Search Unity

  1. We are migrating the Unity Forums to Unity Discussions. On July 12, the Unity Forums will become read-only. On July 15, Unity Discussions will become read-only until July 18, when the new design and the migrated forum contents will go live. Read our full announcement for more information and let us know if you have any questions.

'Rent' to Use

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by AvGaz, Aug 4, 2016.

?

Who wants to 'rent' software?

Poll closed Sep 1, 2016.
  1. I do

    8.3%
  2. I don't

    52.8%
  3. I don't care

    38.9%
  1. AvGaz

    AvGaz

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2012
    Posts:
    82
    Please note I hate that you can't buy a version outright - I don't want to rent software, certainly not renting various programs from greedy companies who want to tie in customers to subscription services.

    So far we'd have to rent Photoshop, Maya, and now Unity.... rent, rent, rent.... add on life's usual payments, it's all disappointing.

    Please go back to selling software, not the rent to use format, it appears greedy - eventually someone will come along and sell a program in competition.
     
    CaoMengde777 and Shushustorm like this.
  2. Ostwind

    Ostwind

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2011
    Posts:
    2,804
    You can pay 2 years upfront and own the version you have in the moment 2 years have gone. Nearly the same thing and cost as the old perpetual system was at least if you kept updating.

    I think most companies are moving to subscriptions because it allows faster development, reduces piracy, etc.

    edit: you forgot the "I don't care" option from the poll
     
    Gekigengar and Kiwasi like this.
  3. N1warhead

    N1warhead

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2014
    Posts:
    3,887
    Unity Indie = Free (full featured)
    Paint.Net = Free (Really decent photo app)
    Blender = Free (Best free 3d modeling app).

    So quit having excuses.
     
    Socrates, Gekigengar and Kiwasi like this.
  4. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2013
    Posts:
    16,860
    Open your eyes. Their are competing engines that don't use the subscription model.

    I personally don't mind the new model. But if you don't like it, vote with your wallet and change engine.
     
    N1warhead likes this.
  5. N1warhead

    N1warhead

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2014
    Posts:
    3,887
    I personally don't have a problem with subbing either. It's certainly easier to pay a small chunk of change every month than paying one major chunk of change, and at least if you don't like it, you can cancel the sub.
     
    Gekigengar likes this.
  6. drewradley

    drewradley

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2010
    Posts:
    3,063
    Yeah, but then you aren't stuck with the version you "bought" meaning no upgrades? I don't mean upgrade from 5 to 6. That I never expected, but I thought that upgrades from 5.5 to 5.6 (for instance) aren't included when you do that. (Yes, I know it's not ver 5.5 yet.)
     
  7. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2013
    Posts:
    16,860
    Which was exactly the problem. In order to get money, Unity was incenivised to do major releases. That were features held back or released early, just to make a major release.

    This way Unity is rewarded for having the best engine. Not for having the best releases.
     
    Perrydotto and Ostwind like this.
  8. AvGaz

    AvGaz

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2012
    Posts:
    82
    I like to know where I am, I can save and buy a software product, but having 50 rental agreements each month for everything is too much. What next, rent cars so we're forced to have a new car every 2 years? ...rent our house, etc. etc.

    And as far as best engine - with a subscription you could argue they have no motivation for even releases now as everyone is paying per month anyway, with no effort needed on a major new product every say 2 years inorder to sell something of value.
     
  9. Ostwind

    Ostwind

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2011
    Posts:
    2,804
    Yes, they however said you will get some or all of the patch releases for free but that's it.
     
  10. Ostwind

    Ostwind

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2011
    Posts:
    2,804
    So how did you manage before the change? you had to pay upfront and you still can. You can always go with the free version if money is the problem.
     
  11. AvGaz

    AvGaz

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2012
    Posts:
    82
    I own the perpetual version, as far as I see you don't have the option (going forward) to purchase upfront, and own indefinitely what you've 'bought'.
     
  12. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2013
    Posts:
    16,860
    Most people do 'rent' cars if the want a new one. Very few people buy new vehicles with cash. Houses are the same. You either rent a house, or take out a mortgage with a bank, where you sign up for regular payments for a long time.

    Honestly I don't see what the fuss is. You can save up and pay for a two year subscription in advance. This puts you in exactly the same situation as the old perpetual lisence.
     
  13. AvGaz

    AvGaz

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2012
    Posts:
    82
    We can agree to differ, I don't want to rent. It's ok to have the option though, and I was happy with that, while choosing to buy - if it's the same cost as you suggest, they can go back to that option.

    I'm stating my opinion here as a user, I don't want to look and see multiple software rentals on my finances, it's not a good direction for the industry.
     
  14. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2013
    Posts:
    16,860
    Costs went up for everybody except mobile devs.
     
  15. Ostwind

    Ostwind

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2011
    Posts:
    2,804
    AvGaz likes this.
  16. AvGaz

    AvGaz

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2012
    Posts:
    82
    Let's hope they keep the option. I stand by my opinion as to the industry direction to rent only software, unless we all want a 500 credit score.
     
  17. drewradley

    drewradley

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2010
    Posts:
    3,063
    Oh. Last I heard they weren't going to include patches. Or I could just be remembering wrong.
     
  18. neginfinity

    neginfinity

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2013
    Posts:
    13,669
    You know, you almost never own software. Even if you pay once (and not pay via subscription), you only only receive a right to use it, not the software itself.
     
    Ryiah and Kiwasi like this.
  19. AvGaz

    AvGaz

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2012
    Posts:
    82
    Thanks, my point is multiple renting agreements isn't good, it'll wreck credit, and if you stop paying it means you don't own anything, even a license to continue to use.

    If Unity continue to offer a pay to buy software (albeit through 24 month lease), I'd be okay with that, but I wonder if that'll be time limited until we're all renters.
     
  20. Ryiah

    Ryiah

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    Posts:
    21,937
    If you have no self-control when it comes to making agreements then your only option is to choose another engine or pay the entire subscription in advance. People who cannot control their own spending are simply not Unity's problem.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2016
    Acissathar and Kiwasi like this.
  21. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2013
    Posts:
    16,860
    How will it affect credit at all? Credit would only be affected if you default on payments.

    You keep using the word 'renters' like its a bad thing. There is nothing inherently bad about renting. 'Being a renter is bad' is just some myth you've concocted.
     
    Ryiah likes this.
  22. hippocoder

    hippocoder

    Digital Ape

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2010
    Posts:
    29,725
    Regarding subscriptions, these do make sense when it comes to engines since an engine which isn't up to date tends to basically stop working, or fall behind.

    Art packages are different though, they won't generally stop working, so having a sub for photoshop pretty much only benefits adobe. Rental (I think you mean subscription) for content creation packages is a bit of an overall raw deal in the long term.
     
    Kiwasi, MV10 and Ryiah like this.
  23. MV10

    MV10

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2015
    Posts:
    1,889
    Wait until they switch to a free-to-play model:
    "Bake Lighting is $1.00, click here to enter credit card information."
     
    Shushustorm likes this.
  24. AvGaz

    AvGaz

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2012
    Posts:
    82
    You guys are great, good debate - although sounds like you don't mind taking on a monthly payment, forever.

    Reference the credit affect, if you have 10 software scheduled payments, you're not showing you have as much available credit left and therefore I could see an affect on credit score. If this was the only software to rent, no big deal, but they're all getting into the rental business.
     
  25. AvGaz

    AvGaz

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2012
    Posts:
    82
    Note, most people in the poll don't want to rent software, despite the more vocal comments.
     
  26. Ryiah

    Ryiah

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    Posts:
    21,937
    You know what they say about statistics and polls on the Internet. :p
     
    Gekigengar likes this.
  27. MV10

    MV10

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2015
    Posts:
    1,889
    That would only be true if they actually report your subscription to a credit reporting agency, which seems highly unlikely.
     
  28. drewradley

    drewradley

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2010
    Posts:
    3,063
    Too many monthly payments and your credit actually goes down, not up. It says you're the kind of person who lives on credit. Heck, just having your credit checked too many times lowers it. I froze my credit so I can't open anything new and can't be identity thefted. That lowered my rating a few points.

    They know. They know more about your spending than you do! There is no way for them to not know unless you sent in cash.
     
    AvGaz likes this.
  29. N1warhead

    N1warhead

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2014
    Posts:
    3,887
    Man you should cut your losses and choose something, otherwise use the free stuff... This is becoming a one sided debate on each side.. 99% of everyone is fine with payments, and you appear to be the only one who wants a one-time-pay-forever type thing, which I can't say is wrong, it would be nice if there was at least an option.

    But at least count your self lucky you don't have to spend what was Unreal back in the day, like 150 grand++?
     
  30. AvGaz

    AvGaz

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2012
    Posts:
    82
    As long as they keep the pro tier, with the option for ownership after 24 months, I have no issue with anything. As long as it's not a transitional step. I just want to own something after paying $2800, which is what 24 months is approx.
     
  31. Ryiah

    Ryiah

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    Posts:
    21,937
    Yes. Six digits was very much the norm back then. Visual Studio was four digits. So happy we're past that point now.
     
    Perrydotto likes this.
  32. AvGaz

    AvGaz

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2012
    Posts:
    82
    And 41% of people don't want to rent, only 16% do (per the poll :) ... 99% of commenters clearly don't care about renting.
     
  33. Ryiah

    Ryiah

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    Posts:
    21,937
    And 100% of people have no choice because Unity says you're stuck with it. :p
     
    Kiwasi and AvGaz like this.
  34. Eric5h5

    Eric5h5

    Volunteer Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2006
    Posts:
    32,401
    87% of statistics are only 35% as accurate as they should be.

    --Eric
     
    Kiwasi, Gekigengar, AvGaz and 2 others like this.
  35. drewradley

    drewradley

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2010
    Posts:
    3,063
    I'm with them. I'm just not very vocal about it. I think Unity is doing a good thing by making "pro" more accessible. I just always use my tax refund for stuff like this and I'm not likely to manage to hold on to it to use it to make monthly payments! This year, I bought a new laptop. It's nice. It runs Unity 4.7 pro like a dream! :p

    Oh, and I don't blame Unity for my own lack of budget skills. Not their problem if I can't budget $35 a month. They're just not likely to get it from me any time soon.
     
    AvGaz likes this.
  36. N1warhead

    N1warhead

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2014
    Posts:
    3,887
    @drewradley : Oh no I mean if there was an option to outright buy it, I would love that option, but I wouldn't expect that option to come lightly as then they would loose all future revenue from quite a few people. I'd rather have a continuous flow of cash than a major lump sum to then in a few years be broke and not able to pay people any longer.

    But, it's like I tell people. Things could always be worse.
    As @Ryiah agreed with, Unreal and stuff was six digits back in the day. So luckily we are passed the time when you have to be an established company with a good cash flow to even afford these tools.

    That's why I don't really ever complain about anything, because things could always be worse. I'd rather spend 35 a month than 500++ a month (per seat).
     
  37. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

    Joined:
    May 20, 2010
    Posts:
    12,015
    I don't mind it, as long as the price is right.
     
  38. neginfinity

    neginfinity

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2013
    Posts:
    13,669
    I think a lot of people simply don't expect to reach revenue cap.

    It doesn't matter whether it is one-time purchase or a subscription, when you are going to use free version.
     
    Kiwasi likes this.
  39. Ryiah

    Ryiah

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    Posts:
    21,937
    You know I wonder how many people are voting about subscriptions in general rather than just Unity having one.
     
    MV10 likes this.
  40. drewradley

    drewradley

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2010
    Posts:
    3,063
    I voted specifically about Unity. I "own" all my software. Sure, my Adobe CS2 is quite old, but photoshop still works for my needs.
     
  41. tedthebug

    tedthebug

    Joined:
    May 6, 2015
    Posts:
    2,570
    People complain about the rent model but always ignore iTunes. Even though the button in iTunes says buy you don't actually own the songs, I.e. You can't give them to other people, resell them, bequeath them to people when you die etc. You are effectively leasing the songs instead. Why is it accepted & ok for Apple but not for any other business?
     
  42. Eric5h5

    Eric5h5

    Volunteer Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2006
    Posts:
    32,401
    That's nothing specific to Apple, that's all digital everything ever, and people don't generally complain about it. There's a big difference between "you stop pay, we take it away" and owning something permanently (whether you can transfer it to someone else or not).

    --Eric
     
    AvGaz and Ryiah like this.
  43. Billy4184

    Billy4184

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Posts:
    6,068
    I don't mind either way, depending on the price - most software I have doesn't get used all that much so it's great to have a way to access it for a while without having to pay hundreds of dollars to own it. But my ideal model is a rent-to-own where you rent it until you've paid off the total cost.
     
    AvGaz likes this.
  44. Acissathar

    Acissathar

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2011
    Posts:
    677
    You're not buying the song so much as you're buying a license for the song. If you were truly "buying" the song, then the first person to buy it could run after everyone else with Copyright Infringement suits.
     
  45. iamthwee

    iamthwee

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2015
    Posts:
    2,149

    This is what I'd do.

    Buy affinity designer outright, use blender, use unity free.

    Problem with renting/subscription solved!
     
    AvGaz and Shushustorm like this.
  46. Gekigengar

    Gekigengar

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2013
    Posts:
    748
    Bahahahah, that avatar sure got me!
    "Unreal Technologies" :p

    Anyways subscription model will help Unity grow in the long run.
    I like the fact that this will keep Unity constantly funded, and that means they can't go lazy with the updates. (Since they will lose subscribers).

    But IMO Unity have been really slow with the updates lately.

    Its baffling how few (Less than 5) man open source engines,
    and all those asset store content creators can create/fix what a huge team of engineers at UT can't do,
    in a blink of an eye. Remind me how big is UT again? (1,500 Employees)

    Look, even Banshee had nested prefab!, and more amazing features to come every 1 - 4 months!

    Well, its not like UT had a lot of problems right?
    If I put them down in a small list..
    1. Volumetric Light or This
    2. Decals (What engine nowadays doesn't have a solution for decals?)
    3. Nested Prefab
    4. Third Party Tools Workflow Integration
    5. Dynamic Pathfinding (Unity's Navmesh solution doesn't support procedural levels)
    6. Imposter LOD
    7. Better Text Mesh
    8. Better Font Engine
    9. Visual Programming
    10. Visual Shader Editor
    11. Frame Accurate 2D Collider & Animator Tool or This (This is seriously important for 2D)
    12. Collider Viewer (Currently in Roadmap)
    13. Cross-Platform Notification
    14. Dynamic Skinned Mesh Raycasting
    15. Physics Based Sound Trigger
    16. Industrial Quality Filmic Tonemapping
    17. A Good Terrain Editor
    18. Procedural Ragdoll Animator
    19. Boundary Tool
    20. Terrain Stitcher
    21. Player Prefs Viewer/Editor
    22. Procedural Building Builder
    23. Blend Modes
    24. Dynamic UI Scroller
    25. BSP/Mesh Level Design/Editor Tool
    26. Prefab Brush
    27. Editor Grid Tools (Unity pls)
    28. Cutscene/Sequencer (Currently in Roadmap)
    29. Screen Capture
    30. Accurate DPI emulation and aspect/resolution viewport (Currently in Roadmap)
    31. Temporal Anti-Aliasing (Currently in Roadmap)
    32. Better Input (Currently in Roadmap)
    33. Better Lightmap Baking
    34. Localization Solution
    35. Better Coroutines
    36. Geometric Instancing (Done in Unity 5.4.0)
    37. Mixed Mode Lighting Fix (Dynamic shadows on baked not working) New!
    Currently fixing/adding each of these takes UT about 3 to 6 months, and most of them are still within "Research", which probably will be done by next year.

    Assuming one subject is complete every 3 months, so 36 * 3 = 108 Months (9 Years)

    It will take about 9 years for Unity to actually support what other game engine had built-in. (Which by then, they would already had more features!)
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2016
  47. Andy-Touch

    Andy-Touch

    A Moon Shaped Bool Unity Legend

    Joined:
    May 5, 2014
    Posts:
    1,515
    Unity has almost 1000 employees; not all of which are programmers who type code into the engine (I'd guestimate... maybe half?)

    I don't work in the Product Management team but can give you a much-much-simplified version of Unity Engine feature development. It can be a lengthy process for many reasons:
    - The feature needs to be identified; what is its purpose? what does it solve? do people want it? how much of a priority is it?
    - The feature needs to be research; what do people expect of it? how does other software tackle it? what should it look like? how does it fit into the rest of Unity? which is the best R&D team at Unity to create the feature? do we need to hire people to create it? do we have the tools available?
    - The feature needs to be developed; how does it fit into existing Unity workflows? how is it's components structured? What do they do? How do they do it? Why do they do it? How is the API structured? Does it fit into the rest of Unity's API?
    - The feature needs to be tested; how is it used by our 3 demo teams? how is it used by our technical field teams (the team I am part of!)? what have they created with it? What are their thoughts on it? How do our pre-alpha external testers use it? What are their feedback? What about Alpha & Beta testers? What are their thoughts? How can we improve it? What about comments on the blogpost showing it off feature?
    - The feature needs to be iterated upon; how can the feedback be implemented? and it should it be implemented? if not, why? how do we make the feature better before release? and more straightforward to use? does the UX make sense?
    - The feature needs to be tested more: QA tests, User tests, making sure the output of the feature works across 23 platforms, make sure it is optimised as best as it possibly can be
    - The feature needs to be released: and be part of the rest of the engine. :)
    - The feature needs to be further iterated upon; what feedback do we have since the public release? How can we better the feature? what does it need? what didn't work, but we can improve?

    Im probably missing a thousand other questions and points that happen during a Unity feature's development cycle; but that gives you a rough idea. Its not as simple as just putting a bunch of people into a room and hashing together some skunkworks offshoot which is then casually merged into the main Unity Engine; if that was the case Unity would become bloatware of random hacked together stuff. Millions of people use Unity frequently to create all sorts of incredible 2D & 3D content for all ranges of platform, device and experience; we want features to be right when they are released. :)
     
    Perrydotto, Kiwasi and iamthwee like this.
  48. Andy-Touch

    Andy-Touch

    A Moon Shaped Bool Unity Legend

    Joined:
    May 5, 2014
    Posts:
    1,515
    Actually, we release an updated version of Unity pretty damn quickly: https://unity3d.com/get-unity/download/archive

    Oh, and the Patch Releases aswell! https://unity3d.com/unity/qa/patch-releases

    We tried to do the 'release a new Unity every 3 months' last year but a lot of feedback we received was that users wanted more stability with their tools rather than new features taking a priority. Hence, why we are releasing new 5.x versions when they are ready now. :)
     
    Kiwasi likes this.
  49. neginfinity

    neginfinity

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2013
    Posts:
    13,669
    ....

    I would like to know why I with a thousand employees mixed mode lighting remained broken for longer than a year and hasn't been fixed to this day.

    http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/when-is-mixed-mode-lighting-going-to-be-fixed.332250/
     
    Gekigengar likes this.
  50. N1warhead

    N1warhead

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2014
    Posts:
    3,887
    @Andy-Touch So when are you guys actually going to make this supposed classified Instant MMO Game Button I've been hearing about for years finally visible hahaha lol.