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Recent ToS update blocks the use of SpatialOS to make games in Unity

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by AtomiCal, Jan 10, 2019.

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  1. Spartikus3

    Spartikus3

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    I have emailed Unity "terms" after speaking with a contracts lawyer and asked for simple clarity on the following for my persistent world project:
    1) The type of project described above will not be subject to any special licensing or additional authorizations, regardless of the revenue it may make, outside of the existing requirement of a professional Unity license per developer seat based on total revenue.
    2) Utilizing game servers and or services like AWS Gamelift, PlayFab, Steam or other Internet and or cloud based servers, services and VPS hosting solutions will be at the sole discretion of myself as the developer and not subject to special licensing, costs or restrictions from Unity regarding authorized services. Specifically:
    i) Unrestricted ability to host headless server applications built within the Unity engine with the vendor of my choice.
    ii) Unrestricted ability to utilize any vendor integrations with my Unity built headless server applications and hosting platforms that would benefit my servers. (Not limited to, Monitoring, Management, Load balancing, etc.)
    iii) Unrestricted ability to dynamically and automatically spin up as many instances of the headless server applications built within the Unity engine as we see fit.
    3) The ability to distribute content between our headless server applications built within the Unity engine to our client applications also built within the Unity engine. Specifically the term "content" describes any assets or functionality required for our client application, built in Unity, to access and interact with our headless server(s) and website(s).
    4) The revenue model for commercializing my project will be at the sole discretion of myself as the developer and not subject to specific Unity authorized services for transactions, distribution and or any other special license consideration or authorizations from Unity in the future.
    5) The agreement to these points of clarification will supersede any interpretations of and or changes to the Unity engine End User License Agreement, Terms and Conditions and Additional Terms and Conditions as they apply.

    In my opinion these points solidify what the Unity champions keep suggesting Unity "means" by their ToS. I will let you know the response I get.
     
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  2. jashan

    jashan

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    This last sentence confused me. I read your posting as "I emailed UT after I talked to my lawyer and here is what they answered". Is that what you meant? If so, which response you are waiting for?

    Or is the above what your lawyer suggested, what you sent to UT and you are now waiting for what UT says about this?
     
  3. Spartikus3

    Spartikus3

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    I meant exactly what I said... I have emailed the terms group at Unity and asked for the clear authorization to proceed based on those points..

    Not sure what your question is.
     
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  4. optimise

    optimise

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    Does it means no matter how Unity engine End User License Agreement, Terms and Conditions and Additional Terms and Conditions change, point 1-4 will always remain true?
     
  5. wccrawford

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    Yeah, I think he means he asked Unity about all of those things. He hasn't heard back from them yet. Unless I'm further misunderstanding his post.
     
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  6. Spartikus3

    Spartikus3

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    Just to be clear guys I am not a lawyer. I can't speak as to what is the right approach for your project or what the terms of service mean. What I did was ignore all of the rhetoric about what Unity's "Intent" was and emailed them the points of clarity that are required to realize a commercial network/WAN game offering. These points of clarity create un-ambigous clarification on their current ToS.

    If Unity has no Intent to restrict our ability to utilize Internet gaming/hosting services or require us to use only their services it should be a simple question for them to answer.

    optimise: Specifically yes, Clarification #5 means that Unity authorizes an exemption from future changes to the ToS only as they would apply to the points in section 1 through 4. It is not a waiver of the ToS it is an agreement that in the case of changes that impact those points of clarification Unity authorizes an exemption.
     
  7. jashan

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    Ok, thanks, that clarifies it for me.

    Well, I guess I can answer myself now:

    This last sentence confused me. I read your posting as "I emailed UT after I talked to my lawyer and here is what they answered". Is that what you meant? => Your answer would probably be "NO", so the next question is irrelevant.

    Or is the above what your lawyer suggested, what you sent to UT and you are now waiting for what UT says about this? => simple answer to this would be "YES".

    It will be interesting to see if they even answer at all, and if so, whether or not it will be any kind of affirmation.
     
  8. JBR-games

    JBR-games

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  9. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Very interesting, but not for what they say as much as what they don't say. Their explanation for the Unity SDK mentions that the binary is uploaded to their servers, but they say nothing of the sort for the other platforms. Their Getting Started section for UE4 says nothing about uploading the binary to their servers either.

    If the explanations in this thread are accurate then it's an oversight but it's a very interesting oversight to make.

    Edit: Before anyone points it out, yes, I know they mentioned your files are uploaded to the server at the beginning of the article but they don't mention the game engine there and when they finally start discussing the game engines they only mention it for Unity.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
  10. elias_t

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    The more I read about SpatialOS, the more I like it.

    Why on earth are getting Unity users and paying customers alienated with this only the lawyers of Unity know.
     
  11. Flurgle

    Flurgle

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    Unity has more beginner users precisely for reasons stated above, and that it's way more accessible. You guys used to complain that Unity had no shader graph, or the graphics were not good (Now it has HDRP), or lacked open source. Now your only argument left is that it lacks AAA games using it. I suspect in the next few years we'll see that. In terms of AAA it's like comparing a warrior in training to a seasoned master. Your comparison makes no sense at this time. With ECS, Burst, Jobs, HDRP, Visual graphs, I think we'll see a lot of interesting stuff happen.

    Unity has at least a 45% market share in the entire games industry, with Unreal at around 17%. Unity CEO stated at some point they have "50 times more customers in the engine business" than Unreal.
     
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  12. NewSystemGames

    NewSystemGames

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    only thing i hate about unity is their revenue share model, I much prefer the "We win when you win" model
     
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  13. Boinx

    Boinx

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    Did Unity make any further statements? They said they’d take the weekend to get stuff together, but I haven’t seen what they actually said today.
     
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  14. Ryiah

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    They didn't say they would have results for us today. They said they were working through the weekend and that they would have an update in the "next few days". I fully expect we won't see anything till at least Wednesday.

    Keep in mind they weren't just writing another blog post. They have their lawyers going through the ToS. Lawyers are slow.

    https://blogs.unity3d.com/2019/01/1...-you-can-keep-working-on-your-spatialos-game/ (bottom of blog post)
     
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  15. Spartikus3

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    Sorry jashan. I thought maybe you hadnt read the post completely. My bad. I did consult with corporate contract lawyer but that is really here nor there because it was a review specific to my project but the direction I got was that the ToS is extremely broad and restrictive in many areas not just 2.4 but getting clarity that UT intends to not restrict our choice of hosting and services was required.
     
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  16. Spartikus3

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    Just as an additional followup pending Unity response and an updated ToS, there are several other worrying sections of the ToS. Specifically section 3 around Consent to data collection. Unity is collecting data from end users of software created by developers using Unity. Yes that is us. Yes it is illegal.

    https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news...ction_of_personal_info_through_kids_games.php

    Yes this is serious.
     
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  17. PiratePaprika

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    No time to read article but in recent update (2018.3) you can disable "Hardware Statistics" even in Personal, you don't have to pay for Pro.
     
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  18. Ryiah

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    That article, and for that matter the majority of information on the lawsuit when I search for it, is from August 2017. I know lawsuits tend to be slow but I would think there would be more information available on this. I was only able to find a single semi-recent article, mentioning other companies being brought into the case, but even then it's half a year old.

    https://www.mobilemarketer.com/news...for-privacy-violations-in-disney-apps/526335/
     
  19. Joe-Censored

    Joe-Censored

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    Fluff article from 18 months ago that doesn't go into the issues or any follow up on how the case is going. :rolleyes:
     
  20. AcidArrow

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  21. Spartikus3

    Spartikus3

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    You can search a lot of open class action lawsuits at http://topclassactions.com

    https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit...data-collection-class-action-lawsuits-tossed/

    It is an ongoing case. Disney admits the information was collected but are requesting it get thrown out (unlikely) because the parents have no proof of how the collected data was used.

    Just to be clear that does not change the fact it was illegal to gather the data:

    "The complaint says the company violated privacy laws in California, New York and Massachusetts, along with the federal Children's Online Privacy Protection Act (COPPA)."

    I haven't confirmed that it violates Canadian Privacy Law (yet) but I believe it does.

    EDIT: The point here being, how many of us have the money and resources of Disney Enterprises to fight a class action lawsuit because Unity is breaking privacy laws by arbitrarily collecting data from end users? Read the updated Unity Privacy Policy. It is all clearly spelled out.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
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  22. Ryiah

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    For the actual court documents check the link below. Most of it is behind a paywall but the important docs are not.

    https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/6133733/rushing-v-the-walt-disney-company/

    To be fair this isn't a problem with Unity as much as it is with Disney. Unity provides ways for developers to disable data collection. I believe Unity defaults to having it disabled now, but regardless if the developers turn it on or leave it on that's not Unity's fault.
     
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  23. Spartikus3

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    Ryiah are you able to show me where we can disable data collection in Unity 2017 LTS? I couldn't find it or any information on it. Based on Unity's privacy Policy the way I read and possibly misinterpreted it, the data is still being collected from end users executing a program developed/built in Unity.

    Link to the Unity Privacy Policy: https://unity3d.com/legal/privacy-policy

    Specifically the first paragraph:

    "
    I play a game built with Unity software, what should I know?
    Unity has collected some or all of the following information about your device: unique device identifiers (e.g., IDFV for iOS devices and Android ID for Android devices); IP address; country of install (mapped from IP address); device manufacturer and model platform type (iOS, Android, Mac, Windows, etc.) and the operating system and version running on your system or device; language; CPU information such as model, the number of CPUs present, frequency, and instruction set support flags; the graphics card type and vendor name; graphics card driver name and version (e.g., “nv4disp.dll 6.10.93.71”); which graphics API is in use (e.g., “OpenGL 2.1” or “Direct3D 9.0c”); amount of system and video RAM present; current screen resolution; version of the Unity Editor used to create the game; sensor flags (e.g., device support for gyroscope, touch pressure or accelerometer); application or bundle identification (“app ID”) of the game installed; unique advertising identifiers provided for iOS and Android devices (e.g., IDFA or Android Ad ID); and a checksum of all the data that gets sent to verify that it transmitted correctly.

    Some Unity developers use Unity’s Analytics and Ad services, which collect additional information (see FAQs on Unity Analytics and Unity Ads below for details); however, our usage of this data is largely for the following purposes. In serving ads, we try to predict which ads will be of most interest to you based on the games you play and the ads you watch. For analytics, we assist our developers to deliver the best game experience for you. For example, game developers who use our software often standardize certain features to enhance game player experience, such as saving your place in a game. This means that the game level you reached in your last session is where you will begin when you return to the game. Developers also need our assistance in tracking when you are eligible to redeem a reward within a game, such as when you have completed a challenge and get store credits to purchase new tools to play the game. In our analytics service, some of your data points will also be rolled up into an anonymized, aggregated format to help game developers make decisions about how they support their games. For example, if a game developer is considering phasing out support for an older version of iOS software, they may look at the total number of players currently using that version of iOS software to determine if they need to support that version in updates. Another use on a per game basis is when a developer analyzes the numbers of players dropping out after a certain level. The developer would use this information to look at the design of their game and re-assess if the game challenge is truly intuitive or needs some additional instruction for players. This allows the developer to enhance the experience and retain the developer’s customers better.

    Some Unity developers may collect your information independent of Unity. Unity does not have control over this information. If you want to request access to or deletion of this information, then check each developer’s app settings or website for instructions on how to make a request.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
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  24. Player7

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    yeah I never liked the data collection.. Infact it pisses me off everytime I do a new build just because I go with changing the gamename.v<version>.exe for every build.. and that triggers my firewall when launching it with questions about allowing it to do phone home S***.. certainly not to my own servers as I have no need for that data collecting.. but the option to disable it only comes with Pro licenses I think? Be interesting to see if a Pro release build that has it disabled would result in a completely net connection-less game (I mean so long as no other assets and your own code didn't include anything to connect to an outside server that is)

    And just as another reason for the data collection, it's not really shared anymore on the mobile.. I believe Unity used to update a page that include mobile statistics.. but that doesn't get updated, hell if it was I would expect that useless drop down menu in the Unity editor that shows various Mobile screen resolutions to have been fking updated with what are the most popular device screensizes.. but that would be like actually being useful in small way wouldln't it.. and for that Unity just don't really bother doing much.
     
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  25. Ryiah

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    Go to the Unity Dashboard.

    https://developer.cloud.unity3d.com/projects/

    Click the appropriate project. From there one of the services is Analytics. It's disabled for all of my projects.

    Edit -> Project -> Player Settings. Under "Other Settings" check "Disable HW Statistics".

    Finally, remove Unity Ads.
     
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  26. Spartikus3

    Spartikus3

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    Analytics is separate from the core Unity Data collection as per the Privacy Policy Ryiah.

    See the first sentence of paragraph 2 from above:

    "Some Unity developers use Unity’s Analytics and Ad services, which collect additional information"
     
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  27. Ryiah

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    Right, I've updated my post with all of them. You will need to forego advertising (and in-app purchases) from every ad service because I'm not aware of a single one that doesn't involve analytics (their own or otherwise) to some degree.

    Essentially you will either need to charge an upfront cost for the app or accept that you will be giving it away for free.
     
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  28. Spartikus3

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    Well if that works I thank you for that! I will definitely go and check all of my Project settings and try and test this. Would like an official response from Unity on the data gathering but one bird at a time. :)

    Thank you for sharing all of that.
     
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  29. snacktime

    snacktime

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    Pretty much every type of client connected to an online service collects data. You use Chrome, you give them permission to collect all sorts of data. Also, the section of the Unity TOS where you agree to comply with applicable laws, it specifically mentions COPPA. So I really doubt Unity would turn around and violate that themselves being they made it a point to single it out.
     
  30. Spartikus3

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    I am confused snacktime as to how you relate the collection of data by an online service to a client running an app developed by "a developer" having their personal information harvested by a third party (Unity Technologies) without consent?

    If I hadnt read the Privacy Policy in detail I would have been unaware Unity was doing this. In "Additional Terms and Conditions" it does state that the developer must perform all legally required notifications to end users about Unity collecting their data so once again buried in not the EULA, not the ToS but the "Additional ToS" (Who the heck uses "Additional" ToS? Why not just put it in the ToS for petes sake and have 1 document) AND the privacy policy there is information that this is happening..

    I wonder how many devs are aware of this and actually in breach of privacy laws because they havent disabled this or provided notification to their user base that the info is being collected?

    Fact of the matter it is on the developer to know the legalities involved with their business and the limitations and restrictions and caviats of the software they use. If Ryiah's suggestion actually works and turns it off then there is a clear solution to this and devs should educate themselves and stay in compliance with privacy laws.
     
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  31. PiratePaprika

    PiratePaprika

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    There is:
    Unity Editor Analytics (you have to pay to disable)
    Games build with Unity (Hardware Statistics) you can disable it after 2018.3, before 2018.3 you have to pay (get Pro) if you use Personal.
    and Unity Analytics Plugin
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
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  32. snacktime

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    Everyone collects usage data. The distinction between service and client is I think irrelevant. Everyone selling a product is collecting data on how it's used.

    You publish a game on steam or a mobile game on Google/Apple, or on a social network, they are collecting usage data on your game for their own reasons. And that information goes out to all sorts of other vendors, like the hardware manufacturers and partners and such. To think Unity is really any different is to simply not be aware of how pervasive the practice is. You might disagree that it's a good thing, but the point here is more is it a normal thing. And it's absolutely the norm now days.
     
  33. PiratePaprika

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    Just because everyone is collection data doesn't mean it's legal.
    And games do get removed from Google, that's why they made Unity Data Privacy Plug-in.

    But we are getting offtopic...
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
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  34. Lurking-Ninja

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    Well, if you as a developer (generic "you", meaning any developer) develop a game precisely for children I expect you to know and respect the special laws we have in place and mindfully set every single setting and consciously go through the application and look for errors. If you don't know what to do, you always can hire a certification service who will examine your application and its behavior and tell you if you're in compliance or not. Since Unity is a general purpose engine, we cannot afford to rely on the default settings ever, Unity probably will set the default to whatever most users want by default and whatever is in their business interest (end-user stats are valuable, they know what kind of devices are popular among Unity Application users, so they know broad direction what parts of the engine should be made more awesome first, which parts can be scheduled later, etc)

    Also I don't see any problem keeping certain settings behind pay-wall (obviously it's better for us if they don't), the data has value if you don't want to feed back this value to Unity, you feel free to buy the Unity paid version. (Personal opinion)
     
  35. snacktime

    snacktime

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    No but to assume that Unity is doing so illegally doesn't seem to be a reasonable stance to take. We have no reason to think they would do that, and a number of reasons to think they would not. Just common sense on the type of information that they would find valuable for one. The fact that they have a good number of larger mobile studios using it, where you can be sure they know what Unity is sending. Their own TOS which highlights COPPA means they are very much aware of the whole issue. So assuming they are doing anything illegal doesn't add up.
     
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  36. Ryiah

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    Hardware statistics doesn't include personal information. It's information on the hardware capabilities. How fast is the processor? How much memory is included? None of that is forbidden by COPPA.
     
  37. Ryiah

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    Wrong. Both GDPR and COPPA forbid collection of personal data but don't forbid collection of anonymous data like hardware statistics. Go read the laws. I've linked the appropriate sections below. They're very easily understood.

    https://gdpr-info.eu/art-4-gdpr/
    https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/bus...e-privacy-protection-rule-six-step-compliance

    Likewise the "right to erasure" only pertains to personal data. They're under no obligation to remove anonymous data which makes perfect sense as you can't link anonymous data like hardware statistics to who you are if it's anonymous.

    https://gdpr-info.eu/art-17-gdpr/
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
  38. PiratePaprika

    PiratePaprika

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    Well i got something mixed up.
     
  39. Spartikus3

    Spartikus3

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    Actually Ryiah IP addresses fall into the category of personal information and are covered by most personal information privacy laws in most countries.

    None of us here are lawyers so let's leave that up to them but if it wasn't potentially illegal then I suspect the Disney/Unity courtcase would have been dismissed over a year ago.
     
  40. Ryiah

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    Correct. That said while Unity makes a complete list of information they collect they don't do a terribly great job of saying which systems collect which information. Unity isn't very good at writing Terms of Service. :p
     
  41. Lurking-Ninja

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    I know it's a little bit controversial and a little bit contradictory, but this tells me that they are still a company founded and influenced by developers. They're better at tech than at legal stuff. (Obviously this is not an excuse)
     
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  42. JBR-games

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  43. Buhlaine

    Buhlaine

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    Hey everyone,

    Thank you to the community for your patience. Tomorrow morning, we’ll be updating our Terms of Service (TOS). You’re all invited to join us tomorrow at 10AM Pacific on r/Unity3D for an AMA where John Riccitiello and Joachim Ante will be answering questions. We look forward to hearing from you then.
     
  44. Spartikus3

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    Thank you very much for the update Buhlaine. Looking forward to it.
     
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  45. Buhlaine

    Buhlaine

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    As an FYI, I'll also be sharing the AMA link here when it's live. Cheers!
     
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  46. snoopbaron

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    Will they be addressing the surprise second class Personal (but actually trial) licenses, that indie developers in Asia have been hit with? https://forum.unity.com/threads/rec...ke-games-in-unity.610447/page-18#post-4098223

    The AMA is at 2 AM Taiwan time so I won't be able to attend it. But I think we deserve a clear answer from Unity it has been more than a month since this stealth change was made to Personal licenses in Asia and there hasn't been any official word from Unity HQ. At least in the case of SpatialOS the TOS was actually changed, in our case the change was made without any warning and without any change to the licensing information or dialogs. I feel both of these changes to Unity licensing should be clearly addressed.
     
  47. Murgilod

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  48. Rockwall33

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    Hello!

    Been reading this thread, good information flowing through here. I’m curious to see how it goes!

    While I may not be developing a multiplayer game now (working single player, almost done), my next game will be multiplayer.

    Will the Reddit AMA be recorded? Or documented? I don’t use as often, don’t know how it works :p Thank you!!

    Have a awesome day!!!
     
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  49. HeadClot88

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    Here is a video version of what has happened so far.

     
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  50. Boinx

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    Reddit is kind of like a forum. AMA means Ask Me Anything. You should be able to see what questions were answered any time afterwards by following the link they said they will provide tomorrow.
     
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