Putting Things Into Perspective

Okay kids! Time for a little lesson in logic - and by logic, I mean common sense.

I am in no way a professional developer, nor have I been doing it for very long. I do, however, have a very long background in web design, development, and music. I've been on this forum for about 2 months now, and I've been using Unity since a few weeks before. Since I've been here, I've noticed quite a bit about the community.

A good portion of the community here is incredibly helpful and I want to thank each and every one of you for doing what you do. However, I've also noticed a good handful of you trolling, flaming, and just causing ruckus. I'm not going mention usernames, but you know who you are.

Wouldn't you rather be helpful than a nuisance? Why can't we all just grow up and get along? Honestly, a lot of you tell each other to "leave the forums", but honestly, I think you should take your own advice and stop hating on one another. We're all here for the same reason; we love video games, and we love making them(or trying to, at least). So please, for your own sake, stop hating and start being helpful. I think your presence here on the Unity forums indicates your level of maturity more than you might think. How are you going to apply for a job or recruit a team when you're constantly flaming everyone? Yes, I know - FAT CHANCE.

Getting further into things, I think some of you try a little bit too hard.

Example: You have a website, on which, a couple of Unity users went and registered. This does not mean you have your own "game development studio" or anything of the sort. It means you have a website with a few registrants - probably inactive registrants.

You're creating a game and are doing a decent job at it. You're the sole developer on the project. This does not mean you're a lead designer, lead programmer, or lead anything for that matter. You're just one guy making a game. Even if you had other developers joining you, you're still not a lead unless there are other people in your department doing the same job as you. This is what "lead" means. To be a leader, you need followers.

You have to understand that when you do this, you send a message. That message might indicate that you're better than you actually are, or, that you're a liar and a poser. Either way, you'll most likely crash and burn.

So with all of that out of the way, I hope this topic resonates throughout your thick skulls until you finally understand. I'm not trying to bash anyone. I'm not trying to hate on anyone or anything. I'm not trying to create any sort of bad vibe. I'm just another guy trying to talk some sense into others. Not all of you are this way, and I appreciate everyone that continues to make the forums a better place. As for the rest of you, please grow up and start being helpful. This is not the place for people to misbehave because they feel that their e-peen is bigger than the opposition.

If you have something to say, add, or argue, please feel free to do so. Just remember to keep it clean and friendly. Hopefully we can all start maturing and make the forums an even better and more helpful place.

Thanks in advance!

 

lol, you've totally written what's been on my mind for weeks.. only no way could i have made it as polite as yours

 

But trolls aren't going to read this topic, or take it seriously if they do.

 

Thanks man! I try

I think it's a huge issue, especially with as many newcomers and long-term users Unity has, and it's continuously growing. We have to work together. That's what Unity is all about (pun intended).

 

Oh there is no thinking needed, it IS a huge problem, and its a shame. Of course we all have our bad days in this area, but some users just do it ALL THE TIME.

 

Yeah man, it's a huge burden for the rest of us also. It sucks, but hopefully some people can set an example.
I also want to thank you for reading and expressing your opinion, and if you don't mind, toss this topic in your sig.

 

Sure.

 

Thanks man, I appreciate that.
Check your inbox when you get a chance.

 

Exactly the same view, however as lead major gameplay designer specialist guro for my upcoming super-mmo that incorporates many wow features with racing, alongside mine craft environment changing and crysis 2 graphics I do understand how people could be a bit anxious to have a proper title.

 

I understand that completely. People just have to realize that they're going to crash and burn if they can't live up to others' expectations of them.

 

Excellent post and truer than Jesus.

Well, I may not believe in him or God or so, but you get the point.

 

Nothing is truer than the Truth, which Jesus is, you get the point.

 

I'll add some constructive criticism just to keep in line with the scope of the thread (which imho is pointless).

If you're preaching about love&peace, try not to patronize those you are referring to.

I have yet to see something so drastic since I've been lurking these forums. Same goes for answers and feedback. Sure, there are occasional slip-ups, but they can easily be overlooked. It's a big community, and every tree has some slightly less than perfect apples.

Actually, it can very well be a coping mechanism, a motivator, etc. Psychology is not as simple as that.

Check my first piece of advice again.

.....


As much as I hate guessing, I don't think you've seen many other game dev. forums. Compared to most of them out there, the Unity forum is a jewel.

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Take it for what it's worth. If you don't agree, I'm sorry. I know that nobody is perfect, we all deal with things differently. Quoting me this way and calling me out for trying to help out is just plain rude. Like I said earlier on some other post; there's a difference between being "Frank" and being "Dick". Once people figure this out, problems will be solved. Like you said, "It's a big community" and you might miss things from time to time. However, I've noticed a lot of literal animosity by certain users in the short time I've been here. I don't see why people have to act this way. Period. Especially when all people are looking for is help. Bashing my post isn't doing anyone any good.

 

I'm not bashing your post. If you don't get that, then you fall in the category you've created in your first post. Calling some users "dumb" based on your subjective opinion is not a great way to get your point across. Neither is patronizing them or putting yourself on a higher level then "many".

Also, if I don't agree with something, I will usually voice my opinion. Which was the case here. After all, that's why forums are collaborative environments. And, I wasn't ironic when I said "constructive criticism". If one wants to change something, he should start with himself. Again, generalizing and applying various insults to certain groups based on your subjective opinion is not the way to change things.

 

Look, I'm not mad, I'm not trying to insult anyone. I'm just voicing my own opinion, and if you're anything like me, those things would bother the hell out of you too. I realize that my opinion is subjective, but there are lines not to be crossed in business. That's another point that didn't quite cross the finish line. I never once called anyone dumb, nor am I "patronizing" anyone. I genuinely want the community to be better, for everyone else, and for myself.

When I said "bashing my post", I meant

How is this not bashing? You literally said that the thread was pointless.

I also meant the way you quoted the things I said. When someone quotes something without the full sentence, does it not seem like they were purposely quoting something that would make you sound like a jackass? No hard feelings whatsoever, I would just appreciate if it was fair. There's a lot missing from those quotes that could stir up arguments and cause the entire thread to be useless. There's also a bit of "patronizing" going on in there if that's what you want to call it. Excuse me for the way I write, I'm sarcastic at times. Either way, sarcastic or not, it doesn't matter. I never tried to put myself on a higher level than "most". I don't even know what you're talking about there. And you're right, the Unity forums are amazing. That's why they need to be rid of garbage like that. I never said who or what I was talking about. From my perspective, things could also improve a great deal. Anyway, I hope that clears things up at least a tiny bit.

 

I dunno dude.. my Magic 8-ball can be pretty darn accurate sometimes.

 

Sorry, fails the test of truth, which must be true always.

 

Awesome, so I take it that means Religion has finally accepted The Big Bang and Evolution as the defacto way it all began then?

I'm just messing, it's Sunday and I wont attack religion on a Sunday out of respect.



*You'd be surprised how often that Magic 8-ball got things right though, of course, predicting things correctly, and predicting things to happen how I wanted them to happen were often quite different... dammit.

 

I am sorry did i missed something? are you unity community leader or something?, 'other's' by you meant your own expectation?, i don't see what you classified as this clash of yours, i think it is better those who clash resolve these in p.m or public(if they prefer).

My opinion is you should take your tolerance level higher a bit to those kids whose world still filled with dreams and such, i am just smile when see such advertising about these kid's company, not mention there is no other way around to knows if either my quality of work would be worse or better than them, that's my own perspective about your bashing subject(if that's your intention before that i've get).

 

God spoke and it was so.
Religion per say, evolution, and the big bang are unnecessary explanations of men trying to explain what they perceive,
but cannot understand.

 

I don't really mind anyone besides the dilletantes who waste time, and fill up the forums with "I want to make the best MMO ever, i'm 10 to 35 years old and I have never programmed, please make this game for me because I'm broke." the first post of which is "How do I open Unity?"
They are spammers of their own stupidity. Otherwise, I think it takes alot of different types of people to make a community, and if your opinion has any value, then speak it how ever you must.

 

It's not a pointless thread, the point is obviously for you to preen about your supposed moral superiority even as you do the very same thing you want to condemn. Thick skull, heal thyself. There is no "huge problem" or "burden you must bear" (wtf?) if something bores you, don't look at it. If you want to hunt trolls, go for it, it can be fun. But personally, it's threads like yours I'm sick of - blanket condemnations of people you don't name, hand-wringing about non-existent problems, arrogant insults couched as maturity.

And what is all this incoherent mess about independent developers crashing and burning? Because you don't like what they call themselves? Perhaps you're jealous because you can't do anything independently yourself, and feel the need to denigrate those who can.

 

The problem with unity forum is that most people here don't know what a troll is.
Someone said something bad but true about your model/texture/script? Insta troll! This is very wrong.
A troll is someone who wants to get a reaction from someone by posting often unrelated or not true stuff to make the person angry.
If what the "troll" said is true though, it becomes not a troll but a critique. It might not be constructive, but a critique indeed.

By weeding out these "trolls"(which mostly they are not) you are making this like deviantart where ms paint drawings of sonic are considered a pro godsend art. If all you hear is good things, sooner or later you will become full of yourself and cry to your mommy when you hear something negative.

Art is subjective, you will always hear opinions, good and bad. If you cannot accept the bad ones, you should not do art.
As a 3d modeler myself, I usually discount the good comments because they rarely help me at all. Bad ones on the other hand make me improve.
Only the person who accepts and analyzes negative comments will become better. You can't improve much from a comment "Whoa awesome". But you can from "that is rather bad". Why? Because the negative one means there is something wrong and you need to look into it more. Even if it's not constructive, it will still tell you that something isn't as good as it could be and you can/should improve it.

There are people who say good things, there are people who say bad things. If one is missing, the balance is broken.

So yeah, accept it or quit art, because you will hear A LOT of negative stuff.

Just because someone said something you disagree with does not warrant a troll. I am tired of hearing troll this troll that on many forums where there was no troll to begin with.
Also people calling others trolls are usually more annoying than the troll itself, because all they do is flood the thread with derailed junk no one cares about.
Seriously, if you disagree with something, ignore it. Arguing about pointless junk will not get you far.

 

i agree 2dfxman, but you have to admit that you are a little grumpy

 

Anything wrong with that?

 

not if it means you give good criticism, so thank you.

 

Yes me too agree with 2dfxman, my own experience it's better people in front critiques us than in the back stab us, "My best friend is the one who brings out the best in me." ~ Henry Ford , i think this thread would be more suitable if on 'big boys' engine forum like UE, cry engine.

 

Of course not, I'd not have the post count I have today if it wasn't for stalking your posts *grins* You do seem to have cheered up though, guess we all have our off days, hell wait till you see me having a bad day, Andeee will ban me

 

I don't know about others, but I personally on these big boys forums didn't feel a community. All I felt was that people come, ask some questions and leave. No community. No scripts or models being shared(well there are some, but not much) and overall it lacked an atmosphere.
But that's just me

 

Nah you're not the only one who's noticed that. Though there does seem to be a core group of regulars who tend to be the more helpful ones, a few names that often crop up and are recognized. But it's a small group, the majority I've noticed tend to make a couple of posts, realize Unity isn't like modding UDK or Cryengine and quit not long after because the learning curve is far steeper than they hoped for, or that their dreams of MMO's are never going to come true.

If it's like other places, I bet there's more activity on some Unity IRC channel, and I bet that's where all the real helpful stuff happen and where lots of the regulars post comments along the lines of "oh ffs that Frank Oz is pissing off another user, can't someone get rid of him??"

 

Frank Oz pisses me off sometimes too, but I'm ok with that.
I come from a forum where all that people do is piss eachother off.
That's what makes a community. Friends piss each other off too

 

*sniffles happily* I'm just glad someone noticed me. lol

 

You have twice as many posts as me, how can you not be noticed.

 

I post so much people put me on ignore, haha.

 

Just wondering, but can you do that on this forum? I don't see an ignore button

 

Yep http://forum.unity3d.com/profile.php?do=ignorelist doesn't seem to be any other option on here besides doing it through that page.

 

Your post is contradictory, God is also an unnecessary explanation made by some people on drugs who thought 'lulz, wouldn't it be cool if everyone thought there was a guy in the sky?'

 

S***storm incoming.
A theory is a theory. Be it god or big bang, we won't know for a long time. But I think we will find out eventually.

 

Actually, I must say that this is the only forum I have ever been active in. You are quite right.

 

... Good point, I shall leave it at that.

 

I half agree on this one. Telling people their work is great, when it obviously is not, only serves to stroke their ego. It does nothing to help that person improve, and will only set them up for disappointment later when someone else is honest with them. It's great to have honest criticism on the forums, when done politely and in appropriate places.

However I disagree with the idea that negative feedback alone is somehow helpful. Telling people their work sucks without suggestions for how to improve it will more often than not only serve to demoralize that person and the community as a whole. I believe it's also important to consider whether the person is seeking criticism in the first place. Posting negative feedback in a thread where the poster is not seeking criticism could be perceived as flippant and is probably moot anyway.

If somebody consistently posts only negative comments, it's easy to understand why the community may grow to dislike that person. Nobody wants to hang around or work with a person that constantly spews negativity. It's also easy to see why some might mistake that person as a troll, since trolls seek to stir up the worst in people. A negative comment without something constructive is more likely to be perceived as a personal attack rather than a helpful tip, especially if it's done without tact.

By in large I think this community is quite good at dishing out honest feedback in a polite manner and maintaining a sense of encouragement. I've certainly seen forums that were much worse.

 

Ahh, all worship the Singularity! The new religion of scientific preistdom. There are loads of theories, and loads of arrogant people, its true, but there are still things which can be learned from the mythology of yore... namely that eschatology was not invented by Ray Kurtzweil.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

 

Religion and science are two different things. There can not be logically a religion of science. It just doesn't work that way.
And if I have to pick a religion, I choose Cult of Cthulhu. Atleast their god is actually awesome and the religion makes more sense than the real ones.

 

lol, fine call it the attending mythologies of Science instead, but i thought you were talking about the Singularity when you said that we will find out eventually. My bad.

 

Wow, I just woke up and was shocked at how many replies this thread has. I agree with most of you, I just think some of you aren't understanding what I was trying to point out. And yes, there are users that bother me. This is my way of dealing with that, rather than derailing threads or flaming people. If you don't like someone's opinion, you don't have to read it. I don't know why you guys insist on proving me wrong. That, my friends, is the true pointlessness. I have nothing but respect for many users on these forums. There are a few people that bother the hell out of me and I was hoping they would see this and learn a thing or two, because I'm not the only one that's put off by this sort of thing. My opinion is my opinion, and I'm entitled to it. If you think I'm a jerk because of it, that's fine. There are plenty of other users in this community that I've given my best effort to help.

On another note, this conversation is a little bit of what I wanted in the first place. I didn't think so many of you would be offended, but then again, I did write this to be sort of "in your face" and sarcastic. I apologize for that. However, I think some people have already taken the message the right way. Whether you like to think it's a huge problem or not, it is for some people.

Anyway, this is a good thing! At least we're all bringing things to attention.
Please continue to discuss, just keep it clean. Thanks!

 

If someone is making a game (especially an indie game with no budget) than it makes sense that they are considered the leader. Its going to be your vision that people will follow, you will be the one that does the majority of the work and have to get people to follow you to the finish line.

 

That's not true at all. Scientists can be just as human as the rest of us, locked into their own rigid and immutable belief systems that very much resemble a religion.

You saw it with Copernicus, Galileo and the semi-circles. You saw it with Einstein, fixed time and the aether. People are people and just don't want to give up what they know to be true.

I think the most interesting example was the Big Bang theory.



A theory offered by a Catholic Priest that included a creation event? It caused quite a ruckus!

The fight over the big bang theory raged for half a century, even with Hubble's observations a few years after Lemaitre's paper on his cosmic egg/primordial atom. My textbook in school still discussed steady state theory, written in the 70's, years after the discovery of the CMB!

This religion of science will always be a constant. Just look at the Aether 2.0 - aka dark matter. Anyone working on alternate theories that do away with their fairy stuff, such as MOND, are regarded as crackpots. Must hold onto their belief systems!

 

Very true! The only difference really is that Scientists base their beliefs on observation.
People of faith base their beliefs on literature. I think faith is a great thing to have if taken the right way.
A lot of "religion" is blown out of proportion though. People fight and kill over it.
It's a shame that something so wise and powerful is used this way.

 

Not always the case.

Einstein for example, his cosmological constant was an attempt to hold onto his preconceived 19th century notion of a universe without beginning or end. It had nothing to do with observation. Similarly, until he died he kept trying to undo quantum physics trying to find a classical explanation. Why? His rock-solid faith that the world worked in a particular way, that "God does not play dice."

Not really. If you look at history there hasn't been a war that was truly about religion. They are invariably political, but dressed up in religion.

Take the crusades. Truth is that it wasn't so much religion as, "omfg these crazy muslim dudes are invading europe, the eastern roman empire is about to fall. We need to stop them before we lose all our $$$ and land!"

Same goes for other supposed 'religious' conflicts, such as the protestants and catholics in Ireland.

Even the crazy muslims blowing people up, it's all about political power.

The fact is, if there were no such thing as religion people would still be killing each other...only to a far worse degree. Think Stalin and Pol Pot.