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RMB

Discussion in 'Game Design' started by zombiegorilla, Nov 23, 2014.

  1. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    @Asvarduil
    Mac users have had RMB for well over a decade. In fact, more than likely the game you are developing won't even run on a Mac prior to that. So not something you need to take into consideration in terms of UX. Moreover, Farmville 2 heavily uses RMB for interaction. When FV2 adopted right-click, it pretty much opened it up as an acceptable interaction for everyone. (given the massive userbase and the general tech level of that target audience.)

    RMB isn't always a natural interaction from a UX standpoint in games (I still struggle with in LoL), but you don't need to rule it out on the basis that people don't have it or don't know how to use. If it is an interaction that works for your game, go for it.
    ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2014
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  2. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    I'm surprised every time I hear someone cite the lack of RMB on Macs as a design consideration. It actually supports something I've often said - if you're going to design for something then you should first use that thing.

    I went and got an iPhone for the sole reason that I knew I'd later be developing software for it. I later got an iPad for the same reason. Same goes for my Android tablet. And, in fact, my first game console - prior to deciding I'd eventually like to get games published on them I was perfectly happy playing on my PC.

    If you're not familiar with using a given platform then, at best, any designs you make for that platform are founded on guesswork.
     
  3. Gigiwoo

    Gigiwoo

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    I was confused at first. So, for the record:
    RMB == Right Mouse Button.

    Gigi :)
     
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  4. AndrewGrayGames

    AndrewGrayGames

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    1: I accept the correction, thank you.

    2: ...For that matter, I noted that I hadn't had an experience with a Mac for years. So, thank you for the enlightenment.

    3: @angrypenguin's advice and ideas were sound, specifically...

    I'll use that as one my rules of thumb going forward.

    4: It seems I really pushed @zombiegorilla's buttons without meaning to. That said, I would like to submit that a more fitting and better-dignified way would have been to PM me and say, "dude, you were speaking out of your posterior orifice", while still making the general topic about RMB and Macs, as it could be of great value to other people. This way you don't, you know, look like a complete douchebag*

    *: Actually, not calling out anyone would have made it a perfectly fitting topic in the first place, so there would be no douchebaggery against you, period. I lament that that was not the road that was taken, but, hey. To each their own. I call you out for not choosing to respond better.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2014
  5. GarBenjamin

    GarBenjamin

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    I don't think anything personal was meant by it. We all reply to people on the forums and quote the piece we are replying to just in the nature of replying. It seems like that is all that happened here. Just what I got from reading it. I have been known to be wrong once or twice per decade.
     
  6. Teila

    Teila

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    Ha! I thought it was something really really complex! :) Thanks, Gigi.
     
  7. RJ-MacReady

    RJ-MacReady

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    How did a thread begin with a quote that I can't find anywhere on the forums.
     
  8. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    Wow. Sorry, that was 100% not the intent, I apologize if you felt it was the case. I started a new thread because it is a valuable point and the the other thread was closed. I didn't PM, because it was not intended as personal. Despite @angrypenguin 's wise and valuable advice, I myself don't practice it. (and don't have a modern Android and haven't touched Winders in years.) I wasn't chastising or making any disparaging about you not having or using a Mac, just trying to provide the info you said you didn't have. Nothing negative, mate. All is good.

    Also was a good place to surface the FV2 stuff. I did web games for quite a while and Flash supported RMB for several years, but I was never able to convince teammates/producers that it was "safe" to use RMB where warranted. Overnight that was argument was put to bed when FV2 leveraged. It's a good bit of information for everyone.

    Fair enough, re-reading I realized it was a little terse, I added a missing word (need) and a winky. I hope that makes my post come off a bit less douchy. ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2014
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  9. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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  10. AndrewGrayGames

    AndrewGrayGames

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    No worries bro. You all had valid points/best practices. It was a good bit of advice.
     
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  11. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    For what it's worth, @zombiegorilla, I didn't think it came over as "douchey" at all. I figured it was a valid topic split, and that you'd only tagged @Asvarduil to make sure he was aware you'd moved the tangent to a new thread.

    I think it's actually something that we (or the mod crew) should be doing more often. There are loads of great conversations around here that are buried inside other, unrelated conversations that will probably never come up for common searches of the relevant topics.
     
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  12. TonyLi

    TonyLi

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    I made this assumption in early versions of the Dialogue System's built-in editor. I quickly received requests from Mac users without right mouse buttons (and some who I assume were just unused to using RMB) to add the standard Mac Ctrl-Click alternative, and this was in 2014. Just a data point to keep in mind.
     
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  13. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    I was speaking specifically about games, where you have a much smaller set of controls. Unity (editor) usurps the typical inputs a bit (hence the need for ctrl+click).

    Though I am surprised. To run Unity, you need an intel Mac. Mac's were exclusively Intel from 2006 forward. Macs shipped with exclusively with multi-button mice since 2005 (or no mice at all with some desktops, but Apple was no longer selling single button mice separately either at that point). Meaning that any Mac sold that can run Unity either came with a multi-button mouse, or any mouse you bought separately would have been multi-button. A user using Unity would have to have intentionally bought and/or used a several year old mouse to only have one button. Today, that would have to be a 10 year old mouse at least. (or as you said, unaware on how to use their computer).

    Regardless, kudos to you for responding the way you did and supporting your users. Definitely a more positive than I would have done. I would have told them go out buy a damn $10 mouse or learn use their computer. Guess it is probably a good thing I don't sell assets. ;)
     
  14. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    Actually. @zimbiegorilla, "without right mouse buttons" doesn't mean "had a one-button mouse". If you're using a trackpad I can totally understand the preference towards a combo-button rather than the various methods some vendors use to provide a right-click equivalent.

    But also, Apple's minimalist style has pretty effectively hidden the right mouse button for ages. We'd had a Mac in the office for months before a non-Mac-user looking over my shoulder asked how I'd right clicked something. It used to be well known that there was no RMB on a Mac. That changed, but it wasn't advertised, and Apple don't make it clear by looking at their hardware. Even though it's right in front of them people have no reason to check and go right ahead assuming it hasn't changed.
     
  15. Eric5h5

    Eric5h5

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    There was always RMB on Macs, even on the old, pre-OS X ones (or at least since System 7, which is the earliest I've used); it's just that Apple themselves only included one-button mice by default. You could plug a two (or more) button mouse in, and it would work without hacks.

    --Eric
     
  16. RJ-MacReady

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    So all those years of suffering with holding down -> <- this just to copy and paste text in school was all unnecessary? Even the mouse that came with my mac doesn't look like it has a right-click feature, so I assumed it didn't. One day I just forgot and pressed the right side of the face of it and bam, it was right-clicking. Look at it:

    mm.jpg

    It doesn't even seem to hint at the possibility that it has right-click capability. Sometimes, in fact, when right-clicking I find myself accidentally left-clicking at the same time. It's just one piece of plastic that deforms and depresses an underlying switch... It's got to be the worst mouse design I've ever seen. I rummaged through old boxes in order to find an old USB mouse and manually installed the drivers because I couldn't stand it.

    But to think that even on those old blueberry iMac's I could have just brought a plug n' play mouse to class.

    Kyle-icon.png
    I've learned something today.
     
  17. Eric5h5

    Eric5h5

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    I think anyone remotely serious about using a mouse with a Mac doesn't look at the included mouse, but puts it in a drawer and plugs in a real mouse. (Though to be fair, I'm not sure if I've had any kind of computer where the default mouse was actually that good.)

    --Eric
     
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  18. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    To be fair, it also doesn't look like it has a left click. There's no explicit display of anything pressable except for that little ball thing. I love the minimalism and simplicity of (some) Apple design, but lets just say I don't think their mouse is their best work.

    I've always assumed it's some kind of vanity issue. Mac wants to seem like it's simpler and more friendly than everything else, so when they added a second button (like everyone else) had they kind of tried to slide it in there quietly and not talk about how they'd adopted the same solution as everyone else because, yeah, in some cases it's actually a better solution.

    Having said that, there's also the possibility that it was deliberately done to force software designers not to assume it was there, thus making them think more about their users. Sure, they can plug in a two button mouse if needed, but many of them don't, so that needs to be considered... until the point where even though it's no longer true it's just a part of the culture, and many people don't even know about it even though it's now been there for ages.