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Bug regression: overlay top bar is much taller

Discussion in '2021.2 Beta' started by laurentlavigne, May 31, 2021.

  1. laurentlavigne

    laurentlavigne

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    when making drastic design changes like this it's important to realize that screens have much more space horizontally
    the increase in vertical space of the top bar doesn't bring anything, the icons we used to have were large enough, just stretched to utilize the nature of 19:6 screens
    also account for the loss of functionality I'd say that overlay is currently a loss, for us users at least.
    the function of overlay is to allow tool docking, there is no reason to increase its real estate

    upload_2021-5-31_12-37-29.png
     
    elZach likes this.
  2. gabrielw_unity

    gabrielw_unity

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    Hi! :)

    I understand the concern, it was on our minds also - however, the old slim toolbar was just too small to enable good UI indications of button vs toggle vs just info. Especially considering that Overlays now enables people to put much more complex and custom items into these toolbars, we need those extra couple pixels to ensure future compatibility.

    Also, you mention that Overlays is hurting for 16:9 users - actually, the opposite :) You can now pull those horizontal toolbars over into vertical toolbars, or open/close quickly via the overlay system ... you gain lots of pixels back! Honestly, I work primarily on a standard 1080p monitor so I know the vertical-space pain :p

    Hope that helps, try the vertical option, I think you'll like it! :)
     
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  3. It is too wide for my taste. :( too bad we can't have square buttons and similarly slim toolbars vertically.
     
  4. laurentlavigne

    laurentlavigne

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    100% that.
    With square buttons vertical layout would be usable.

    no you don't because the top bar remains the same height regardless of where you place those buttons
     
  5. gabrielw_unity

    gabrielw_unity

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    Ah, some confusion there - if you pull all items out of the top bar, it will disappear :) So, then you do get all those pixels back.

    Square buttons were ruled out because they wouldn't work with the buttons that also have drop downs or fly-outs, again I feel the pain there but we had to make compromises :)
     
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  6. laurentlavigne

    laurentlavigne

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    oh this is cool!
    There is another compromise possible: wide layout and compact layout
    upload_2021-6-4_12-20-18.png
    PS: replace icon discontinuity with shades of gray will improve the visibility even more
     
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  7. gabrielw_unity

    gabrielw_unity

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    Yeah, we tried this also but really felt it impacted the readability of the icons too much ... It's a good one to take a second look at though, for sure!
     
  8. JoNax97

    JoNax97

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    I second this one!
     
  9. So, after many experiments and tries to use this feature, I settled with this for now:
    screenshot1.png

    It would be great if you could support it, either magically allow the square tool buttons or introducing a new "mode", "all collapsed overlay". All collapsed means every toolbar collapses into one button, just like in my screenshot, so the triangle icons are absolutely redundant and can be hidden. So the buttons can be reliably square.
    (BTW, the "Tools" - on the top - and the "Component Tools" - at the bottom - toolbars have the same icon.)

    Do you have plans to introduce this feature for Progrids? Or will it remain the "poor bastard" hidden gem tool as it always were without main stream considerations? :)
    The Progrid toolbar is made for this type of toolbar setup, it would be great to remove from the scene layout and move it into a toolbar like this.
     
  10. laurentlavigne

    laurentlavigne

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    Low readability is due to the discontinuity within icons.
    When you separate visual masses like that then the extra visual mass of the down arrow is muddled.
    Remove discontinuity within the icon then the down arrow, the only thing using discontinuity, stands out.
     
  11. gabrielw_unity

    gabrielw_unity

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    The other part of the problem here, we also need to ensure buttons that are both toggle and drop-down can fit - for example, the Grid buttons - they really need this separate space to operate as both.

    Speaking of Grid ... you don't need ProGrids anymore, the built-in Grids and Snapping tools should cover all the same functionality (it's been significantly upgraded for the Overlays build :) ) Or did you try this, and found issues?

    Tools and Component tools have same icon ... some more changes in the works there, yup.
     
  12. screenshot1.png

    I can't even trigger grid planes other than the Y. For starters. Meanwhile in progrids:
    screenshot2.png
     
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  13. gabrielw_unity

    gabrielw_unity

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    Sorry, can you clarify more? Is it just this bug (can't choose other axis), or are there specific features missing also? Thanks!
     
  14. Since I could never make the 3D grid work I didn't really bother with it. I turned it off and installed progrids. It's working, battle-tested and does what I need. Also it was closer to the Scene window than the grid (I know a couple of pixels), but since there is no disadvantage for progrids vs the built in, I use progrids. If I can get a fixed grid and 3D grid feature (more than one axis simultaneously), then I will take a closer look.

    Disclaimer though: I don't spend an awful lot of time building levels though, as a generalist I have to, but it's not my primary concern and frankly it's not my strongest suit.
     
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  15. gabrielw_unity

    gabrielw_unity

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    Ok, thanks for the info! Honestly, we saw very little (if any) use of the "3D Grid" visual, so we currently have no plans to add this to the new grid system. But that could change if we find lots of people really want it :)
     
  16. mahdi_jeddi

    mahdi_jeddi

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    What's really missing for us from ProGrids is the "Major Line Increments". Our designers set the world so that the grid needs to be 4x4 minor and 8x8 major. For now, I made a grid texture and tile it over all of our scenes which is not optimal.
     
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  17. laurentlavigne

    laurentlavigne

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    you can autolayout the button's down arrow BELOW the button when in vertical mode.
    horizontal layout icon-vertical separation line-down arrow
    becomes
    vertical layout icon-horizontal separation line-down arrow
     
  18. Ruchir

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    I have a quick question/suggestion, why don't we follow what sketch up does?
    It's a perfect case study for this and is proven to work on scale.
    upload_2021-6-14_11-20-26.png
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2021
  19. gabrielw_unity

    gabrielw_unity

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    Yup, but then you lose that all-important vertical space (considering most monitors have much less available vertical screen space).

    Ah, what about this are your referring to? :)
     
  20. MostHated

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    Ugh, all that wasted space is so frustrating to even look at. Why... why do those arrows have to *double* the width of the bar/icon? That is so unnecessary.

    If you can show me one, seriously just one single interface in which doubling the width of the icon just for an arrow indicator actually is necessary, works, and is a good idea, I will agree with you. I bet you that you can't. Yet I can show you 1,000 instances otherwise, but below you will find a quick three.

    It comes down to this, if your icons are unable to convey their purpose in the standard icon format, then you need better icons.

    If someone were taking a modern interface design class and they submitted this for a grade, how do you think they would do?

    Why does it often feel like you guys so incredibly against letting the user decide what they like and what works best for them? I always see posts saying "we feel" this and "we felt" that. Posts are then made asking the users what they feel about it, those posts are then completely disregarded, and whatever ends up happening happens and then we have to deal with it. Why does getting a simple option in the settings to pick between which size, or style we want to use feel like an impossible mission? If our feedback means nothing and is just for appearances, don't ask for it in the first place.








     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2021
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  21. Grimreaper358

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    Seems this is the change most people are asking for. It still Indicates that there are more options with the arrow but still keep the same ratio/space. The button might need to be a bit wider to not make the icons seem cramped and off center.

    upload_2021-6-29_14-9-44.png
     
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  22. castor76

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    I had to get 1920x1200 monitor to solve 16:9 issue! :D
     
  23. Onigiri

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    +1 for square icons with smaller arrow
     
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  24. gabrielw_unity

    gabrielw_unity

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    Hello!

    Regarding the toolbar on the side eating pixels, just a note that you can also set those up as corner-anchored (or floating) overlays if you prefer :)

    upload_2021-7-6_11-27-58.png

    Regarding square buttons (or another way to reduce size), sorry to hear your frustration, I can give a couple more insights if it helps:

    1. Minor note, but if you check those square buttons with the corner arrow, you'll notice they are often significantly larger in the vertical dimension - meaning they eat up that all-important vertical space. In fact, in Blender (which I do like very much), they are larger in both vertical and horizontal dimensions.

    2. Time and consistency - square buttons with a corner arrow would have been another new UI pattern, with a strong potential to slow things down. Overlays had already been delayed once, research was showing this version was a big improvement as-is, so we chose to release with this UI, knowing we could always iterate forward.

    Having personally gone from external creator to internal, I know the feeling ... best I can say is, people in here really do care and listen, the gears just turn a bit more slowly (and carefully) than you might expect :)
     
  25. BOXOPHOBIC

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    Hello,

    While the overlay functionality is super nice and sexy, what's the point of moving the top tools to overlays? What was the problem with the original design used for over 10 years? One could argue that the top bar tools were used only for scene view and that is a good argument, but still, I can't find a good reason for the overlays:

    1. In older unity versions I could have a scene and game view side by side and still see the options:
    upload_2021-7-8_20-34-31.png
    upload_2021-7-8_20-32-24.png

    Now I need to expand the scene view a lot just to see all of them without having to scatter them all over the scene view (I don't like the idea, but I will probably get used to it):
    upload_2021-7-8_20-33-49.png

    2. Do you plan to add overlays to other windows as well? How would that work? It makes sense a bit for scene view, maybe game view but what about other pannels? Scatter them all over the actual content? I guess it doesn't really make sense...
    upload_2021-7-8_20-51-54.png

    3. As I said, nice feature overall, but it feels a bit disrupted from the other windows both in terms of UX and UI.
    upload_2021-7-8_20-51-36.png

    That's being said, thumbs up for the feature implementation! Cheers :)
     
  26. laurentlavigne

    laurentlavigne

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    Then why did they disregard decade long habits that long time users (and avid supporters) of Unity have formed. Not to mention disregarding how muscle memory forms or other basics of cognitive/erognomics? Someone who cares and listens doesn't throw out of the window such fundamental priorities.

    For example, and bear with me because it took me some time to find out why my workflow was so negatively impacted by the new overlay:
    This is pre 2021.2
    upload_2021-7-12_9-52-42.png
    The scene view is squished very narrow to expand the game view to 1:1 device resolution. This is used a lot to tweak the UI and is very common.
    As you can see, switching from local to global is easy since muscle memory brings the mouse cursor to the upper left corner without thinking.

    In 2021.2 this is no longer possible with the new overlay because:
    1. The buttons will move whenever the layout changes since overlay is attached to the window. thus preventing muscle memory from forming.
    2. when the window is too narrow, the button is squished out of view, forcing to switch to some other overlay layout.

    So now we have to contend with extra cognitive effort of moving the overlay around and having vertical buttons to the left of the scene view occluding part of the scene, and the gizmos we are trying to access - in order to perform the same task! This is a net loss for us.

    Now fortunately the fix is super simple and it was suggested before: move the cloud icon back to the left and allow snap anywhere at the top.

    Everybody wins
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2021
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  27. PutridEx

    PutridEx

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    This. Maybe it's because I'm used to the way things were before (although, so is everyone), still, not a fan of this change.
     
  28. gabrielw_unity

    gabrielw_unity

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    Thanks for the extra info @BOXOPHOBIC and @laurentlavigne , appreciate the detail :) I'll try to answer in sections.

    Moving the Scene Tools into the Scene View is required to start ensuring the editor is truly consistent and predictable. As a rule, anyone should be able to open Unity, begin working, without researching "where are my tools for this view". Muscle memory is great for us advanced users, but it's not a reason to keep something that is clearly a problem (out of context tools that do not behave predictably). Additionally, for us advanced users - pulling the Scene View onto a second monitor is now so much better, your mouse (and eyes) aren't moving across 2 entire screens to make a simple tool change.

    Following that thought, yes, this starts in the Scene View but of course will radiate out to other relevant windows, with many expected changes along the way. Game view, Graph views, and other "canvas" style windows. So, yup the styling is a bit out of sync at the moment, but things will catch up. And change! I fully expect we'll find many improvements (such as slimming the toolbars, removing clutter, etc) as we expand the system. Several obvious wins are already on the table.

    Regarding it taking up extra space, it'd be great if you could try using Overlay Presets (toggle your smaller views to minimal overlays), vertical toolbars, floating overlays that you hot-swap via the Overlay Menu, and also the shortcut for "toggle all" (to instantly clear/show the Overlays and Toolbars). We've opened up lots of new options for customization, worth trying them all out.

    A note on that - before Overlays, those smaller windows would very quickly begin truncating the single toolbar, with no way to access the UI. Now, you at least have the option of customizing that to no longer truncate, and better match the window size/current needs. So the squished scene view, is now a much better situation, unless I misunderstand?
     
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  29. laurentlavigne

    laurentlavigne

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    Thanks for the answers @gabrielw_unity. I tried what you recommended and ... it is not bad! The implementation is *very* rough though and introduces regression, here is a list:
    1. regression: the new pivot and local/global button were a toggle and now are a popup. This requires 2x more clicks, one extra context switch (reading the popup) and a mouse move. (1350357)
    2. spacebar opens overlay layout widget but RMB on the docking bar does nothing. RMS is standard for that.
    3. comment: the overlay menu needs icons alongside the text, when working very fast icons help spare neurons.
    4. bug: when you shift spacebar then spacebar rapidly the overlay doesn't appear
    5. bug: when spacebar and moving mouse the overlay menu flickers
    6. when the vertical layout is used and the icons are floating, those which don't need a popup arrow can remain slim. for landmark effect.
    7. the double vertical line gets in the way, please add a RMB>lock to get rid of it.
    8. bug: LMB on the top of the orientation widget drags it. RMB>lock layout is needed.
    9. overlays are bound to the panel. why?
    10. first time I heard about floating overlays I thought "yay I can make a palette like in Maya". What's the plan with that?
    11. speaking of slimming down, is work being done on icons to solve the visual segmentation? Adding back colors even? That's why you need so much space for stuff, to make them somewhat legible.
     
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  30. Ruchir

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    1. For advanced users it can be done using Z and X keys.
    3. That would be helpful.
    4.Pretty annoying bug tbh :p
     
  31. BOXOPHOBIC

    BOXOPHOBIC

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    It seems that overlays introduced more problems than the original problem nobody knew ever existed :D
    No worries, I manage to do the same with some updates for my assets :eek:

    There are some valid points in your comment and I agree with them. Thanks for having this discussion with us! While I don't like some aspects, I hope they will improve in the future. There is some good feedback on this thread and I hope unity will take some of them into consideration. Cheers :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2021
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  32. PutridEx

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    Constantly switching between 2020 LTS and latest beta to test a bunch of things.
    everytime I see the overlay changes, I die a little.

    Especially the top tools being shoved onto the overlay. Who uses their mouse to select it? After a few days, you start using your keyboard, it's a few simple (next to each other) shortcuts.
    I could hide it, but i'd rather not unless I have to.


    It feels a bit cluttered to have the same amount of options compared to before where I'll have it without feeling any clutter.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2021
  33. Ruchir

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    I guess the main problem is that we still have the top bar, it's just that all the useful bits got moved in the scene view without getting any kind of extra space sadly:(
     
  34. Lars-Steenhoff

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    If we could add and organise items in the top bar the same way as in the scene-view bar that would solve this in the most natural way.

    The first thing I did after seeing that I could move and drag the items is try to put them back into the top bar, but this was not allowed. What is the reason why this is not allowed? @gabrielw_unity

    I'm talking about small icons that could fit there, not custom ones that are too big to fit there.
     
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  35. BOXOPHOBIC

    BOXOPHOBIC

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    Another aspect that I think could be improved is the button style design and the icons.
    Here is a quick comparison between the new bulky button style and the material preview's slick and modern feel.
    52c8e25287863d60492c6bf134c89842.gif

    And this :mad:

    upload_2021-7-16_2-17-55.png
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2021
  36. Lars-Steenhoff

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    Yes same feeling here, the buttons could be a bit cleaner, but the active state is kind of missing in the material example
     
  37. gabrielw_unity

    gabrielw_unity

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    Thanks for trying the extra methods! For those items here:

    1. I feel the pain on this one, but for future proofing and consistency, I didn't see a good alternative. Open to suggestions, keeping in mind this item will have anywhere from 2 to a dozen options, depending on what the current tool specifies (element, object, parent, global, custom-picked 1,2,3, etc)

    2. Can you clarify what "docking bar" is here? Thanks! You can access the Overlay menu (and items) by right-clicking on the Scene tab, or clicking the triple-dot menu button on the far right of the tab group, but maybe you mean the Overlays Toolbar zone itself? That's a good suggestion for sure :)

    3. Yup! This is why each Overlay has a nice custom icon when collapsed, we'd like to introduce those to the Overlays menu for sure (plus other helpers).

    4. Ah bug indeed, have you sent that one in? Thanks!

    5. Ditto above :D

    6. Yeah, we bounced this one on/off, eventually determined the best first route was consistent sizing all around ... very possible we'll change this, yup. Or better yet, find a solution that doesn't require the special size at all, as many people point out here (and we agree).

    7. Yup, also looking into some solution that doesn't require that "handle". RMB > Lock could do the trick, but painful when you need to unlock/re-lock ... I'm currently looking at removing the headers entirely, using clutch keys to enable control of the overlays instead.

    8. More for the above, yup.

    9. Tech reasons, and context reasons. Mostly context (UX). The goal of Overlays is to ensure a contextual experience, by giving tools/info a place to live in their context, under the control of the person using those tools/info (vs tool makers just locking that stuff into whatever place). We get that advanced users will want to pull stuff out, because they understand the systems enough to work around out-of-context things, and I'm pretty we'll solve for that down the line. First though, we wanted to make the default, core experience a contextual one. And then tech, yeah, it would have taken another 6 months to a year to do that well (easy to hack in, as some folks have already done, much more difficult to do that right, so many edge cases etc ... )

    10. That's on our board, but not planned yet. One more item that has been tested out in early stages, but hasn't made it to a real solution yet.

    11. I can't speak for certain on that, but I know there's a big push for meeting accessibility requirements overall, which would in theory address this, among many other issues :)
     
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  38. gabrielw_unity

    gabrielw_unity

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    I was equally surprised to find that many people make heavy use of those buttons. Especially, of course, anyone still learning the tools. For us advanced users, hiding it is fine, but ...

    ... also consider that this overlay now includes the Standard Tools, Contextual Tools, and Edit Modes. It's a one-stop-shop for "hey, these are the tools you can use right now". That's important to have in the context of the view.

    I know it's a big change but as the ecosystem grows it'll make better and better sense.
     
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  39. laurentlavigne

    laurentlavigne

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    I gotta say, this conversation got me pumped about the future of Unity's UI.

    MMB+click on the popup = toggle between the current choice and the last one.
    2. yes docking = overlay toolbar.
    3. very cool
    4&5. no ... 1352102 & 1352103 (it took 5s.... what did you give fogbugz today?!!)
    6. perhaps i didn't make it clear: the problem currently isn't as much that small icons take the same space as large icons but that this monotony isn't good for the eye because the brain learns to recognize silhouettes first, that's how you can navigate old cities like paris so easily without a map: each building is different. Currently you're giving us "Espace d'Abraxas"
    never heard of clutch key, what's is it?
    9. I understand the context and the wanting to put this in front of everyone before it's done. I don't agree with the decision of restricting us because there are better solutions: New users will be hand held by default when you replace the double line. Also an elegant way to prevent semantic chaos is to highlight all emigrated overlays when the mouse is in the owner window.
    10.
    what was the obstacle?
    11. awesome

    An extra for the road: Oh and show shortcuts as tooltips? didn't know about ZX
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2021
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  40. gabrielw_unity

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    1. Sure, we could introduce something like that. However, the usual issue ... we'd need to ensure that pattern was followed across the entire editor, totally consistent, or else it's just more guesswork for anyone using the tools. Sounds simple ... but, heh, not quite, with such a large space. Also - hidden controls like that are super undiscoverable - likely only a few would find it. As you mentioned with the ZX keys though - there's an easy-ish solution there, and we are working on it - displaying shortcuts and modifiers in tooltips and elsewhere. Discoverability holds us back from a lot of otherwise great solutions (asset store/etc folks too). Solving that!

    2. Ok yup, I think that's a pretty clear thing to implement :) Thanks again!

    3. :)

    4 & 5 - thanks!

    6. I get the silhouettes point, love all the work TF2 did with that (and documented), but how does that apply here? Sorry, still missing the point :D

    Clutch keys - ah, I mean modifier keys. Like holding CTRL and then doing a click, vs the regular click.

    9. Hmm, the best I can say is that we really need context, and consistency. Some workflows will definitely lose a bit of freedom in this, but that's mainly because the pre-ecosystem workflows were ... well, pretty much "wild west". There are some very exciting new tools on their way (Environment, Splines, level design tooling, animation and rigging, graph workflows, and much more ... ), these new restrictions are needed to ensure Unity avoids total UX fragmentation. Especially once you add asset store work to the mix (yikes). That said ... we're definitely expecting some early changes to the system, with both relaxing of some rules and tightening of others, over a couple versions. And enabling expert users to pull things out of context is very much on our minds, if that helps :)

    10. Just time, and existing obligations. Pretty small team working on both tooling (ProBuilder, grids, snapping, Polybrush, etc) and foundation (ecosystem, overlays, toolbars, also etc).

    11. :)

    Regarding shortcuts - yes! I think I mentioned above in this response also, this is something I'm personally working on as well, making those shortcuts and modifiers immediately, easily discoverable. Allows us to build much better workflows :)

    Thanks again, glad this discussion is helping!
     
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  41. laurentlavigne

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    1. " we'd need to ensure that pattern was followed across the entire editor," no you don't because MMB is not used in Unity buttons so it's bonus with zero collision. Try this in action by downloading XSI, some of the Softimage elders who now work at Unity will be happy to show you around this innovative UI.
    6. it's the same thing: at high speed a UI is perceives by landmarks. Strong silhouettes of non uniform button size provide landmarks. Bad icon, loss of color and uniform button size kill landmarks.
    9. good but we don't live in the future. currently we're dealing with losses of function and speed so you should have waited until we gain before taking away. always look from the standpoint of the user in the present.
    10. small teams are the best, you're doing great except for #9, you guys need to release a game on Steam to soften that intellectual rigor and level with us plebs. Also watch documentaries on Ricard Bofill's Espace D'abraxas and how it was to live in there. UI = architecture, same concepts of form v function v that human aspect.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2021
    gabrielw_unity likes this.
  42. KarlKarl2000

    KarlKarl2000

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2016
    Posts:
    606

    Hi @gabrielw_unity

    Since you guys are finished fixing something ... that some argue don't need fixing.

    I think the current overlay works fine. It will just take users time to adjust-- for blender users you know that pain going from 2.7 to 2.9... :cool:

    With that being said...

    Could you and your team focus on this "User Interface" task that DOES need fixing, please? It's been a problem since 2019 and has an issue tracker ticket. It's a terribly awful bug that no one on the Unity team seems brave enough to tackle.

    Will you be the hero? :D

    https://forum.unity.com/threads/workflow-case-study-show-us-your-pain.637552/page-12#post-7471396

    https://issuetracker.unity3d.com/is...e-editor-when-windows-are-docked-side-by-side
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2021