solutions just are not cutting it.

    Can anyone give me any information about VR compatibility? Thank you!
     
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  13. SteveB

    SteveB

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    Actually yea I'd love to know what's next (5.5 compat aside). A couple of performance additions could dramatically improve usage for VR...
     
  14. arnoob

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    Great news! As SEGI is still in beta it's good to hear that it will focus on next generations of Unity.

    Also could you elaborate a bit more how resource sharing will work? Can it be used for standard Fps with a camera dedicated to the player's gun for example? Or in split screen multiplayer game? What are the performance improvement to expect? Will it work with cascades? (I know, so many questions...).

    And a last question I wanted to ask for a long time : is there any way to make it work without using directX in the futu? (in order to use it in a game on Linux for example?)
     
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  15. PatrickReynolds

    PatrickReynolds

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    So, I went ahead and purchased the asset in the hopes that it would work for my needs. When I attached it to my camera I get this error:

    I've tried attaching the script to both a VR and non-VR camera, and both are giving me this error.
     
  16. buttmatrix

    buttmatrix

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    If you were looking for a quick-fix to achieve realistic lighting in Unity for VR, SEGI is probably not the answer. I'm a huge fan of SEGI, and Cody's work in general, but I test SEGI in all of my VR builds at least once during development - just to see how good a scene could really look - and I have not yet been able to find a deployable use case. That being said, there are a number of videos from hackathons and other projects that have used SEGI successfully, but not in VR, to my knowledge.
     
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  17. buttmatrix

    buttmatrix

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    courtyard-1.jpg Screenshot (95).png
    The top image is a beautiful screenshot posted on Sonic Ether's website promoting SEGI. Apart from the extremely clean GI on nearly all surfaces, the thing that strikes me the most is the antialiasing. Considering that SEGI only operates in the deferred path, thus prohibiting the use of MSAA, how does one achieve AA this smooth? The bottom image is my attempt at replication and includes SENBDL, Unity AO (cinematic), and one directional light.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2016
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  18. SteveB

    SteveB

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    ^I agree with Crossway?!!? :eek:

    Lol
     
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  19. Mauri

    Mauri

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  20. SteveB

    SteveB

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    This is true and I must confess I'm a new toys junkie and always update my projects to the latest (within reason), so while I agree with crossway, it's now been downgraded to:

    "Yep I can agree with that, but..."

    Lol
     
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  21. Lex4art

    Lex4art

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    buttmatrix - for achieving crisp AA there some ways like https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/37214 or, since Unity v5.4, native supersampling inside editor:
    HiResViewport.png
    (but this one works weird).

    I have a question too! SceneView FX asset not supporting latest Unity 5.5 but some movements from Unity team now allows native display of post-effects in "Scene" window. Is it possible for SEGI work same way without additional plugins?
     
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  22. arnoob

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    It was actually already the case in 5.4, I don't understand why they didn't talked more about this.
    You can enable/disable them by toggling the "image effect" button, under where you activate skybox, animated materials etc at the top of the Scene window.
    However it only works with (most of) the Unity's official Cinematic Effects.
     
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  23. elbows

    elbows

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  24. arnoob

    arnoob

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    Thank you for pointing that,
    I didn't knew devs could use this feature!
     
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  25. sonicether

    sonicether

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    I used Temporal Anti-Aliasing in this screenshot. Though it has some downsides in motion, I'm of the belief that it's completely worth it for scenes that don't have frequently changing lighting.

    Oh, and regarding future updates and 5.4/5.5, having recently dealt with the inverted depth buffer with my new screen-space shadows effect, switching between supporting a non-inverted depth buffer and an inverted one ended up being a lot more painless than I thought. I can make it even easier on myself by using a single wrapper function for getting depth such that I'd literally only have to change one line of code to switch functionality per-shader. So, I'll continue to support sub-5.5 versions for future updates as well as 5.5.
     
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  26. davide445

    davide445

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    Maybe was already discussed (really a mess not having thread search in forum), but I was just reading about the upcoming Lighting Modes in Unity 5.6.
    Interested to know if this can meaning we will be able to mix backed and realtime illumination provided by SEGI, or will suitable only using Unity internal tools.
     
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  27. ksam2

    ksam2

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    sonicether


    Can we send you our Invoice number to get Unity 5.5 compatible version? cause Asset Store may take some time to accept new update.
     
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  28. tartiflette25

    tartiflette25

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    Just bought the asset and love it :D Wish the demo scene were included in the final product tho.
     
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  29. SteveB

    SteveB

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    Can we get an update @sonicether on at least the direction of SEGI?

    SSShadows look fantastic but don't forget about us over here...
     
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  30. tartiflette25

    tartiflette25

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    with 5.6 around the corner and the new lightning system, wish @sonicether will have the time to work on SEGI ^^
     
  31. SteveB

    SteveB

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    Just doing my job keeping this thread going because I love this asset...

    ...Now I give every developer on these forums and on the Asset Store a chance as it is a hard line of work to be in. A lot of us have been invested in and very excited by the likes of DGI from 2013 and of course the infamous SpectraGI by Livenda. Both were very sincere and exciting at the beginning, and both sadly ended up the exact same way; communication slowed then stopped, people kept asking until it all amounted to nothing.

    You've gone a lot further with SEGI and your product is fantastic, absolutely gorgeous right now. It's not a lack of progress that becomes an issue, it's the lack of communication. It's knowing you've seen our questions and requests and yet nothing.There's no reason to avoid having at least a discussion about it. If you don't know what you're going to do or simply do not want to, or cannot work on it, tell us and we can move on.

    Otherwise keep building this amazing asset and build your business and the fortunes will come. Again I love how your Screen-Space Shadows look and will be confidently purchasing it upon release, and I'd be willing to throw more money at SEGI if thats what it takes.

    Just talk to us man.

    Cheers and good luck

    -Steven


    (Before anyone feels this message is outside of the scope of the thread, understand I along with several others here have purchased the asset, so that should afford us a voice and concern for our investment. I believed in SEGI and Sonic when it was first announced, and still do today. At the very least a dialog should be maintained and requesting we have communication shouldn't be seen as unreasonable)
     
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  32. davide445

    davide445

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    I think GI it's a complex and time demanding work, being worse from the fact Unity it's a moving target.
    I think for a single even if gifted developer will be difficult to focus so much on a so big task, needing to balance commercial work (cash flow generating) and investment (new asset development). Geomerics does have something about 18 employees and Enlighten it's their only product.
    I'll love to see SEGI progressing and think the best way to help @sonicether will be to create stunning visuals, so to further develop the brand and speed the adoption. This will give sonic money to invest with.
    I'll suggest also an offer Kickstarter crowdfunding platform with some game to achieve funding and hire dev that can help in creating a real cross platform product.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2016
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  33. elbows

    elbows

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    Although I understand this point in general, I'm not sure I understand it in the context of this particular moment in time. The asset author has replied several times in December and it seems pretty clear where the focus is:

    5.5 compatibility
    Continued work on getting voxel cascades into useable shape.

    Other requests, such as forward rendered object support, have been responded to in a manner that appears open and realistic. Personally I kind of expect that until voxel cascades are working, not too many feature requests will jump ahead of voxel cascades in terms of priority.

    Now dont get me wrong, I always like more communication and I'd rather the updates during the beta period happened with greater frequency. But I dont really feel that we've been left out of communications, especially recently, just that progress hasnt happened quickly enough for our liking. Voxel cascades doesnt sound ripe enough yet for accurate timescale predictions to be given on that one, but it would be good to know if there is a timescale being aimed at for 5.5 support.
     
  34. tartiflette25

    tartiflette25

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    Indeed, he's been active on this thread less than 2 weeks ago, it's clear that SEGI is getting worked on and that the focus is indeed 5.5 compatibility.

    Give the guy a break really lol.
     
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  35. SteveB

    SteveB

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    Critique is a part of life and how we get better, and ideally, I'm only being constructive here.

    I've mentioned this before, but my litmus test for an assets future viability hinges almost exclusively on the authors participation in their thread. This is a learned behavior from years of seeing so many amazing assets get ghosted by the developer and forever forgotten. I've been burned financially by these assets, so now I watch the developer and observe how they speak to their consumer. No matter how stupid the question, or how many times they have to repeat the same answer to the same question, and then ultimately how quickly they respond speaks volumes about themselves and how they treat their business.

    Quantum Theory has created an amazing asset that is the pinnacle of quality on the Unity Asset Store (go read my review if you like). As he's openly stated sales aren't 'amazing' on the Asset Store (it has a far and away a better reception on the Unreal Marketplace), which is why he's supplemented his earnings by creating a mobile version of the same asset which now is apparently doing better here. Because of this adjustment he's now working on Volume 2 of the Rome Fantasy Pack and it looks amazing as expected.

    The standout thing with him, and why I'm mentioning this here, is he's a perfect example of the the kind of developer support that gives me tremendous confidence in the product and a real desire to support him in any way I can. Despite sales being under expectation, he never fails to answer questions and responds almost immediately. We always know where his product is in development, even if the updates are minor (right now he's doing just the modeling, so we get peeks at grey-surface models but no materials yet). At the end of the day I know and trust we're going to have continuing quality products from Quantum.

    All the key assets I love and use, such as Playmaker, Flowcanvas, FinalIK, Master Audio, Adventure Creator, UFPS and so on all have one thing in common...incredible support. All I want is SEGI to be in that list.

    So sure I can "give him a break", shrug and be done with it, or I can offer up what I hope is received as constructive criticism and perhaps guide Sonic towards this elite class of asset that I feel SEGI deserves.

    I appreciate the conversation, so do what you guys will with this.

    Cheers

    -Steven
     
  36. Lex4art

    Lex4art

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    + 1 to less words moar screenshots from own levels with SEGI :)
     
  37. buttmatrix

    buttmatrix

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    Once a week is probably acceptable.
     
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  38. SteveB

    SteveB

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    Yea to start. Like I said, if a question is posed and you're on the forum anyway, answer it? No biggie and believe you me that presence on the forum will be felt and rewarded.
     
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  39. sonicether

    sonicether

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    Hey guys, the Unity 5.5 compatibility update should be done either today or tomorrow. Not much else to tell other than what you already know. I'll let you know when I've submitted the update.
     
  40. SteveB

    SteveB

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    Well that was the point to my posts above; we'd love to know! :D

    Yes you mentioned cascades which will be another wonderful visual enhancement as it extends the volume further without needing more memory (thus higher GI detail close to the camera) but what about performance enhancements?

    Up above other questions were asked as to the approach of allowing single-pass stereo (40% +/- increase in VR performance) and forward rendered objects. Then of course there's still all the features on your Roadmap (you should update that now too).

    I just want to see your enthusiasm for SEGI again and continue the talk you started back in Oct, engaging the community and wanting feedback. That was great and felt like a turning point towards a full 1.0 release!

    I know you may cringe at my seemingly critical posts, but equally you have to know I'm your biggest proponent, not your antagonist. I scream about SEGI everywhere I can. I've gotten people on the VRTK Slack channel interested in SEGI and posted screenshots of some of my work. (F*** me if I can't find them to post here now...I will upon 5.5 release since I'm fully switched over).

    More discussion about features and progress towards full 1.0 release, more screenshots (this I agree with wholeheartedly and I'll help out as soon as I'm able to) and consistent communication and updating of the roadmap so new customers see that SEGI is indeed full steam ahead.

    Cheers

    -Steven
     
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  41. TooManySugar

    TooManySugar

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    I would also ease my foot from the gas pedal in the same situation the dev is. To be honest I'm still impresed that the project is not paused so asking so eagerly for stuff make no much sense IMO.
     
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  42. SteveB

    SteveB

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    Sonic is creating a product for sale, not for free. This is business and I'm critiquing it strictly from a business perspective. If he was working on this for free I wouldn't have a place to say anything. If he wants it to succeed and make him money (which I think would be a huge benefit to him and his development) then he needs to take steps to help himself make this happen. I've given many very specific examples and in EACH case those other developers have thrived.

    My eagerness shows he can gain a valued and vocal customer base that can help HIM support SEGI and get word of mouth circulating. So with all due respect it makes perfect sense.
     
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  43. zenGarden

    zenGarden

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    This is still Beta, so you can't expect too much and critique too much as the product is in the makings.
     
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  44. SteveB

    SteveB

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    It being in Beta has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
     
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  45. zenGarden

    zenGarden

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    I was just saying you need to become patient instead and let the author take his time. It's too early to ask too much.
     
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  46. SteveB

    SteveB

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    No I know and I agree with that philosophically, but if I may ask, how much time? I've linked to a post from over 2 months ago where SEGI was to be worked on in earnest again, and we were being asked about new features and what direction we'd like to see SEGI progress...what happened to that?

    It felt like a conversation was going to be had then it disappeared, but with infrequent mentions of cascades, and an update adding temporal aliasing, but that's it. No talk about performance enhancements or VR since this past Summer when SEGI was first announced.

    Then we hear of a completely different asset being worked on, Screen Space Shadows (again they look wonderful) but that took time away from SEGI.

    You do know I wrote one of the first, glowing reviews on the Asset Store? My being concerned for the future development of SEGI is born out of love of the asset, not anger or irrationality. I fully understand development (look at my signature) so I know what all of this takes.

    I can't seem to make this clear enough that I truly want SEGI to succeed.
     
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  47. chiapet1021

    chiapet1021

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    This is pure speculation, and I want to respect SonicEther's personal privacy, but it's hard for me to not think that the recent downturn in his family is at least a main reason, if not the only one, for the loss of momentum and communication. That's not an excuse for the lack of updates and posts; I share a lot of SteveB's concerns and reasoning. But at the same time, developers are human, which not only means they are fallible, but they are also susceptible to emotions (and discouragement) that come from events outside of game development.

    It's also the holiday season right now, which would already be a distraction for a lot of asset developers. It's probably even more so for Cody, given his circumstances. Perhaps the new year will bring newfound motivation and inspiration. I certainly hope it will.
     
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  48. SteveB

    SteveB

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    Well said Chiapet and yea, I agree and I avoided 'elephant in the room' for obvious reasons, keeping the talk just to SEGI. Rest assure I'm one of these so-called "human's" you speak of so I'm fully aware of all the things IRL, hehe.

    Here's to a happy holiday for everyone and a profitable SEGI 2017. :)
     
  49. sonicether

    sonicether

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    Alright, I think I've got everything working in 5.5



    Getting voxelization to work with 5.5 was a bit of a challenge, I had to manually invert a few matrices. I did end up using preprocessor directives, so I've yet to check, but everything should still be backwards compatible.
     
  50. Shinyclef

    Shinyclef

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    Well done Sonic. I'm always pleased to see your updates :).
     
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