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Open-World MOBA Game Design

Discussion in 'Game Design' started by jonkuze, Oct 30, 2014.

  1. jonkuze

    jonkuze

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    I just noticed this new Forum Category and thought to begin a thread about Open-World MOBA Game Design. I think this is a brand new idea, and so far I seem to be the first to be designing and developing such a Game.

    While being the first to come up with the idea of an Open-World MOBA style game sounds exciting, it's also very scary because that means I'm all alone out here experimenting and hoping it all works out for the best with my upcoming title "Heroes of Rune".

    If you want to learn more about my game you can check out the work-in-progress thread here: http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/heroes-of-rune-the-first-open-world-moba.258102/

    The initial idea of an Open-World MOBA was inspired by MMORPG and MOBAs. I personally always enjoyed MMORPGs but these days I have very little time to commit to an MMO, then I discovered MOBAs. I have since began designing a game that merges the third-person experience of an MMO Open World into a MOBA style game. If you review my game's thread above, I think you can get a pretty good idea of how I plan to do this.

    Although this seems like a cross-promotion for my game Heroes of Rune, I'm actually very curious about how many other Unity Developers are interested in designing a similar kind of game, or possibly already have one in development. I'm interested in getting some feedback of coarse regarding the design of my game Heroes of Rune, and discussing other possibilities of what an Open-World MOBA could be.

    If you have an Open-World MOBA in the works, have any feedback or questions about my approach, or ideas about such a Game lets talk chat about it. ^_^
     
  2. AndrewGrayGames

    AndrewGrayGames

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    I do have questions about your approach, on a fundamental level (as in, "I'm interested", not "I'm being critical.")

    Open-World and MOBAs to my perspective have really two different focuses. Open World games are fun because they cater to exploration. MOBAs on the other hand are cool because, despite being constrained environments that serve as an Arena, in part they set up opportunities for clutch 'counter-plays' and incomplete information problems (is the jungler counter-jungling in our stretch of the jungle? Are they at their red buff?), which comes off to me as more of a chance to express a 'Killer' mentality (which, I dislike the name, because a Spade-type player enjoys interfering in other players' experience - these are the guys who hunt glitches to brick auction houses in MMO, they don't just gank newbies.)

    The problem is as above, though. If you've got a large open world that's ripe for exploration, chances are good that the 'play timer' is much too long; this might be me mentally imposing The Elder Scrolls: Skyrim onto League of Legends' mechanics, but if it takes 10 minutes to reach a place that was under attack is already taken and the enemy has since moved on to another target. This is bad for all involved because they can't react as quickly (if they can't teleport on a frequent basis), but also because the defender's advantage is huge (the attackers will take 10 minutes at least to stage another assault.)

    How are you planning to get around these problems? The only thing I can reason is you're going to have to find ways to constrain your open world to be conduicive to the arena gameplay.
     
  3. RockoDyne

    RockoDyne

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    Wha... eh... open world arena? Huh? How is this not just an MMORPG? I don't really want to deflate your marketing pitch, but I'm not really seeing how it's anything but an MMO with a not uncommon PvP system.
     
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  4. jonkuze

    jonkuze

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    It seems like your asking in summary "how the hell is an Open-World MOBA even possible?" LOL! well yes, I think the first thing that comes to mind when we think Open-World, we think huge world to explore. In my case, No I don't have nor plan to have a huge Open-World environment. In Heroes of Rune, Players can Reach the Opposing Team's Base on the other side of the Map in under 30 Seconds. So with that in mind, the Map is not massive, it's also not very small either, it's between a small scale to medium sized map I think. While I did say Map, the Map is Considered Open-World because I am not restricting Players to Travel Down Lanes, or Confined Jungle Areas... the Map is Totally Open!

    While designing an Open-World MOBA Game like this, I could not keep the MOBA Tradition of Towers or Spawning Minions for Pushing Lanes as there where no Lanes or Towers for Minions to Attack! I did something interesting....

    I borrowed some elements of a Gameplay Mode called Onslaught from Unreal Tournament 2003. In UT2K3 Onslaught 2 Teams would Fight to Control the Map by Capturing Nodes, if one Team Captured 3 or 4 Nodes that Linked to the Opposing Teams Base, you can then Siege the Base, if the Base is Destroyed the Team Wins or Lose.

    In Heroes of Rune we use Rune Gates, where an Opposing Team needs to Capture 3 out of 5 Gates before the Enemy Ancient is Open for Attack. Although the Ancient will be Pretty Powerful, so Players will be Forced to Roam the Environment Searching for Mobs or Other Players to Kill to Earn Exp and Gold. Players Level Up, Purchase Items, Buffs, Upgrade their Skills, and Best of All Players Get to Spawn their Own Minion at a Rune Gate Owned by their Team. Players can bring those Minions into Battle to Fight against other Players or Mobs. I think between all of this, there might be enough going on to keep the gameplay very fun and dynamic, at least that's my hope! ^_^

    I also few other features that will be unique... I plan to leave out the Time Waiting for Player Match Ups based on what Heroes you Select. It's going be a little challenging, but I think it's possible to balance out the Hero Characters where It doesn't matter what Hero you select, and you can instantly Join any Game in Progress, or Start a New Game Instantly. You will just need at least one opposing Player to Join the Game then the Game will begin... similar to how FPS Matchups work.

    Finally, we have a Quest Mode that allows Players to Relax, Play Coop, Decide when to PvP or Not, Explore, Fight Monsters, and Raid Bosses... overall it will feel like a very Lite-MMO. Everything the Player accomplish in this Play Mode will not be in vain as they can earn Account Level Battle Points that Bump them Up the Leaderboard Ranks slightly, and when earning enough Battle Points you can Unlock additional Heroes or Skins.

    That's the gist of what I have planned for this Game... ^_^
     
  5. jonkuze

    jonkuze

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    Well it's NOT an MMO at all... it's a MOBA all around, but taking some elements out from the Traditional MOBA Design, and merging in MMORPG third-person perspective, Open World environment/map (not huge environment), RPG elements of coarse, along with adding in a twist of new gameplay modes to bring it all together.
     
  6. RJ-MacReady

    RJ-MacReady

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    It's massive, it's multiplayer, it's online...

    The audience erupts: "ISN'T THAT JUST AN MMO?"

    "No, it's also an RPG."

    So it's a... mmorpg...... ... .. .......

    I think I know what topic I'm making next.
     
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  7. jonkuze

    jonkuze

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    huh? lol... im confused... are you saying Open-World MOBA = MMORPG? Are you sure about that...? lol...

    Last I checked 3 vs 3, or 6 players per a Game Session is not considered an MMO... I'm not even talking about a persistent world here.... Persistent World is one of the main features of an MMORPG which Open-World MOBA, or MOBA does not have...
     
  8. AndrewGrayGames

    AndrewGrayGames

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    Not gonna lie, that was most of it.

    Either way, what you're doing sounds a lot like Arathi Basin in World of Warcraft, which in my opinion is a great thing, I love tha battleground.
     
  9. RockoDyne

    RockoDyne

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    So on the scale of worlds/maps, are we talking Skyrim, ARMA, Battlefield, or just barely bigger than a CoD level? Now I'm more thinking you've basically butchered the term 'open world' to just mean large maps.
     
  10. jonkuze

    jonkuze

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    I will need to check out this Arathi Basin, is there a way for me to quickly gain access to this Battleground without going through much of the game lol? I just want to see what it's like since you mentioned it.
     
  11. AndrewGrayGames

    AndrewGrayGames

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    Trial account, Lv.10. Have fun with that. Alternatively, you could play Star Wars: The Old Republic (it's F2P), and you could fight Alderaan Civil War (also at Lv.10), it's much the same just on a smaller scale. For what you're thinking, AB is a better 5-node, 'large-scale' example, while ACW is a good small 3-node example of the game mode.
     
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  12. Deon-Cadme

    Deon-Cadme

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    @Kuroato - First of all, I followed the link and your game looks really promising. I love the solid style that run through everything I saw in the video.

    On the other hand, you are not receiving the response you expected because you have misunderstood some stuff.
    • Open World - Is a term used for a game that doesn't lock you to one or a few predefined paths. Most MOBA:s that I have tried fit this description because the lanes doesn't lock your movement, they only guide you but some games allow you to head into the "forest" and others allow you to carve new paths. Lots of modern games are open world but it is typically used to market games where the feature is more prominent like GTA.
    • Third-Person Perspective - There is no "MMORPG third-person perspective", it is simply called third-person perspective and it means that you control one or more characters from a distance. This can be over the shoulder like in Mass Effect or from a greater distance that give you a better view of the surroundings like in most RPG games. The next step is called "God Perspective" when you manage a city, civilization or similar.
    • MOBA - Is an abbreviation of Multiplayer online battle arena and the original idea was that they took a PvP map from a MMORPG and adapted it to a game of its own without the MMO part. Basically, that makes a MOBA a PvP focused Multiplayer RPG to be exact but it turned into its own genre due to its immense popularity... and it is easier to pronounce then PvP Multiplayer RPG... :confused:
    • MMO & Multiplayer - There is no clear definition between MMO and Multiplayer in the games industry but most people call a game with 2 to 64 players a multiplayer game and tend to start calling games with more then 65 to 128 players a mmo but that is a gray zone. Typically, most industry veterans tend to agree that a game that supports 150 or more players are a real MMO but some people even set the bar at a minimum of 500 simultaneous players.
    The problem is that your OP sounds like a marketing person that had to much coffee. From what I can tell, your game is definitely a MOBA, very close to the original concept with some minor twists and nice graphics.
     
  13. jonkuze

    jonkuze

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    Na there is no Butchering... Large Maps are Large Maps... in FPS Games we could probably call Large Maps Open-World because you can go wherever you want in the Map and Decide if you Want to Kill People or Not, or Just sit there and let your Team Lose lol... You have that Choice which is Part of what Defines an Open World Gaming Experience. Although when we think Open-World we generally tend to think Grand Theft Auto or MMORPG because they are the Games that happen to make use of the term Open-World more often than any other Genre.

    It's all a matter of perspective... Open World according to Wikipedia is defined as the following:

    An open world is a type of video gamelevel design where a player can roam freely through a virtual world and is given considerable freedom in choosing how or when to approach objectives. -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_world

    For me the Key Words are Roam-Freely and Considerable Freedom to Choose how or when to Approach Objectives.

    In my Open-World MOBA idea, Players are not Restricted to Lanes which Traditionally would make a MOBA game abit more Linear as they are designed to Force the Player into Defending or Moving along 1, 2, or 3 Lanes... while my idea is removing this and having no barriers of movement besides where we end the Map on each side. Players also decide how to Play, you can run around Capturing all the Runes Gates in my game, and do little damage to players and ancient and die quickly... or decide how and when to level up, fight other monsters, or just hunt players strickly... there is some degree of freedom within game...

    there is also the second gameplay Mode that I am offering which Truly allows the Player to do what they want, when they want... but still it will feel like a MOBA because the map and number of players are not massive...

    so yea I may be walking down a fine line, or grey area but I think I have all the right things in place to make the claim of an Open-World MOBA... I mean really it doesn't even exist so that's really the Point of this Thread! If I am not defining an Open-World MOBA according to what you may think is or should be defined as an Open-World MOBA then the floor is yours share your thoughts on how to make it possible, or make it better! ^_^
     
  14. Zaladur

    Zaladur

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    Can you explain how this would be any different then, say, Dominion in LoL? Here, you can at any point go for any of the 5 nodes. You can set up jungle ambushes, you can contest the buff in the map center, you can sneak around the map in a stealth character avoiding fights altogether.... In the end though, you have a timed objective against another team, which is going to severely restrict what you can do. You can choose HOW to approach that objective, but your 'free roam' is not really an option. Neither is your 'When'. You can attempt to time an attack to coordinate a two-pronged attack against a foe, but you can't really afford to go explore that mountaintop while the rest of your team attempts to win.

    So I guess my question is - what is going to give? Do you hamper your competitive aspect, not really giving teams a set objective and allowing players freedom? (thus no real 'Battle Arena').

    Also
    Simply limiting the mapsize and players doesnt turn it into a MOBA. I need help understanding how just making a map and letting players run around doing whatever is a MOBA.
     
  15. jonkuze

    jonkuze

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    Thanks for the Feedback! Good Info...

    Honestly I really don't want to promo my game, I even made a reference to that in the OP. I really am just using my game as an example to base this thread off of because I don't know of any other MOBA that is considered to be Open World. Or in other words, a MOBA that is played in Third-person perceptive with No Lanes. I don't know any other way to term a MOBA that does this besides Open-World MOBA. I highly doubt my game is comparable to games like League of Legends or DOTA because I'm not following their Game Design Formula, maybe alittle, but mostly heading in a totally different direction. If I simply called what I am designing a MOBA that will immediately have people thinking to compare it to League of Legends or DOTA, and I honestly am not interested in competing with them at all..
     
  16. RJ-MacReady

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    Have you seen what Disney is doing with their IP's? Infinity, pretty crazy stuff from a kiddy company. When my daughter is older I'm buying "her" that stuff, that way we can chill together without doing mind numbing girly stuff. Also, check out Skylanders. Your game reminds me of these.

    I guess since I'm a design snob, I will just tell you that from where I stand I think it looks good and seems interesting, but where does it excel? I understand that it's a semi unique genre, and haven't played it obviously, but what does it do that... for example... WoW doesn't do? I find the idea of a "casual pvp" to be inherently contradictory.

    I'm the kind of person you'll have to deal with, so might as well so it in a nice, controlled environment. :)
     
  17. jonkuze

    jonkuze

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    I haven't played Dominion in LoL but I think I should definitely put that on my to do list, so thanks for mentioning it.

    At the end of the day this all comes down to a matter of how we all define what a MOBA is and what Open World is... we can go back and forth all day... I'm not here to promote my game, or defend it rather I wanted to share my idea and perspective of what I considered to be an Open-World MOBA and my definition may not ever be in alignment with some of your ideas of how to define it.

    I'm more interested to learning about how you would define or design an Open-World MOBA... maybe my idea might be slightly off, but i'm open to discussing how to make the design of an Open World MOBA Better! ^_^

    Please note I never stated that scaling a small map and limiting players makes the game a MOBA, i'm saying it will feel like a MOBA and also feel like a lite-MMORPG played from a Third-person perspective.

    Again it all comes down to perspective of how we define it all...
     
  18. RJ-MacReady

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    Okay the point of the battle arena is for everybody to kill each other so you want to keep them in a relatively small controlled area that encourages them to keep running into each other.

    The point of the open world is to give people enough space to spread out so that they might pass other people but for the most part they can go about their business and sort of have the world all to themselves.

    Inherent contradiction.
     
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  19. AndrewGrayGames

    AndrewGrayGames

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    Dominion follows the same control points ruleset. Its good, except that Riot made it not matter. Jerks.

    As far as a open-world MOBA is concerned, I dont see the existing tropes and rulesets working well in an open-world setup. Lanes exist in LoL for a reason! You may want to fundamentally consider how to make a MOBA coexist with open-world conventions from scratch. As good as extant art is concerned, it might be a better idea to play them, then disregard them and do something radically different. I think you're breaking new ground.
     
  20. Zaladur

    Zaladur

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    I'm going to play not-so-negative Nigel here and look at this as a problem that needs solving. I think right now i am reading your pitch as a mashup of buzzwords with no direction behind it, but maybe I can try to get to the core of what you are thinking.

    First off, I did want to point out that Third person MOBA has been done - look up SMITE. That might give you the atmosphere you are seeking.

    Ultimately, it seems like you want a MOBA with more freedom, correct? I still think 'open world MOBA' is a bad term for it, but lets explore the idea. The reason that players in LoL/ DoTA stick to their lanes so well is that it has become the most efficient way to secure objectives - gain money, push lanes, deny your opponent. If we want to allow the player more freedom, why not lighten the objectives - at least initially. What if hard objectives did not become an issue until well into the game - 15, 20 minutes? We make the map bigger, and we allow, essentially, an expanded jungle with many more miniature objectives - so many that you can pretty easily find something to do if you just look around, and aren't forced to contest them (Unless you decide your objective is "hunt other players").

    The goal, initially, is just to grow in strength. Battle monsters, seek out treasure, explore the map to gain intel, hunt down other players.

    Now, as the game progresses, less and less objectives on the map become available. Certain monster camps will never respawn. That treasure chest you opened on the mountain? That was a one time deal. Slowly your available options are diminished, which means - yes - you need to focus harder on your opponents as objectives. At the same time, perhaps open up larger, important objectives that will become a focal point for battles. Maybe the objectives that open up are a reflection of how players played the game initially. If a ton of treasure was taken from the map, the Dragon awakens from his Den. Slay him for even more treasure. Were there a lot of player deaths? The necromancer, who has been feasting on their souls, reawakens and terrorizes the battlefield. Your decisions on how to play the initial phase of the game have an impact on how the second phase unfolds, enforcing the concept of freedom in playstyle.

    Eventually, maybe 30 minutes in, your player forces are strong enough to advance on the home base of the opponent, which previously would have been impossible to assault because of its power. Ultimately, the end goal is to eliminate the enemy base. But the way the game unfolded was largely dependent on how you (and others) decided to play that round - enforcing the concept of flexibility and freedom. Balancing this would be a difficult task, but I can see some potential.
     
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  21. RJ-MacReady

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    Or just make everyone fight for the same limited resources.

    You can wait for a respawn, or eliminate the competition. :)
     
  22. RockoDyne

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    Yeah, you didn't just butcher the term, you already made sausage out of it. If all you did was make a MOBA with a bigger map that doesn't have lanes, but it is still a lobbied match in an arena, you didn't really change the formula any of a MOBA. Your biggest misconception is it isn't the level that lets you do anything, it's the game. That's why it isn't open world level design, but open world game design.

    The issue is these two concepts are fundamentally opposed to each other. You might as well be talking about a game about player freedom, but you play an inmate.
     
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  23. Zaladur

    Zaladur

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    A truman show game. You think you have all the freedom in the world, only to slowly discover you are a character in a video game. Invisible walls rise to block your path. A fatigue bar appears over your head as you swim into deeper waters. Guards becomes masters at strafing along a doorway, preventing you from ever getting in. You were never free - just another playtoy for a basement dweller.
     
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  24. RJ-MacReady

    RJ-MacReady

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    Doooo itttt
     
  25. RockoDyne

    RockoDyne

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    I got half way through typing that when I realized I could actually do something with it. Maybe not the best analogy.
     
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  26. RJ-MacReady

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    Where did OP go? Why don't people like criticism?
     
  27. jonkuze

    jonkuze

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    OP didn't go anywhere... why are you so quick to say OP disappeared? I was driving home from work where I was originally posting this from... this is a Forum remember not a chat room, lol...

    anyway i'm not other people, I don't mind any of the feedback at all...

    I have barely began marketing the game, so my terming it Open-World MOBA can change from now until I launch some serious marketing campaigns if I find that using Open-World MOBA is not the way to go...

    So i'm happy for all the feedback...
     
  28. jonkuze

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    So there is only one MOBA game that i know of and played that has a Third-person perspective which is SMITE, but even that game feels very confined to Lanes.

    I understand what most of you are getting at, and how I didn't do anything very special here... as that's the general summary of what you all are saying...

    The way I look at it is this... When I think MOBA I immediately think Lanes, Towers, and Spawning Minions that Push these Lanes! and I'm pretty sure most people who think MOBA picture the same thing because this is what MOBA Gameplay has been defined as and accepted as thanks to the major hit titles like LoL or Dota2. Every MOBA after LoL or Dota2 are not doing anything really different... they all pretty much follow the same formula...

    while I may not have drastically changed something game design wise to the MOBA genre, I do think I am on to something very different by removing the Lanes and Opening up the Map for full exploration and movement without barriers of any kind. Players can Jump! So they can even make it to the top some Mountain sides I have in the Map!

    I guess in summary the only thing I did differently was create an Open World Map + Added Third-person view + Design New MOBA Objectives + and decided to call it an Open-World MOBA because I actually have two gameplay modes RPG/Sandbox mode, and MOBA/Area Mode both maintaining an Open World environment or map... I guess the part that I wanted to stress in my game is the Open World environment, map part and not so much the Open-World Gameplay Style that we come to expect from an MMORPG.

    It's a tough thing for me... as I truly believe the game design idea does not fall under a traditional MOBA category. As even if i'm not doing something totally never-before seen as far as Mechanics are concerned, I think the way I am presenting familiar mechanics in a different way warrants a different label other than simply a MOBA... because I am pulling ideas from both MMORPG and MOBA.

    @Zaladur the last Post was Perfect! those are some awesome ideas there! Challenging yes to pull off, but sounds awesome and totally possible...
     
  29. RJ-MacReady

    RJ-MacReady

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    The game is your baby, and everybody thinks their baby is beautiful. A game should be more like a red headed step child. Hmm...

    Never fall in love with your own ideas because they're your ideas or because you've spent a long time working on them. Mr. Miyamoto said that there's no way to know if the game is fun until you play it.

    You tell us, is it fun?

    Feedback Friday is tomorrow. I'd be more than willing to play it.
     
  30. jonkuze

    jonkuze

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    LOL! "red headed step child."

    I am well aware that as a developer, or designer one should not fall in love with their game idea especially if you plan to market, sell, or monetize the game... as the game may very well need to change in various ways to make it profitable, but also to ensure that it is fun! I am prepared to change things, or remove things based on player feedback of the game.

    Is the Game Fun... I would say YES! Is the Game Finished... NO! LOL! Could I Publish an Alpha Build by tomorrow for Feedback Friday possibly... lets see what I can do Tonight!
     
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  31. jonkuze

    jonkuze

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    By the way where do I post the Link to the Game for Feedback Friday?
     
  32. RJ-MacReady

    RJ-MacReady

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    Ask gigiwoo
     
  33. RockoDyne

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    Not knowing everything you're doing with it, I just keep hearing you removed lanes and have to wonder whether you understand why they are there in the first place. The point of bottlenecks in any map is to increase the probability of collision/conflict. Large maps tend to be boring because it's quite possible to never be seen or see others. It's also the reason why these games ramp up the player count.
     
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  34. AndrewGrayGames

    AndrewGrayGames

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    There should be a sticky topic at the top of the forum. I'd wait until Week #3 goes up tomorrow to post the link, though.
     
  35. jonkuze

    jonkuze

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    but I've mentioned a few times already above that I am not talking about a Large Map! lol... yes, you are correct a large massive map could get boring, and players get lost and rarely bump into each other... but that's not the case with what i'm doing.
     
  36. jonkuze

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    I might hold off on submitting the game for feedback friday for now... there is alot more i want to add before I do the next round of testing! I already hosted an alpha play-test and the feedback was positive, but there is still alot missing and with a bunch of design snob developers like Misterselmo playing this "so called" Open-World MOBA that's not fully feature complete... it's going to be a little tough to impress you guys i think lol! so I better have a bit more to show then what I had in my last play-test lol... I'll keep you guys posted.

    in the meantime would love to continue to discuss design ideas... and again @Zaladur last post was pretty cool! but I think some could probably still argue that even your ideas won't really be enough to define an Open-World MOBA style game because regardless how big the map is or how many mini-objectives there are... defeating the opposing team's base will remain the focus of the game and contradicts the definition and purpose of an Open-World Game right? or maybe we can re-define what Open-World can be, and how Open-World Game elements can be used in other Games regardless if it's purely in the Game Design or in the Level Design... hope you can see where I'm going with this as I have been stating... it's all perspective and how we choose to define it!

    Hell if I release Heroes of Rune and it becomes a Major Hit, and everyone begins calling my game the Open-World MOBA, guess what happens? More developers will come along and jump on the band wagon and create more so called Open-World MOBAs following my design idea in the same way developers have tried to clone any other major hit title that breaks in a New Genre like DayZ Mod (Survival MMO), or the original Dota War Craft III Mode (MOBA)....

    as far as I can see DayZ and the Survival MMO Genre is not really a new Genre at all because if you replace the Zombies with Fantasy Mobs, and Player Characters with Knights, and Archers... would we still call it an Survival MMO? Probably not... we'd probably Label it a Action MMORPG or something.

    MMORPG have always had Survival Based Elements for the Longest! We travel around an open world searching for monsters to kill, quests to take on, grab loot, loot, loot, upgrade, buy items, make sure your carrying Potions to restore Mana, and Health if you encounter Mobs or encounter unfriendly Players who want to PK your a$$ depending on what MMORPG your playing lol... although I think they have done alot of work these days to prevent Player Killing now in MMORPGs, but my point is alot of the same survival gameplay elements existed in MMORPGs and are used in Survival MMOs....so is DayZ really truly a Survival MMO just because you run around with Guns, Shoot People, Zombies, Loot Items, Equipment, and try to Survive? Last I checked all these sorts of gameplay features already existed for years in MMORPGs...

    So with that, it's hard for me to accept the argument that I am just butchering words, but not doing anything really different... the same applies for probably many new game genre's that emerged and we easily except them as so because the major popular games that call itself this or that genre is what we set the standard to... hope you follow me.
     
  37. Christian-Tucker

    Christian-Tucker

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    So, I'm sure this has already been discussed in the walls of text that are on this thread, but "Open world MoBA" is an oxymoron.

    Multiplayer online Battle Arena.

    This pretty much states it all, it's an arena, not a MoBW.

    ---

    People keep talking about lanes, and towers, and so forth, do you guys even know what a MoBA is? Check out the Korean game Rakion, or Archeblade, Bloodline champions, etc.

    None of these have lanes, minions, towers, or anything. It's just the players in an arena murdering eachother. That's a MoBA too.


    Your game (While the concept sounds cool) is literally just an Online game with Open world PvP. Not trying to stomp on your pitch or anything, but regardless of how many different mechanics you add into the open world from different MoBA type games, it's still an open world.

    --

    Here's an idea, let's just call it an OpenPvP game.
    The whole OxyMoron thing hurts my head.


    ----

    Holy god this was a low quality comment, Oh well, it's 6am.
     
  38. jonkuze

    jonkuze

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    Well Open-World MOBA is not an oxymoron or contradicting if we allow ourselves to be abit more open minded... It sounds a whole lot like we are stuck on a single definition of what an Open World Game is suppose to be based on who or what game defined it first...

    But o well... I guess I'm all alone here with the idea lol! and that's ok...
     
  39. Christian-Tucker

    Christian-Tucker

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    That's just the thing, game genre's and types are already defined based on the game that defined it first. I'm sure everyone here understands what you're trying to do, and don't get me wrong, it's a good idea, it's just to anyone who knows what the MoBA genre is classified as, saying "Open world MoBA" is like a sharp stick in the eye.

    Think of WoW for a moment, WoW is (A walled)open-world, but it does have MoBA Components (Arenas and Battlegrounds). So what you're trying to accomplish by not instancing some of these features is a great idea. It's just seeing the words "Open world" and "MoBA" side by side don't mix correctly, at-least in my mind, and apparently a few others around the forum, even though they go hand in hand great as far as features go.

    Here's a thinker, if you took WoW and removed all of the safe-zones, is this what you would classify as an "Open world MoBA" or would you consider it a massive battle arena?

    It's all about perspective, I guess.

    Goodluck!
     
    RockoDyne likes this.
  40. dreamlarp

    dreamlarp

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    I think you are missing the point. What EVERYONE has been trying to tell you is these are the terms that bring to mind a certain type of play in the industry. If you market it the way you are most players will make the same associations those here have.

    What you are creating is much like the ultima online champ spawns mixed with yes that bad word (WoW's) Arathy basin. What you are doing is fine in itself though I do see a lack of focus on a main selling point. Just take more care in your terms. It does seam like a marketing intern on too much coffee.

    Be bold and maybe set another feature that would make it a new type of game then you can write a headline like you did.
    Open PvP was a good suggestion.
     
  41. DallonF

    DallonF

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    When I saw the topic, I thought much the same as everyone else: "what on earth is an Open-World MOBA? Isn't a MOBA constrained by definition?"
    Then I took the time to listen to your explanations and it made sense and I think you've got a good idea.

    Your problem: naming things. You're calling it an Open-World MOBA, and that confuses everyone. Think about it: if you're having trouble explaining this idea to other game designers, how on earth are players going to know what you're talking about?

    Find something else to call it, and you'll have a lot more success. Really, what you have here is a sort of condensed MMORPG - that is, you're taking the core gameplay of an MMORPG and compressing it into ~20-minute matches. Let's start there.
     
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  42. jonkuze

    jonkuze

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    Thank you... I appreciate the feedback and yes I do see all of your points... I'm definitely not trying to butcher terms, or give people the wrong impression based on what I term the game as.

    I guess my biggest problem is that I know I don't stand a chance at competing with League of Legends or Dota 2 kind of MOBA games. So simply terming my game idea a MOBA would put me in the category of directly competing with these kinds of games, and that's not what I want.

    While I know I am not creating new game mechanics, I am putting a twist on the MOBA genre by presenting in a very different way that hasn't really be done. So with that in mind, yes I am trying to figure out what is it exactly that i'm creating here lol! and how do I make my idea stand out by terming the game and it's design correctly that would be better received.

    One of the goals of my idea was to provide users with a casual MMORPG/MOBA experience... thus I have two different gameplay modes that offer different gameplay style, but they also overlap because what you do in the RPG/Sandbox mode can serve as training for the MOBA mode... and overall regardless of what which mode you play players are earning Battle Points in both modes that help to unlock other content and provide the player with a Ranking on the Leaderboard. The map is Open World by design, the RPG/Sandbox mode is probably just that, a mini Sandbox, and the MOBA mode is exactly just that as well a MOBA without Lanes, Towers, or Auto-Spawning Minions, and offers a free-roam environment.

    So with all of this... it's hard for me not to term it an Open World MOBA lol... but i'm open to coming up with something else or terming it differently if it is truly a bad idea like most of you so far seem to be saying...
     
  43. jonkuze

    jonkuze

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    Thank you, yes good feedback! especially this one.... "Think about it: if you're having trouble explaining this idea to other game designers, how on earth are players going to know what you're talking about?"

    yea your right... but check this out!

    http://twodashstash.com/2014/10/heroes-rune-browser-based-open-world-moba-ready-beta-sign-ups/

    I provided some info to a game journalist about my game, and I stated it features and open-world environment, then it was titled as an Open-World MOBA... at the time I didn't even call it an Open-World MOBA, but yet the media presented their own perspective on what the game is. Last I checked sometimes when the Media starts terming something something... people who follow those Media sources start to call it that too... and I don't really have any control over what the Media does and what the game could eventually be termed as regardless of what I want to call it... So this is an interesting thing to me... but I know I enjoyed the sound of it because it's exactly what I'm trying to do... a MOBA with Open-World / Free-Roam elements.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2014
  44. Gigiwoo

    Gigiwoo

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    It's this sticky thread: Feedback Friday #3. Please keep discussion of your game in there. And keep this thread focused on the design of open-world MOBAs. Sounds fun.

    Gigi
     
  45. Christian-Tucker

    Christian-Tucker

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    Here's something you could pitch..

    Heroes of Rune, the first play while you wait MoBA. That's right! Tired of sitting at your computer staring at a counter while searching for some people to play with? Roam around in our 3D open-world lobby and practice your skills, combos, and more.

    Etc, etc.

    If you call it an MoBA with an Open world lobby" it starts to come together much more nicely, it's just wording.
     
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  46. jonkuze

    jonkuze

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    Gigi Thanks.. honestly at this point I'm not really sure how to get the Thread on-track to be more focused on Open-World MOBA Game Design, I sort of thought we were doing that by discussing my approach by referencing the game I am actually developing. I didn't mean to focus on my game, or try to cross-promote, I just honestly didn't know how to properly begin the Thread to begin with I guess.

    You are welcome to Lock the thread if you feel it is not appropriate or move it to WIP Forum, but honestly I think it's a bit tough to discuss Game Design Theory without referencing other Games if not our own... in this case I just so happen to be in development of a game that is being termed Open-World MOBA. I think the visuals actually help to open up the discussion, but if you feel otherwise that's fine. I don't know how to edit my OP where it would make more sense...

    again i will not have any hard feelings, if you locked it or moved the thread elsewhere all good! ^_^
     
  47. jonkuze

    jonkuze

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    That does sound very cool! and I think someone shared a similar idea very early on this year, another possibility is toss the players into an open world lobby, then they just need to talk to an NPC to join a MOBA session in progress or start one for others to join.
     
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  48. dreamlarp

    dreamlarp

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    Ok I will help get this thread back on track. One thought I had was this type of game could in fact have both of these but not combined. We are doing just that. Many mmo's have done the same by offering battle arena's or PvP zones like swtor. We are implementing this by making one mode of our game (mech battle fields) all MOBA. Your game looks good but focus it more.

    A developer can offer many types of game play and cater to all types of players, this is the design of most mmo's. But they all pick one to focus on. For instance LoL could put in wide open zones with just killing loot runs lets say to build up gold and loot but thier main focus would always be MOBA.

    Even most of the top FPS's have a quest type mode. But they are still mainly focused on PvP FPS.

    The shotgun method of making a game tying to hit and market to everyone does not work. Provide it all if you would like but target to one main game type.
     
  49. jonkuze

    jonkuze

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    I noticed the title of your game states "Sandbox RPG/MOBA" lol! I have to laugh because it could easily be called Open-World RPG/MOBA as well... but I think your game seems to have more of the focus on Sandbox Open-World Gameplay with added MOBA Game Modes. You seem to be on the right track... and your game is probably more in alignment with an Open-World MOBA style game than mine lol...

    So I guess maybe the term Open-World MOBA doesn't make any sense lol! At least not side by side haha... Although this thread was side tracked into giving me feedback about my game, I still think it turned out well because I actually am now agreeing with the idea that Open-World MOBA is not really a good way to term something, and you are right about picking a main focus of the game but adding on to it, but returning back to the main selling point of the game.

    With that, I think I will abandon the term Open-World MOBA for my game, but hey I think it's still open for discussion about how such a game could be possible if at all... I think @Zaladur is on to something with his idea above.
     
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  50. dreamlarp

    dreamlarp

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    Yes now you get it. Notice we made sure our description stated them so everyone would know our game is not a mix/mashup but has these things in them. with ours it is clear you are trying to combine the game play instead of just including it all. something as simple as a / in your description will change this.

    But the way you are going is not all that bad you can just change a few ways you implement it. Read up on UI champion spawns.

    Back to the subject now. His game had bought up a great subject. How to combine game types. Most of the games today try to include within thier games other game types. We are doing just this also. WoW, EQ2 and many others have done this.

    The question what types of game would be ok to combine and witch ones would take too much from the genre.
     
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