[Rational Debate Thread] The Anti-Steam Pro-Steam Thread

For anyone interested, the topic is relating to Steam and how it effects Consumers and Developers. You can find the thread this spawned from here:
http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/buying-anything-during-steam-sale.252778/page-2

To prevent further derailing of a hot topic (Steam / Valve) , I decided to create this thread along with a compilation of arguments already proposed in another thread. (Second post reserved to hold the record of arguments. If at any point you disagree with how your stance is quoted, a simple post or PM will suffice to change it to help clarify any confusion.)

In an effort to be fair and actually give everyone a chance to have effective communication (where we can actually change minds, agree to disagree, and listen to one another) I will compile not a right/wrong set of information, but a Statement/Rebuttal + Reasoning (using direct quotes) for each individual topic.



I request that all further argument be in this format:

• Topic
  Argument
  .
  1. Point
     • Rebuttal Stance
     • Rebuttal (Reasoning)
       .
  2. Point
     • Rebuttal Stance
     • Rebuttal (Reasoning)
       .
  3. Point
     • Rebuttal Stance
     • Rebuttal (Reasoning)
       .

I'm sure there are better formats, but I do not know of any so I figure we can at least try this way to be more effective in communication and reduce the amount of things we say to a minimum of just "the facts" or just "rational logic".


In this way, we can cut to the meat of what is being said, hold people accountable for ignoring key points in others' arguments, and require participants to do more than simply say "You are wrong" as they must explain their reasoning. As in, WHY you are wrong.


Here is an example of the format. Please note it is nothing more than an example.

• Capitalism
  Capitalism is Evil
  .
  1. The Rich Prosper while the Poor Suffer
     • AGREE (Anti-Capitalism)
     • Blah blah blah, and so while the wealthy keep money and never lose it, the poor are trapped in slavery.
       .
  2. The Poor Suffer, because they cannot rise out of poverty.
     
     • AGREE (Anti-Capitalism)
     • They are trapped in poverty because big business does stuff blah blah blah blah. That is why they cannot rise out of poverty.
       .
  3. Capitalism helps the populous become more prosperous.
     • DISAGREE
     • The nations which are prospering or suffering are doing so because of OTHER reasons. These include: Aftermath of World War 2, That thing that happened in 1867. The advancement of technology. Space Alien Mind Control.
       .
  4. Space Alien Mind Control
     • DISAGREE (Capitalism helps the populous become more prosperous).
     • During the events at Roswell New Mexico....alien mind control blah blah...and that is why you see capitalist nations prosper while other nations fall.
       .
  5. An unknown alternative to Capitalism and other Failed Systems would be better.
     • NEUTRAL (Capitalism helps the populous become more prosperous).
     • I agree that other systems have failed and they suck. However, Capitalism also sucks just as much. We need to be anti-capitalist, so we can have a better system.
       .

In this way, we can focus on the talking points, clarify our stance (you can put whatever you want, just something brief to clarify your stance on the subject), provide the meat of our reasoning for that stance, and then reply to people "You never addressed my Point #3!"

You can type anything you want, but saying "DISAGREE" and then "Because you're just wrong." will show everyone your argument is weak, so please be encouraged to add substance to your claims.


The purpose of this thread is not to scream and rant on soap boxes, but to legitimately attempt to listen to the opposition, hear their arguments, and then agree or agree to disagree.
A record of reasoning will be established, which has the goal of changing the minds of those open to logic and rational (no matter what side you're on) as well as point out the weakness of others' arguments to prevent lofty internet armchair warriors from walking away thinking they "dominated that guy so hard" when in reality failed to provide adequate rebuttals. Of course, who won will merely be a matter of opinion, as always in a debate.

 

~*Reserved for Record*~


Honestly, I do not care enough about this conversation (nor the people who apparently are too ignorant to understand how DRM does not actually protect developers) to actually format the old thread. That is a lot of work. I think instead, I will use the above formatting to create new threads in the future or respond to other's posts in that way. Then I can encourage the formal formatting. That is, when I have time to actually post.

I'm losing hope that some users here even have the cognitive capability to have their mind changed. If they are so ignorant of the reality of piracy, cracking, and the pointlessness of DRM...no argument could change their mind.
It would require them to have a basic understanding of how the world works. Living in a "DRM helps protect us! " fairytale reality prohibits rational logic or effective debate to change their minds.

Why do I get the feeling this is like arguing with one of those crazy conservatives about how 99.99% of scientists state global warming is man-made.

/thread

I'd rather work on my game to be honest.

 

I'm not seeing anything this thread is breaking..?

 

Can we just debate using one big run-on sentence instead?

 

The rules I think it violates are:

Due to the direct comparison to capitalism, and use of it in the "example". Come on, it's even in the title.

It's already not Unity related, hardly game related and verging on relating only to political styles. Not to mention debates are entirely pointless as we all know everyone enters with their opinions and no one will change it. It can only end with a argument or just stopping participating.

I don't make the rules and it doesn't bother me, just pointing it out.

 

Any chance we could steer this into a UE4 is better than UT4 conversation so it can get locked down...groan.
There has to be some pro-socialist site that this drivel would be more at home.

 

This topic doesn't have anything to do with game development or game related discussion. I've not locked it, but it's not typically what Unity wants to see, and another mod may or may not choose to lock it - just a heads up!

 

I deleted all my posts except for the final one that gives my opinion on why it should be locked.

 

Topic: This Thread
Argument: This Thread doesn't have anything to do with game development or game related discussion.
.

1. The example proves this thread breaks the rules.
   • DISAGREE (Pro-Thread)
   • The example is nothing more than an example. I am not someone who believers Capitalism is evil. I used other's arguments and ALIEN MIND CONTROL as examples. There is nothing wrong with an example, when the topic has absolutely nothing to do with the example's contents. The content of the example was pulled from another thread relating to the discussion of Steam.
     .
2. The title proves this thread is about Capitalism, and thus breaks the rules.
   • AGREE (Pro-Thread)
   • I have already stated in multiple (now deleted) posts that I have reported the title to be changed, because the title does not properly reflect the topic. The original topic is about Pro-Steam / Anti-Steam. There is no need to mention the title anymore until it is changed.
     .
3. This thread does not relate to Unity or Game Development or Games.
   • STRONGLY DISAGREE
     
   • Steam Sales are not Unity related either. Crytek engine is not Unity related, but game engine related. Oh, so perhaps game engines are related to Unity? Steam is the biggest contender in PC gaming, so by that logic it is even more related to Unity (a game engine which makes PC games) than Crytek engine. It is the platform in which you sell Unity games. It is a business standard among indie developers. I could go on, but this argument suffices. Steam is related to PC gaming like Sony and Microsoft are related to console gaming.
     .
4. This thread verges on relating to ONLY political styles.
   • STRONGLY DISAGREE
   • The primary topic has nothing to do with politics, but has to do with Steam. It is even arguable that economic system has little to deal with politics. Economic systems can directly determine sales of video games, indie developer income, and small businesses related to the game industry. Your argument is that this is verging on ONLY being about Capitalism, yet the primary topic is Steam. How can a secondary topic relating to a primary topic, become the ONLY topic? This just doesn't fit right.
     .
5. Debating is Pointless
   • VEHEMENTLY DISAGREE
   • The entire point of this thread is to do the exact opposite as you claim. By attempting to provide an accurate, formal formatting which works directly with rational argument and argument substance, it is quite possible to convince others to change their mind. According to your logic, we should only ever agree, or simply not communicate. If debate has never changed anyone's mind, it is entirely pointless to talk to anyone about...well...most topics. Obviously, debate does indeed change people's minds. It can change their entire perspective on the world.
   .

 

So what do you guys think of the formatting?

 

@CarterG81

Very noble but...

It will devolve anyway though, nature of the beast.

Besides, everyone already knows capita... I mean Steam, rocks!!

 

We should at least try. It can work if everyone agrees to ignore anyone who does not follow the proper formatting.

That should at least weed out the people too lazy to provide rational substance in their arguments.

Perhaps it will result in failure or a lack of adequate responses. However, I would hope to think the remaining arguments might help to change the mind of the hundreds of lurkers which exist (oddly enough, as I always find the number of lurkers to be so mind-boggling high!).

At the very least, it helps me to shorten my posts while staying concise in clarifying my point, and toning down on the aggression by simply smiling (rather than pulling my hair) when irrational users are incapable of explaining their reasoning.

 

It's worth a shot but in the end I think it just ends up like this...
Wrong on the Internet

... and I've learned the hard way to just go to bed.

 

Aint that the truth.

How many hours went by when I tried to do this? lmao

My poor game, so neglected

 

I object to this thread as it is obviously not thought out at all as a debating format. It lacks people writing in caps, particularly as it regards damnation of socialism and/or deities.

A proper debate on the internet needs someone to focus on an inconsequential detail of a long post: ie if you write about Unity 4 v UE 4, someone must focus on CryEngine in a conspiracy-theorist way. Of course, the derail must be written in caps.

To continue here, someone must deify Unity, Unreal and Crytek. The same someone must also find a supporting or opposing quote from Richard Dawkins, which can be suitably arraigned in a rant about Edward Snowden's status as a traitor or not toward a government machine that may or may not have gone off the track.

Please redo.

 

"Tried"? You are still clearly trying to do that. If you don't like Steam, don't use it. Stop wasting your time trying to convince everyone that they are evil and just get on with your life.

 

Holy hell, you argue so much that you made a new thread just to argue. On top of that, you are teaching people to argue! Seriously dude, you are taking it too far and now it's very annoying. Please, you rebuke too much and that shows you lack team work wHich is bad for game development. Work on your game or something and stop getting into arguments

 

I am unable to read any post with more that 100 words

 

Steam is fine.

So... putting your game or games up on Steam?

 

I cant really see why you wouldnt want to put your games on steam. The only reason you might not want to your game on steam is that maybe your game isnt "good enough" -- now you might say I want to get my game on there regardless -- but if there are too many "bad games" on steam getting your game on steam will have less and less impact. If they allow any old game on steam than it becomes the google play where no one except the people who get press are going to get any downloads at all.

I bet everyone would be ecstatic if valve actually does away with the approval process and opens the floodgates -- until it actually happens.

 

This is why the thread was created. I will be putting forth my argument in the correct format so as to show why I believe we should be supporting other platforms to sell our games. I just need the time to do it, as im not at my computer now. Hopefully by the end of reading it, regardless if you still disagree or agree, you will be able to at least see why some people oppose drm. Er I mean Steam

 

I'm pretty sure every single gamer on the internet already knows why some people oppose DRM. Trying to find a gamer who has never read an anti-drm rant would be like trying to find a Facebook user who has never seen a picture of a cat.

 

Oddly enough, many of the same people who are like "Yea! I Hate DRM!" are also the same ones who are like "Yea! I love Steam! Down with DRM!" Meanwhile, they will be the same ones saying "Yea! Origin & U-Play suck! Down with DRM!"

I think many people don't even realize Steam is DRM, because it's more subtle DRM than some of the insane practices we've seen in the past, like with Sim City. *shudders* Either that, or most people truly are idiots. Something I really don't want to believe. (I prefer a more optimistic, positive outlook on people's irrational decisions or hypocrisy in their beliefs, etc.)


Anyways, there are far greater reasons to prefer vendor alternatives to Steam. DRM is not the only reason why. However, it's a good enough reason for most people who are Anti-Steam.

GoG is amazing. They are a No-DRM, Refund-Friendly business. They are also Economy-Friendly (friendly to other nations whose currency is worth less), and just full of all kinds of integrity. They aren't about the greed, they are about the quality service and games. Steam is just one big obsession with greed, squeezing every penny out of consumers that they can...even if it means promoting a scam. If that weren't true, they'd be more like GoG. A business which has all the integrity, and doesn't suffer financially because of it. Steam could hold themselves to the same ethical standards, yet they don't. If they did, that means slightly less money. You can't have that! After all, if Steam sells you a broken game, it's YOUR fault for not doing your research first. If they give out refunds, you'll end up getting games for FREE! I mean, it's not like you can already do that or anything. At least according to some Steam supporters anyway, that's the logic because the unethical policies set in place. Oh wait...you're protected by European law? Nevermind we are so refund friendly yay go ethics! We are so pro-ethics. Ohhhh, you're NOT from the EU? Hahahaha, those pennies are ours! Ethics? Pfffft! TROLOLOL!


It will take me some time, but I will dig into that other thread and put all the arguments together in the proper format...but it needs to wait until I have the hours it'll take to do that.

 

We should be developing our own shop, for indie games that is curated to have some standards, that doesn't allow in aaa developers, we know that eventually that steam is going to open the proverbial floodgates at some point. Someone should do it, how hard could it be get a rotating panel of judges, you can't vote for your own games, a shopping cart system etc, we just need to get a big e celebrity judge on the panel every now and then to get some press.

 

You just described every successful business and most unsuccessful ones. I plan to squeeze every penny out of the consumers of my games as possible too. I certainly don't plan to give away all my hard work. If you spent as much time working on your own game as obsessing over steam and trying to get people to hate it, you would have several titles finished and could be squeezing all the pennies you can get as well.

 

you should spend less time splurtting your opinions over the net, and work on some game development.

Don't see the point in wasting hours on a pointless argument. Its comparable to trying to convince religious folk that evolution dis-proves what they believe.

I would ask what you suggest we use, but I really dont care what you think.

Steam is convenient as hell, drm is irrelevant to me, and a large base of users on here I expect. I dont care about DRM since I'm no longer a 13 year old that cant afford the games I want.

 

Publishers set the prices on Steam not Valve and there's a tier based system in Europe.

You know why people hated Uplay? Cause it was ALWAYS on. Their servers went down? Lose your progress from the last save point and get booted from the game. You lost connection? Same deal. Their servers are down? Can't launch your game. Uplay servers got DDOS'd one weekend and nobody could play the games they paid for. None of that happens with Steam.

Stop trotting out EU law. It doesn't straight up work the way you imply it does. You can't get a refund for something that's S***. Scam scam scam. Beyond the WarZ what else do you have? Earth 2066? And that was pulled and refunds offered as well once it shown to be so.

I'm not disagreeing that Valve needs some quality control and to take responsibility for what it sells but the consumer also has a responsibility for what they buy. What other things do people just throw money at? Do you just expect to go throw money at a wall without looking at it first?

 

I do care about DRM administration as it gets in the way. For example Steam blocked Skyrim on because I tried to play it on a different computer. Steam is very buggy and more awkward than anything else. Death to Steam.

 

Are you a software developer?

Have you ever written bug free code?

WRONG! you havnt. No developer ever has.

The biggest problem I've ever had with steam is re-installing it on a new drive. That process can be painful. Which, yeah yeah, is at least partially the DRM stuff getting in the way...

 

I don't notice DRM on many games and the ones that I do notice on tend to suck anyway which I care about more than DRM. I'm apathetic about steam and use them out of convenience. I'm certainly not going to blame steam because I bought a suck-ass game. I tried going the route of buying direct, but as someone who buys lots of games, that got really, really tedious and way too much to maintain and I ended up playing them less because I couldn't remember where I bought them from and didn't re-download them.

 

Most developers will not allow their games to be sold on GoG for exactly that reason. Steam didn't add DRM just to annoy you personally; they added it because their partners (the actual game developers) demand it. If you ever develop a game of your own and try to sell it, I think you will start to see why DRM is important. If you ever end up with a family to support, or you end up hiring other employees and are responsible for ensuring they can keep their jobs and feed their own families, you may also start to see that the fiction of a company that "doesn't care" about profits is not the moral high ground you think it is.

 

roflmao, wow, just wow.

I'd point you towards any article on why DRM is pointless, but apparently according to your own words "every single gamer on the internet already knows why some people oppose DRM".

However, it appears you don't know why. Very strange...

"Most Developers" are not these mentally challenged monkeys you apparently think they are. That is not the reason their games are not sold on GoG. As if "most developers" don't sell their games on GoG because they oppose GoG.............oi vei...

 

I use steam because its easy to use, any game that is released on PC, whether it be AAA or indie, is probably on steam. Which means I have all my games in one place, and steam handles things like installing and such for me. Does it dominate the other services like it? Yes. Why? Because things like UPlay and Origin are specific to those companies games only, meaning all my games are not there for easy access. Not to mention that means my friends who are on steam are not going to be able to know if I go online and such. Then you have GoG, which I personally don't use. From what I see it's more on the indie side which is great, but as said without some form of DRM (which steam only needs a internet connection to buy games, to use them without internet you have offline mode...) big publishers and indies who do want some form of protection won't go to. Then again, the friend thing. By this time if another program comes out like steam but better, then yea I'll use it. But probably won't switch, because by this time I have over 90+ games on steam and I going away from that would be ridiculous.

 

Obviously a business should care about profits. Not being a greedy disturbing evil a-hole who worships money is entirely another way to go about it, far above "caring about profits" or "protecting your employee's families".

You sound like someone who would be okay with criminal behavior because it "supports your family and keeps them fed."
I don't care if I am verging on being homeless. I am not going to murder people for food. I won't resort to selling drugs to supply my family with resources. Some people value integrity and don't worship money.
If you think that person is stupid when they die of starvation because they had to stick to their morals and values, I feel sorry for you.

If I had a company, which I do, those I employ would be fully aware that the consumer comes first. I actively try to discourage people who would enter the business for the wrong reason. Those greedy types are not welcome. Does that hurt us? No, it actually helps because we don't hire the greedy a-holes who love fraud. The care of the consumer and the health of our populous is the entire point of some organizations, and some career fields.

You can argue with me until you are blue in the face that you don't lack integrity by stating it is a good thing for people to do unethical things, but that just goes to show how little you know about integrity or ethics. You can fully support something, but ignoring or denying the flaws is just lunatic. You're better off arguing the flaws are not significant or that the good outweighs the bad. That is an argument you can be justified in having, without compromising your integrity.

What you see as moral highground, is what I see as "a basic set of morals so we don't exploit powerless human beings." I'm not the only person in the world who believes we shouldn't worship the almighty dollar.

Off topic, you seem to have a very naive worldview despite how practical you apparently think you are being by focusing on "the families and employees". Many big businesses could care less for their employees. Some even harm their employees more than they harm the consumer.
There are also good businesses which abide by integrity and ethics, which make great profit.

Hence why GoG is successful and expanding. They aren't going bankrupt due to their lack of greed. It turns out that when you treat people well...people like that.

 

All your other points are very valid and I agree.

The one I disagree in, is that you act as if this DRM protection actually protects developers...

I naturally assume that most users on here are developers. Developers who understand basic common sense when it comes to DRM and piracy.

DRM literally does nothing but make it more difficult for those who buy the game to play the games. Pirates are free of DRM, with it being cracked days before release. DRM literally does nothing to stop pirates. Literally nothing. It does not even make it more difficult to access the games. Pirates have an easier time playing games than people who pay for the games directly.

 

Steam obviously sells games that are DRM free. They advertise them. So it's not steam that's demanding it. Steam is just a reseller.

 

I honestly do not have it in me to educate people on the pointlessness of DRM for developers.

There are hundreds of articles explaining why DRM is not effective in any way at protecting developers.
One need only to go to any torrent site to see a newly released game, leaked and cracked, days before release.

Since this debate would require me to educate people on the very basics of piracy vs. DRM, I honestly do not have it in me to participate. I came into this discussion assuming people here were developers who had a basic understanding of selling PC games.

I have requested this thread to be locked. While I still believe a properly formatted argument style would be effective, the amount of work required on my part greatly exceeds the desired goal.

 

Then don't

 

Ahh, damn. That's too bad for us moron developers, we need a person like you to gift us some of your omniscient knowledge since you're an all knowing god.

 

So take it up with the huge publishers who use DRM and not us. Or take it up with steam. I'm fully informed about DRM and honestly don't really care one way or the other. All you are is a mild amusement since I have dev block and I find your flailing around amusing so please entertain... err educate us further.

 

The level of immaturity here is beyond disappointing.
The level of ignorance is beyond disgusting.

I do not go into any of your threads to talk about how much of a "hateful troll" you are for having a passionate stance on an important issue. In fact, I do not even label you as trolls. I merely click "ignore" and am done with it.

Ironic, as the hateful people would be the ones who instead of ignoring the user, feel the need to follow every post they make in attempts to condemn them, insult them, or otherwise discuss them in a negative manner. If you want to insult me, you could at least do so while arguing the talking points.

Also ironic, as I am defending each and every one of you because you are consumers of Steam. If you were ever to be scammed by a broken game or something akin to WAR Z, I would be behind you demanding your refund or assisting you with what you need to do if they break consumer protection laws. Why would anyone oppose the desire to do away with the archaic, greedy no-refund policy of digital game sales? It's lunacy. In what way do you benefit from such an anti-consumer policy? It would not surprise me if you were also hardened tea party members.

If you feel that I am an idiot, a troll, or a hateful person, please do me the favor of adding me to your ignore list. That is preferable over responding to all my posts about Steam with derogatory remarks or blatant trolling.

Then you have irrational arguments concluding in things like "Or take it up with steam." What do you think I am doing here? Wow, just wow. How daft can a person be.

I PM'd a moderator, this thread will be locked. It is incredible how childish and hateful so many of you are being. Please though, continue as much as you want to follow any posts I make here and bash me. Since you are on ignore, I will not even be aware of them unless I see the "Show Ignored Content" link and mistakenly decide to give you another shot.

 

I actually have written a bug free program once. It was a hello world and intended to be run once on my computer.
Steam DRM has slapped me in the face repeatedly and their customer support is robotic and unhelpful. Ever tried to play a game offline and Steam randomly decides you need in be in online mode to play? Happens a lot when I am on holiday or working away from home.

 

Yes, yes it is incredible how childish some posters here are. And entertaining!

 

\_/

This is my care cup. I use it to store all the care in this one cup. Notice how it's empty.

 

It's not empty. It's full of white space!

 

Hahahaha, even more disheartening is that before I was even able to get the time to format the old thread and pull it all together in the second post...I was demotivated by all of the troll kids. Why oh why, did I think "Show Ignored Content" was a good idea?

So many Steam fanboys, and apparently developers who insist that DRM protects them.

Just wanted to respond and say you were right the entire time
I knew you were, but...it happened a little quicker than I thought it would, lol.

 

Look, this is really a great community, you've just used troll bait. Perhaps you didn't mean to, but ya did and ya gt a little burnt. But ask a real question bout Unity or programming or art creation and you will find no end of help. Start a topic to whine about steam which several developers here sell on is just bad form. You're bad mouthing people's jobs man. And that ain't cool.

 

I never for a second said "Never sell on Steam." I said we should be willing and actively attempting to promote companies with better policies, such as GoG.

However, I never even got around to presenting my argument due to all the irrational Steam fanboyism which flooded this thread.

I also was demotivated to even try, because it seems that even developers here fail to grasp the basic concepts of piracy v. DRM. No one should have to educate others on that. It's common sense... what kind of bubble do these people live in? I KNOW it's not the same bubble the AAA executives live in.

I honestly wish moderators would just ban the people who come into threads or follow specific users just to call them trolls and further fuel the flames of hatred.


It's a sad day for this community when a user cannot even fill their ignore list fast enough to prevent being demotivated from all the trolling simply for opposing a business which has some questionable ethics and a near-monopoly on PC gaming.
Literally, I could not even add the users fast enough to sift through the chaff. So many trolls, among morons, among ignorant people, among intelligent people who just disagree. You don't want to ignore the people who just disagree or the ignorant ones, but you can't click "Ignore" on everyone until you find out if they're a troll, a moron, ignorant, or intelligent but disagree.

Some people here made great points as to why Steam is A-Okay. Those people were lost in the flood of irrational, mindless fanboyism.

 

Just add to ignore. Feeding the troll just makes it worse.

 

No one is saying DRM is awesome except you sarcastically. We're saying it's not worth getting all worked up over like this. Sure, get angry, write a scathing review of how DRM screwed you on a specific game. I've been bitten by DRM, but then I just played something else until it as resolved, and it always is. I've NEVER had a game that I couldn't play at all from steam. Never and I've bought a crap ton of games from them. But steam does indie developers a lot more good than it does harm to players. In my experience they work hard to build a bridge between developers and players and I've never been displeased with the service they've provided. To use your own logic against you, just because you've had a bad experience, you think that everyone must have had a bad experience and just because you had one bad game with DRM issues, all games must have DRM issues.

But you're still amusing. And I still have developer block and am bored while my latest steam game downloads.