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Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by bibbinator, May 14, 2014.

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  1. goat

    goat

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    Well I bet $20 a month is easily more than Unity's portion of the Asset Store take. It's also a well known ploy to auto-debit bills. I paid thousands to one charity before I got them to stop. They make it as hassle inducing as possible, although I can't claim that for UE4 yet though.
     
  2. pragmascript

    pragmascript

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    I really think unity has spread itself to thin and working on too many fronts at the same time

    • Integration of too many different platforms
    • Aquisition of new 3rd party stuff (playnomics, everplay) while not updating existing integrations (physx, umbra, mono)
    • Too much focus on the AssetStore

    How many of unity's 300+ staff is really working on core engine tech, on stuff that actually matters to most of their customers?

    I think Unity needs to refocus its efforts and stop trying to be an engine that does everything and runs on every platform.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2014
  3. JasonBricco

    JasonBricco

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    This one bothers me. I'd love for much more focus to be on the engine itself so that I don't have to rely on so many third party assets. I use third party assets because of not having much of a choice. But I don't like it.

    I have to worry about whether those assets will stay supported, for example. Plus, I have to pay a lot of extra money. I think that if the features were integrated right into the C++ engine instead, they would perform better as well.

    So I definitely hope to see improvement in this area going forward.
     
  4. marky3d

    marky3d

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    Let's not forget engines such as UE4 are primarily DX11 which makes a world of difference in many aspects such as performance and what can be implemented
     
  5. goat

    goat

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    It seems since you want #2 and than Unity doing a good job at #1 is a conflicted by those that want a better job done on #2. Just what is it that needs to be sold to those of us #1s if Unity is doing such a grand job of it already?
     
  6. Goldfinger

    Goldfinger

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    How is people move to another engine reducing competition exactly ?

    the issue pro users are mostly expressing is the business reality that free users are not directly helping to fund unity's continued development
    baring the 30% asset store free users buy unity makes from that stuff.

    assuming they regularly spend large amounts of money on there then they probably upgraded anyhow

    It is more likely over the next year or two as Unreal 4 matures large numbers of pro teams/users are going end there current projects and switch away from Unity unless things improve leaving unity a large pool of people who spend zero or very little on a few assets unity needs pro to sell to pay the bills.

    epics new business model is money for updates to the engine then you need to subscribe if your not then you get to use the last version downloaded until you resubscribe that encourages Epic to release new features early and often as it means you get access to a continued stream of updates and to keep most users subscribed

    Unity's current model is adobes hated new business model if you stop paying you get no access at all which mean you have to be subscribed even if they don't add anything of worth aka Adobe cloud which has barely changed at all in 2 years.

    and unity perpetual license isn't worth the virtual paper its written on without long term support as the OS changes under you and very quickly on mobile your forced to buy each major version unless you want to let your product die.


    Unity business model is skewed as if they had the Photoshop monopoly epic just made that nolonger be true and epic had to act cryengine had most of the AAA development not using internal engines and Unity had almost everything else
     
  7. goat

    goat

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    Moving to another engine doesn't reduce competition actually but leads some to believe it does. So in there minds that's good enough. When they go out of business it wouldn't be due to competition from Unity Free users, something they'd find humiliating but from those users of the superior UE4 engine because they're just so darn smart. You know, the mindset that say, 'Oh, that game is crap. It was made with Acme. That's what Wylie Coyote uses.'

    As far as being a 'freeloader' I've spent almost $3000 in the asset store and bought nearly $1000 in Basic licenses so I'm willing to bet Unity has made as much money if not slightly more from me than many 'experts making great games' that have 'Pro licenses'.

    Freeloader my *ss. Making Unity Free go away isn't your ticket to the big time.

    Or lets put it another way. If it were huge Company X saying you people are freeloading off our expensive licenses and tech support contracts get lost you'd be outraged.

    'Oh, you there. I see you only have spent $3000 in Unity Pro licenses. You know we are big Company X and have spent $500K? So get lost, free loader. You're wasting Unity employees work time on you when it should be spent on Company X and ruining Company X's reputation through guilt by association. Isn't there like a Diablo XXI for you to go play?'
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2014
  8. angrypenguin

    angrypenguin

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    I hear this kind of thing said a lot, but I don't really understand what is the reasoning behind people saying it.

    A GUI system should be core tech. That's on the way and discussed to death, so lets put it aside. Other than that, what stuff in the Asset Store do you consider should be core tech built into the Unity engine?

    I personally can't think of one thing. There's a lot of stuff up there that's important to individual projects and if the thing there happens to meet your specific needs. I'm pretty sure Unity has openly said in the past that they're only interested in making something core if it's generically applicable to a wide variety of projects. And most of the time I see people complaining about the engine not being "fully featured" and talking about something other than the GUI they're also talking about something that's not actually generic.

    And that's what the Asset Store was intended for, isn't it? Not "come get your GUI system here" but "tile-based pathfinding for RPGs with turn-based combat" or whatever. I don't want Unity working on, say, "tile based map editor", but being able to go to the Asset Store and find a bunch of those is great.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2014
  9. JasonBricco

    JasonBricco

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    The reason for saying it was what I listed below that. I'm not really saying every single thing in the asset store should be in the engine. The asset store is great. But I do think many types of assets should be in the engine.

    So, assets I use are along the lines of...

    1. GUI - should be in the engine. Everyone needs a GUI.
    2. Input Manager (that actually works how I need it to) - should be in the engine. I've heard a lot of complaints now about people wanting an input manager that suits their needs a lot better than the current one does.
    3. A* Pathfinding System - should be in the engine. Maybe not every type of game would use pathfinding, but quite a few types do. And they've gotten it started with their navmesh system.
    4. Visual Shader Editor (Shader Forge) - could certainly be in the engine (along with visual scripting in general).
    5. File Save System (Easy Save 2) - could certainly be in the engine, given they have PlayerPrefs. And PlayerPrefs isn't good. Just about any game needs proper saving.
     
  10. EmoSaru

    EmoSaru

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    If Unity starts delivering on #2, I can pretty much guarantee that the quality and stability of #1 will improve. Why? Because clearly defining and iterating on the core platform APIs will become required, since they will be public. The features that make up #1 will be built on top of a better, more transparent platform, and changes to #1 will be less likely to come with massive changes under the hood (which destabilize the engine, introduce inconsistencies, lots of new bugs, etc.).

    If Unity's animation system had been built as I described a few pages ago (an example of #2), Mecanim could have shown up and interoperated with "legacy", rather than being a massive do-over and an either/or proposition. In fact, if that had happened, somebody could have implemented 100% of the user-facing Mecanim features (and more) in C#, with only the addition of a few new posing nodes to the core engine.

    As somebody with 15 years of experience designing large-scale AAA game-engine architecture, please believe me when I say that EVERYBODY would benefit from #2, directly or indirectly.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2014
  11. SeanPollman

    SeanPollman

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    There has been way too much squabbling and not nearly enough official UT response in this thread.

    If UT wants to keep my studio as customers and users of Unity, they need to start talking, and start laying out a plan. Otherwise as soon as my current project is done, we are done with Unity.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2014
  12. Alexander-M

    Alexander-M

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    Still waiting for an in-depth post.
     
  13. Foxxis

    Foxxis

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    Excellent post! Much better than my attempt to explain this late last night. This really does sum up what is fundamentally wrong with how Unity approaches game engine development. It is a marketing based approach which will get you user numbers (for a while) but your experienced users will become disillusioned and leave. Which is why the current strategy feels like a "hype and exit" business strategy to me.
     
  14. Teo

    Teo

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    They said they are watching this thread even they are to busy to respond.

    They did not said for how long they are waiting feedback on this thread, or when they will actually make any changes and if they will made any changes any time Soon(TM).

    I am in the same situation like you, and I understand you perfectly.

    PS. The preview of new forums was posted about 1 week ago.. I wonder how long will take to see them live. Of course.. this is the last thing I care about.
     
  15. Foxxis

    Foxxis

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    Yep, same here. UT: Comments, please!
     
  16. Goldfinger

    Goldfinger

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    30% of $3000 is $900 so over some number of years you have earned UT around $1900 $400 over a single pro license but anyhow as I said there are going to be users who spend money on unity with free but thats not the majority of users.

    Cannot speak for others my problem with what free has done is not its existence its negative side effects of some of the choices or what is placed behind pro's high paywall

    in hindsight being 20/20 the logo for unity should have been reserved as a seal of quality, but its on free and chanced are high that a bad game made in someones spare time has that logo on it . should they make the bad game sure should unity insist on the logo no. so many forums have the ugh it's unity comments and its growing that needs to be addressed it going to be bad for business in the long term.

    the post effects and most of so called pro features water and the are like second class citizens because of the need to remove them from the free version

    the min max total focus on first time game programmers in the learn unity / documentation for 4.x cycle there need to be a balance there the documentation lacks key information and no examples

    what is unitys default scale for models and physics is it 1 unit to 1 meter who knows not in the documentation

    how do you get the most from bloom post effect script whats a good workflow for getting the most from any of these features

    how do you stabilise cloth examples, best practices, pitfalls ?

    how to get the most from lightmaps and lighting a scene

    getting the most from shadows ?

    list on and on

    I can guess but unity differs as all engines have there quirks and some things in unity do not appear to do anything they could be broken with no documentation and no debug access to the code who knows what the problem is raising a bug is it a bug ? unity answers is just crickets so thats not gonna help.

    the asset store need quality control and unity need to role some important feature into the editor that other good engines have like level geometry brushes you should be able to prototype a grey boxed level and export the fbx out ready for maya or blender etc

    UT need to stop letting such important core features go on as half baked and often abandoned asset store solutions for such thing as material editors and prototyping features are too general that almost all games can make use of them unlike turn based grid navigation and very genre specific solutions which is a good fit for asset store
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2014
  17. tswalk

    tswalk

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    this doesn't bother me as it solve a few issues and provides people who like to make tools to do what they're good at... but if it becomes a wall to expanding API or new features , then I would have an issue with it.
     
  18. Chariots

    Chariots

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    We should really start making a Unity Time™ table on wiki.
     
  19. RalphH

    RalphH

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    It is (and has been) scheduled to go live today.
     
  20. Limyc

    Limyc

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    Wooo! I'm excited to hear what you guys have been cooking.
     
  21. AnomalusUndrdog

    AnomalusUndrdog

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    This thread has had 900+ replies, be patient. I don't envy the job of the people who need to read this thread to get the substantial bits of suggestions, buried in our what-if discussions.
     
  22. Akira_san

    Akira_san

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    Im a single developer and artist too.
    Im for it. I would prefer to use the pro version in exchange for a percent of sold games.
     
  23. Noisecrime

    Noisecrime

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    Really, says they are an invalid format when I try to look at them, could be any number of reasons, but i'd be surprised if they were deleted by mods, they rarely do anything like it, at least not without very good reason.

    Perhaps upload them to any number of online storage or image sites then post links to them here if you want people to see them, assuming that they are just showing the issues and aren't breaking any rules.
     
  24. Graham-Dunnett

    Graham-Dunnett

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    Bibbinator (Brett Bibby) is the Unity Product Manager. He started this thread to give the community a chance to share their views and concerns. It's a data collection exercise. Also, it's a chance for the community to see that Unity people are alive and well, and that we know we need to get better at communication. Please don't expect each and every comment to have a response. This process will result in Brett providing a plan for what happens next. As I am sure you've seen, the response are varied, so digesting this, and talking with the founders and execs at Unity will take some time. This thread isn't the plan. We know the community is hungry, and waiting patiently for more details to emerge.
     
  25. l0cke

    l0cke

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    Exactly because of this we left Unity 1,5 year ago and it was best project related decision we made. We ve started to move forward instead of workarounding bugs and developing from scratch critical features, which does not work properly or are not even implemented. We had also very bad experience with bug fixing. Recently I ve installed latest Unity and majority of bugs I ve reported 2 years ago is still there (various memory leak-related crashes...).
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2014
  26. Foxxis

    Foxxis

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    I am relatively mature and do not often do this, but I fixed that quote for you...
     
  27. darkhog

    darkhog

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    Except:
    1) I don't like coffee - it just doesn't taste good for me, and I've tried all possible kinds of coffee - I prefer energy drinks as they work roughly same, but tastes waaay better
    2) C# > C++. Give me one engine that has Linux support, is at least as good as unity in terms of features and use C# for coding - I'd drop Unity right away for it.
     
  28. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    I'm a single-person studio who periodically does contract work for other people also using Unity.

    That really depends on a lot of different factors. I think a royalty scheme would be nice, but I think a less terrible subscription model (drop out at any time, but lose access to the asset store/updates) would be better.

    "Yes."

    I think that there should be an unlimited Pro trial, but all builds should have "NOT FOR COMMERCIAL RELEASE" in the lower-right corner.

    GOOD GOD NO.

    Sort of. My primary target will likely always be PC. By the time I have the capital to deploy to consoles, I'll likely be well past the point where the cost of a Pro license will be any significant factor.

    In my case, it's that and a terminal lack of focus, so I keep jumping between five different projects. I will consider buying a Unity Pro license if it comes with some ritalin or something.

    I'm currently developing a turn-based shooter, and am located in Canada.

    Everything. Ninja Camp was really cool, having roadmap access and explanations to why certain goals have to be missed would be great too. I'd have a lot less issues with the new GUI being delayed from 3.X to 4.6 if you didn't maintain radio silence for nearly two years.

    Absolutely. Anything that gives a better insight into what Unity does under the hood so I can either work around it or exploit it for my own personal gain is a good thing.

    I think I'd prefer to see the most common questions answered in long-form blog posts. Stuff like "what the hell is Unity doing about the antiquated terrain engine" and "what the hell is Unity doing about the antiquated Mono implementation" would be nice. Especially if it's more than "we're working on it" followed by a wink.


    I like subscriptions like we get with UE4 or Adobe's Creative Cloud stuff where I can pay monthly but drop out at any time, but lose access to things like updates and the asset store. I'd also like to be able to upgrade to an owned license at the end of a subscription period.

    Honestly? Rapid prototyping. Right now I just have a collection of scripts and prefabs I use for blocking out projects, but often I find them to be not enough. In UE4 (and even UDK) I made a lot of use out of visual scripting. While there are assets for this, they never feel nearly as versatile as things like Blueprint.
     
  29. RalphH

    RalphH

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  30. shkar-noori

    shkar-noori

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    was it the teleporter demo?
     
  31. Carpe-Denius

    Carpe-Denius

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    No, the next one, IL2PP. Ralph posted it one post above you...
     
  32. superpig

    superpig

    Quis aedificabit ipsos aedificatores? Unity Technologies

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    No, it was the link in the post directly above yours...
     
  33. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    Got to admit though, that teleporter demo was pretty slick.

    Lerpz should have walked out at the end though. Really missed out there.
     
  34. Teila

    Teila

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    The asset store is fantastic. We have spent hundreds of dollars in our short time here and will probably spend more. However, I have found that many things don't work out of the box or conflict with other assets. Since we are also waiting for a response from Unity before we purchase a Pro license, we have decided to restrict our purchases to things like models, easily reusable in other environments. At least $200 of the assets we have purchased are useless to us due to conflicts or simply not working the way they were advertised. On the other hand, some assets like Terrain Composer and Proportion Animations have made Unity's weaknesses much more bearable, plus the developers are extremely responsive. I just wish their was an easier way to sort out the good stuff from the not-so-good stuff and avoid conflicts.

    There definitely is too much reliance on the asset store. I also think some of us spend money at first thinking we can replace most of the missing features from Pro with asset store items. We eventually realize it isn't going to work but it is tough to pay for Pro at that time because of all the asset store items we have invested in....which could have instead gone to buy Pro. It would be much better if we didn't have to rely on the asset store for some basic features.
     
  35. Wahooney

    Wahooney

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    Okay, another rant.

    Window management in Windows is HORRIBLE!

    I like using the Save Assets dialog, and sometimes when you save, switch focus from Unity, and come back, the UI is locked out because the Save Assets dialog is behind the main Unity window with (usually) no way of recovering it. And if you can by some miracle recover the Save Assets Dialog it's usually completely unresponsive. (I'm suffering through this RIGHT now, hence my post :p)

    And give us script control of the Save Assets switch, useful for tools that make a whole lot of changes to assets and you want to to allow users to leave their desk while it's doing it's thing without checking back to see that the process hasn't halted because of the dialog blocking everything.

    Teleporter is cool, IL2CPP sounds interesting, 4.5 is LATE!!! Getting freezes on quit on Windows and can't use the patched Unity because I need to build stuff to webplayer.

    PS Gimme beta access and I'll shut up :D
     
  36. Waz

    Waz

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    A custom class that deals with all the bugs in Unity input that affect my game:

    * The user needs to be able to configure input in-game, not in an ugly amateur launcher
    * Joystick buttons do not generate GUIEvents, making joystick navigation a huge pain.
    * joysticksNames is meaningless rubbish unrelated to the key event numbers
    * KeyUp events are sometimes swallowed by text fields
    * The user needs to be able to input text on PC systems with no keyboard (eg. SteamOS)
    * etc.

    Basically a pile of fixes to Unity deficiencies, in the most basic of all engine subsystems, user input, all of which would be far more easily patched into the engine itself.
     
  37. goat

    goat

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    Oh, I think I'll stay with cinput for now. I too would like an input system that came with default bindings / GUI for all the different systems and made to look like, I don't know which, probably cause fanboy trouble if you named them, but looked and acted like the big consoles. Of course you could customize the bindings and looks or the user could scroll through different emulators for input...

    The soft keyboard sounds nice too and I've already had occasion for it outside Steam outside mobile Smart devices.
     
  38. Foxxis

    Foxxis

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    Really OT, but cInput is very inefficient. It loops through defined input each frame regardless of whether you need the info or not, and uses strings for lookup. Sadly, there are few alternatives (other than rolling your own).
    @Waz - is your solution tailored to your project or would you consider licensing it?
     
  39. imtrobin

    imtrobin

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    Plenty. Think harder. Mobile Social networking features, IAP, Leaderboards, I have to get Prime31, Or NeatPlug or some others. Shaders, I get Hard Surface, ShaderBox, Aubergine, Advanced SS, Chicken Shader, SkyShop. Mobile movie playback, limited features on Android unless third party. Gyro scope too. Cutscene Manager, previously using Animator Timeline , then now uSequencer, + so much more. Don't get me started on Terrain, Water. Heck, even Unity current features don't work well with each other so imagine all these third party integrations. Heck, even tween we have iTween, HOTween, LeanTween.
     
  40. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    I think the entire movie playback system needs an overhaul anyway. Movie textures are an absolute nightmare as far as performance is concerned.
     
  41. Waz

    Waz

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    Not particularly tied, but its very much a *subset* of what is needed and quite an incremental hack (as each depressing deficiency impacted my project during development). Certainly not something I would want to support (I don't even want to support it for my own needs, I'm just forced to). Certainly it doesn't do stuff like string based lookup, though it does have to loop through all joystick inputs once per frame thanks to the lack of events problem I listed.

    I'm interested to see what the new GUI does about keyboard / joystick navigation, but most likely it will follow the standard trajectory I listed, meaning it probably won't support even keyboard navigation, let alone joystick, until Unity 5.4.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2014
  42. tswalk

    tswalk

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    One thing I wish that could be added to the discussion is related to security... now that we will be seeing everplay, and perhaps new venues for ad sharing and the like.. will there be any focus on providing some built in obfuscation capabilities.

    I know often people say it is a waste of time, but even some basic stuff could be done to help improve this.
     
  43. darkhog

    darkhog

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    Yup, pretty much. I think by default (for intros, cutscenes, etc. - mainly all fullscreen things) integration with something like mplayer should be used and movie textures should be used only when you want something to be displayed in 3D space.
     
  44. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    Yeah. There's an asset for this, but it's $200 and a native plugin, which comes with its own set of issues
     
  45. PhobicGunner

    PhobicGunner

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    I personally think movie textures should have more functionality. Like pause, seek, rewind, etc.
     
  46. Foxxis

    Foxxis

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    PM sent - interested in what you have done and whether it could replace our plan to massively rewrite cInput or roll our own solution. I am not expecting any kind of support, so no worries there. ;)

    Anyway, while slightly off topic I think discussions like these highlight the fact that UT is not focusing on the right things. Things like input *should* be well implemented in the core. As far as I know, input has not changed much since we started using Unity and that is....8 (EIGHT) years ago! So input has just been left to die. Who in their right mind would want to force a user to restart a game simply to reassign controls anyway? I honestly do not know what they were thinking.... Anyway, sorry for the rant. :)
     
  47. Noisecrime

    Noisecrime

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    AVPro_Windows is one of the few assets i've bought and its well worth the price, easily the best video player on the store in my opinion. Its handled pretty much everything i've thrown at it and the developers are always active and helpful. Its a shame that Unity doesn't have better native video support, I had to use its ogg player for a web project and its just horrible.

    I've bought a few other assets and most have been underwhelming or not really beneficial.

    I'd like to see stronger requirements come into play, especially for anything scripting related, with pre-requisites that where appropriate it has its own namespace etc. Now thats not always possible especially if the asset developer wants to support older versions of Unity, so i'd suggest some 'seal of approval' that can mark scripting assets as following best practises or perhaps some basic requirements that Unity can list. Thus the seal would act as a standard where buyers can be given guarantee that it wont cause more problems than it solves.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2014
  48. pierrepaul

    pierrepaul

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    Hi !

    This is interesting. Are you trying to achieve this using generic or humanoid ?

    If using generic, you can always have auxiliary joints in the animations of the base layer and make sure that they stay locked in worldSpace rotation.

    Otherwise, I'm wondering what would be the interface to this ? have an option on layers that tells the animation system to keep the layer's root joint mapped in worldSpace ?

    thanks

    pp
     
  49. PhobicGunner

    PhobicGunner

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    Humanoid.
    I'm thinking some way to have an animation's rotation be absolute instead of relative would be ideal.
    I bet this could be accomplished by checking the animation's root bone rotation, and rotating direct children of the root bone to compensate for the current actual root bone rotation. So that if my character's torso is facing forwards, it would then always face forwards regardless of root bone rotation (hips)
    This could be avoided perhaps by having hips not be the root bone. So that the lower body can be rotated independently of the torso. The particular humanoid I'm using is from an asset store pack, however, so I don't have the freedom to change the bone hierarchy (without potentially screwing up all of the animations)
     
  50. pierrepaul

    pierrepaul

    Unity Technologies

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    Jun 19, 2012
    Posts:
    162
    Hi!

    and thanks @EmoSaru for spending time to answer!

    I agree, and curves certainly did not do a good job at compensating for this. We added them in 4.3 tough.


    Im not sure I understand. What kind of sync are you talking about? ie forcing the full state of an actor into another one? Maybe you have an interface in mind ?

    In 5.0 we have StateMachine transitions and we have Enter and Exit nodes for StateMachines. Dynamic selection can be done on Enter nodes.

    What do you mean ?

    Indeed. We will definitively have that at some point, we started prototyping this. No precise release date tough.

    As for the API you are describing, I think this makes total sense. Here again, we are working on developing a solution for this, it won't make it for 5.0 ( that version is already very big mecanim-wise btw), but we really want to open the pipe after the StateMachine evaluation.

    pp
     
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