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Realtime CSG

Discussion in 'World Building' started by hippocoder, Jun 11, 2019.

  1. hippocoder

    hippocoder

    Digital Ape

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    https://assetstore.unity.com/packages/tools/modeling/realtime-csg-69542 - just bought this, can we have it native in Unity?

    I already know it's saved way more time than Probuilder ever did. Probuilder is OK for little objects or something but quickly falls apart for environment work as you do have spend time fixing up and modelling your way around it, which is quite time consuming, plus the team seem fragmented between builder, brush and general UI work... none of these problems exist in RCSG.

    Please make Realtime CSG a native unity citizen, thanks. The author is already staff at Unity. There's no friction, then indies can quickly perform environment building in CSG, then decorate it with Probuilder (which is a much more correct approach).

    Tools for the job, and Unity is missing a vital tool.
     
    Zebbi, Player7, konsic and 5 others like this.
  2. Stardog

    Stardog

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    I've already shouted at Unity over this to no avail. UModeler is technically better in many ways. Maybe in 6 years we'll gave something native like that. It would be nice if they just did it immediately.

    RealtimeCSG/SabreCSG are good for boxy prototyping due to the subtractive brush idea (taken from UnrealEngine which has had it native since the 90's) and it has a good intergrated grid. It breaks when you want a lot of small details, or want to turn the object into a mesh for a physics object. Probuilder is better for organic 'off-grid' mesh modelling. UModeler is the best of both worlds, in my opinion. It uses the Sketchup approach of being able to extrude shapes that you have drawn on a surface, so it's much faster to make things, and the mesh is well optimised.

    Also, the authors of Realtime/Sabre have teamed up to make Chisel (discord link).

    Here's some of me complaining about it. Also, note, since my first moan in Feb 2018 I don't think PB has added any features, has it? The CSG is still experimental, etc. I think Unity integrated it because it was the most popular, and no other reason.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
  3. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    The workflows I use are the same as WOW/Cod/Other:

    1. you use terrain for playable and visual
    2. you use CSG for playable and visual
    3. you use modelling package for playable and visual surfaces you can't do with 1 and 2.
    4. you use detail meshes which aren't playable on all of the above to add rich cullable detail.

    The mistake many make is assuming that CSG or Probuilder or UModeler is the right fit for all situations, that's just inexperience talking. They're really not and should never be the one true solution. You need all 4 in the above stack properly in their own roles.

    Doing that means you get the non-destructive workflow of CSG / Terrain. You get to constantly iterate on the gameplay space while bulking out most of the visuals. Only later do you prop it up with detail meshes.

    It's an unbelievable life-altering revelation when you realise that you can with one prefab cut a hole in something AND decorate it at the same time with a single reusable, duplicatable prefab (door frame, cave opening, broken wall, window frame etc) with one click. You can *only* do this stuff with CSG.

    You can do things you can never do with Umodeller, 3dsmax, probuilder. You can not only do this (model + decorate simultaneously within one second) but also change your mind or scale it or whatever. It's a game changer and absurd that people aren't aware of it and only consider CSG to be this blocky old-school thing. That's just their loss and VERY much my gain.

    PS. My world doesn't look anything like a boxy grid thing.
     
    andreiagmu likes this.
  4. Stardog

    Stardog

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    I haven't found the non-destructive approach of CSG important enough. At the end of the day you can adjust window/door/room sizes with the UModeler/Sketchup approach very easily. Removing them completely is the issue, but with smart deletion it can sometimes fill the gap (in Sketchup at least when deleting a window). The problem with PB is making the door in the first place is very difficult without CSG.

    CSG is also problematic with shapes like arches. It often makes them out of multiple wedge-shaped brushes and can slow the editor down as the gameobject count increases.

    If UModeler could integrate subtractive 'live' brushes, I don't see why you would need RealtimeCSG. How do you go about chamfering/bevelling with CSG, or even making a sphere? It falls apart at that point, hence why it's better for box shapes.
     
    hippocoder likes this.
  5. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Yeah we're a small team but we have huge environments and, honestly, in the 35 years I've been in game dev, this workflow is the best for us so I wanted to talk about it. I appreciate you may think different but the topic is indeed Realtime CSG, and Umodeler is classic modelling, basically not what this thread is for...

    The topic is not for alternatives to probuilder, but why a realtime CSG workflow has a solid point in anyone's arsenal.

    If you want to argue for UModeler then that's fine but not in this thread <3
     
  6. gabrielw_unity

    gabrielw_unity

    Unity Technologies

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    +1

    ProBuilder started as an attempt to recreate Hammer in Unity, quickly veered off into a "3D Modeling" toolset. This has made it great for certain workflows, not great for others. I'd really like to return to those roots at some point, add a bit of hybrid CSG/mesh magic into Unity, I think we'll get there in the not-terribly-distant future :)
     
    hippocoder and logicalerror like this.
  7. EngineArtist

    EngineArtist

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    That's awesome to hear, Gabriel!

    I think that a Hammer/CSG kind of direction would be very beneficial to those of us who like to concentrate on creating level geometry using brushes and on texturing using surface material alignment (or whatever that handy thing is called) :)
     
    gabrielw_unity likes this.
  8. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    If you could add basic realtime CSG (punching holes into things in a non destructive way) then that would just be amazing.
     
    gabrielw_unity likes this.