osx vs. xp

Huh, do you kow what's really scary?!

I like my xp system as it works quite well but if you come to a xp machine which has a internet connection and no one has taken care of since some time...holy cow this is a mess.

Now if only leopard would come with a reasonable finder!


A still shocked,

taumel

 

What exactly do you mean? Not sure I'm following you.

My personal opinion of OS X on my Intel iMac is that it is disappointingly unstable. Safari and Firefox crash nearly every day, and I've had several system lock-ups in the 3 or so months I've had it. I won't even talk about the not-so-Mighty Mouse, but even things like resuming from the screensaver has caused a crash. Big change from when I used Mac's in the 80's and early 90's. My Mac Quadra AV -never- crashed or locked up.

My experience with Windows (including XP Pro) is that on some machines (like my aging Athlon XP box) it's as solid as a rock. I can't remember the last time I had a crash or had to reboot. Vista, on the other hand, scares me. I really don't have any reason to upgrade except that the forces of M$oft will probably dictate it in the not so distant future.

My experience with Linux (Ubuntu, Knoppix, and Debian) was about the same as OS X, the difference was that it was easier to get out of a crashed application and I didn't have to pay for the OS.

IMHO, the only reason I continue with OS X is Unity...

 

>>>
What exactly do you mean? Not sure I'm following you.
<<<

My osx system is quite stable. Honestly i don't know if it's more or less stable than my pc so i don't really care. It just works for me - mostly, hopefully :O)

If i would like to crash it it's quite simple. Just open some stuff which uses more than 32MB of VRAM and a few clicks here and there later *boom* it freezes

My mac is the old G4 mini Mac with which i'm quite happy beside of the bad gfx card, no audio in and only two usb2 ports. But beside of this it's a nice machine as i also do use my IBM keyboard and a logitech mouse - which i only can use in a seperate usb2 port otherwise it's won't get detected correctly. *wink to Apple*

I also don't use Firefox and Thunderbird like on XP as Safari and Mail is good enough for me on this machine. I like the red mark in the mail program which informs me that a new mail has been arrived.

I just had some stuff to do on a pc which was turned off since some time and so a) update virus stuff, b) lot's off M$ updates which lead to a unstable system. I was told the system was stable before and it seemed that the M$ updates weren't in sync with the drivers installed so *bang* *boom* *bang* crashes until i got to update the rest of the drivers too.
I haven' noticed getting unstable in such a manner on osx till now. If you leave the machine alone and there come some Apple updates it still works. Obviously a single objective case but i just got through this.

I'm really looking forward to Vista as theoretically it should get some really nasty things out of the world. Linux, well it's Linux. I haven't found a single distribution till now which made me really happy. It doesn't matter if it was Suse, Ubuntu, Knoppix, Chaotix,...

I'm hoping for that Vista will be nice or that Leopard will come with a useful finder instead of too much gimmicks on board.

It looks like 2007 will be an interesting year regarding OSs and computer hardware too if you've read that Intel is on a good track with 45nm process and Apple might come out with a headless cube maybe?!

 

Sounds to me like you have some hardware issues.

 

I really like my mac because of how the os is set up and it is very stable. The filesystem on my brother's windows laptop he has for school makes me cringe. I think apple has gone the right way but forgotton to polish the system and give enough options. I almost never get crashes, but here is a list of things that make me wish osx was less arrogant:

The first thing my parents did when they got this computer (their first computer with osx) is delete image capture and iphoto because they were jumping up in our faces when we tried to import pictures and we couldn't find the way to turn them off.


Even though every user on our computer is an admin, permissions are like a slap in the face with a spiky poison soaked steel plate, and there is no reall way to avoid the problems they cause except to only have one user or have each user have his own copy of everything. They almost got my parents to look for an alternative OS.

Spotlight is wonderful, except that I am waiting 1-10 minutes for it to search for each letter I type in. It is faster to just go through the folder hierarchys.

Itunes is obese bloatware. I have to turn it off to test my games at more than 10 fps.

If an ipod is plugged in, itunes won't shut off. I quit it, it starts again. I force quit it, it starts again. I turn off "start up when ipod is plugged in", quit it and guess what? It starts up again. This almost made my throw my computer out the window.

Sounds horrible but I would much rather not have to deal with windows.

 

You're kidding, right?

M$oft might be able to get away with that (and believe me I've gotten that as a response from them many times in the past), but Apple? Since I'm running Apple's latest OS on one of their latest machines, I sort of think that makes it an "Apple" issue.

The fact that there are now two types of Apples, PPC and Intel, doesn't make things any better either. I wonder just how "universal" a Universal Binary really is? Incidently, in the few minutes between my last two posts, Flash 8 Pro crashed my iMac...

 

You really think it could be that my almost brand new iMac is broken? I hadn't thought of that, I just assumed it was the nature of things since it's been like that from the beginning.

 

It's always possible that in all that perfectly functioning hardware there's some bad RAM or something. Little glitches in RAM have caused the great majority of stability problems I've seen over the years.

For my part, OS X hasn't crashed on me in years. Most of my problems come from my old DVD drive; however I hardly ever use this.

 

Hmm... I added a 3rd party 512mb RAM stick to my iMac, so I bet Apple will blame that. Any way to test for RAM problems on a Mac?

Edit: Now that I think of it, I had the same problems before I added the RAM and part of the reason I bought the extra RAM was that I was hoping the crashing was caused by insufficient RAM.

 

At the moment I only have one problem with OS X, most concretely with Safari. I can't see videos that require que quicktime plugin in Safari, it starts to skip frames, and it's kind of stupid because it works with Firefox! So, every time I have to see some movie I copy the url and open Frefox...

 

Here we go again :cry:

I just ran the "Hardware Test" (reboot with DVD 1 and press "d") and my iMac locked up. I called Apple Care and they said that I'm 20 days past my 90 days of phone support, and I also just learned that the 1 year Apple warranty is parts only, I would have to pay for any labor or diagnostics.

For anyone who may not remember my earlier posts, this is my 2nd iMac (the first wouldn't eject a CD-ROM) and it looks like I'll need to get a 3rd now... So much for Apple's superior products, huh? :x

 

FWIW, the only real issue my 2+ year old G5 ever had or has is that my second hard drive sometimes doesn't respond when waking from sleep, so I have to reset the machine. I think Safari has crashed on me once, ever. After using OS 8.6/9.2 for quite a few years at work, I can say with 100% certainty that OS X is far, far, far more stable and better in pretty much every way. Also I used a XP machine at Thanksgiving and I know exactly what Taumel meant by his first comment....

--Eric

 

... well it seems to me the biggest problem with Apple products is Apple itself. I had to jump through hoops of fire to get a replacement for my first dead iMac, and it appears that Apple Careless is going to make me jump through hoops of fire again to get my 2 month old replacement iMac fixed.

In nearly 30 years of industry experience, my worst experiences have all been with Apple these past few months. In fact, the only companies who were as bad as this all went bankrupt long ago.

Sorry for the rant, but to have to go through this twice now in just over 90 days is getting the better of me. I'm in the middle of a project, my hard drive is half full with project files, and I'll have to spend the next day or two backing up to DVD, then wait a week or so for a replacement, then spend a day or to restoring everything, -and- have the pleasure of paying Apple to repair my under warranty iMac.

Sorry, but that ain't great service in my book.

 

That is bad. I have AppleCare so I did not know about the paying for labor, etc. Just curious, I seem to remember you were not in the U.S. Is that correct? It may almost be cheaper for you to get the 3 year AppleCare, then they would cover everything. You must be a Lemon Magnet for Apple products. Perhaps they should hire you for quality testing.

For back up, if you have an external drive I would just use that.

 

Thanks ifrog, but as far as I know Hawaii is still part of the US (otherwise, could please I get a refund for all that tax I've been paying?) 8)

It's $169 to get AppleCare, which I may have to do, but it sure sucks that I have to pay to get service on a machine that a) is a replacement for a dead one, b) only 110 days since I first bought it and c) still under [rotten]Apple's worthless "warranty". I had similar problems with a Sony Vaio about a day before it's 1 year warranty was up. They shipped me a brand new machine, no questions asked.

The big issue for me at the moment is what it will cost me to backup all my data. I don't have an external HD and I've got about 46 GB of data. Haven't found any software that will backup to DVD, so add another $200 to the bill for an external drive...

So David, how's that Windows port of Unity coming along?

 

Not to lecture, but you should be doing that anyway, computer problems or no computer problems. It's a rule that hard drives fail at the worst possible time, no matter what type of computer you're using.... You want to make backups as quick and painless as possible so you do it frequently, which rules out using DVDs. (Though I still backup to DVD every few weeks with the really important stuff in addition to using two hard drives daily, just to be really really sure.)

--Eric

 

Actually all my data and project files are backed to CD/DVD and I have copies of all my applications on CD. In grand total, everything is on a couple dozen CD's/DVD's. I just hadn't planned on completely re-installing all my applications and data twice in less than 90 days.

This pain in the eyeMac is the only Apple product here, otherwise all our PC's are backed up to a mirror drive on a regular basis.

I was thinking about getting a Macbook Pro, but I'm having second thoughts on that now...

 

BK-
I would wager that the origional stick of ram was dodgy. We have 5 imacs at school, and to be honest, they look pretty on the outside, but....

Theres one brand new one in particular that was an absolute sh@#$%er, and replacing the ram helped some, It is still crap, and every time I use it it beachballs, but swapping the factory supplied ram made it usable.

My G4 733mhtz Quicksilver runs better than the school Imacs...
Pete and I both endorse them solidly, and you can upgrade Ram, HD, Videocard etc...Ay Pete?
So if your strapped for cash, a step backwards in technology and spending is actually a step towards proven reliability. However the cpu will struggle with complex physics I believe. Try and send the ram back with a "This is dodgy, Please replace"letter.
AC

 

Yeah, good point. I've got 2x 512 MB sticks in there right now, the original and 1x third party brand. I may try pulling them one at a time to see what happens. If I know it's the RAM that may speed up the repair time.

My real issues are with Apple. I can't call the local store (a 2 hour drive from here), they don't take phone calls, and the only people who can tell me how fast they can turn this puppy around is the store. I called AppleCareless and somebody at "Executive Relations" but they were both worthless.

I'm looking at spending about $200 - $300 bucks plus 1 to 3 weeks to get my brand-new iMac running properly... maybe...

This is the second time I'm going through this ordeal in less than 3 months. Oh, yeah, I'm a happy camper :roll:

 

Unfortunately Leopard is not out yet, otherwise the backup would not be an issue. Of course you would still need another drive to backup to.

To you have an iPod? If so, just use that. Drag and drop. Unfortunately for DVD backup I have .Mac so I use Backup so I can't really help you there. There are some inexpensive, and possibly some free, utilities but I do not know anything about them.

What do the PCs use to backup?

 

No, no ipod. I've got an empty external drive case which I may try to get a drive for or just buy an external drive.

The mac isn't connected to our network. Been too busy to mess with that yet.

Although the G4 may be a wizbang box, my next machine will definitely not be made by Apple. We have a saying in this country, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." I've had bad experiences with Apple support twice now, I don't think I want more of that kind of punishment in the future.

 

To bad about that, but I can understand. I don't think I have heard of a store in the US where you cannot call, although Hawaii is only marginally in the US Whoever heads support for Hawaii should be fired. If you are spending that much you might as well get AppleCare. You save money, get 3 years of support, and you get Tech Tools Pro. I think 1-3 weeks is the standard answer on time.

For what it is worth, our Intel iMac has worked flawlessly since the beginning of September with the only down time being reboots for certain system updates. Maybe living in such a beautiful place does strange things to Macs.

 

Apple consistently tops customer satisfaction and quality control charts, but that just means they're less bad than the rest. Plus they're churning out more than ever these days, so I'm not at all surprised to see the occasional string of bad luck that some people have. Doesn't make it any more acceptable, mind you....

--Eric

 

man that stinks. i've been on macs since 1984 and the only problem i've ever had *knocks on wood* is catching a worm through -you guessed it- MS word. go figure...

 

Targos may have been right (at least I hope so). I pulled out the 2 RAM sticks and tested them in the machine 1 at a time. The Apple Hardware Test (AHT) ran fine. I inserted the 2nd stick and when I did I noticed that the "push insertion tabs" really didn't seat the sticks properly, so I pushed on them to make sure they were in right. When I ran the AHT again, it ran fine with both sticks. Then I replaced the cover and plugged in my Logitech gamepad. This time AHT crashed (huh?). So I ran it again with the gamepad unplugged and it ran, no errors. I ran it again just to make sure, and it ran fine.

At this point I'm not sure if:
a) The RAM sticks might not have been seated properly or
b) The Logitech Rumblepad II game pad might be causing some problems or
c) There is some other weirdness going on.

But for the moment at least, it seems to be running OK (fingers crossed).

This weekend I plan on buying an external drive -just- for the iMac and, although I hate to throw good money after bad, I'll probably get AppleCare.

Oh, about "Apple's top rated service", all I can say is "baloney". Those ratings are, by and large, bought by advertising dollars. The first time I ran into issues with Apple and AppleCare I did a google and found several "service reviews" which rated Apple at the very bottom of customer satisfaction.

Now-a-days (and considering US politics), that's probably a good thing

 

Good to hear about the RAM test. Maybe something is up with the Logitech Driver. You might want to check to see if the driver has been updated.

Most of the "big" numbers you hear are actually fairly good. Those doing the tests attempt to get fairly random samplings. The problem is even a rating around 80% still leave 1/5 with problems. When you start getting into large numbers even 1% is big. I worked on a system where there was < 1% error rate for a given run, but that still translated into more than 150 errors per office we supported. So even though we were 99% accurate, to the those that we were supporting it did not feel that way since they had to deal with 150 errors each time we had a run. Other parts of the system were far less accurate yet their impact to users was almost unnoticed since their starting numbers were so small, so the offices only had errors periodically.

Still, none of that helps you

 

Yeah, I'm keeping my fingers crossed. If it isn't the RAM, I'll be without a Unity machine for a couple weeks... And I was getting ready to buy a Macbook Pro, too. I'm going to need a new notebook to play my new Unity stuff on. I haven't seen a PC notebook I really liked yet, but I didn't really shop around yet.

Back to OS X, there are a couple things the bug me about it:

Why do we have to close an application -twice- to shut it down? You close the window and then you have to go back to shut it down from the menu also? How dumb is that?

Multiple desktops is coming with Panther, but it should have been in OS X a long time ago. All the Linux distros have had it for years. "VirtueDesktops" is OK, but doesn't come close to what is available with Gnome or KDE.

The little green button with the "+" doesn't always scale a window to full screen, why not?

I don't have an issue with XP's file browser (although there's a "nesting" bug that always seems to crash at the worst possible moment) and "on the right computer" it's rock solid stable.

Features-wise, I really like KDE (although stability and application selection wise Linux sort of stinks).

 

Just quit it once, from the menu: That'll quit the app (and close the window with it).

Cheers,

Luis.

 

I quite like that my IDE doesn't shut down just because I happen to close all my windows...

Same with Photoshop. It takes 30 secs to launch, so hitting CMD-Q to actually quit it is fine with me ;-)

The idea behind the + button is that it should zoom the document to max size. It doesn't always work, but I generally like that I can use it to zoom a doc to be "big", but not take over my entire display - which is practically never what I want.

But I would kill for cut/paste in the finder. Or maybe I'd just kill the finder...

 

Actually, I still haven't figured out cut and paste in OS-X. I'm used to right clicking and cutting, then go to my other app and right click, paste. I find that, depending on the application, "paste" isn't always an option and I often have to go to the top edit menu.

I've run into other little irritants in OS X, but can't remember what they are at the moment.

BTW, my system hasn't crashed yet... (fingers still crossed)...

 

Generally, random and frequent crashiness usually seems to be the result of bad or improperly seated RAM. It's not something you should have to put up with as a matter of course, that's for sure....

Well, no, that's intentional. Just because you've closed all windows doesn't mean the program should quit...I very much prefer this functionality, although the problem is that it's not applied consistently. Some programs do the "quit on closing last window" thing which is annoying....

Leopard.

Yep. Although judicious use of Exposé + CMD-Tab + CMD-H makes things quite bearable. I didn't get into OS X until Exposé came along because otherwise a single-screen OS is just too aggravating for me.

It's supposed to make a window big enough to fit the contents, not go full screen. This does seem to actually work in practice, though I virtually never use it.

I used Linux on a G3 for quite a while and mostly used Enlightenment, which was slightly flaky in some regards but I found Linux completely stable, in terms of never crashing anyway. In terms of usability I found OS X to be light-years beyond KDE or Gnome or Enlightenment, at least for the versions I was using at the time a couple years ago or so. It was fun to fiddle around with Linux but I don't think I could go back to using that as a primary OS.

Consumer Reports doesn't have advertising, so I don't think they can be bought. Like any other big company, Apple has lots of people with varying abilities, and some do great and others not so great. I've seen stories of how well Apple handled certain problems, and some horror stories too. I have no personal opinion because I've never had to deal with them. I bought my G5 from Amazon (who did a good job; another company you sometimes hear horror stories about)...I was going to buy Applecare but put it off and then missed the deadline....

--Eric

 

Ha! Some of your complaints are deliberate design choices that Apple has made according to their different approach to computing, and actually make a lot of sense when you use them:

Apps not quitting when you close a window follows the idea that each app is a sort of "work environment" separate from the "windows" (no pun) it produces. I have a number of apps I use that are windowless, and some which I leave open but empty as development centers. Photoshop is a great example for me, too.

The green button means "fit to content" not "maximize to screen." I don't use it that often because its behavior can sometimes be unpredictable, but I'd like to reassure that it's not *meant* to fill up your entire screen with a window that's 80% white space. Again, it's a non-windows-centric workflow thing.

There are some things that Apple has caved on, I think, like the multibutton mouse and multiple desktops. Esp. vs. expose, multiple desktops doesn't fit that well into Apple's guidelines for "everything's right in front of you" that well. But I'm sure they'll try and incorporate the philosophy somehow.

 

Err, well, yes I guess I am more of a Windoze guy, but my first real computer was an Apple IIe and I've owned an Apple Mac Plus and Quadra AV over the years. I've also worked with Sun OS, Amiga OS, Unix, Linux and every version of Windoze (except Vista) so I think I'm at least a little "bilingual"

It seems to me that Mac OS used to have a "expand to full screen" icon on the window, what happened to it with OS X?

I'm using VirtueDesktops until Leopard (Panther, PussyCat, whatever it will be called ) and I find it easier to run 4 apps full screen this way. But I still find KDE/Gnome better for this. With KDE/Gnome I can drag an application across desktops very easily.

About the "close the app from the menu bar" thing. I stopped doing that for 2 reasons: first, Thunderbird, Firefox and a few other apps would lock up or crash when I did this (no idea why) and I just find it a nuisance to have to move my mouse all the way up to the menu and click a couple times to close. Windoze and Linux I think got it right, single click and away she goes...

Won't even talk about the nipple mouse, mine just doesn't like me :cry:

Ok, who's keeping track, my iMac still hasn't crashed. I think we're getting close to breaking a record here...

 

If you want to close apps quickly, the venerable command-Q keyboard command is universal, and another favorite of mine is right-clicking the app icon in the dock and selecting Quit (which will change to Force Quit if the app is hung).

 

oooo... that's a good one. Thanks!

 

Here's some opinionated lunatic rantings. No one take offense please:

There was never a "waste the screen" button on MacOS windows. It was always "fit to content."

Command-Q to Quit is your friend. It's 100% consistent, unlike alt-F4 on Windows (which some Windows people freak out about if I use, like it's dangerous or something.)

"All the way up" to the Apple menu bar is the fastest and easiest mark to hit. Just throw your mouse upwards with abandon, I promise you won't overshoot.

The Blighty Mouse is an abomination and epitomizes the worst of Apple at its worst. Sorry you tried to use it. #1 rule for professionals that buy an Apple computer: Crush included mouse under heel, insert Logitech mouse.

Embrace the design. Menus on Apple are logically positioned and they STAY PUT. (Computer level(The Apple), App level(App Name), File level (File), commands for editing file) Use the desktop. It's nice. (Ignore the 5 folders named "clutter" on my desktop though.) Drag important folders to the "favorites" section on the left of Finder windows when working on a project. Drag them off when you are done with it. Alt-Tab and Alt-~ are almost as useful as Expose.

Give Dashboard a chance. It's slow at first, but you'll just load it right away when you sit down to cache it from now on. It's the best place for a calculator and a dictionary/thesaurus and a calendar EVAR.

I'm not usually like this. Forgive me. I love me macs. Apple has proven to me over and over that it likes me. I give it trust and it feeds me things I've always wanted but didn't know it. For instance, I never thought I'd have time to explore my musical ideas and GarageBand appears.

Oh, and it seems to inspire savvy developers to become user experience centric. Look at Unity. There are reasons it grew up on the Mac.

(conversely, ports of Windows products are often sucky. Would you believe I use a scriptwriting program that won't scroll using the scroll wheel? Ugh.)

Hope your iMac stays fit.

 

Oh... and regarding cut/copy and paste:
The options are in the Edit menu, but the quick and easy way to access them is CMD-X, CMD-C and CMD-V.

Easy to remember; the X will ex (ie. cut) the data out, C is for Carbon Copy and V is right next to the other two on the keyboard.

 

Which one is that? I use Final Draft and think it's very nice and mac-like.

 

Hi,
first of all I can't remember when my Mac crashed the last time. I think my Intel iMac didn't crash once since I have it (Feb. 06). So my experience is that OS X is rock solid.

Second, do I understand that job offering right

http://unity3d.com/company/jobs.html

and the Windows version of Unity is already under development?

Bye,
Martin

 

Don't worry. I would always prefer the Mac version. :wink:

Bye,
Martin

 

I like the multiple desktop implementation that Apple has done with Leopard. Probably what I like best is you can drag windows from one desktop to another. At least to me it seems to fit in very well with Expose.

Unless you have that set up as one of your Expose corners

 

Freyr, I think the references were to cutting in the Finder which, inexcusably does NOT work. At least there is copy and paste and undo in the Finder. In the end, I just stick to drag and drop.

Also, I'm using Movie Magic Screenwriter 2000 which is mostly okay... except for that one crucial blemish. Seriously, I think a program like Sophocles is going to knock Final Draft and MM Screenwriter off the block some day. (It's currently Windows only, but he's considering a Mac version.)

 

@bigkahuna
I have the impression that you've hijacked my thread completely and so i demand free surfing training lessons from you! Either you agree or you get sued... ;O)

 

My appologies Taumel. Guilty as charged. We've credited your account one free surf lesson. Did you want the complimentary bikini wax that comes with that?

 

Definately! I want everything which makes a complete fool out of me and immediately identifies my as a tourist.

But i guess for the beginning it will be sufficient to wear my blinding white swimsuit called skin... ;O)