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Question to Unity Industry changes

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by LeFx_Tom, Apr 4, 2023.

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  1. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    That depends on t heir business model and what they're using the engine for. If FORD starts selling Unreal-based car configurator app, they'll be paying quite a lot. With default license, that is.
     
  2. SmShadows

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    I work for a AEC service company and we recently had a a meeting with one Epic Game VP, and he told us that Unreal is free for anything else than for games and would be for everything that we do.

    I looked the license, looks like it's not totally free unless you distribute a product and sell over 1M$USD (5% royalty), which is not really the case for service companies.

    But for your example, since the app is an internal tool and not a product sold, it would be free.
     
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  3. neginfinity

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    There's a reason why in my example I said FORD would SELL car configurator app. In this scenario it will no longer be an internal app and will turn into a product, in which case it will be subject to royalties. So whether it will be free depends on what the company is trying to do with it.
     
  4. AcidArrow

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    Why would Ford *sell* a configurator app? If it was free, they would probably pay a bunch to Unity and nothing to Unreal.

    And even if it was for sale, do you see a FORD configurator app making a million? Are car configurators all the rage these days or something? Because again, if the app itself makes less than a million, they pay nothing to Unreal and a whole bunch to Unity.
     
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  5. AcidArrow

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    If the specific product itself has revenue of over a million and even then, they would pay royalties only for the revenue over 1 million.
     
  6. neginfinity

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    As an extra paid option for a 3rd party car dealership.

    Easily. Price it at a few thousands, and it will hit a mil in a no time. I'm not talking about consumer product here, see earlier spiney's comment about cost of logistics/inventory system.

    Basically, my example is not perfect, but imagine a computerized touchscreen kiosk. A kiosk with a car configurator, where you can install possible options, then you can, say, take AR glasses attached to it and preview it in real world space. In my opinion it is a plausible addition for a car showroom. However, this thing definitely will not be provided for free, partly because car model is a copyrighted and protected data. So it will be sold. Being sold will turn it into a non-internal product, and then FORD will start paying royalties.
     
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  7. ippdev

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    A clients finances is none of my business. Just what is the legal etiquette when working for a freelance client to ask them to expose their ledgers to you right before they sever the contract for sticking your nose where it don't belong? Asking for tens of thousands of freelancers out there. Maybe I was brought up differently but I was taught it ain't none of my damned business what the other guy has in his wallet. Just be honest and work for what you can get in yours.
     
  8. If you have 1M revenue, your aren't a small company. WTF?
     
  9. AcidArrow

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    I can be a small company and take a job from a big company though.

    In which case btw, when they ask me for a quote for a job, I will probably have to tell them "oh I need to look at your financials first", I think they'll really like that.
     
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  10. AcidArrow

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    What you have proven here is that if you really want, you can make an unrealistic scenario where Unity is the better deal.

    Which is... cool I guess.

    Ford should use Unity then, it's settled. Everyone else can use Unreal.
     
  11. neginfinity

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    There's "freelancer clause" which is a pain point of unity eula. Always has been.
    upload_2023-4-8_1-42-37.png
    When you're employed by a company to work on unity project, you're treated as a part of that company. meaning you need to use same financing tier as them.

    And just like several people suggested, it may turn into "please tell me about your finances" question.
     
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  12. Murgilod

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    Yes you are. Hell, $1,000,000 gross revenue is often treated as the threshold a lot of small businesses should cross to maintain long term stability.
     
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  13. SmShadows

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    Yes, 1M$/year is small for a business. It barely cover the cost of ~10-15 employees, software, rent, administrative cost, sales, marketing.

    Actually, the SME definition of small business is less than 100 employees (Personally, I would say less than 50).
     
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  14. I guess we have different opinion about "small business" when you're whining about not wanting to pay for the software you're using to generate revenue. Well. I'm over and out.
     
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  15. Murgilod

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    We're using actual definitions and considering operational costs while you're glossing over that entirely. The realities of this situation were even covered in the previous page:

    Small businesses, as in actual small businesses, operate at extremely tight margins, which is why $1,000,000 is often seen as a sustainability threshold, and frankly that same threshold should be raised considerably from that because it hasn't been the case for some time.
     
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  16. neginfinity

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    The forum is international, and the country of origin matters. And you're not using actual definitions, but definitions common in your region.

    In some region at 1 mil per year gross income, you'd be running a steel mill, producing iron, steel and metallic alloys. And that's no longer small. It is as industry level as it gets.
     
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  17. Murgilod

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    And Lurking-Ninja is from San Jose, California.
     
  18. neginfinity

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    And the forum is still international, meaning standards still vary across people.
    Also, there's common language definition, and a legal definition. It has not been established that we're using legal definition in the thread.

    Look, we could play semantic arguments game and waste infinity of time nitpicking, or we could discuss something useful instead. I propose discussing something useful.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2023
  19. Murgilod

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    Which we were until you started this diversion. Saying "$1,000,000 in annual revenue means you're not a small business," especially from an American perspective, is fundamentally untrue. Saying that most small businesses also operate under tight margins is also not untrue. Also, you're the one who brought in semantics when you attempted to completely decontextualize everything. On top of that, we aren't using legal definitions, we're using definitions that come from how small businesses work. We're also using the definition that Unity Technologies themselves are effectively laying out.

    Saying that this is a bad move because it will impact small businesses who do not operate in entertainment spaces and those companies also operate within tight margins is a useful discussion because this thread is about a pricing change.
     
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  20. neginfinity

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    Honestly, whatever.

    This questions goes way beyond the scope of this forum. And discussing it will definitely get this thread locked.
    See those threads if you are actually looking for serious replies:
    https://forum.unity.com/threads/can-i-still-buy-assets-if-i-am-from-russia.1280951/
    https://forum.unity.com/threads/unity-license-and-sanctions.1245349/
     
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  21. LeFx_Tom

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    The discussion that unfolded here is interesting, although it derails a bit because my main point was - why take away the option to just continue to pay for unity pro seats from businesses and force the other programs on them once they go over a certain threshold?

    That's my main problem with the whole unity industry move ....
    We had to use PiXYZ before and when we did. I bought one (!) network floating license for a year. That was it. It's not such a great tool, that I would love to have 4 licenses of it now permanently, just because unity thinks this is "what industry needs".

    Why can't commercial users not just continue to use and pay for the most expensive unity user tier. We are neither asking for having it for free (like unreal is for most businesses, as long as you don't sell a "packaged product" and even then there's a lot of flexibility). I just don't want to be forced to buy even more tools I don't need for more money...
     
  22. zombiegorilla

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    Honestly, this is pretty much the only answer you need.

    When I contract, what I am going to provide is spelled out. And never once has one of the services I was providing been "audit client's internal software licencing practices". I am going expect they are doing things properly, that is their responsibility and not my concern (or more accurately, not worth my time to investigate, and if they were anywhere near shady, I wouldn't be working for them in the first place). As a professional, I come with a certain set of tools, and those are reflected in my rates (as well as wear and tear on hardware). If the project requires something that I don't have (like Maya for example), the client will need to provide a license.
     
  23. angrypenguin

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    I agree that is as it should be, and I certainly wouldn't feel the need to audit their licensing. However, the Unity terms seem pretty clear on a number of points, one being that if we're a legal entity then our required licensing is based on our client's turnover, and another that it is our responsibility to "maintain complete records establishing your Tier Eligibility and you bear the burden of proving your Tier Eligibility if we ask."

    The easiest way forward is probably to assume you always need Industry for contracts in that domain, and have your own contracts reflect that by default. That way it only needs to be discussed at all if your client and you are both sub-$1mil, at which point you discuss how the relevant records and other license requirements will be met.
     
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  24. Metron

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    Actually, in Belgium, you're considered a small company if you have less than 50 employees. And currently, if you want to have a sustainable company, one considers 100k€/employee for company income.
     
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  25. Deleted User

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    Similar in Poland, you're small company if you have 10-50 employees and up to 10 mln euro of netto income.
    In country when average salary is 3-4 times smaller than in Western Europe.

    From this perspective new Unity thresholds seems really aggressive. This is basically enforcing expensive subscriptions on micro companies...

    Well, that's harsh reality of engine licensing, it's rarely profitable on its own.
    In case of Epic, AFAIK licensing UE and related services never fully paid for the engine development.
    Gears of Wars franchise brought over 1 billion dollars in revenue even prior to... selling IP to Microsoft. Then came Tencent money and insane Fortnite money. They have enough cash to invest into economy of scale. Like a supermarket.

    That's actually a curious process. Unity was the first huge supermarket in the engine space. They made general purpose engine available to average Joe, but... it never turned profit.

    Imagine Walmart or Tesco calculating they can never turn profit by selling groceries. Imagine that Tesco was selling food with a financial loss for entirety of its existence on the market.
    So what they can do? They could sell cheap cloths, kitchen accessories, seasonal articles. Even TVs! That's what supermarkets actually do, as you can't increase margins on food in general. But you can have a nice profit margin on cheap cloths produced in large quantities.

    That's what Unity does. But now they also like Tesco buying off premium boutiques (like Louis Vuitton) offering products with high profit margins.

    Now when I'm thinking of it, I would compare Unreal Engine to other industry. A farmer machinery, like John Deere tractors. Epic does sell tractors to other farmers. But this just by-product of manufacturing tractors to operate their own billion dollar farms. It's nice to have profit from selling tractors, but this is just a tool for them ;)

    These two companies are truly operating in totally different industries. A weird thought, isn't it?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 9, 2023
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  26. PanthenEye

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    I have a bad feeling the engine will quickly become much more expensive to use in general as Unity transition from high growth phase to profitability. They're going to maximise all revenue streams, it doesn't matter that subscription licensing is not their main source of revenue. They already managed to ruin their ads data which lead to the merge with Ironsource to save their main cash cow. Ironsource probably have better internal processes to not let that happen again but as platforms and governmental bodies enforce new limits on tracking user data or using it for advertising, Unity need to diversify, hiking licensing cost across the board is one way to generate more profit with no effort.
     
  27. Antypodish

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    The real question, is it really? Or is just short term strategy.

    The reason I am saying this, because me and anyone of you are Unity next potential customers. Any of me or you can end up in relevant igh profit industry and then become mentor of some sort. You will promote the tech, or advise against, for the relevant industry. And may happen to say, that Unity plays weird ball of the game past few years and risking using their tools are not feasible in long run.

    Or maybe finding out that their tools and the cost is justified. Which is fine then for the use case.

    But past uncertainties doesn't shade a very positive light atm.

    On the side note, since we don't have their data, it maybe that sacrificing us little developers, it is more profitable for the Unity engine strategy, than keeping us profitable in various expanding companies.
     
  28. AcidArrow

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    That one!
     
  29. TheOtherMonarch

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    I am not sure that is correct the Q4 earning call said about 50% of profitability improvements comes from seat licenses etc. and 50% from non-game growth part of the business. Seat licenses to seem to be a big part of their revenue.

    “And one more point I would like to make is that the profitability improvement that you see year-over-year comes about 50-50 from Create and Grow. So we're making progress across the board. We're taking, as John said, more conservative assumptions on the market and being very proactive on cost with decisive actions to improve profitability in this environment.”

    “Great. So maybe just one thing in the letter. You mentioned the drivers that create revenue growth being pricing, China and digital twins.”

    https://s26.q4cdn.com/977690160/fil...are-Inc._Earnings-Call_2023-02-22_English.pdf
     
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  30. mgear

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    saw this question in the Industry webinar today,
    i sure hope that there is some flexibility on that licensing (for small freelancers)

    upload_2023-5-24_21-19-38.png
     
  31. steweye

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    Why do you say that On-Demand Training is bad? In what way? Bad as in they teach nothing or its just really badly explained or maybe they teach just one specific thing non-transferable skill? And why did you say: "but for our case, most of those are useless"? Could you please elaborate?

    Thanks.
     
  32. mgear

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    this is it (image below)

    most of them are pretty old and almost all are for beginners,
    and quite likely each topic would have much better (and up to date) tutorials in youtube..

    so it doesn't add any value, but increases price since its baked in to the offer.. : /
    upload_2023-9-11_16-54-30.png
     
  33. steweye

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    That's the WHOLE On Demand Training? Jeeeesus(if the case)...
     
  34. steweye

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    Could you,or anyone else, go into details and try to explain what does everything consist of from the list that Unity Industry offers:
    • Everything in Unity Enterprise

    • Pixyz Plugin

    • Industry Success

    • Rapid response technical support

    • On-Demand Training (300+ hours)

    • Dedicated Unity Advisor

    • Product activation engagement (1 month)

    • Customer onboarding engagement (3 months)

      For example, what can this Dedicated Unity Advisor do to help us and what do they actually do?
      Or is Rapid response technical support actually rapid or does it oftentimes take more then a week to answer as with normal,not necessary technical, support everybody gets ?

      Thanks everyone.
     
  35. AcidArrow

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    I think I have a pretty good idea for that one, a Unity employee will try to assist you by constantly pushing and marketing their services on you.
     
  36. andyz

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    Well Pixyz helps you get CAD stuff into Unity. The rest is questionable and not a reason to charge you more than twice as much as a game dev, except...
    Enterprise also includes source access and 3 year LTS support etc.
    Why Industry can not have a basic Pro license without the cost inflation I don't know...
     
  37. mgear

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  38. steweye

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    Well, I do wonder is it worth (since I am not the one that is going to pay for it price is really not that much of a concern) getting the Industry if not only for support, training and speeding up the procces of importing and optimising Autodesk models into Unity...
    On the other hand, if support and training is not serious and very helpful and if,on top of all of that Pixyz plugin doesn't do all that great of a job of optimising models I don't really see the point of trying to sell, in a matter of speaking, snake oil to users.
    Do you have personal experiance with the quality all/any of those features included in Industry?
    I am not gonna lie,first ever paid product i tried from Unity was Reflect Develop and I was utterly disapoined. Suppport, documentation,traing was virually non existant and about a month ago Unity publish info that they are no longer accepting new purchases of Reflect and that came out of nowhere. There are countless question left unanswerd from Unity's team on forums and I personally send a lot of emails and non of them were answered. So if experiance with Industy is going to be the same I'd really like to no beforehand rather them 3 months into the purchase...
     
  39. mgear

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    and its not optional (if your company is above the threshold),
    i work in a large company, so we are forced to upgrade (even though our team is small).

    we already dropped 2 pro licenses, as it would had been too expensive to upgrade all of them,
    unreal engine is coming in as alternative sadly.

    now waiting for the transfer to happen, still in the current pro license until it runs out,
    so can report more once i get to see those "benefits".
     
  40. LeFx_Tom

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    The problem is - you don't get a choice.Even if you or your company do not fall under terms of the industry license, you might still be obliged to use it, if your clients fulfill the criteria (which virtually every larger B2B customer does).

    To answer the second part:
    I have used PiXYZ Studio before, when it was freshly acquisitioned by Unity - back then it was actually quite ok. Some good features and a lovely, super responsive team that answered all questions almost immediately. Unfortunately it was not the most stable piece of software I used.
    Since then, I got first hand information that things went completely downhill. The support got integrated into whatever mess Unity's general first-level support is. So you are no longer talking to people who actually know the software but some random Support employee who is not capable of helping with most issues.

    With industry you are not even getting the studio version, but only the plugin, which has quite some limitations in features and also has not received any noticable feature upgrades in quite some time.

    The "industry success" assistance is a joke - you know those annoying customer success agents that probably contact you already all the time to sell you some more licenses or some of their services? You get more of that and they try to shoehorn you into their services.

    Glad you made the "typical Unity software lifecycle experience" already with Reflect. I can by now safely bet money whenever Unity announces a new tool, that is seemingly useful:
    * it is always paid for extra
    * it gets pushed into the market with limited features and questionable documentation/stability
    * it receives one or two very delayed updates
    * it gets integrated as a "free" feature for the top-tier licenses (Pro/enterprise/industry)
    * it gets silently shut down and dies

    Happened before to their collaboration tools, MARS and Art Engine. Will continue to be the case with Reflect and Forma at the moment.
     
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  41. mgear

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    I've had positive experience with Studio, good features, fast (compared to other optimizers), it does crash on certain cases.

    And once you get hold of some pixyz folks emails,
    then you can get faster replies directly. (instead of that broken unity support system).
     
  42. LeFx_Tom

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    I completely agree:
    Studio has solid features and good performance. The python scripting is a bit weird, as it does only use the language, not the ecosystem - but details...
    I also agree - I have first hand access to the devs and they are nothing but lovely - reply fast, gave early access to builds with fixes, etc.
    But getting through to them is now harder than ever with the Unity support system between you and them - I had the benefit of "legacy contacts" ;)
     
  43. steweye

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    Personally, this is the situanion: I work with large,really large revit and IFC models(I know nothing about Autodesk products and all those models are created by architects and modelers that I will never talk to) and importing them into Unity by myself ain't happening anytime soon(materials,meshes, metadata... all messed up or missing or really ugly) so if Pixyz does a decent job with those imports that would be more that a worth taking it since I am not going to waste my time anymore going trough all of the gameobjects in Unity one by one and trying to fix them.
    Support(training more or less) I'd really hope to be more in a way as: if I don't know how to use some of the products someone could explain it to me in details(since I am all alone in the company that will be doing these kind of things) and I dont stay blocked on something for weeks just because information on how to use it is not availble.

    I know there are plenty of examples of companies saying oh,we did this and that and it all wonderful, but nobody is going into details explaing how exactly they did it so if success stories and the rest is like that - its waste of time, really...
     
  44. mgear

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  45. LeFx_Tom

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    PiXYZ does not neccessarily fix anything for you - you still have to fix things yourself, but you can create rulesets and automations, that go through data and process it (discard meshes based on parameters, discard/collapse hierarchies, etc)
    Materials is something, which I did not perceive as a strong suite of the toolset, but it should be enough to get you started.

    The training you want/require can probably be bought seperately from Unity/3rd parties - I absolutely don't see it as part of the Unity Industry license inclusives - sorry.

    By the way - have you ever had a look at Unreal Datasmith and TwinMotion? It has seemingly a pretty straightforward workflow for processing large scale architecture data and making it "pretty" - I don't know if that is something you could need.

    PiXYZ originally came from automotive/engineering needs - so I have no real idea, how it handles Revit/CAD data of buildings/sites
     
  46. Jeremy_35

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    As Unity is currently reconsidering some choices, thinking again these new rules regarding Unity industry licences could also be great.

    As already said in this thread, we will pay for services we don't need. For a lot of companies considered "industrials", 3D projects are only exploratory. They are a cost rather than a source of income. So what happens when we get a 300% license price increase: in the best case: execs ask us to migrate to other tools (Unreal, Godot) and in the worst, they end 3D activities.

    As for the other recent announcements, it also relates to how can we commit to Unity in the long term if you drastically change the rules of the game like that. The positive point is that we will not be the only ones to migrate to other tools.
     
  47. LeFx_Tom

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    I already get the information that I have to transition my renewed pro licenses to "Unity Industry" to stay compliant. My attempt to reach out to any sales/customer Management was greeted with nothing but silence - @Unity could someone please try to get back to us here?
    After the recent disaster that was your rev-share introduction - please don't just force us small b2b studios out of business/towards your competitors!
     
  48. pojoih

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    Pardon me, I came late to this discussion and it was shocking for me to understand that we have to use Unity Industry now. We're a small company of 6 People, making VR and AR Apps for Industry customers, but our income is not even close to 1 Mio,

    Where do you get the information off that you have to use Unity Industry if one of your customers exceeded 1 Mio income? I can't find any info on that in the FAQ or the Industry site? Is a customer of mine automatically a "Industry Customer" of Unitys, just because I ship them a Unity Runtime on a few IPads for a trade show??
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2023
  49. mgear

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  50. pojoih

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    Wow and they expect people to understand this from that?
    This is a very cruel move capable of killing a lot of small teams that are just pushing 1-2 custom tailored Apps a year to an industry customer.
     
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