Retro VGS - A Niche Throwback?

I have all sorts, original ZX speccies with Wafer drive, N64, Mega CD with X32, Gamecube, Dreamcast and they still get use.. Sometimes it's just awesome to sit down and play a game on a retro console and in most cases I could of course just play them on PC (or even mobile) although it's just not the same IMO.

But all of these are tried and true systems with spades of awesome content for them, a new system with whatever is going to be put on top of it? I can only see very limited appeal.

Not to say there won't be interest somewhere.

 

Yes, I would. You're talking to someone who makes obscure sex games, because that is the way I choose to express myself. I assure you the audience is quite small compared to other genres.

 

As a technical challenge, I really want to try now

It would probably need some custom hardware, and be a digital installation...hmmm. Dangit, now I'm really curious >.>

 

I'm not sure your audience stays small after playing with it.

 

Have you tried the old radio plays? Orson Wells was The Shadow in the early ones, quite a lot are on the web for free download. The old ads are great as well (white walled tyres, blue coal, the shadow getting an award from the police department for helping to fight crime etc)

 

Ba dum tssss.....

 

This hits the nail on the head. Over the past month or so I've been increasingly swapping time spent on this forum to other forums for this reason. It really is one of those things where you either get it... really get it.. or you don't so you knock it. lol

 

I have not. I rarely have time to listen to audio besides music when I'm working. When I used to drive to work (I work at home) I'd listen to a ton of audio books, radio plays, etc. but that was ages ago. Hard to find time to do that anymore and I can't concentrate on coding if I'm paying attention to a story.

 

If you can, give them a go. Most are 20-30mins. Listening to the sound effects with the slight stage echo etc is worth it. Surprising how rich the 'pictures' in your head are considering the way they did them.

 

Care to link any of the ones dedicated to game development?

 

No I won't post them here because a lot of people on forums get whiney about that kind of thing. I'll gladly message them to you when I get back home later though.

 

End of the day it's all just mindless chatter that passes the time whilst dev'ing, some will buy it / some won't.. Everyone will forget about it and the world will keep spinning.

 

That is for sure. All of this stuff making games and so forth is not addressing the big issues in the world. Games could (and in some rare occasions are made for a higher purpose) be used to "send a message" raise awareness of issues and otherwise become a platform for change but at the end of the day it basically all comes down to pressing buttons, sliding rectangles around the screen or blowing things up.

On a personal level though it definitely brings us a lot of satisfaction whether you are one who likes to work in the oceans of modern Indie games or in the ponds of old school Indie games.

 

There ya go. Just sent over a list of 20 forums I like and some other stuff.

Getting this back on track to the OP... have you ever dabbled in any programming on any of those modern home brew systems such as Caanoo?

 

Thanks for the list! That's quite a bit more than I was anticipating.

I've considered trying one, but I was worried about picking a device that was losing popularity or was difficult to develop for.

 

ontopic:

I will buy this. Z80 era was golden for me, Atari and C64 also, then DOS+XTG was a big step forward, everything was a dream. I love today tech too, but nostalgia never dies

 

A little bump/update on this one. The team behind it is going to be launching their Indiegogo crowd-funding campaign tomorrow morning. I believe the current expectation for system contributor awards is $300 for a standard black unit (limited), and $350 for a custom color unit. This assumes that you want to contribute enough to have your own early-production run unit shipped to you. Further details and specifics should be available tomorrow morning on the Indiegogo campaign page.

This general pricing is just about in line with what I expected. I would also expect a lot of general consumers to be gun-shy on it. As I already anticipated, this system won't be for mass-market appeal. It will be interesting to see how the crowd-funding campaign does. A lot of people seem to be a little miffed that the team went with Indiegogo over Kickstarter.

 

Yeah I am looking forward to it. There is definitely some buzz going on in the retro gaming communities.

One cool thing about the huge Indie Game thing going on is that more games are even being created for the C64, Spectrum, Amiga, Atari VCS, NES and so forth. Of course, nowhere near the amount being spammed out for modern hardware due to the developers actually needing to be skilled in Assembler and working close to the metal but still the new content seems to have helped the retro gaming communities to grow a bit.

Anyway, something like this RetroVGS is cool because it could be the thing that consolidates the retro community. One piece of hardware that could be used by everyone. The odds of that happening in reality are slim of course but still it has a chance.

It looks cool and I will definitely support it because as much as like modern games I like retro games just as much (okay probably much more). If the RetroVGS sells reasonably well I'll be tempted to move to that system for game development. The skill requirements will serve as a barrier to entry which should help to keep the machine from being flooded. The retro focus not catering to modern FPS and so forth may serve as another barrier to entry. I have high hopes for it!

 

Well, a big dam that should prevent flooding will be the simple fact of having to properly complete a game before publishing. This thing isn't going to have any option for downloading patches. Any game you put out for it will have to be as close to done as done gets. A big reason we're seeing so much flooding on Steam is that game's don't have to be finished before release. Thanks to early access, the development process can be a moving target. There are many benefits to this, but it also means exposure to games in a much more raw state. (as well as a lot of embarrassing tech-demos posing as games)

Not many casual developers will target the Retro VGS. While it will be a relatively open platform, it isn't going to be a get-rich-quick platform. You have to drop serious money to get physical cartridges. That makes for a much more substantial initial payout compared to digital distribution.

One of the advantages of a platform like the Retro VGS will be consistency. By locking it down and continuing to support it over a protracted period of time, developers who do play around with it will be able to build up a wealth of knowledge and code over the years. (as often happened with older platforms like the NES)

 

At least until someone develops a cartridge that allows you to plug in data from non-permanent sources.

 

Very good point about the increased cost and the fact that people cannot just throw out junk stuff then build it up and patch the holes after people have already bought into it. That should definitely cut down on the spam.

Yeah that hardware consistency is one of the things that made the computers of old fun to develop for. The hardware wasn't upgradable. In a couple cases you could upgrade cpu and RAM but usually not and the graphics and audio hardware was just locked. So the programmers over time learned it inside and out becoming experts on hardware and could do things with it the original engineers never even considered possible. Cool stuff for sure.

Of course, a person should be developing like this anyway continually building tech ever expanding through each project. That is why I am focusing so much right now on finding which development framework I want to use. Then I can focus on building my own library and framework over time as I make games starting with simple stuff and expanding scope as my tech assets increase.

Are you gonna get a RetroVGS?

 

That not upgradable feature is why I didn't game on PC but instead on console. If I bought a game I knew it worked. That feature is also why I haven't bought the newest generation of console, it relies on Internet to provide 'added' content but really it's to allow the release of broken products (or ones that had the scope seriously reined in from what was originally advertised so it would work on release) that can then be patched or have the 'extra' content released on a user pays system. That & our expensive, unreliable internet here in Australia. Why should I pay a premium for a console, the 'Australia' tax for games (even if they are downloadable we pay more than elsewhere for the same product), Internet fee, the fee for Xbox live or something else.........?
I hope this takes off & can be supported down here, I'd definitely consider getting one.

 

You mean like Action 52?

 

Yep, but that type of mistake costs people a lot ($ & rep) so even if they survived that release they would need to be exceptional next time or die trying. Also, given the ratio of functional:non-functional then to now I think it was safer buying a game back then than it is now.

 

I just saw this thread and this looks awesome, seriously considering it. Maybe limiting myself to cartridge would kill my affinity for scope creep. Even if I didn't develop on it it looks like something I'd be happy to have in my media cabinet as a unique collectors item.

 

What kind of crazy person would do that? The majority of games for the Retro VGS are going to be non-exclusives, probably for the first few years of its existence at least. Most gamers are not going to need one to play their favourite games. Why on earth would anyone buy the system, and then buy some manner of adapter-cartridge, just so that they could pirate games? The team behind the Retro VGS isn't going to be selling the hardware at a loss. It's no skin off of their backs if such an adapter came to be. They would already have their profit.

But really, why would anyone buy the Retro VGS for software piracy? With so many other devices available on the market now that can easily perform the same functions, there's no point in getting a Retro VGS for that. Almost anything else would be better, and make the piracy infinitely easier. (and cheaper) I don't really see something like this being an issue.

 

Development tools. Additionally, despite their FAQ's statement about lifespan, cartridge contacts do not last forever.

Yes, because such a tool would only be useful for piracy...

 

They've already announced that one of the USB ports on the back of the device is for pairing the system with a PC, or with another Retro VGS. That USB port will most likely be used for developmental testing purposes. (running in-development software on the system from a PC) An extraneous cartridge with re-writeable storage would only be needed for fringe testing cases. Especially since such a cartridge would be different from the final carts anyway, negating much of the testing utility.

And with the system not likely to see a large install base in its early years, such a cart as you describe would only be useful for pirates, and developers who want to distribute their games for the system digitally. Of course, any such developer would not have a default digital store-front. They would have to roll their own, or sell the software directly off their site. And it would be impossible for them to utilize any copy-protection or DRM, as the Retro VGS is not designed to connect to the internet by default. So really, such a device would primarily be used for piracy of games exclusive to the Retro VGS.

You're right, they don't. Although they are known to last in excess of thirty or forty years. All of the NES games in my collection are in fine working order. Often with cartridge-based systems, it is not the cartridge contacts that degrade first, but the pins on the system's cartridge slot. And the selection of metal for the cartridge contacts can significantly extend their expected utility.

 

Awesome. I must have missed that.

 

The Indiegogo Campaign Is Up

It's going to be interesting to see how this goes. I'm still not certain whether or not I will jump in on the campaign. We'll see.

 

I funded it, they have a $2m goal so I figure if it gets that much there is enough interest in it for me.

 

I just "ordered" my RetroVGS!

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/retro-vgs/x/12166008#/funders

They really should have changed them around because personally I think the black model is the sweetest of them all. They should have swapped that out and put the bronze on the first tier. lol

 

Just ordered mine as well. I ordered the coloured ones but didn't see where I get to actually pick the colour (will probably go for purple just so it stands out against the other media stuff)

 

Purple, eh? That would definitely stand out over here. Black ties in well with the PS2, PS3, Sega Genesis and not to mention the tv!

Yeah I see you on the list with the higher tier right after me.

It's off to a decent start I think. The past hour or so they seem to be averaging around $50 per minute (after subtracting for cost of shipping). Of course out of the gate they were doing around $100 per minute as all of the people who are even more into this than we are jumped in asap.

 

Yeah I agree, I went with the black as well...

 

I'm hoping purple will placate my wife when it turns up & she finds out what I just bought.

I'm also looking forward to that engine the guy in the forum is trying to put together since I don't know any of those languages.

 

The more I go over what is going to be incorporated into the system, the less likely I think it will be for Unity to support the Retro VGS as a build target. While I certainly think it is possible, I'm not sure it would be worth the trouble for the Unity development team. The fixed-spec of such a device would be difficult for the Unity devs to support in the future. You can't incorporate support for newer engine elements while still supporting such a dated hardware spec.

It is likely that any community that the Retro VGS manages to build around itself will be the primary source for engine solutions. I'm still interested in the device, but my hopes for being able to use Unity for it are dwindling.

 

I think it is a long shot that it will actually be funded. Going with IndieGoGo instead of KS I think really put a lot of people off who had planned on supporting it. Charging $300+ when people were expecting around $225 put a load more off to it. I'd like to see it become a reality just saying they could have done the campaign better.

Personally, I am hoping it needs to be programmed in Assembly language or possibly C/C++. And ideally graphics and audio is done through hardware low level routines possibly even with "pokes". We have more than enough hardware out there accessible to high level dev kits.

 

If the information I've heard up to this point is to be believed, then your wish is already granted. That is exactly the direction they want to take from the get-go. Lowest of low-level access is going to be available from the beginning. You would be able to play around as close to the metal as close gets. Any higher-level programming languages and APIs are going to come after the fact. Initially it's all pretty much going to be ground-zero for low-level coding.

I've never gotten into the really low-level stuff and manual memory management, so that side of things isn't quite as appealing to me. I could get into it over time, but not initially. I want to see the Retro VGS happen because I like the idea of a retro-style system remaining as a viable development option for decades on end. There are real advantages to having a permanently fixed hardware spec.

 

I agree with having a modern retro focused system available. That is the main reason I funded it. I just would greatly prefer it not be flooded like the other things are. You know like the 174,000 games that were developed in Unity and released this summer. That is the kind of thing we don't need to deal with on the RetroVGS. Of course the console price and the cartridge price will definitely thin that out.

 

@GarBenjamin , do any of the 2d languages/engines on your blog make games that can be used on this console? Unity is the first engine I've focused on learning but if there is anything else out there that would help with this console (until unity decides if they will support it) I'd be interested in checking them out to see if it's beyond my limited ability.

 

There is nothing yet because it doesn't even exist yet. However I am sure libraries will be made for it over time. All devs will do that and eventually something will likely float to the general public. I wouldn't expect something like GMS or Unity though. Just higher level libraries.

 

On the flooded market thing I touched on in my post above I read a cool article today where apparently Unity recognized the problem of discoverability and is committed to doing something about it. So I give them credit for that. Don't know what all they plan to do but still it is awesome they are going to do what they can.

 

Unfortunately I would say you are probably right. They aren't exactly asking for chump change, so it is a pretty big stretch for such a niche market.

I wouldn't mind programming in assembly or C for this, no way it will be popular enough for someone to make an engine. Of course never say never but seems pretty safe to say in this case.

 

Actually, it seems that at least one person is already working on an engine for it. But that said, I suspect you might be right about the chances of the campaign. While I appreciate that their goals are a bit more realistic (manufacturing requires up-front cash) they are still asking for quite a bit from the retro gaming community. It would help considerably if the campaign got a bit more attention. A few news stories on some of the major gaming blogs would be a good place to start.

At the current pace, it would probably be a close thing at best. And as you said, it is a very niche market.

 

Well I think it is safe to say it's dead. I was hanging in there until I just learned about one of the things that had ticked off many of the people who were previously planning to support it. Apparently one of several things that changed shortly before the campaign went live. It shows a real lack of understanding of retro gamers so will be canceling my contribution as well. If I had known it beforehand I would not have contributed.

Anyway, this weekend I will turn my eyes back to that Neo Geo X system I was considering before hearing about Retro VGS! That one still looks cool.

 

What was it?

 

Yeah, I am totally confused, when did RetroVGS become uncool I'm still pledged although it looks like funding died after first day.

 

annnnddddddd, it's dead. They are cancelling the indiegogo early to "return soon" with some alternate version. I think I'm done with this though.

 

Yeah and I told them about the issue that "killed it" for me and the rep said "I totally hear you on this! I agree with what you're saying here Gar. We're in the process of re-evaluating our tool chain." So if they come back with a true retro mindset combined with the $200 (max) console I will definitely grab it. I'd like to see something like this take off.