RPG Attribute System

So I came up with a long list of attributes to put into my game. Currently the system is called, PSVCCAAGIWRALEEG, or Lamprey's System for short. It contains Power, Strength, Vitality, Constitution, Cunning, Agility, Acrobatics, Guile, Intelligence, Wisdom, Recollection, Aptitude, Luck, Ego, Esteem, and Greed... Looking for suggestions to make this system better. The attribute scoring will be pretty similar to D&D, with four d6 being rolled to find the scores. I am also looking to improve the scoring system for orginality and more complexity

 

That is a lot of attributes! You might consider making some of the modify the base attributes rather than actually BE attributes.

 

It's not the size of your character sheet that's important, it's how you use them... No seriously, how do you use them?

 

I second this question, as an RPG lover. What are the mathematics underlying your battle system?

 

Power - Attack Damage and Intimidation Checks
Strength - Carry Weight and Strength Checks
Vitality - Health Points and Health Regeneration
Constitution - Physical and Disease Resistances
Cunning - Armor Penetration, Hiding, Moving Quietly
Agility - Movement Speed and Thievery Checks (Pickpocket and Lock picking so far)
Acrobatics - Dodge and Climb
Guile - Trick Check and Persuade Check
Intelligence - Intelligence Checks and Attribute Points per Level
Wisdom - Mana Points and Memory
Recollection - Skill Points per Level
Aptitude - Magic Damage and Mind Spell Requirements
Ego - Mentally Self Centered or not (Forces Plot Choices)
Greed - Physical Self Centered or not (Forces Plot Choices)
Esteem - Mental Liking of Self or not (Forces Plot Choices)
Vanity - Physical Liking of Self or not (Forces Plot Choices)
Luck - RaNdOmNeSs! (Good or Bad)

 

@Lamprey - Not what I meant. You told me the roles of the variables, which is good. What are the actual formulas that express the game systems?

Note: In other news, it would be useful if the forums supported LaTeX (a markup for mathematical notation).

 

Oh my bad. I'm doing turn based battle system where every turn I have it recalculate all the players stats and the enemies stats based on everything. This includes weather conditions, terrain, physical wounds, mental wounds, equipment, and of course the players actions in the fight. The player is free to roam the field and can use ranged weapons and melee weapons as well as magic. Currently I'm focusing on the D&D style roll up of a character. The game automatically rolls four d6 and drops the lowest for each of the 17 attributes. Then the player can choose whether to rearrange them to their liking or re-roll up to 2 more times, before having to stick with their character's attributes. In the planned hardcore mode, there will only be one roll and that's it. After getting their attributes assigned each is given a modifier from +3 to -3. These modifiers go into the numerous checks the player must meet. Luck will randomly roll a check value and then the player must roll, and then their modifier will be added on top of that to see if they rolled higher and passed. The combat is determined by your weapon and each weapon has different abilities that are modified by the bonus from each attribute. Let's say you have a +3 attribute bonus from Strength, you will get +3 to any roll you make against Strength based checks, such as Carry while encumbered, allowing you to still move around the map for a certain amount of turns while carrying too much. Power modifies how much damage you do per hit. Cunning determines how easily you get through armor. Agility can guarantee some of the time how accurate you are. Acrobatics is used every turn to determine whether you are able to dodge an attack. That's the basics. If you want to clarify your question further, please do. I'm still a little confused on what you're asking.

 

By 'what formulas' are you using, I'm not asking so much about conditional effects, like rolling against stacks.

On my (on-hold) RPG project, the primary way I balance encounters is by using mathematics to determine a 'normal' encounter duration, assuming some baseline stats. The most common system for designing RPG combat looks like this:




Where:
TTD = Time to Defeat
HP = Hit Points
DPS = Damage/Second
M = Encounter margin

The two equations are part of a system; the LaTeX generator won't export a PNG if it's in a multiline format, unfortunately.

DPS in turn is derived by:



Where:
DPS = Same as above
nu (the funny v) = Frequency under which damage occurs

Note: While DPS is exposed in MMOs as a matter of course, it's used in turn-based games as well; a turn is (often) the unit of time in which the damage occurs. In other words, DPS matters in more than just MMOs. In fact, DPS matters in more than just Eastern or Western RPGs; want to balance a machine gun in a FPS game? Player health / gun DPS leads to optimal time to kill as well. But, we're getting off topic.

Given the stats you've outlined and their functions, I'd expect your equation looks like this, assuming a turn is the unit of time in your game (given the many D&D references):



Where:
(TTD equation variables are the same)
PWR = Power
CON = Constitution
ARMP = Armor Penetration
VIT = Vitality
HOTC = Heal-Over-Time Coefficient (restoring HP each turn equal to the VIT stat of the target would be just plain crazy.)

This model has limitations as you can see. It discounts healing on the target (increases TTD), it discounts random effects like critical hits (larger than normal reduction of TTD), or 'utility' abilities (alters TTD by changing some other stat, or prematurely ending the battle in a state that's neither victory nor defeat, in the case of a 'flee' mechanic.)

I personally find it most useful to design battles assuming no special random effects go off. Of course, it's a good idea as a result of randomness, to account for margin in terms of the following:

- Random effects (Damn RNG gods...)
- Character level (what is the weakest a character could start the encounter? What's the most powerful?)
- Character gear (above and beyond level, what's the worst equipment characters could have? What's the strongest?)
- Non-optimal/Unexpected ability use (just because an encounter is designed to be fought one way does not mean players will do it that way.)

In other words, you need to design how close a battle should be - should the player get away from the encounter with slivers of HP and possibly KOd party members, or should the battle be a complete roflstomp?

TL;DR - That equation is sort of what I was talking about. Remember, enemies exist to lose in a fun and engaging way.

 

I see what you mean. In all honesty I'm focusing on character creation and world generation. Combat is really big and hard to tackle. I like your approach but when I finally get to combat, I will remember your very good equation. I really feel like a game is only good as the sum of its parts. A game with a crap character creation system could have the best combat but still feel lacking. That's why I'm taking on the creation side first. If its alright, I may PM you once I get to combat.

 

It's good you have a focus. As a matter of having had issues when developing the early part of my RPG, though, I'd advise you to start with your game systems first, before tackling character creation - the beginning and ending of a game service the middle of the game, in other words, in my experiences so far.

When you know how your system works, and know what the variables are, you can create more meaningful character templates or 'roll-your-own' choices for the player - you will have a firmer idea of where your game is going, what tools will be interesting for a new player to use to play your game, and be able to make all of that contribute not only to a (hopefully) satsifying conclusion, but a satisfying journey as well.

 

Enter your formula at the following site, click "Get PNG" and select a size, then use the image's URL in between tags.

http://www.texrendr.com/



Grabbed the example formula off Wikipedia because I've never used LaTeX.

 

WOW!

And this is like your 14th post on the forum?

 

I tend to think of this image whenever someone says, "Oo! I'm designing an RPG! Look at my stat-barf!"

I'm about to be getting reasonably far off topic, but I have a purpose that might help not only the OP, but anyone who wants to create an RPG, whether eastern or western. I'm not bashing that the OP wants to create a modified D20 system; we tend to want to make what we play. If you play a lot of D&D, it makes sense you'd want a D20 system with whatever tweakes/house rules you typically play with, that services the campaign you've designed for your player. I'm OK with that.

What I'm not OK with, is the apparent mindset of people who are new to RPGs, that the quality of the (theoretical) game is directly proportional to the number of stats in play at any given time. I found a while back that it's simply a myth, with no basis in reality for the designer, the developer(s), or the player.

The reason more stats does not help a designer is...well, take a look at the equation based on the OP's stat function list. Doing something like this is key to figuring out where to start with your encounter design, iterative playtesting will have you tweaking individual values. The problem is, most of these are arbitrary, they're fine-tuning knobs where they're probably not needed. A basic RPG, a prototype, a MVP, when you get to it, needs exactly two core stats: an HP system, and Damage. That's it.

The reason more stats does not help a developer, is:

1. It's a bigger data structure to manage, with fields, properties, and functions
2. It's more stuff that you have to save whenever you want to save the game state
3. Players, NPCs, and Enemies don't share all of the same stats! Typically, NPC/Enemies have a subtly different ruleset to make them challenging, in a get defeated by the player sort of way.

In short, it adds complexity. Now, if the game design calls for that complexity, complexity is OK; you sort of have to implement that. But stats for stats sake is just going to make your life hell later on, and for no reason.

The reason it doesn't help the player, is due to a concept that Zileas of Riot Games calls "Burden of Knowledge". If you want to sound really high-brow, you can call it "Cognitive Load". The point is, more stats means more things that the player has to keep track of.

Now, all games require some degree of cognitive load. Cognitive load is not a bad thing, it is merely 'a thing'. However, similar to the caveat for developers, we want to ensure that the cognitive load for the player is as heavy as it needs to be - no lighter, and no heavier. If the cognitive load is too light, players will put our game down out of boredom, they will cease to be challenged (this happened to WoW, in my experience.) If the cognitive load is too heavy, players will put down our game out of frustration and the desire to simply give it a rest.

So, long story short, if you're creating an RPG, ask yourself - honestly - if you're stat-spamming yourself, the developer, and the player. If you cannot fully justify a stat, by creating numerous interesting choices in pursuit of a goal that is compelling for your player, cut it. If you're designing an RPG from scratch, start with the basic Time to Defeat equation as given above, as an initial tool to design your combat encounters with - don't lay on any new stats unless you need to adjust a Time to Defeat, and the stats in the game don't give you the resolution you need to achieve the margin you want.

TL;DR - I have to quote Musashi Miyamoto, the author of the medieval Japanese treatise on swordsmanship and warfare, The Book of Five Rings: "Do nothing that is useless." In fact, look up some of his other quotes while you're at it - they apply to more than just martial arts.

 

So essentially I have a new method. I came up with 6 character attributes and split each one into two "focuses". So instead of 17 attributes I now have Strength, Vitality, Agility, Cunning, Aptitude, and Wisdom. So basically two for each base play style (Fighter, Rogue, and Mage). Then the 4 choice skills were put in a different category called Character Mentality. Any further suggestions are very welcome.

Edit: The focuses are, respectively Power, Fortitude, Constitution, Vigor, Dexterity, Acrobatics, Swift handedness, Guile, Prowess, Balance, Intelligence, and Recollection.

 

That's also a part of teaching the player and the paralysis of choice. This is the worst aspect of character creation, because before a player has any clue what to do, what the game is like, and how they will play the game, they are given a wall of options and told not to F*** up.

I've got an idea that's been kicking around in the back of my head for a turn based strategy RPG in the vein of FFT/FFTA that would have a ton of stats/skills. It's just that before a player needs to know what they do (and how combinations would work), they are given classes that vaguely teach what stats do. It wouldn't be until characters start swapping classes that the player would begin to discover that the underlying stats carry over and have an impact even in the new class. You might find out that by turning a character that was a black mage into a healer suddenly means that the character can heal at a distance, where a brand new character made into a healer wouldn't be able to do that and can only heal by touch or aura. It may even be that a character that was only ever a healer the entire game can't heal at a distance since they accrue very little exp into the stat that black mages train intensely in.

 

Yeah, that's called "pigeon-holing" and it sucks. There's no reason why a character shouldn't be able to grow anyway they want.

As to OP, I'm not trying to be an ass, it's just that this system seems way overly complicated and unnecessary. Also, as anew user I'm banking that you have no idea how to do ANY of what you're suggesting.

Try starting with simple and small.

 

Ryiah, you're my new favorite forum member. Updated my mathematical post above with PNGs.

 

Ultimately most RPGs seem to be moving towards less stats with simpler, more transparent rule mechanism.

Remember, your average D&D player, with their love of complex stat combinations and table, is not the same as the average video game player.

Simple is better.

 

Ironically, RPG video games used to be similar to D&D in terms of stat heaviness! Some, even recently!

 

There is probably a niche for high complexity. Just be aware it's a niche area.

It's kind of ironic that tabletop RPGs end up with more complex rule sets then video game RPGs.

 

Most RPGs with lots of player stats tend to have most of them derived from a core set anyway e.g. Acrobatics is based on a formula using strength & dexterity values. In a game system these can be displayed if they mean anything to the player or they can just be done in game as the player attempts to do something that fits the need to have that value calculated.

 

I used to think the same way. I would always create these elaborate games inside my head, but then things like Thomas was Alone and Dive Kick wind up being very successful games. So I've really had to take a long look and finally come up with something using a much simpler mechanic with some good depth to it.

Now, you theoretically could have 100 stats and the game would work well IF those stats were intuitive.
A brand new player will intuitively understand what strength does.
A brand new player isn't going to understand the difference between Constitution and Fortitude or the differences between Dexterity and Swift Handedness.

I haven't even seen your game and already I'm confused.
The other problem with stats like that, is that they're front loaded immediately, unlike other mechanics which can be gradually introduced to the player as they become comfortable with the game. In other words, it's a lot to take in at once.

I get that you're going for complex, just know that it'll make designing and balancing the game all the harder on you.
Best of luck though.

 

I wonder. The Advanced Fighting Fantasy system that I used to play as a kid allowed you to gradually introduce stats to new characters. Characters would start off with Skill, Stamina and Luck. A quick explanation was all it took to get them used to that. Every check in the game was done against skill.

However as the characters played and levelled up, new skills were added. A player that spent their time with weapons had a sword skill added. That skill was used in place of the base skill for sword checks. Same for magic or priest craft or bow or lock picking or baking.

Skyrim was kind of similar. All players started with no skills. Skills you naturally used build up. Skills you didn't use could generally be ignored, even for the entire game.

 

My main suggestion to you is by looking through I can see you love pen and paper RPG's.

It is always good to have influences when creating a game, but I would suggest that you keep it simple. Think who you want to play your game when it is made, if you only want a small group of hardcore D & D players then keep it up. But if you want to appeal to a larger market, I would suggest that you simplify.

When it comes to Game Design, I have a prossess that always focuses on game play (the main part of game design if you ask me), does this complex stats systems enhance your gameplay? Will this system work will with other systems in your game?

 

As of now I have scrapped focuses and I'm just going to keep the base 6 attributes plus luck and the 4 character mentalities. I will have to come up with skills, but I liked what Skyrim did. I never thought about 3D RPGs while planning this, but now I feel like I'll take a page from Bethesda and attempt to change some things. Instead of SPECIAL I think I'll keep SVACIW and add Charisma. Thank you all!

 

@Lamprey - one last thing.

You enjoy tabletop RPGs, yes? I've actually got an idea - create a cut-down, tabletop prototype of your game system. This will help you playtest it without creating any digital assets. Also, you enjoy table-top RPGing, so it'll make the process more enjoyable.

 

Pure genius. I have no idea how to make a table-RPG, though. Oh well. I'm going to have to make the prototype in Unity, as it's already started.

 

It's not any different than D&D.

You create your game rules, on paper. You write up tables on monsters, traps, treasures, that sort of thing. You lay down grids with pieces. In essence, it's like DMing your own D&D game with very very very homebrew rules.

 

the rules you write out for the paper prototype lets you give them to others to play while you watch. It will let you know whether they are clear & easy to understand as well as fun to play. They are also a form of pseudo code that will help you code the core interactions between elements.

 

I love me some stat-heavy RPGs. One of my childhood faves:

 

Cripes, that's a lot of stats.

 

Less is more..

I would keep the amount of attributes to a minimum and add 'sub attributes' to them for the skills you want to have in the game. For example 'armor penetration' could be a sub attribute for strength and acrobatics to agility. Maybe you could do one of those Skyrim skill trees where your attributes are divided and branch out in sub attributes.