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Discussion in 'Assets and Asset Store' started by fholm, May 30, 2014.
When is Bolt going on sale again?
When will Bolt support Unity 5.x? http://forum.boltengine.com/viewtopic.php?t=1883&p=6800 shows that there is support for Unity 5.x but not through the Asset store? Or how does it work?
The problem for me with Photon is that it has a ccu limit. So even though I don't need their servers, I'm still limited by that silly ccu limit.
Bolt seems like the only 'real competitor' to Photon but there is no 5.x version in the Asset store .
Does it already support a master-server and lobby? The asset store says that they are "coming soon" but that was 10 months ago. http://forum.boltengine.com/viewtopic.php?t=1931&p=8861 also indicates that the developer may not be very active at the present time. Bolt isn't abandoned I hope?
@Napoleonite - you have old info.
Master server is created, called Zeus. Many people using it, even one in live production.
Bolt works just fine with Unity 5. After you buy it from asset store, you can use your invoice number to download the latest versions from the Bolt website. The Unity5 build is there, works like a charm. No issues that I know of and a lot of people are using it.
Zeus can be downloaded from the same place once you get your invoice number.
Hope that clears things up?
Great thanks . Yes that clears things up.
Hi fholm (and community!),
we're looking for a networking middle-ware to build our upcoming game titles on and Bolt looks pretty good feature-wise and also based on the reviews, support etc. So I'd really love to choose it, but before that, I'd like to ask a few questions, to hopefully eliminate some surprises later.
Since we hope our games will be played by tens of thousands (or better more) players daily, I'm a bit concerned (I have to be, while looking for a robust solution) about the reliability. We can expect players connecting from all parts of the world, with very variable latency, connection quality and all kinds of various devices (I mean PCs, iOS and Androids).
Another chapter could be hackers, DDoS attacks, and all these lovely things.
Please do you have experience with a real-life performance of Bolt in such scenario?
Also, I didn't find find a list of games built on Bolt, please can you share it?
Thank you very much and wish you all the best with Bolt development!
Hi, whenever I start my project (in Unity 5), open the assets tab, and go to make a new state, I get a blank window and this error keeps filling the debug log
EDIT: My mistake, I was using the asset store download, not the Unity 5 download!
Is there PS4,WIIU,X1 support yet?.
Hey Mr.Holm, I have a question regarding Bolt's flexibility!
Currently, my concerns with the Bolt Engine is that there's just so little documentation even still. The tutorials need rewriting bad for new customers to get a "feel" for the product, and a way to understand what exactly it can and cannot do.
My questions is: "Could Bolt be used as the networking solution for an MMO with a minimum of 1000 players per server concurrently aka: Everquest levels of population per server?"
Documentation on what needs to be done, and how to go about it, for MMO development is NOT 1:1 for normal game development like many seem to assume when someone asks about it. The same inventory system for a normal Singleplayer, or even normal Multiplayer, games is NOT usable by any stretch for an MMO (as everything becomes highly authoritative when it comes to server interaction).
So it makes it very difficult when working on something of even small-scale with zero documentation (or nothing but opinion pieces with zero code, just "how i'd go about it"). Then, when you're trying to lock down a network solution it just gets harder.
From what I've seen Bolt is easily usable for MMO development as you've already taken 70% of the work in terms of protocol work out of the way. The question becomes can Bolt be used in a cellular authoritative approach where you branch off tasks to different "helper" servers for each primary play server. For example, you have a login server that authenticates and then passes player connections off to the "baseServer" that then handles tracking of player information while it talks with a "zoneServer" and "cellManager" that talks with its own cluster of "cellServers" in order to create an open world game.
My initial guess, from what I've seen so far, is "Yes Bolt Engine can be used for this.", but I'm unsure of any caveats that you've already identified that I haven't seen yet?
Granted I still have the trouble of working out the Server Infrastructure on my own (since everyone and their brother refuse to help advance this side of the industry by talking about this important side of development), but I'd like to remove the unknown factor that is Bolt within my design !
I hope this made sense !
@TheBraxton Bolt current runs within Unity, and as such, Unity is the defining limitation to running an MMO. 1000 connections all sending data and back forth to a single Unity thread is going to crush it, in theory.
Bolt will implement a version that is not coupled with Unity in the future, and I had heard fholm figured out how to get it running without Unity already, but I cannot say/guarantee when it will be available. The tradeoff is that if you're outside of Unity, making authoritative movement would be more difficult, and/or using any of Unity Physics for anything, and probably more. Also, a client has one bolt connection, not many, it's a 1:1 relationship from the client-server perspective. The client can't connect to 20 different bolt servers to load balance things.
uLink gets around this issue by having servers in 'zones' which it's uZone product then moves the connections between each zone. I think it works, but my uLink opinions should be stated elsewhere.
You can use Bolt to migrate connections between scenes, where a server is running multiple scenes as a single scene per area, and the client moves between them. It's not really a 'native' feature, but you can work around it. It doesn't mean 1000 people concurrently in a single scene, but if you have people playing around the realms / scenes, it's doable in some fashion.
Yep, tutorials need an update. Documentation could be improved. Community great. JabbR chat has like 5-10 people usually willing to help most of the time, so long as you're patient enough for someone to read the question and not expect instant gratification. I've seen a few people ask a question, get no response in 30 seconds, and call us jerks and how the community is nothing like they expected and leave. I'm sorry I don't stare at the chatroom 24x7 instead of working on my game. My bad.
I haven't tried it personally, but PS4 is on there for a supported platform. I know he was looking to get a WIIU at some point, but don't know the status of either.
Yea, I'm aware about the client -> server relationship. When I was speaking about multiple helper servers running I was directly talking about the server side of things. A client will never connect to more than one server at a time as it'll get "passed" around (login -> cell manager (decides which cell to put player into) -> cell server) as an example.
However, running a headless dedicated server via unity never mentioned a connection bandwidth limitation (aka: a server being "crushed" from only 1000 different connections per server). Keeping in mind this is also why many larger MMO projects over-engineer their server solution to use many authoritative helper servers that work in conjunction with each other to form one cohesive server. This is why one "server" contains 5 or more sub-servers within that server that handle different tasks and connections.
Therefore, at any given time 921 players may be "playing" in different areas of the world itself so they're being handled by the cellManager and cellServers respectively while the "loginServer", and "baseServer" are handling another 79 players that are coming or going (Iogging in -> character select -> hitting play -> being passed on to a cellManager) at any given time. This is information i've picked up sporadically researching different methods of handling load balancing.
I'd like to see more discussion on larger solution options since most of the time new MMO projects "re-invent" the wheel in terms of network architecture. I've yet to come across a half-decent solution for networking of an MMO because people have death-grips on this information within the industry.
Hope that's as clear as mud! haha
I understand what you're saying. I am not talking about a bandwidth limitation, I am referring to Unity running a single thread to handle your actual game logic along with Bolt to do the I/O. It's a processing limitation.
Well, as I stated, Unity Park via their uLink/uZone/etc. products handle the load balancing by automatically migrating connections between different boundaries on a scene, which is how they accomplish having 1000's of players simultaneously. As for Bolt, it does not natively support a solution like this at all, so you'd have to work around it somehow until either Bolt has a standalone instance in the future or something else.
It all depends on what you want, how you code it, etc. Anything is possible with enough time, effort, and knowledge.
Yea I was more asking about any limitations to Bolt that may bottle-neck load balancing that I write custom with Bolt. That's all !
I'm currently trying to avoid extending anything from Bolt, and trying to simply use Bolt's events (instead of RPCs) to do the bulk of work between daemon servers that I'll use.
Looking like all production on bolt has stopped!
Yup, there was a report of @fholm having electrical issues ... but it's been a fair bit of time since the last release and no official word through any written channels. It was announced that there would be an update to release a week or so ago, but that time has passed with nothing released and still no word.
I suppose it could be that fholm is going over the new networking code that is to be released by Unity in June (-ish) with 5.1, but nothing has actually been said about that.
I just recently bought bolt and got my project working with it. I hope he continue his work on bolt, since I ain't got money for another networking plugin....
80 bucks for Beta Debug Unity 5 version - are you serious FHolm? Bolt is very simple network solution and people say that it works very slow in Unity 5. No any updates for 6 weeks! It seems like this project abandoned now - check the roadmap - https://trello.com/b/r10l0E8m/bolt-engine - nothing done!
If someone interested in FREE advanced network solution that works well in Unity 5 - just ask me
I don't think, I get authoritative movement in any other networking asset done, like I did in bolt. Also lag compensation and client prediction. If you say I can do that with your network solution, I'm interested. But I really hope, fholm recover himself and keep working on bolt, since I really like the workflow it has.
Jep, it’s up to you to sit and wait that maybe mr FHolm going to do something. Not the way for me
hey abrasive! GROW UP!!! you sound like a stupid little child. You wish your tiny little brain could cope with making something like this.
Fholm has never held back giving refunds. If you're so upset then get a refund. I sure he will be happy to refund people like you. I wouldn't want people like you any near my software or community.
He's doing what needs to be done to make Bolt work well with unity 5. Just give him the space he needs to do that.
I have no plans to buy Bolt, because I do not want to pay 80 bucks to be a Beta tester
If I pay money I want to be sure that product is ready for production. Some people on Bolt forum say that in Unity 5 it works very slow and buggy. When I ask mr FHolm for some discount, because I would like to see ONLY source - he say no
According to roadmap - https://trello.com/b/r10l0E8m/bolt-engine - version 0.5 should be out already.
There are other network solutions and some even for free and more advanced.
If you think that mr FHolm is an network genius - show me some production-ready solution from him
Right now Bolt looks like Forever-Beta-Give-Me-Money solution.
@abrasive http://survivetheforest.com/ That's using bolt for multiplayer
I agree with abrasive, no one wants to pay $80 dollars for a product we cant even demo yet.
And now Fholm wont even respond to anyone. So you can try to get a refund, but good luck getting a answer.
I am glad I did not put $80 down for bolt, I am just going to wait for unet
Yes and it is buggy as crap lol!
Guys, he's been solid so far on getting updates out the door. Either the new networking code for Unity coming in June-ish has blown him out of the water, or something in his life is going on. Chill~~
I myself paid for Bolt to solve a requirement for a simulation project I was working on, but it seems that Bolt has issues with scenarios where assets don't exist 24/7 (aka: a permanence issue). This is needed for both MMO and Simulation solutions.
However, I've been told that certain aspects of Bolt could be extended out to work as a networking solution for an MMO/Sim project. I just haven't had much time lately to investigate into that.
At the end of the day if you don't want to pay $80, move on. I haven't found anything else as good as Bolt, and the problems he has solved regarding sync issues without writing any code is quite impressive.
What do you mean by "impressive"?
Bolt is not ready for any serious project and nobody has an idea when it will be.
In game production it is very easy to be too late with your project if you just sit and wait.
Agreed @TheBraxton, I haven't bought Bolt yet but for $80 you do get a lot. A big selling point is source-code access, so you are able to extend/modify the code if you want. I guess an alternative to Bolt that would be more stable would be UnityPark, but $600 per title seems a bit much in comparison
Sadly I have seen MANY developers slow down, or completely abandon projects due to the negative feedback and abusive comments by the minority. The majority of people who are happy and satisfied don't make comments simply stating "thank you!" which is sad.
@fholm I hope that everything is going alright in your personal life, I know all-to-well how much that can effect you. I also hope that the recent negative comments both here and on your forum do not discourage you from continuing this project. Currently I do not have time (or money) to dedicate to working on my projects, but when that time comes around I will be purchasing 3-4 licenses for my team/friends!
- haters gonna hate
- keep up the great work!
You can buy as many as you want but do not forget that it is Beta with no support at the moment
So if your server will crush all the time or you have some other problems you need to go to source and fix this
Or sit, wait and hope that everything is ok in personal life of mr FHolm.
@abrasive Just curious: why do are you so concerned about this project? I noticed that you posted on the bolt forums about this project being dead as well. What's your stake? Did you purchase a copy and are mad that development has halted? Are you a competitor? Are you just trolling? What's the deal. I'm genuinely just curious.
How many hours of someone's time do you think you get for only $80? Bolt is a bargain at 10x the price. I'm not asking for any refunds from fholm, and am quite happy with the fantastic value for my purchase!
To anyone thinking of buying this, think again.
I wish I could write a review to warn potential buyers, unfortunately, I bought my license from his website...
Support seems dead. Fholm has been extremely hard to reach for the last 2 months now.
He doesn't answer his mails. I sent him an e-mail on February 22nd and a friendly reminder two weeks after.
He never took the courtesy to answer. A simple, ".. sorry I am too busy to help you right now" would of suffice.
That said, BOLT is (was?) a great product.
The support (up until 2 months ago) was A+.
But you know what bothers me the most? It's not that fholm is not able to support Bolt at the moment.
It's the lack of communication with current Bolt user.
I'm sure we would all much prefer to hear from him, that for 2-3 months, the development of Bolt is on Hold.
That said, if you have your eyes set on Bolt. I would strongly advise on waiting before spending 80$ on it.
But keep your eyes open, if fholm comes back (and I strongly hope he does), Bolt is a fantastic product.
I'm not asking for a refund either. If anything, I'm glad of everything I've learn regarding networking and multiplayer games just by using Bolt. But Bolt is officially still in Beta and the fact that all seems to point that it will forever stay like this is disappointing, to say the less.
Would I advise on buying this for 80$ while it might stay in beta forever. Obviously, I can't.
Coz I really do not understand this effect of "genius mr FHolm"
Nobody has ever seen any production-ready solution from him, but everyone happy - good marketing policy.
Yes, I have plans to release my own High-CCU Multi-Server Network solution on Asset Store soon.
I wouldn't say everyone is happy with him right now. On the other hand, if you are trying to understand good marketing policy, actively trashes someone else's project probably isn't a great way to get people to try your project. I would advice you are doing more harm than good to your brand at the moment. Just some friendly advice.
The reason that those that have purchased bolt are still so prone to prop it up is because even in it's unfinished state it is a dream to work with. It gives the user a lot of tools that make the difficulty of network abstraction easy. It is also quite robust for it's level of completeness. If you haven't had an opportunity to try it I can understand how you might not understand. It rally is a wonderful project and I think it's just a lot of us are heartbroken at the premise that it might not be completed. I know I am.
Ok, clear, many thanks. I would like to try it, but 80 bucks is a little too much for Beta.
You know..I would love a "High_CCU Multi-Server Network Solution". However, the way you have treated people here, especially a competitor makes me highly suspicious. I have already been swindled by one "Fantastic MMO Maker" claim and it takes a bit more than attacking other people to trust these days.
I notice you have 7 posts, all in this particular thread. So..lots of experience with Unity? Or did you create an account to attack Bolt and fholm? And for your information, we purchased Bolt some time ago and decided not to use it, one of the reasons was the lack of support. But we did not ask for a refund and honestly, you have no idea what is going on in the developer's life.
This is a Unity forum, not politics.
So am I right after all?
I have 10 years of experience of network programming of various systems including online games.
Congratulations! Good luck with all your endeavors.
Then act like a professional.
I think those who are having issues do not need you to help them with this. It is between them and the developer.
Where I act like non professional?
I just think that from mr FHolm side it will be nice if he report the current state of the project. If he can not finish it because of not enough knowledge or time I may help
A professional would tell people that hey I have to be gone 2 months so not updates are coming, not just leave
I've warned abrasive and he's one step away from being banned for trolling a thread for assets of which he has no intention to buy. Be civil or be removed, your choice.
Thanks hippo. I was going to post something last night but thought better of it. A few people have voiced some legitimate concerns about lack of communication because it affects planning for projects and such, but someone like abrasive making a troll account just to stir up the pot (and somehow promote his future network solution?!) is not helping matters at all.
Fholm's Customer Service skillz have been extremely l33t 5 star grade since Bolt launched up until a couple months ago, and I think he deserves credit for that. And he's one dude.
I'm just speculating, but with the power issues, the dedicated work time on The Forest (which is improving Bolt) and the vastly increased userbase, as well as just everyday family stuff, I'm guessing he's just a bit overwhelmed - I know I would be.
0.4.2.5 we're still able to do much more much quicker than anything I've tried with Photon or uLink. My one and only concern has been if Bolt dev will continue or if it has been abandoned/sold.
It looks like from this imgur link http://i.imgur.com/4qJE2Pd.png (courtesy GGentzel on Jabbr, posted with his permission), that the latter is not the case and dev work on Bolt is going forward
I don't want to derail this thread, but its inevitable that if customer service doesn't resume I will have no option but to lock the thread, like I did with candela, due to the amount of hate it can incur. However, these are the risks everyone takes using the Asset Store, and if you have source, you should consider the asset you purchase to only be viable for the version you purchased. These people aren't Unity and we have to understand given the limited cost that support stops somewhere, or may not always be available.
I'm so relieved, that the work on bolt will continue, thanks for that post Jesse.
Keep working on that great asset Fholm
Well FHolm has been back all day on the JabbR. Basically, stuff happened in his life. It happens. Some people are mad, some aren't. Life goes on. Happy he's back, update 4.3 will be released soon from what I've read.
Bolt 0.4.3 has been released on the Bolt Engine website.
getting an issue with JumpFrames after following the 3rd person tutorial, have i missed a step perhaps? or has the unity version got something to do with it?
Assets/bolt_tutorial/scripts/Player/PlayerController.cs(170,34): error CS1061: Type `IPlayerCommandResult' does not contain a definition for `position' and no extension method `position' of type `IPlayerCommandResult' could be found (are you missing a using directive or an assembly reference?)
Assets/bolt_tutorial/scripts/Player/PlayerController.cs(170,14): error CS1502: The best overloaded method match for `PlayerMotor.SetState(UnityEngine.Vector3, UnityEngine.Vector3, bool, int)' has some invalid arguments
Assets/bolt_tutorial/scripts/Player/PlayerController.cs(170,14): error CS1503: Argument `#1' cannot convert `object' expression to type `UnityEngine.Vector3'
Assets/bolt_tutorial/scripts/Player/PlayerController.cs(176,18): error CS1061: Type `IPlayerCommandResult' does not contain a definition for `position' and no extension method `position' of type `IPlayerCommandResult' could be found (are you missing a using directive or an assembly reference?)
I know some of the tutorials are a little out of date, but people get them working. Come to the JabbR chatroom and people are generally willing to help. Without seeing your code, I have no idea, but it seems like you're missing something in your code, or something is wonky.
I started working with bolt almost a week ago, and actually, aside from some flaws in the documentation, i have been pretty impressed by the asset. I was reticent to use it at first, given some comments on this thread, but i was rapidly reassured when i decided to visit the community chat. I'm still not comfortable with networking, but Bolt helps me a lot to get the logic, and a functional networked prototype.
My only major gripe with it is the lack of random player matching