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Questions for preparing for a game

Discussion in 'Game Design' started by SoundStormLabs, Nov 11, 2017.

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  1. SoundStormLabs

    SoundStormLabs

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    In some time I'm going to be looking for a partner for a new multiplayer game to develop and release on the android market for around $350+40% revenue (10% will be used to pay for things like server storage and assets), and if possible, to wrap the coding for Steam. Although I have done 3D modeling for product design, I haven't done it much for games, so I would like to know how to set it up to be ready for the coder.

    One feature is different skins that the player can unlock for creatures with different abilities. However, instead of entire skins, characters unlock "pieces" of skins frequently. This project would likely be done in initially in Unity due to its cross-platforming and capabilities with 3D models. So, how would I set up models purely from the 3D modeling software to allow this system where different meshes can be swapped out in a larger mesh but still retain the same animations, assuming some degree of simplicity in the connecting vertices?
    I do not like the idea of breaking up something like a joint of an arm and a leg into two descrete pieces that simply rotate superimposed over each other, I want the vertices of the joint to be connected into a single mesh and still rotate with the armature as one continuous mesh because that is more realistic and would also allow the mapping of the texture to look proper. I want to be able to use the armature or vector curves within my own software or at least have an equivalent setup. And, how many vertices could a platform game with multiple animated creatures handle before needing to worry about graphic latency in the user's device?

    I also have both aftereffects and I would prefer to create particle systems in aftereffects since it is more efficiently focused on that capability, but how would I "save" or "export" a 3D particle explosion in aftereffects to be usable in a unity game?

    Another attribute I was thinking is to use cubic tiles in the 3D environment, though the game could also be done as a 2D platformer. However, since the game environment itself will be manipulable, would tiles actually be worse since physics and animation effects would be applied to each individual tile?

    Thanks,
    SSL
     
  2. Martin_H

    Martin_H

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    None of those are game design questions. The thread should probably be moved to general graphics.

    Vertex count isn't the most important thing to watch out for. Especially mobile can be tricky with things like fillrate and drawcalls, but I can't tell you much about optimizing for mobile.

    After Effects won't help you with the particles unless you render them out into sprite-sheets which in many cases will not be a good idea for various reasons. Unity's particle system is relatively easy to learn, so don't worry.

    It sounds like you haven't thought the game's concept through well enough quite yet to start hiring people. Starting out with a multiplayer game is also a bad idea. You should reconsider how you can turn it into a singleplayer game in my opinion.

    It's good you intend to have at least some amount of fixed rate pay for your partner, but it will be really hard to find someone really good for that amount, but you'll still probably get tons of applications from scammers who sense a quick buck to grab but don't intend on ever finishing the project. I don't think you'll have much luck in that budget range.

    Finding partners for projects is hard. What I would recommend is try to get up to speed on all the state of the art 3D content generation workflows for games and then try to find a mutually beneficial relationship with a really good coder who needs a really good artist in a time for time cooperation deal. If you want someone's help who values their time at a proper freelancer hourly rate, you need to be able to provide either that money or something of equivalent value. Revenue shares are not that, most will consider them worthless. Good custom art is worth proper money. Make a simple contract that clearly sorts out rights of use and ownership for what both of you create.

    Good luck.
     
  3. TonyLi

    TonyLi

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    $350 will get you slightly under 1 day of work from a competent developer in the USA. Revenue share is typically viewed as a possible bonus, not part of the job's pay, since 99% of projects never make revenue. One day might get you the Steam wrapping if your developer is already familiar with the process.

    Consider building a prototype yourself using a visual scripting system such as PlayMaker. This will give you a chance to figure out your 3D modeling workflow, particle effects, tile system, gameplay design, etc., before bringing in a programmer.

    Or go to local meetups, volunteer on a couple small projects to show your ability to finish things, and then (as mentioned above) see if you can recruit a programmer to go in with you on a joint venture.
     
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  4. SoundStormLabs

    SoundStormLabs

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    I can see how people are trying to be helpful and normally I would appreciate that, but so far all I'm seeing is completely unhelpful due to the feedback's exceptionally irrelevant, opinionated and condescending nature, except for the one sentence that addresses part of what I asked about particles in Unity.
    I not here for random people to waste my time with lectures on off topic subjects, I'm here because I'm preparing months in advance for a project in my free-time in between publishing material and working with graduate colleagues on top of growing multiple businesses. I expected, based on this platform's reputation, that the quality of replies would have been higher. If this is not the appropriate site to seek technical information about preparing for games in Unity, feel free to suggest the proper platform.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2017
  5. Martin_H

    Martin_H

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    https://unity3d.com/learn
    https://docs.unity3d.com/Manual/index.html
    https://docs.unity3d.com/Manual/HOWTO-ArtAssetBestPracticeGuide.html
    https://docs.unity3d.com/Manual/OptimizingGraphicsPerformance.html

    You won't get a proper answer for those questions because you don't provide enough information about your usecase and target plattform. I'm confident it can be done somehow. Which way is the best will depend on different factors, like will drawcalls be already an issue or is there headroom to have a few extra ones? How many variants will there be? How big will texture sizes be? Can the shaders be the same or will parts need individual shaders? Can textures be stored as is or do you need to crunch their size by making them semi-procedural with substances and need more runtime computational time to access them? Etc. etc.. It's all about making tradoffs, generally the best person to choose those is you, because you're the one with the best idea of what the project will need. Most of the knowledge you need to get started is in the last 2 links I've provided above. Vertex count doesn't matter all that much in my humble experience, drawcalls are much more likely to be a problem for you. In the end profiling a proper build on a device is the only thing you can ever rely on for performance question.
     
  6. theANMATOR2b

    theANMATOR2b

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    Look into UMA from the asset store.
    Keep Vertex count for individual models inder 65k.
    For other (ae) questions - youll have to work out your own workflow and troubleshoot the process. A Point to be made though - Unity particles will be much more effecient and easier to implement because there already built into te engine - unless you are a pro fx artist.
     
  7. BIGTIMEMASTER

    BIGTIMEMASTER

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    Everything you got was "for free". Sheesh, if you don't appreciate free advice, just ignore it. Nobody owes you anything.

    I really doubt that your time is that valuable, but if you fancy yourself a big important businessman, here's some advice that may help in future: It's never useful to have enemies, but it always helps to have friends.

    So don't be so quick to take offense from people who mean well. If you have a big smart brain, it shouldn't be so sensitive.
     
  8. frosted

    frosted

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    A big important business man would also be able to spend more than $350 to make his project work.

    Actually reading through this, I think the problem is that OP doesn't have enough skill/experience to understand the responses he's getting. He doesn't understand that there isn't a clean answer and that he needs to figure out much more detail before he can effectively ask the right questions.

    This is very much correct.
     
  9. SoundStormLabs

    SoundStormLabs

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    Previous posts were borderline abrasive. All you're doing by trolling is ironically proving my point that the quality of the community is much lower than what the reputation of the sites brags.
    A business person would be generally be experienced or intuitive enough to compromise rationally between the price as well as revenue share (and most programmers in general are never, ever offered a % of profit from employers) and someone genuinely interested in an idea, proportionally to the scale of the project. Yet again, all anyone doing is proving what I said about the low quality of this community with your exceptionally condescending tone.

    I gave more than sufficient information to understand the options which I'm already exploring, it is only that you are carelessly imposing your own expectations of what other people's work should be rather than actually contributing. I guarantee you with 100% certainty larger successful businesses are not inefficient enough to have one person doing all possible tasks. It is always more productive for different people to specialize in different areas that contribute more efficiently to the overall goal.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2017
  10. SirTwistedStorm

    SirTwistedStorm

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    Honestly $350 is about 7 hours of work for a freelancer most likely less depending on experience... Have you ever made a game before? Your first project should never be multiplayer unless you want your dreams crushed, I'm not trying to be rude just implying that you should reevaluate your goal. Read up on creating 3D assets for games, if you do not wish to learn to code yourself then the Unity asset store can help I'd use that $350 there.

    Have a great day!
     
  11. SoundStormLabs

    SoundStormLabs

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    Yet again, I don't think you in particular were posting with the intent of being inappropriate here, but people like your don't even seem to see what the issue is that is only a detriment to the community. All I did was ask technical questions, and yet here you are randomly projecting your negative attitude from your own shortcomings onto someone else, and as a result, nothing you've said is helpful in any capacity whatsoever, you failed to address any of the actual questions I asked.

    $350 would be low if that was the only thing I would be offering (not that I am actually searching for a coder right now anyway, never said that I was), but offering more than that and nearly half of the profit is ridiculous enough, it should be one or the other if someone is either a true collaborator or contracted employee. Obviously the flat rate would be higher if there wasn't a profit share involved, but I've worked with people on projects after offering less than that, so I never asked for, nor care for anyone's personal opinion on that subject, it's not for you to worry about unless you'd actually like to negotiate privately.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2017
  12. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Hi, keep it civil all.
     
  13. BIGTIMEMASTER

    BIGTIMEMASTER

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    You don't have to write down everything you think, you know.

    Nobody likes being corrected or misjudged, but it won't do you any good to attack people and entire communities over it.

    About the original question -- I think you are probably asking the wrong audience. I'm no expert, but it seems the question could be boiled down to, "What are some methods for creating modular character accessory assets?"

    If I wanted to know the answer to that question, I would search places like polycount, zbrush central, or your 3d applications relevant forum.
     
  14. SirTwistedStorm

    SirTwistedStorm

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    Okay I'm sorry my comment wasn't useful. In my opinion there is useful information in this thread, and I don't find the community to be of low quality.

    40% of a mobile game is rather unappealing for most regular people as you have to add IAP to even make your money back. Big name studios charge $3 - $8 for a mobile game that had more than just a couple of developers and artists, indie mobile games are almost always free or under $3 for a reason.

    Now I don't know that much about 3D modeling but what I've seen from Korean mobile MMO's you would make separate meshes for the head/neck, torso, arms, and legs maybe also shoes. They would all have to share the same armature and would be combined via code in Unity and you could swap meshes during runtime then recombine.
     
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  15. nat42

    nat42

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    You are asking for individuals to help you in their free time, for no personal gain. With respect, why do you think these particular personal circumstances entitle you to anything? I think for example people trying to learn are more deserving of other's free (as in $) free(as in while not working) time than owners of multiple growing businesses with graduate colleagues.

    Suggest "Unity Collaborate" to find a partner with the requisite professionalism and experience, and asking them for their opinions on your concerns about the project - getting the opinions of a bunch of randoms seems to be a waste of everyone's time especially if you don't respect attempts to give you advice.
     
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  16. SoundStormLabs

    SoundStormLabs

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    Right, I asked for advice on technical questions, and instead of getting helpful answers, people like you continue to derail the topic and troll by projecting your unwarranted, arbitrary personal opinions resulting from your own failures and difficulties. Help is only help if it is actually helpful, otherwise you and others are simply treating this thread as scapegoat to vent your own frustrations from your own failures which is wholly in appropriate. Because of that, I definitely don't respect the majority of what others have said in this topic so far, nor should I, nor would I expect anyone else to.

    Again this is not the appropriate thread to discuss what you think is appealing about any given offer and as I already said, I am not actively seeking a collaborator for this project at this time. I've done deals like this before, I'm happy with them, I have both offered and accepted them, I didn't ask for your opinion about it. If you would like to negotiate, you're free to do that privately, otherwise you're just derailing the thread.

    See now that's what I'm thinking, but now there's more information to support it as a viable option, and Korea is definitely one of the mobile capitals of the world.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2017
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  17. nat42

    nat42

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    No one has "trolled" you.

    I answered sincerely your previous question, again - I refer you to "Unity Collaborate" to find the partner you describe seeking in your OP. I sincerely think that it would be appropriate to discuss your concerns with an individual willing to consider working with you.
     
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  18. SoundStormLabs

    SoundStormLabs

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    It's already verified that people have trolled me in this thread, and I am not currently looking for a partner, I am seeking some technical information to prepare a project for some months from now.
     
  19. nat42

    nat42

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    You described what you are looking for in terms of partnership, including exact payment and revenue split figures you are offering, and ask people to contact you privately to negotiate such a partnership.


    You accuse me (indirectly, but how else can I take: "people like you") of trolling and add a personal attack - "resulting from your own failures and difficulties"
     
  20. Joe-Censored

    Joe-Censored

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    If that is true, then why did you start your original post with you will be looking for a partner and even detailing the compensation? Most people start posts with the main point they are trying to convey instead of burying it.

    And just a quick comment from experience on that, even though you don't want to hear it, I've tried bringing on developers using revenue share or company shares as primary compensation and it doesn't go well. Projects don't get completed, or are of extremely low quality or non-functional, even when examples of their previous work look good.
     
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  21. eliGasious

    eliGasious

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    Depending on the project, none to a fair amount. If the project only requires models the former, and one with a lot of animations required for the latter.


    That's a cool idea, I'm excited to see in what context you implement this concept. I'm imagining the characters may lose a limb or getting different gloves etc, maybe not though.

    This is a lot of questions. Lets go through them:
    1?...how would I set up models purely from the 3D modeling software...
    A1 Depends on the scope of the project. but if i can be more specific I will be.

    2?...to allow this system where different meshes can be swapped out in a larger mesh ...
    A2 SirTwistedStorm already answered this one, when he recommended separate meshes.

    3?...but still retain the same animations, assuming some degree of simplicity in the connecting vertices...
    A3 This is one of those questions that needs other questions answered first. Many ways. You go on to say:

    Absolutely, does funny things to the appearance of intersecting meshes. I'd reply with, It's important to note and then ask: It's a mobile game, how much will those overlapping meshes adversely affect the aesthetics?

    You could animate the pieces to do that but, animating several tubed meshes (like the forearm or calf would be) could present a plethora of problems down the road.
    I'd recommend a central skeleton that's been rigged and animated, and attach the pieces to the rig in unity.

    What software are you using, or an equivalent setup to what? The software you're using (see previous question), or the overlapping meshes? I find that many skills are portable between a wide range of development tools, so it shouldn't matter much.

    Looks like this was answered by Martin_H

    Prototype it.
    Would they be worse? idk, I can't visualize it in the same way you could having the idea of it in your head.
    Would the physics affect the performance negatively? sounds like you're doing the same scripting, but with a different object, if that's the case, I'd say no. If you mean to also expand the project to go from a 2D scroller with 1 or even 3 layers to move between like in Litttle Big Planet, to a wider 3D realm with more layers (i use layers in this instance to mean the number of cubic blocks added from what would have been the front of the 2D scroller to the farthest edge) then yes, each new object will take a small toll as all objects do.

    Hope this helped.
     
  22. SoundStormLabs

    SoundStormLabs

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    No, I didn't. In fact I explicitly left that information out.

    How do you take you choosing to go around to threads just to rant about your arbitrary opinions? Exactly like I said.

    I didn't detail compensation at all, I threw out a random rough figure so that people knew I was working on a for-profit project that I intended to release in collaboration with someone else to whom I was delegating coding.

    That's the right idea, but really the inspiration comes from seeing how much work users put into designing their own creations in games like skyrim or spore or minecraft where people could really customize their own stuff. A lot of times I also see aspects of skins in games I like, and other aspects that are very unappealing, and sometimes I wished I could just take one cool part of one skin and combine it with another or take something ugly out.

    I use autodesk, sketchup, maya, blender and 3DS.

    Well, not exactly. They said not to worry about it, but for me it's a matter of deciding the optimal smoothness and detailing of the normal maps of textures, which of course exponentially increases the vertex count with every subdivision. Because of that I'm looking for an actual number. I know mobile devices can render more than million particles, but when I'm talking about smooth meshes and particles and tiles, it all adds up.
     
  23. BIGTIMEMASTER

    BIGTIMEMASTER

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    What are you talking about?

    Either you've mistakenly garbled the first sentence, or you don't understand the purpose and use of texture maps. In any case, it looks like you are way overthinking things. It would probably be a more efficient use of your time to just test things out for yourself -- it seems like all you get from this forum is inferior boneheads wasting your time.
     
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  24. SoundStormLabs

    SoundStormLabs

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    It doesn't seem you know enough about 3d modeling to make any kind of helpful comment here. This is the third time you've proven that thusfar, while some others have managed to do well beyond that.

    There are of course ways of shade shapes to be smooth without subdividing, but the results are always poor when dealing with a low number of vertices, and keeping the vertex count as low as possible to enhance performance is the main defining trait in 3d models for games. It's a matter of knowing what the balance is, and anyone who tests things knows that only one data point in a highly variable market place is hardly enough to conclude anything.
     
  25. BIGTIMEMASTER

    BIGTIMEMASTER

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    If you were half as smart as you think you are, you would know when to shut up to save yourself from looking like a fool.

    Vertex count is not the defining trait in 3d models for games, it is one consideration among many, and with modern GPU's, there a more important concerns than vertex counts (others have already explained this).

    And your last sentence is non sequitur.

    I get the feeling you are somebody who sits around thinking a lot, but never actually does. But what's really irksome is that you have this arrogance like you know so much more than the people who actually do.

    Well, time will tell what you produce. Have fun arguing with everybody about everything. The rest of us will be making games.
     
  26. SoundStormLabs

    SoundStormLabs

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    I'm not even going to read what you say anymore, you're the only one still arguing, and yet again nothing you're saying is beneficial, so I'm just going to report you for trolling whenever I see you post here. Unless you're talking about a cut scene, it's the industry standard that 3D models for games are not detailed sculptures, the art of it comes from balancing the organic and aesthetically pleasing details with as few vertices as needed to compensate for limitations in processing. Any larger successful game company can confirm this. I can tell you from first hand experience that even representing one bit of information in a device is a hassle and it is solely the large number of transistors in the silicon wafer in any device's computer chip that allows any kind of complex interface to take place, which obviously has its limits.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2017
  27. zombiegorilla

    zombiegorilla

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    Not going anywhere positive, and not really about game design. Closing.
     
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