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Perpetual license going to be ceased in March 2017?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by newlife, Jan 11, 2016.

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  1. Devil_Inside

    Devil_Inside

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    Oh, +100 to custom support tickets. I want!
    And services for the duration of subscription/major version is also something that would be great!
     
  2. blazespinnaker

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    It's not simple, no, but it's necessary. Xcode generally forces everyone to upgrade constantly. 3ds max is getting rid of perpetual licenses. There's no reason that unity can't do it.

    I will agree that Unity will need a higher level of quality as they pursue this new business model. If people are paying more, they should get more.
     
  3. ippdev

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    A different career? I will if they go total subscription. I will not be held hostage to their buggy stuff causing non-payment from clients and then kill my credit rating (and have obnoxious idiots flood my phone with demands that cannot be met because Ricatello sells my debt to them) because I have to keep the lights on and food in the fridge and a roof rather than pay a subscription. I will take my talents to another field. Mind you..Someone will fill the game engine void and Unity will be SOOL trying to get them back. I have a big project in the works and may use Unity 4 to do it. I still own that pro license. I am not satisfied with U5 yet. I have lost a lot of money trying to make it work. I want the old CEO back.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2016
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  4. ippdev

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    Since the new CEO came on board we get lots of nice and shiny but we don't get stable. Three days trying to bake terrain lighting = 900 dollars lost tapping foot and staring at progress bar... Upgrade to a newer version to get that..framerate drops to 6 FPS and have to switch back to the unusable light baking version..another day down the tubes..that is 1200 lost..near the cost of a pro license. That is just one week. FFS! No payment from client because of this and they could care less it is Unity and not me that caused it.
     
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  5. ippdev

    ippdev

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    I love hostage taking and developing Stockholm Syndrome. It makes my day rock.
     
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  6. ippdev

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    At least with royalties I can get a product out and know my credit didn't get killed. Unity needs to beware.
     
  7. Ryiah

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    Is this where we jokingly suggest that @Ony must have known something? Her timing was very good. :p
     
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  8. angrypenguin

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    How do we jump from "subscription" to "hostage taking"? One of those things is a voluntary agreement, the other is... quite the contrary.

    In any case, Ryiah's point still stands. If there is something else out there that better suits your needs or preferences then by all means use it. If people would genuinely prefer to leave an industry rather than change tools... well, that kind of speaks of Unity's value, doesn't it?
     
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  9. Kiwasi

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    Heck, we even managed to jump from Unity might be considering subscriptions only in the future to 'its happening'
     
  10. Ryiah

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    Have you noticed how there aren't any Unity representatives jumping into this thread to make a statement? While the reason may be as simple as they haven't seen it yet, I've noticed they tend to spot the others fairly quickly. I feel a large part of the speculation shifting is because we haven't seen any of them making a statement.
     
  11. Kiwasi

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    True. I haven't seen them anywhere lately, so I assumed some big conference coming up. Or perhaps Christmas holidays. But it could also be avoiding the issue.
     
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  12. ippdev

    ippdev

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    Glad to see your sense of sardonic humor is chugging along.
     
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  13. darkhog

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    Unreal, and soon Source 2 (first source is at least available for consoles, since we got port of HL2). So S2 should also have this, especially since they're releasing it for anyone to use.
     
  14. orb

    orb

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    It's also a weekend. They tend to not respond to threads about Big Issues then, possibly to discuss things internally while everybody's at work, or maybe just to be bastards ;)
     
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  15. Ryiah

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    My information on Source 2 is limited but I feel it goes without saying that neither engine supports anywhere near the same number of platforms as Unity. Not to mention, at least with Unreal, because Unity is so far less demanding it often has a better range of supported devices for those platforms.

    It may be the weekend but the thread started on Monday. I don't expect them to leap into every thread that has the potential to become an overblown issue but we were up to two pages as of Friday and accelerating.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2016
  16. Martin_H

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    Afaik it has the requirement to (perhaps non-exclusively?) release on steam, but no royalties beyond that. Can you confirm that? Since I only care for windows desktop and possibly SteamOS/Linux, I would also say that Source 2 would be the next best thing to an alternative to Unity. Also I happen to already know a few things about their art toolchain so it would only be ~95% of stuff to relearn ^^. I have very low expectations of documentation and support though.


    Imho the hostage analogy isn't entirely wrong though.


    Longterm subscription-only with forced updates means that you commit to pay the monthly fee for the rest of your working life or make massive changes to how you work, which can mean changing the profession entirely. The way I see it with Unity as a subscription (at least for me) is less dramatic than for example Photoshop. There is UE4 and soon maybe Source2, plus other engines for 2D. All have their own drawbacks, sure, but it is not a Photoshop vs Gimp comparison imho.

    I could not do the work I do with Photoshop with any other program, period. None of them have the smart objects and layers styles features that I need. I could work fine with Photoshop CS2, but anything older would be a problem.
    Entering the Creative Cloud subscription model means that in 10 years I'm most likely sitting on a ton of files that I can no longer open in my old Photoshop CS6 and I'm forced to stay on the subscription or I lose access to those files. They aren't of much use to me as merged down tiffs when a client asks me to make changes based on a past project (which regularly happens for me). And then Adobe can crank up the price of the subscription to whatever they want.

    It will come down to a choice of "do I keep paying, or do I change my line of work?". What CC costs per month right now is entirely meaningless to me. I consider it a long con because the only thing you can count on with large companies is that they usually go with the choice that makes them more money. They already have the monopoly, now they only need to lock in every professional in a subscription, so that those can't just stop upgrading their standalone licenses every year, and then down the line Adobe has zero reason to keep innovating on their software and can raise the prices by 500% without a problem.

    They don't have to care if people don't like them, they have a monopoly. And probably even in 10 Years no alternative product could catch up with them, because they lack the head start, experience, userbase and budget.
    I know I'm fighting a lost cause here because everyone and their dog already uses CC and the industry is indeed headed in that direction. But I'm saving massive amounts of "told you so" in storage and will delay my "descent into subscription" as long as I can.

    The fact that I could still do my daily work just fine with the CS2 suite instead of CS6, which offers me little more than better convenience and a dark UI, is telling that Adobe is having trouble to keep providing real reasons for people to upgrade standalone licenses of their own free will. So they just eliminate that problem by discontinuing the standalone license model. And I think long term this will cause slower development in every subscription software package that has no real competitors.

    I still have to work 30+ years and I sometimes get the feeling that almost no one involved in these discussions gives a thought on such timeframes, which is baffling to me. Sure, I can't predict the future either and in 30 years we might as well all be digitized and uploaded into the matrix, paying a monthly fee that our existence doesn't get deleted... but still... Some changes can be prevented if there is a consensus among people and they act accordingly. Sometimes it's as simple as voting with your wallet.

    Just my 2 cents worth of pessimism.
     
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  17. zenGarden

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    There is other painting software free and paid like Krita, MyPaint, SmoothDraw, PictBear, Pixia etc ...
    you seem to be someone that just follows the popular software without beeing open to good alternatives.
    Your entire post is about Adobe, it seems you have a problem with them.If you work in a company , this is not your concern as the company gives you the license to work, for any software.

    You can't change some things, if you are not working in a company paying the software for you, it is up to you to stop complaining and to start choosing what software suits you if something bothers you.
    Unity gives you personnal edition for free why complaining ? You can buy Pro version or you can pay a monthly subscription.
    Unreal 4 is free only Royalties based (you pay per quarter a percent from the gain that is above 3000$).You are still not happy ? If you can learn some complex framework and workflow you can still pay 10$ per month for Cryengine, this is cheap considering there is no Royalties and they have interesting tech like Svogi. You prefer something tied with your modeler and don't care about Royalties, then try Stingray engine.
    For mobile games you have interesting open source engines like Godot , Atomic engine , Jmonkey or Paradox and many others.
    Really i don't understand your pessimism with all software possibilties out there ? o_O
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2016
  18. Ryiah

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    Yes, according to PC Gamer and other news sites.

    http://www.pcgamer.com/source-2-will-be-free-wont-ask-for-royalties/

    Only for you and others who are perfectly fine being restricted to the Steam platform. Many of Unity's developers though are targeting mobile and then you have the consoles which have become progressively easier to target over the years.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2016
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  19. darkhog

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    Source 2 will likely support consoles and is sure to support desktops - the only platforms that really matters, have actual games and aren't "tap here to fart and waste $10,000,000,000" S***.

    As most Valve-related stuff on the web, this is just a rumor that started when S2 was first announced. I'd wait until it's released (whenever it may be) and read the terms.
     
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  20. Ryiah

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    It won't support anything if they don't release it. :p
     
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  21. orb

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    To you.
     
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  22. chingwa

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    @Martin_H I am extremely suspicious of subscription route for all the reasons you just listed. Your analysis of the Photoshop subscription is spot on. I've been using Photoshop professionally since version 2, and I refuse to pay the subscription. CS4, which is 8 years old now, still works perfect for me and I have no need to upgrade. The diminishing returns on the feature set certainly seems like one reason they took under consideration for the forced subscription.

    The comparison to Unity isn't a direct one though as they are very different pieces of software and very different use-cases. I would likely need to continue to update Unity for a very long time, not only for feature updates but also for bug fixes (when's the last time you saw a bug in photoshop?). Still, I prefer the perpetual license model as it simply gives the customer (me) more flexibility.
     
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  23. Martin_H

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    Yes, exactly. I didn't mean to make a direct comparison though and thought I had made that sufficiently clear by saying "The way I see it with Unity as a subscription (at least for me) is less dramatic than for example Photoshop.". I just always take Adobe as the example of why subscriptions are bad in general because they were among the first to introduce them and they potentially have the biggest impact on my personal work.

    That is incorrect. I've been using blender since when it didn't even have an undo function and I'm often among the last to switch over to the "popular" software.
    If you know a graphics program that supports Photoshop-style smart objects, layer styles, clipping masks, adjustment layers, vector masks, color management, cmyk color modes, etc. etc. on 8k resolution files with 500+ layers of 1-3gb filesize, then by all means, please enlighten me :). It's not about painting, if I really had to, I could do that with other programs. It'd be painful and slow me down but it's at least possible. I don't think there is an alternative for the other features I need.
     
  24. ippdev

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    I have two annoying ones. The first is if I try to change a font in already typed out text it gives and error and removes the layer the text was on. The second is the Clone tool will not work with the left hand control (or is it Option..need to get coffee down) key. Took me a while to figure out the right one will work..but..wtf!?!
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2016
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  25. Teila

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    This is true. However, unlike Unity, you can still use the stuff you made with Adobe. I can quit my Maya subscription and my models are still usable. I can import them into Blender. My PS files still work in Gimp or a few other software programs. So..if you are having a tough time financially, lost your job, kids need braces or college tuition, you can quit for a while and still continue working with free or lower cost software.

    Personally, I find my Maya LT subscription to be so low that it doesn't impact our budget at all. And I know if necessary, or if for some reason we had to quit game development, I can stop it. That is a huge factor for me.

    Unity's subscription price may be worth the cost to those who want it, but the lock for 12 months is scary. Those of us who lived through the the 2008 financial crisis and suffered job losses and a very difficult job market, or those coming out of college with huge debt and few jobs probably have similar issues. I am sure having a perpetual license in your pocket is probably a bit of a relief in times like that.
     
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  26. mdrotar

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    There are plenty of options, depending on your needs. For you, it sounds like the most important feature for you is the number of platforms. For others, they may be focused on just desktop development. Or just mobile development.

    If Unity is the only engine that fills all the technical needs just right for a particular game developer, but the revenue model is wrong, then that would open up a hole in the market. Personally, I am keeping a close eye on Xenko. It's very similar to Unity with some hints of XNA. It even uses the same terminology as Unity (Assets, Asset Bundles, Prefabs). It's based on the latest version of C#/Mono/Xamarin (as opposed to Unity's ~10 year old mono), and they are in the process of porting over to CoreCLR. They're planning on implementing prefabs in February and if it comes supporting nested prefabs, then, well, I think that says a lot about their differences. We'll see. It's still in early beta and missing some important features, but hopefully by the time Unity 6 comes out, it will be a worthy competitor for many people.
     
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  27. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Everyone posting in this thread who hasn't actually published a game for sale seems to forget that Unity is in fact by large, free for those people.

    So unless they were actually you know, finishing something, a vast part of this thread is just people talking out of their squishy buttocks, which is normal on the internet.

    What I said above is initially annoying, but also amusing. The take away is: how can unity ever make business decisions based on a thread like this? it would be silly :)
     
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  28. zenGarden

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    It is profesionnal use or personnal ? If it is pro use than you have some money income and gain otherwise you would not work for nothing. Your concern is photoshop not 3D engines.


    I find expensive to drop 30$ each month.Maya is no more the great program it was before Autodesk baught it, and
    Blender has so much more
     
  29. Wild-Factor

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    I've released several games and I'm against the subscription model.
    From a business point of view, subscription usually mean more cash flow. But at the price point they set the current subscription, it's more a price increase (or an expensif rent).
    And I don't see Unity reducing the current price. Which mean, if Unity will go full subscription -> big increase in price.
    Unity will probably go full subscription but will need to give some advantages (ios and android included etc..) to justify the price increase.
     
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  30. Teila

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    Yes, it does. Which is why I don't like it...too busy, too much, very confusing. :) I don't need "more". I find Maya to be more my style and I just "get" it so much better.

    Everyone has different learning styles and different strengths and for my $30 is worth the cost. Blender takes me more time and my time is worth the extra money.
     
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  31. zenGarden

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    You mean for Pro users only, not Personnal edition ?
     
  32. hippocoder

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    Photoshop isn't comparable with Unity. For a start, you can exist fine on Photoshop 7, or CS1, or any old version. You really don't need a new Photoshop, ever.

    But Unity? you really, really need Unity to keep evolving and improving, because hardware and OS changes so frequently. New things come out all the time. Unity has to keep up. Thus, the arguments are not compatible.
     
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  33. Teila

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    Very true and I for one, appreciate this. However...it would be nice to be able to give back to Unity as well. I totally understand why they have the 12 month lock. Unity cannot run a business if people buy pro for one month just to publish their game. And making it so you can't upgrade Personal to Pro means no one can decide to buy pro in the middle of development.

    I was just stating my opinion on why 12 month locks on subscriptions are not feasible for everyone. I absolutely believe that Personal is the best solution for those who do not make enough money to cover the cost without hardships or financial concerns. Either that, or the perpetual, which would mean people could pay a one time payment and not worry about it again. If those are gone, then that option won't be available.

    Buying the services that Pro does not provide for extra cost would not be a bad idea either since at least they get something from us. But again...why buy pro if you can just pay for the services you need?

    Quite a dilemma. Of course, the subscription and services are much more necessary to small or large studios that publish enough games to make it worth their while.....or to people who really need the dark skin and custom logo. Hopefully enough of those exist. :)
     
  34. goat

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    Perpetual is what I prefer as it saves on paperwork and subscriptions much like royalties is less preferred, not because of invasion of privacy, they learn all they need to know if you use their engine already, but because of amount of paperwork it generates. Either way, I don't have to worry about such things until I actually solicit for money.
     
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  35. ippdev

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    I have been paying my bills with Unity and from 2.6 till 5 I owned a pro license. I have not been able to purchase a pro license since the 5.0 cycle due to issues i have harped on. If I had done the subscription route I would have bill collectors up my arse and my credit ruined and unable to buy the house i rent currently. Do not dismiss this thread out of hand in such a cavalier manner friend.
     
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  36. hippocoder

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    I'm not dismissing the thread, I'm telling you that it's not enough for unity to ever make grand business decisions on. If you read it differently, I apologise.
     
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  37. Teila

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    I certainly hope not! lol Crazy people in these threads... ;) And I say that with the utmost respect.
     
  38. darkhog

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    Very true and that's exactly why sub-only model isn't good for Unity. Enough people will buy pro/upgrade packages to sustain the company.
     
  39. Ryiah

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    If they're serious about abandoning perpetual licenses despite how successful it was for them it may no longer be enough.
     
  40. darkhog

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    I realize you're playing devil's advocate, but I believe the word you're looking for is 'greed'.

    Also,
     
  41. Ryiah

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    No, I don't believe the word I'm looking for is 'greed' at all. I'm not so easily blinded by the belief that a company is being greedy unless I have actual facts backing it up or very sound reasoning. The CEO coming from a company like EA is not particularly indicative of this to me.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2016
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  42. Ryiah

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    While sitting here thinking up a response in another thread something occurred to me. How many platforms does Unity support? How many of those platforms does Unity monetize separately? There's a substantial difference in number even after you've removed the consoles from the comparison.

    I may be overestimating the costs of implementing, maintaining, and supporting those platforms but I feel like that is a substantial number for only up to $4,500 (plus $2,250 every two or three years) per developer.
     
  43. gameDevi

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    would the community manager like to educate us?
     
  44. mdrotar

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    Interesting how the only 2 platforms Unity charges extra for are the most popular platforms for its developers (besides maybe desktop). You seem to be fixated on just the number of platforms they support. Let me ask you, for the games you've created (or helped create) with Unity, did you release and monetize them on Tizen, Windows Phone, Windows Store, Linux, Mac, and Samsung TV?
     
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  45. Ryiah

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    What's wrong with that? I'd argue selecting an under-targeted platform is no different from picking a niche genre. You have a lower user base but those users who are there may be more willing to buy your product because of how few there are.
     
  46. Teila

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    Unity is a business. Of course they do this..it is how companies make money. If Unity didn't make money, they wouldn't be able to pay their developers to upgrade Unity...or even maintain it. Popular stuff is what commands the most money. My guess is they also spend much more money on support for those platforms as well.
     
  47. mdrotar

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    Ignoring the question is a good enough answer for me.
     
  48. Ryiah

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    I'm a hobbyist. I thought I had stated it at some point recently but that must have been another thread. Monetizing is unlikely to happen for me but it may eventually happen and out of those platforms you listed Linux will definitely be among them.
     
  49. mdrotar

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    Your insight into this discussion is most valuable. Please, tell us more.
     
  50. mdrotar

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    So if you never plan on releasing on Tizen, Samsung TV, and probably most of the other platforms, why is that the most important feature of Unity for you?
     
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