Realistically speaking if you never done 3D before will 2D pixel art be faster to make a game?

So here is the thing in my case I have never done 3D, now lets say I was to use a 3D art style it means I would have to first learn Maya or Blender, then I would have to go and create the characters and the animations then I would have to create 3D models for the background.

Since its a platformer, there will not need to be any kind of high details in faces or anything really, but I am guessing creating a 3D tree or mountain or house for the background could very well take longer?

What do you guys think? I hear it takes a long time to learn Blender and to be able to make stuff at acceptable quality in it.

 

Personally I think making 3D stuff is a lot easier and faster than making consistent and good looking 2D pixel art but then again more programmer than artist. 2D requires more artistic imagination and view while 3D can be done for example by replicating real world things and then altering them.

Note that even terrible 3D models can look good when they are not viewed close up and you use good lightning and shaders.

 

WOW you are right, I am not good at art and imagination at all. Anything I do regarding art is copied from something or somewhere.

I could spend the time to learn Blender or Maya and just replicate real world stuff. My work does NOT have to look perfect because its essentially a metal slug clone of small character moving and things zoomed out far away. I could then look at other games and take pics of its levels and try to replicate and trace over it with low poly etc.

 

Yep, 2D is quicker to make, because the learning is simpler, the code smaller, and the art less (if you pick a simple 2D animation format).

3D is not faster for an actual game unless it is essentially 'retro 3d'. Things like normal maps, PBR and more all will ruin your party, while the humble sprite can go as simple as a few pixels.

3D animation can be a whole new skillset to learn too.

 

This is mainly in context of your Metal Slug inspired game I am guessing? Although I get that you may well just be wondering in general.

Bottom line is 2D or 3D the time & difficulty spent on graphics will be based on the quality level you are targeting. The further the target level is away from your current skills the longer it will take. The closer the target is to your current skills the easier it will be.

If you go with a ultra low poly 3D models or a very simplistic 2D graphics style either one should be easy to create the graphics content. If you go with either of these then you can focus on other things to make the display more visually appealing such as deep parallax scrolling layers.

I suggest just knocking out some things for a level in both formats 2D and 3D and weighing the cost (how much time it takes for each way) vs how satisfied you are with the results of each way.

The outcome of that will likely be different from person to person but it only matters for you in this case.

 

^ ooh thanks and yeah it was regarding my metal slug clone in general I am fascinated with the lighting and overall graphics out of the box in UE4 and how easy it is to get good looking stuff but there is noway in hell I am using UE4 to make a paper 2D sprite game.

 

This is the correct answer. High quality 2D is more time intensive than low-quality 3D and vice-versa. But if you have experience and natural ability drawing 2D art, 2D may give you a higher return on your investment, and of course, vice-versa.

 

I understand. Just be mindful when assessing how wonderful things look of the assets being used. If you are saying a simple cube looks great in UE4 then fantastic. However, if you are using some demo assets that came with UE4 then you really must disregard how good it looks. It's meaningless because it doesn't accurately reflect what your own assets will look like.

I think this is one of the downsides of modern game engines. They often come with demo projects featuring high quality art assets in 2D and 3D and it gets people started off on the wrong foot because they have that kind of quality in their mind from the beginning.

Only judge the results of your own content in these game engines unless you plan to hire artists to create high quality art assets for you.

Just thought it was worth mentioning.

 

Ooh ok thanks I understand what you are saying. I am going to spend a week doing both 3D and 2D art and determine how good I am at either. I am going to start off with 2D first

 

One week won't tell you anything. After all you would have to know the tools in order to get a fair estimate of how much you prefer one or the other and that alone will take longer than a week for tools like Blender.

 

Ok well I am going to do the smarter more efficient and realistic thing, I am going to get started on Pixel Art and see how that goes it shouldn't be too difficult to draw 2D. After all fun and gameplay is most important I reckon.

 

If you are just starting out, try making clones of old popular games for practice. For example, try building both a 2D clone of Pong and a 3D clone of Pong. This will give you a better idea about building a 2D vs 3D game. Build both from scratch as a learning experience.

 

Animating can be faster in 3D than 2D sprites, but upfront creation of the 3D content will take multiple times longer to create than 2D. As far as metal slug type look. their vehicles were exceptionally animated, but I'd probably suggest do this in 2D because of the natural squash & stretch applied to the animation quality in that game. Creating squash and stretch in 3D is doable but more complex and requires a level of competency a beginner artist will not attain right away.

Agree with others, depends upon your desired quality level and artistic ability to reach that level.

 

I only just realize how much animations these vehicles in Metal Slug has it has so much that it actually looks cute OMG look how the super vehicle tank ducks down it looks alive good god how on earth am I going to match this?

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Well it is AAA for 2D. You probably want to use something like https://blogs.unity3d.com/2016/12/02/unity-expands-2d-offerings-with-anima2d/

This makes animation reasonably practical, and you only need to focus on the sprite images, mostly.

 

ooh nice very very nice yet another reason why Unity is king of 2D games.

do you think I could atleast replicate the super vehicle for my metal slug clone? to make it look alive like in the video notice it somehow looks like its alive?? lets say I put extra attention on it but I do the rest in lower quality?

 

Yeah using the anima2D style, or alternative asset. You don't have a hope in hell of doing metal slug graphics though, so look for a simpler visual. Resolution can be higher, but detail cannot.

You can experiment with rendering models to sprites and then using keyframe animation (such as anima2D or spine).

 

2D basically requires creating a bunch of textures and then animating them.

3D requires creating a bunch of models, then creating a bunch of textures and then animating them.

The extra, non trivial, step of model creation tends to make 3D take much longer.

While I appretiate you can pour a huge amount of time into pixel art, you can do the same thing with a 3D model.

 

You're not going to make a game that matches the look of this. It's that simple. What you can do is make a game that matches the essence of how this one looks. Like sure animate the vehicles to make them feel kinda rubbery alive.

But as @hippocoder said choose a simpler art style. That's why in the one thread I shared the video of BroForce. That is much more reasonable graphics level for you to target and still I believe would be too high. But it is a heck of a lot more reasonable than metal slug calibre graphics.

I mean sure there are artists who may drop in and say well I drew this metal slug vehicle with animation. Thing is one bit of content is not gonna help you make the game. You need ALL of the graphics content for your game. So the only realistic option is to lower the target and get to work or hire quality pixel artist (maybe 2 or 3).

 

i found 3d modelling to be SUPER simple.. but then again i have like hundreds .. probably thousands of hours of time into working with older video game's level editors since being a child..

i tried to learn 2d pixel art and found it to be
A WHOLE NEW LEVEL OF PERFECTIONIST'S HELL
I mean, i spent like 2, 3, 4 hours moving like 5 pixels around cause it didnt look right LOL

 

Ha ha! Detailed pixel art is not easy or quick for sure.

@Tusk_ why not try ultra low poly modeling one of the vehicles and ultra simplistic draw the vehicle? Do it a few times like maybe model the vehicle 3 times and draw it 3 times. Then compare. You'll learn a lot the first time. Learn some more the second time. So the third time you can use for your cost estimate. How long it takes to do that one vehicle and how much content you need for the game and how long it takes each way.

Just have fun with it. Try different styles. Go online and check out other games using simple 3d models and simple 2d art. See if one appeals to you then try it out for yourself. Keep it simple!

If you have any spare cash at all hire a pixel artist to create a highly simplified version of that vehicle and do the same for 3D. That can give you an idea of how to move forward.

 

Alright I will aim for Bro Force style graphics. Lets see how close I can come, I am watching some tutorials on pixel art it certainly looks doable.

 

Good luck. It certainly is doable. It's more the question of stamina. To keep on grinding out the graphics over the long haul until you have enough to create one full level. Then repeat that all over again for however many levels you plan to have. Of course if you reuse stuff heavily....

This is actually an ideal time for you to focus on the graphics workload. You're excited, highly motivated, energized by a dream. That all will help a lot.

Maybe you will turn out to be one of the greatest undiscovered pixel artists of all time. Anything is possible.

 

are there any valid reasons to be using a software other than photoshop to create my pixel art? I am using photoshop and it seems fine. Though time consuming but fine like say Aseprite is it better than photoshop?

 

Tools like Aesprite will typically come with a more robust animation toolset with features like onionskinning and the like that'll make your life a lot easier, especially as a beginner. That said though, around half the pixel artists I know work in photoshop so ymmv

 

So 2D graphics are conceptually simpler, you just draw frames in Photoshop or other 2D art program. However, I find 3D art is easier to pull off if you're not a good artist. 3D definitely takes more time, and more skills to learn, but ends up being more flexible in the long run. However, if you are going for a Metal Slug game and don't have game development experience, I'd recommend starting with 2D so you can learn how games are made before jumping to 3D.

One app (that I admittedly haven't used) is Spine, which will let you import 2D art and then animate it with bones similar to 3D. This saves on having to draw each frame by hand, and is sort of the best of both worlds. Check it out:
http://esotericsoftware.com/

 

Hey what do you guys think about Krita? the other software you have to pay for and Krita is free. But is it as good as Pyxel Edit? Does one need the animation feature in these programs?

 

In case you didn't know, Humble Bundle is currently offering a selection of game dev tools at very affordable price.
You will get Pyxel Edit & Spriter Pro at the lowest tier ($1).
Pay above the average you will get Marmoset Hexels and several other tools (currently $6.91)
SpriteIlluminator also looks useful, but that is at the highest tier ($10).

 

It depends.

There is high-resolution, hand-drawn pixel art (like in Japanese RPG's), and there is primitive-based, low-resolution modeling (as in Minecraft).

The fastest way to make a game is to modify an existing game engine through authored tools, like RPGMaker or making a game mod.

In my experience, the time any piece of artwork takes is proportional to how good you are and how much you care about the final product.

Your mileage will vary greatly.

 

I for one, despite the "simplicity" of pixel art, don't usually get what I call "acceptable" results with it. But if I use Blender, with the proper shaders and correct render settings, I can get "acceptable" results. I can't go very low resolution though, and I don't model anything with high detail as it would end up looking like noise. But for me I can take very good advantage of the 3d environment and Blender capabilities. I can use the whole modifier suite to my advantage, which you can't do if you expect to export 3d models. It is also easy to make changes, in materials, animations, lighting, etc... and just re-render and you are done.

Another thing I like about doing 3d renders for sprites is that I can also render out a normal map. The normal material method I use requires that the model itself not be using any normal-maps for the materials because the "normal-map render" material can't account for that, only accounting for actual geometry. But you can easily get around that be doing some subdivision modifier combined with a displacement map of where the bumps would be. Then, you can use normal maps on your sprites and get pretty nice results.

As far as software, if I were to force myself to do pixel art, I would use Cosmigo Pro Motion to do it. Something like photoshop is close to the worst thing you can use for low-rez pixel art in my opinion, not because it can't do it, but because other software is simply much better at it. Pro Motion has tools for palettes, animations, tilemaps, and the actual drawing tools are nice too.

 

thank you I had no idea, gonna buy some stuff there. Didn't know it was so cheap I could certainly afford $1

 

It's also worth considering gameplay. 3D adds some extra complexity if you are just learning to code.

It's not huge, but it's not trivial either.

 

Well look at this Marmoset Hexels looks incredibly unique. Watching some videos of this here Oh my word!!

Has anyone seen this as yet? looks like some kind of super grid hexagonal type of pixel art which could likely make for better than the average pixel art it also seems to have a built in ability to allow for better details with less effort

 

Ok so I am looking at these software this guy linked me on humble bundle and I am really impressed at how well these stuff are tuned for what I need. Photoshop is a big huge complicated software that I never got the hang off, but when I look at videos for these indie software they seem so simple and designed to get the work done so fast. Almost like its too good to be true hmmm

 

Well then I bought the Pyxel Edit package for $1 so that should be enough for me. wasn't sure if Hexels would have any advantage to warrant an additional $6

If anyone feels that it does then feel free to let me know

 

Dunno about you guys but its odd how good this game looks and its only 16x16 pixels

http://store.steampowered.com/app/386340/

 

This guy manages turns BROFORCE (similar to Metal Slug) into an isometric perspective using Hexels.
It's very good IMO

Hexels also have a timeline editor, I'm not sure whether Pyxel have them? I just paid the average and plan on learning Hexels as time goes on. It could add a different style to your game. Hexel is also made by Marmoset, and so far I've not been disappointed by their product. Pyxel is still in Beta.

To answer your first post, with no artistic skills whats so ever I found that I could model faster than draw (at an acceptable quality, albeit a low one).

 

I think it depends on the individual. For me 3D is much much easier than 2D, talking purely of the art side.
Mainly because of the tools that have become always more easy and experimental friendly, you can mold the model like clay until you get it. With 2D either you get it or don't, sure you can make changes there too, but it's not much different than erasing and redo it. Plus once you get a frame right you must redo all the other frames.
That is unless you go for some puppet like 2D which look like crap for my tastes, may be suited for few genres only.
2D is much harder and expensive to get it right, that's why anime is becoming always more often 3D cel shaded in low budget production, once you get the model right you can add tons of content easily while with 2D you restart from scratch every time.

But since you are talking of a platformer, probably 2D is much easier in this case both for programming and art.

 

Colors and lighting. Quite possibly some of that shader voodoo going. Probably can be condensed to simply lighting (the lights are colored I believe). Without the lighting FX it would look like the normal pixel art games you are used to seeing.

On a related note I checked into lighting in 2D and with sprites at one point over the past couple of years thinking it might be a low cost way to improve the visuals.

However, despite the products saying "easily add lighting" it was not. It involved creating normal maps as I recall which only added more time (not to mention was tedious IIRC) to the graphics as usual. I guess overall it might be a good cost to benefit ratio for some folks so you can always check it out. Seems like one thing I checked out was named SpriteLamp or something like that.

I think it would be great for a game where everything is solid color rectangles so adding in the additional work to support lighting would be offset by the minimum time spent creating rectangles.

 

So you are saying that to do the fancy lighting like he did to the bullets etc is actually difficult and time consuming? any reason why? are you sure about this? it looks like it should be a matter of clicking a button to activate some sort of glow to the effects?

 

When I looked into it I ended up at product pages for a few products / assets that centered around creating normal maps for the sprites. That created additional work which resulted in additional time. I guess i shouldn't have said not easy. It wasn't actually hard but it was additional work & time.

If spending more time is not a problem for you definitely check it out. And yes I do remember finding shaders that could be used to generate all kind of cool FX. But those weren't really interactive type of stuff IIRC. More like static FX affecting only the objects it was used on. Like making this sprite have a glow. That sprite look like it was on fire, etc.

Other people more familar with all of this modern wizardry can provide more info on it than I can. I just noticed nobody had commented so threw out the bit I was familiar with.

If you just want glow FX and stuff like that affecting only a bullet or whatever you apply it to then it would be a shader. You will find some awesome packs on asset store for that kind of thing.

 

Ooh well that is certainly a new thing I learned here indeed.

@hippocoder might be able to elaborate further on this FX Glow thingy, the guy said MegaShpere was created using Unity

So it looks like UE4 might have its uses after all I guess its stuff like this is why people say UE4 has better graphics out of the box without needing to spend money on assets.

Unless this glow could be created without needing to buy the assets. hmm

 

Yeah I think that is likely just shaders but again not my area of expertise by any means. Honestly if I was trying to do such a thing I would manually be adding the glow FX to all of the graphics so they are actually part of the image as semi-transparent colors. BUT a big part of that is that I don't like working in the Editor much to begin with so anything I have to do in there (which is basically all assets like shaders, etc) starts out with like a 4 out of 10 motivation rating to begin with. lol You may love working in the Editor. Everybody is different.

Like I said, I don't know much about this stuff but anyway, this is the thing I was talking about for dynamic lighting FX: Sprite Lamp.

And here is one inexpensive asset on the store you may find useful: NextGen Sprites $5

I had found an interesting one that had a fire FX and many others but I didn't find it now. I just remember the FX all looked very high quality. The fire FX was all around the character and rising above it a short ways. I imagine it is on the store somewhere.

 

You can do all that with Unity's post fx. You didn't think that game was for mobile did you?

 

If you are going to learn all of this from the ground up, learn all these talents and take two years to build a game.. why build a clone of a game that will be in the $1 bin by the time your game gets released.

 

I didn't think it was for mobile at all, but thats good news that it can be done with Unity's post fx

 

Well you've seen the Adam demo so duh 2D is 3D, just flat.

 

Well my plan is not a exact clone at all, but what I am doing is a Metal Slug but with time travel, so at certain areas you could travel through time within the same stage and get a different gun or some other benefit and the stage will look like it was before the war that destroyed it etc

Right now I am learning the Unity and the Drawings, before I actually attempt the project I want to make sure I can work fast and I know the UI etc

I am looking at a number of these indie games to get some ideas so I could possibly combine it all.

 

@GarBenjamin I believe I found an article about it

http://www.alkemi-games.com/a-game-of-tricks/

Also check out his site

http://www.antonkudin.me/megasphere/

 

That seems like the same kind of technique I read about elsewhere. I only skimmed the articles because it sounded like a bunch of gobbedly gook to me but I imagine in practice it can't be too difficult considering the number of beginner games that use fancy FX. Unless they are all using assets from the store.

Although it does have me wondering about doing that in AGK2 now because I seem to remember seeing a command you use to turn on lighting mode for a sprite to react to light somehow.

EDIT: Nope all it has is support for shaders for the sprites. I've tested so many game oriented programming languages and engines in the past year or so they all start to run together in my head after a while. But something out there has such a command. lol

Seems like shaders are the big deal thing everyone uses for making things look better. I may have to look into them one day if I ever get bored.