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[Official] 5.0 - Feedback request for Reflection Probes

Discussion in 'Unity 5 Pre-order Beta' started by Erik-Juhl, Dec 1, 2014.

  1. Erik-Juhl

    Erik-Juhl

    Unity Technologies

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    Hello Beta Testers!


    We would like to hear your thoughts on our new Reflection Probes for 5.0. Please take a moment to answer the following questions to help us make Reflection Probes the best it can be. Please try to answer all the questions to give us more context for your feedback, especially the questions about who you are and how you plan to use Reflection Probes.


    Who are you?

    What kind of game are you trying to build or would like to build?

    How does Reflection Probes fit into that? What use-cases do you have?

    What are the GOOD things about Reflection Probes that you like?

    What are the BAD things about Reflection Probes that you dislike?

    How can we make it BETTER?

    Do you like the Reflection Probes workflow?

    How do you spend most of your time working with our Reflection Probes features? Anything bogging you down?

    When you learned to use our Reflection Probes, what stumped you or had a steep learning curve?



    Thanks for taking the time to provide your feedback to help us make 5.0 even better!

    Erik
     
  2. pattybobatty

    pattybobatty

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    Who are you?
    Artist for Camouflaj

    Q: What kind of game are you trying to build or would like to build?
    A: Creating Stealth Action game for PC, Mobile

    Q: How does Reflection Probes fit into that? What use-cases do you have?
    A: We are using Reflection probes for every room environment. Things like glossy tile, mirror reflections, High Gloss Metals

    Q: What are the GOOD things about Reflection Probes that you like?
    A: Easy to author within engine, has decent results after you setup volumes

    Q: What are the BAD things about Reflection Probes that you dislike?
    A: Still unclear when you should use Reflection Passes 0-4. Probe volumes are limiting and should support custom volumes not just cubes

    Q: How can we make it BETTER?
    A: Add more support for custom volumes for reflection probes.

    1. I suggest two strategies, First just allow user to point to hand author mesh render that was imported from another 3d Package.
    1a. Second have built in editor that allow user to create volumes within Editor. Probably would need to leverage tech similar to Pro-Builder.

    2. Allow for proxy cards that can be attached to dynamic geo like doors so reflections then support animated states at a minor overhead

    3. Allow for rough proxy volumes that you can attach to character rigs. This function will only support simple geo that you wouldn't need skin mesh render for sack for overhead. You could just parent volumes to the bones to suggest some reflectivity

    Q: Do you like the Reflection Probes workflow?
    A: It gets the job done

    Q: How do you spend most of your time working with our Reflection Probes features? Anything bogging you down?
    A: My time is spent trying to add square volumes that are not square. Then trying to come up with ways to mask the fact the reflections don't align up with the ground correctly

    Q: When you learned to use our Reflection Probes, what stumped you or had a steep learning curve?
    A: The biggest issue we had is that be created our own BSP system and if you leave Reflection Probes to iterative the connection will be broken between them and the scene. Forcing the Author to turn off iterative rendering and having to hand bake all the probes.
     
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  3. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

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    Who are you?
    Nick Konstantoglou, Lead Artist at www.kickback-studios.com

    What kind of game are you trying to build or would like to build?
    Would rather not talk about our next game. It's realistic looking.

    How does Reflection Probes fit into that? What use-cases do you have?
    I had made my own shaders and we had a system that made parallax corrected cubemaps, since I like my shiny surfaces. Having a built in system is more than welcome.

    What are the GOOD things about Reflection Probes that you like?
    They are pretty fast, HDR and convolved.

    What are the BAD things about Reflection Probes that you dislike?
    I don't understand exactly how the parallax projection happens. It seems it autofits to the bounding box of the objects it includes, which could be unwanted some times. If we could have total manual control, it would be cool.

    How can we make it BETTER?
    From day 1, I thought the handles for the box could have a way to snap to vertices (horizontally of vertically), it would make accurate placement really easy. Also a way to re-center the probe without moving the bounds would be cool (you can move the center without moving the bounds if you have edit bounds check, but if you edit the center numerically (to zero them out) is moves the bounds as well. Also, for some reason, there is a HUGE jump in time needed to update when going from 256 to 512 (it should be roughly 4 times longer, but it's much more than that, not sure why).

    Also, an option to include an hdr disc for lights in the cubemap would be cool.

    Edit: Also, similarly to what pattybobatty said, you could implement everything Sebastian Lagarde has ever posted on cubemaps ;) It would certainly be welcome.

    Do you like the Reflection Probes workflow?
    Yeah, it's pretty reasonable.

    How do you spend most of your time working with our Reflection Probes features? Anything bogging you down?
    Well it's not 100% related to the probes, but. I'm having a bit of problem adding the feature to my own custom shaders. I have a skin shader (which uses its own custom lighting) and I'm trying to add support for the cubemaps and it has been a pain. Maybe a cool macro could be written, or proper docs on what happens in the standard shader so we can pick things from it we want to use in our own shaders.

    When you learned to use our Reflection Probes, what stumped you or had a steep learning curve?
    Not much. At least the current iteration of them has been pretty easy to understand. I'm not 100% why box projection is off by default.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2014
  4. KRGraphics

    KRGraphics

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    My name is Kashif Riley and I am an artist.

    I am working on a fighting game.

    It will allow me to quickly to create the probes that I need on a per object basis if I see fit. And setting up box projection is a snap.

    They are quick and easy to set up. Nuff said.

    At the moment, nothing.

    I would love the ability to bake exposures into the probe, just like more HDR renderers have. Having multiple exposures will really help your scenes, especially with rendering cubemaps to be used on objects.

    EDIT: So Reflection Passes at the exposures... could you guys rename this to "Exposures"?

    Very much
    Right now, nothing major is bogging me down. But as a warning to users who plan on using this in your workflow, if you use custom cubemaps, at any time with GI, you will have to rebake the cubemaps.

    I was kinda stumped at first with the settings, but I have caught on.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2014
  5. PaoloS

    PaoloS

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    Who are you?
    Paolo Surricchio, graphics programmer at http://www.camposanto.com/ working on http://www.firewatchgame.com/

    What kind of game are you trying to build or would like to build?

    Firewatch. Geometry wise, an open world game set in the Wyoming wilderness

    How does Reflection Probes fit into that? What use-cases do you have?
    We use IBL lighting so reflection probes are the base of our lighting system. Since we moved from Unity 4 custom lighting solution to Unity 5, we are still porting parts of the rendering pipeline over. Using an IBL solution means that theoretically we would like to fully use this system everywhere.

    What are the GOOD things about Reflection Probes that you like?
    Easy to use, easy to manipulate, good hooks into the standard pipeline.

    What are the BAD things about Reflection Probes that you dislike?
    Nothing really BAD about it.

    How can we make it BETTER?
    Custom meshes for reflection probe influence would be nice; a more thorough api around reflection probes would be great.

    Do you like the Reflection Probes workflow?
    yes

    How do you spend most of your time working with our Reflection Probes features? Anything bogging you down?
    Not really no.

    When you learned to use our Reflection Probes, what stumped you or had a steep learning curve?
    Nothing
     
  6. Cynicat

    Cynicat

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    I do a alot of everything.
    3d artist, programmer, designer, etc...

    dream game is a hack and slash where i go all out on the art and gameplay.

    How to Improve:
    real mip blurring. currently just blends to lower res and looks trashy on middle rough surfaces(metals are often in this range). Marmoset skyshop actually stores a pre-blurred version in the mip. makes it look amazing!

    Reflection Cards, Box Projected is nice but falls short in many areas. also lacks shape dynamism.
    distance based roughness. roughness is a cone not a blur. should be sharper at contact points.

    some built in refresh rate options for realtime would be nice.

    Deffered per-pixel probe sample. do reflection sample in deffered pass. this allows multiple reflections on a single mesh/better localization of reflections. also cheaper as it doesn't pay for overlap. also you don't have to distance check objects all the time. could be an option in CGIncludes prolly.

    Screen space reflections would be really nice as well though not really required. they do make reflections more predictable as well as lightening workload on the artist. can work with less probes.

    loving it so far though, keep up the the awesome! =3
     
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  7. KRGraphics

    KRGraphics

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    I should also add that you guys get major kudos for allowing users to put a reflection probe component per object... wicked awesome.
     
  8. Joachim_Ante

    Joachim_Ante

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    I am surprised and very curious about this comment. We do full convolution on the mipmaps.
    The mip maps should be very high quality.

    Are you sure there is a quality difference for skyshop vs unity builtin?
    Do you have some images for comparison?

    It would be fantastic to get a bug report for a cubemap generated from skyshop vs unity builtin, side by side, where you see it having worse quality.
     
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  9. Luckymouse

    Luckymouse

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    Hi my name is Michael Lam and I'm Technical Artist.

    Q: How can we make it BETTER?
    I have a little request or idea. Since picture can say thousand words, so I make a picture to show what I wish for ;):
    Reflection probe wish list.jpg
    Q: How does Reflection Probes fit into that? What use-cases do you have?
    My main goal here is want to have full dynamic scene like day / night cycle.
    Many user will benefit too, such as attach the realtime reflection probe to a main Character or main Vehicle..etc

    I know new beta that we can make a custom script to update the reflection probe, I think add those common feature in editor make it easier for many user.

    For the scripting wise, we can also add some other conditionals to update the probe via script. Something like if the sun changed, then update ...etc. That user can take care of it for their need.

    How do you spend most of your time working with our Reflection Probes features? Anything bogging you down?
    It will be awesome that If there have new API to convolve directly for RenderTexture Reflection Cubemap. I know now we can only do it via texture import setting. (please correct me if I'm wrong) By the way Blinn / GGX model convolution option will be great too.)

    Anything else about reflection probe: I like it a lot, really sweet!:)
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2014
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  10. Tomas1856

    Tomas1856

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    Can I ask what "Runtime Update" should do? You mean you would choose from script, when to update that specific probe ?
     
  11. Cynicat

    Cynicat

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    okay sorry should've includid pics. =3
    In Unity any surface not completely smooth looks rather trashy:
    Bug3.png
    notice the random pixelation. this happens on almost all middle ranges. also accenting the cubic nature at higher roughness where the edges of the cube show.
    Bug2.png
    and for the grand finally! Skyshop:
    Skyshop.png notice how smooth the reflections look (sphere in the bottom left-ish). they even added glow to the high values in the smooth reflections to act as bloom. looks like GGX as well. it results in a smooth and impressive look to everything. everything just has that look you expect from photography. pretty as balls. pun deeply intended =3. current unity probes look kinda gross when rough and don't have that shinny glow when smooth. just doesn't measure up at the moment sadly =<

    also final note: is this just a bug with my version? i havnt downloaded b15 yet(doing so now).
     
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  12. wetcircuit

    wetcircuit

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    The way I imagined it, is we could have an Inspector option to update after a set time/frame interval (sampling frequency) that automagically take a new probe and swaps it.... So, probably very wasteful but no script needed. Maybe a fade time to blend the new probe with the old...
     
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  13. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

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    You can do that with a very simple script though. I understand the convenience of having it accessible from GUI, but having to script it puts you into the mindset of "hmm, maybe it shouldn't update all the time".
     
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  14. Luckymouse

    Luckymouse

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    Well, After you build the scene, the reflection probe won't update by default. The "Runtime Update" will do pretty much the same way what "Editor Update" does that update the reflection probe when it is in editor play mode and after the build the game.
    I mean the Inspector GUI "Runtime Update" option give user quick access for reflection probe to set it to runtime update mode. I believe that will be helpful for artists of non-programmers. For more complex conditions how to update the probe, programmer can choose the option "Runtime Update = Never Update" and then they write their own code to update it.

    [Edit]
    This Inspector GUI "Runtime Update" is just a suggestion, i know it may cause some performance issue, if user created a lot of realtime update probes in the scene. Ignore this suggestion If it is not practical. I can make a simple script to update it for now.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2014
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  15. Axiomatic

    Axiomatic

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    I've noticed that the reflections of emissive materials, on objects with smoothness values between 50-100% look really bad. It seems the blurring of the emissive shapes within the reflection is at a lower resolution than the reflection maps resolution setting. Specifically I see huge chunky pixelated squares that appear blurred around the emissive objects outlines. Any one else seeing this?

    EDIT: This is exactly what Cynicat was reporting above, albeit he said it better and actually included screenshots.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2014
  16. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    What kind of game are you trying to build or would like to build?
    3D open world Action RPG for PS4.

    How does Reflection Probes fit into that? What use-cases do you have?
    We use them everywhere, they're essential.

    What are the GOOD things about Reflection Probes that you like?
    The results are nice!

    What are the BAD things about Reflection Probes that you dislike?
    As of b12, they don't yet blend. Heard they will though.

    How can we make it BETTER?
    Box projection mapping should be allowed to be rotated? or some solution.

    Do you like the Reflection Probes workflow?
    It's OK. I have the same problem as I do with light probes though, for big levels, it's a real chore plonking them down and fitting them together like tetris. Can't we just stretch out an umbra like area and Unity handles placing them automagically without me having to deal with it? Ditto for lightprobes. That stuff really all needs automating within reason tbh.

    I understand it being manual, but perhaps a compromise could be reached. As for lightprobes, I'd love that to be entirely automated :p Automating lightprobes would give us more editor time to manually deal with reflection probes. So it's a knock on effect.

    How do you spend most of your time working with our Reflection Probes features? Anything bogging you down?
    Placing so many of them and lining them up.

    When you learned to use our Reflection Probes, what stumped you or had a steep learning curve?
    Nah,, all straightforward. Let people know that they're essential or their PBR looks fairly rubbish ;)

    Thanks for taking the time to provide your feedback to help us make 5.0 even better!
    No problem.
     
  17. Luckymouse

    Luckymouse

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    @Cynicat , Joachim_Ante
    I think I found out the reason why default Unity reflection cubemap looks worst than Skyshop.
    In the beginning I thought the cubemap size is the matter of the quality, but I found out the compression is the main issue that cause the reflection looks really bad.
    I baked a reflection cubemap from Reflection Probe with 128 resolution, then compare the mip 3 and mip 4 between Truecolor and Compressed with the same cubemap texture.
    Six_Frame_Cubic.jpg
    ProbeCompare.jpg

    Now you can tell why it looks bad. Also I think the skybox reflection (in Lighting window) is compressed by default.
    I remember I read the Marmoset Skyshop documentation mention that the compression will cause the image quality problem with RGBM texture.
    That should be an easy fix for Unity team, just bake all the internal reflection texture with Truecolor !
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2014
  18. Devil_Inside

    Devil_Inside

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    And maybe let us choose the default reflection size?
     
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  19. pattybobatty

    pattybobatty

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    Another thing that would be nice is having the name of the Reflection probe within the scene dictate the name that is used once the probe itself is baked. In a production setting we want the ability to rename the probes so its easier to trouble shoot. As of right now the probes are always generated with a generic name. You can override this but I have noticed there are times these connection is broken with the updated probes. When this happens it defaults back to the generic name and not the name that is provided. Having a hundred probes named ReflectionProbe-0 - ReflectionProbe-99 is not ideal
     
  20. Marc-Saubion

    Marc-Saubion

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    Who are you?
    I'm a freelance graphic designer / app designer.

    What kind of game are you trying to build or would like to build?
    I work mostly on various serious gaming projects and also aim for architectural demonstrations jobs.

    How does Reflection Probes fit into that? What use-cases do you have?
    It fits in everything since it is complementary to the rendering of the new standard shader.

    What are the GOOD things about Reflection Probes that you like?
    I didn't notice any performances drawbacks so far, which is nice considering the huge graphic improvement they provide.

    What are the BAD things about Reflection Probes that you dislike?
    Their bounds are way too limited and aligned to the world. We need more complex shapes than a pre-oriented box.

    Also, the handles were way too small and difficult to see and now they seem to have disappeared: this is very wrong. :-(

    When positioning a probe and setting the bounds, we have to work blind because other probes bounds aren't shown. This leads to blanks zones.

    How can we make it BETTER?

    I tried Rprobes on bigger scenes and we need tools to make it simple and tidy.

    First, we definitely need a Rprobes mode in the editor: it would mask all non static, show statics game objects in grey and highlight every Rprobes zones in colours so we'd see where we left blanks and easily set them up.

    Second, bounds should be definable with a custom mesh. We could make our own Rprobes zones in a 3D modeller soft, and simply drag and drop it in the scene.
    A "is reflection probe" import option for 3D objects would not use mesh renderer and make them Rprobes: the pivot point of each mesh would be used as the eye of the probe while the mesh itself would define the bounds.

    Here is a simple example: we can see a small piece of level design and the corresponding Rprobes cluster.

    rprobes.jpg

    This is much easier to set up and modify in a soft like 3Dsmax.

    Do you like the Reflection Probes workflow?

    Yes, the basics are good. It just need to evolve.

    When you learned to use our Reflection Probes, what stumped you or had a steep learning curve?

    It was fine but I thought about making such a Rprobes system myself so it felt familiar. Still, i think this is a simple solution and that it is easy to use.
     
  21. philwinkel

    philwinkel

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    +1 for the ability to use custom meshes for reflection probe bounds.

     
  22. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Well regarding the 3dsmax thing above - it's trivial to do that with a simple unity tool. The problem is there's no tapering possible and you have rotation here... I'm not sure rotation would work, and perhaps it's not an issue anyway with blending.
     
  23. Zomby138

    Zomby138

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    Custom mesh bounds/projection is a distant dream. For now I'd just like to see sphere and cylinder projections, those should be pretty easy.
     
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  24. Marc-Saubion

    Marc-Saubion

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    I disagree. Even if you had the right shapes in unity, a modelling soft will offer you a lot more precision and efficiency.

    My demonstration may be accessible because it's simple, but on a full complex level, using a soft like Max would save a lot of time and nerves.
     
  25. tbg10101_

    tbg10101_

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    Who are you?
    I am the sole proprietor of 10101 Software.

    What kind of game are you trying to build or would like to build?
    A 3D, space-based RTS in the vein of the Homeworld series. Spaceships, asteroids, planets, starts, etc. There are NO static objects in my scene.

    How do Reflection Probes fit into that? What use-cases do you have?
    I would love for GI to reflect light off of all the objects in my scene to make it look more realistic and to lessen my need for ambient light. Since space has very stark lighting it would do wonders for me. After all, while orbiting a planet, a large portion of my lighting should come from the reflected light off the planet.

    Fortunately, a single reflection probe attached to my camera and updated periodically does the trick for me.

    What are the GOOD things about Reflection Probes that you like?
    I like that reflection probes can be rendered over multiple frames. It really cuts down on the FPS impact.

    What are the BAD things about Reflection Probes that you dislike?
    None yet.

    How can we make it BETTER?
    Make a detailed video showing exactly how to set the system up, starting from a new project and covering multiple use-cases.

    Do you like the Reflection Probes workflow?
    The reflection probe is fairly self-explanatory.

    How do you spend most of your time working with our Reflection Probes? Anything bogging you down?
    Discovering features and learning how to implement them. But that's just programming these days.

    When you learned to use our Reflection Probes, what stumped you or had a steep learning curve?
    Figuring out where the documentation is. Turns out it is included locally. I had no idea. :oops:
     
  26. KRGraphics

    KRGraphics

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    Could we get some exposure controls for probing reflections? It would be pretty awesome if we were able to control how exposed the resulting cubemap will be... that would make a kick ass HDR map.
     
  27. Marc-Saubion

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    Exposure control wouldn't make any sense since the probe has to reflect the surroundings as they are to insure constant results of materials rendering but this would be a useful option in the materials.
     
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  28. KRGraphics

    KRGraphics

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    I guess I am getting this from using Skyshop so much to capture. I like that if I change my scene such as GI, the cubemaps will auto update. Maybe you guys can add options for steps and exponents, the same way that we create cubemaps from HDR maps

    EDIT: I do stand by my need and want for exposures in my cubemaps. My background is mainly from a CG art viewport and I just want more control over the high and low points in the cubemap. I don't want it in the materials.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2014
  29. larsbertram1

    larsbertram1

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  30. Joachim_Ante

    Joachim_Ante

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    @Cynicat:
    From the pictures you have taken what i am seeing is that:
    * If you use a super high-res cubemap / skybox as a source then things look awesome. If you take a low resolution skybox without much detail then it doens't look so good
    * Also if you use texture compression on the cubemap quality drops quite a bit with RGBM

    That is an obvious one. But it also has nothing to do with implementation and only with the content / setup.

    It would be great if you can do a compareusing the same high quality skybox. HDR cubemap and compare it.
     
  31. Joachim_Ante

    Joachim_Ante

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    The ReflectionProbe.RenderProbe API gives you full control. You can specifiy if it should be timesliced over roughly 7 frames without hiccup on the framerate or if you want to just get the result next frame without caring about the impact on framerate.

    We decided to not expose a frequency control because we dont want to encourage bad usage of this feature. Rendering reflection probes takes time. You have to render the scene 6 times (from each face) basically. So I think it would be dangerous to have them render automatically.

    A better approach is to have a time of day script and depending on when something in the environment has actually changed then you can trigger timesliced updates. The good thing is that this is trivial to do. But a float frequency value, would guide users down an unrealistic path.

    You just write:
    ReflectionProbe probe;
    probe.RenderProbe(true);

    It does all the heavy lifting for you, it does the render, and even full GPU convolution. And it does it timesliced.
    I think that's pretty awesome.

    If you have a time of day system, it should be trivial to integrate it with this API.

    And if you wanted localized updating of probes for indoor environments etc, you could also use the API to change lets say only one probe that is close to the player.

    It does or at least it should and does on my computer and what we tested.

    I am curious what is missing in it that made you think that it doesn't do full GPU convolution for you.
     
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  32. Joachim_Ante

    Joachim_Ante

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    When you say you want exposure. Have you looked at the intensity slider? Do you basically just want the ability to change the slider to values higher than 1?

    Or do you want the ability to change the exposure per material?
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2014
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  33. Luckymouse

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    Appreciated for the reply. I knew the ReflectionProbe API will do the update job and tried already, but so far it is working only in Editor, and did not work after build. I don't know if anyone submitted that bug yet. That problem have been mention in two other threads: Questions about reflection probe in unity 5 @post#18,20,21 and Realtime Reflection Probes display in editor but not in build. Just in case Unity team have not noticed it.

    Thanks for clear that the ReflectionProbe API is doing full GPU convolution.
    Because of the ReflectionProbe API didn't work after build, I'm trying to do a custom realtime reflection cubemap from RenderTexture manually.
    According to Questions about reflection probe in unity 5 @ post #3 and #5. Tomas1856 explained how unity did the reflection convolution is via TextureImporter setting. I might misunderstood him and I assumed (maybe i'm wrong) the convolution from TextureImporter is not GPU based which is expensive to do it in realtime. I made a conclusion for convolution workflow at post #23. Since then no one correct me.
    Anyway, If the ReflectionProbe API will work as expected after build, the realtime reflection problem will be solved. Or if it is not a bug that I will be appreciate If there have a working sample project to show how to update the reflection probe at runtime.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2014
  34. KRGraphics

    KRGraphics

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    On the reflection probe, when I go to bake it, I would love to change the exposure of the probe, such as in a camera, there is -3, -2, -1, Default, +1, +2, etc. Skyshop has an option for baked exposures and after seeing how simple reflection probes are, I would love to see this used. What are reflection passes?

    And I would love to see this same functionality for converting HDRs to cubemaps. The skybox material should just be a constant material, no tinting. Just a cube map and rotation. Maybe you guys can make a variant of the current shader (I use Vue to make my skies).
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2014
  35. Roni92

    Roni92

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    So I'm very interested how they managed to get full real-time reflections on many cars at one time in Project Cars without big performance impact ? Also any real-world usage of reflection probe for me means rProbe as child to dynamic(moving) game objects, istead of placing hundreds or even thousands on terrain/track/level. And imo thats why we need real time update, not to update them because scene gets darker, or whatever... Also not letting us to setup update rate is big mistake. Because now every-frame update kills performance like crazy, and other option(forgot it's name) looks S***ty(very slow) for example on moving car, when reflections are very clear.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2014
  36. 3agle

    3agle

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    What kind of game are you trying to build or would like to build?
    E-Learning applications in hugely varying environments.

    How does Reflection Probes fit into that? What use-cases do you have?
    I'd imagine we will use them for anything in an indoor scene where using a skybox or simple gradient for reflection/specular will not suffice. And most notably windows.

    What are the GOOD things about Reflection Probes that you like?
    Simple enough to set up and understand, good results with little effort, provided the use case fits.

    What are the BAD things about Reflection Probes that you dislike?
    Not flexible enough to be used in every situation, transitions between probes are sudden and jarring.

    How can we make it BETTER?
    EDIT:
    I have just realised the latest beta has probe blending, so much of this can be ignored I suppose, though I don't have the latest beta to test it out right now.

    Smooth transitions between probes, this has been in the source engine for years, would be very useful for removing those jarring transitions between probe areas. Without screen space reflections, this is essential in my eyes. A PBR workflow without decent reflection tech is underselling itself.
    Box projected areas are switched between at the same place their projection boxes are set. If we are to have jarring transitions, we should be able to customise where those transitions take place without messing up the projection (and without overriding a target). This could involve a separate box you adjust that counts as the probes 'catchment area'.

    Do you like the Reflection Probes workflow?
    Yes, it is simple and works well, minus the points raised above.

    How do you spend most of your time working with our Reflection Probes features? Anything bogging you down?
    Most time is spent tweaking minutely the edges of the box capture areas to prevent odd issues of reflections of reflections looking static.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2014
  37. larsbertram1

    larsbertram1

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    i think i can confirm a rather "low" quality of the generated reflection probes.
    especially when it comes to face edges: those get pretty noticeable in case you have rather rough materials like skin.
    you may not notice it if you enable both diffuse and specular ambient lighting – at least not in a still. but it looks totally different if you move the camera as it will get noticeable instantly.
    having only specular ambient lighting you can even see it in a still.

    any smoothness value between 0.1 – 0.3 will simply look pretty poor as the faces of the reflection map will clearly show up.

    reflection probes.png


    and this a a material preview (showing the default reflection from the sky)

    reflection probe probe.png
     
  38. Zomby138

    Zomby138

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  39. Charkes

    Charkes

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    Even in DX9 Unity has edge fix feature not as good as DX11 but it was there.
     
  40. Cynicat

    Cynicat

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    the problem i was having was that the reflections from probes where really pixely. not just the skybox. however in the latest build it seams to be fixed/improved. at least at first glance. one more thing though! i've been messing about and i noticed a really wierd problem:
    while dynamic objects aren't rendered in reflection probes but there shadows are:
    shadows.png

    also dynamic shadows don't show up on lightmapped objects. (i know its not a reflection probe problem.)

    also i don't know if you guys fixed the problem with reflection probes recording a specular highlight or not. since i'm not seeing it here i assume so.
    either way there have been some great improvements to rendering. still needs work but its getting there. =3
     

    Attached Files:

  41. Tomas1856

    Tomas1856

    Unity Technologies

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    Hey, Baked reflection probes shouldn't have dynamic objects in them, those shadows were actually a bug, and will be fixed in latest beta. Only Custom or Realtime probes can have dynamic objects (with shadows) baked in them.
     
    shkar-noori likes this.
  42. KRGraphics

    KRGraphics

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    Good morning @Joachim_Ante, I am looking at beta 17 and I see the intensity slider for the reflection probes, and I would love to see it go beyond 1... like an exposure value. I usually use values like 2 or 3 to get the proper exposure
     
  43. larsbertram1

    larsbertram1

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    no, i am not because i am on mac.
    [edit] and reflection probes are not limited to dx11, are they? ;-)
     
  44. KRGraphics

    KRGraphics

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    Some more feedback on the reflection probes:

    -- I love the new edit modes for setting up the origin and box projection boundaries and how easy it is to set up for things like square rooms.

    -- I love that the runtime intensity is set to 1. Also having the default res for reflection probes in the lighting panel is awesome too.

    -- I can place multiple cube maps in a scene with ease and name them. Only downside at the moment, if I need to change the setting of the probe, I will have to do them one a time. Also placing the probe as a component on an object automatically sets the origin which is a time saver.

    Some things to add/fix:

    -- The reflection intensity should be able to go past one especially for things like emulating how HDR images are generated. I would limit this to three for intensity (Some real world cameras can take HDR photos)

    -- Add the option to the reflection probe whether or not it will be compressed or truecolor (just to cover yourself and save me a click)

    And I think that is pretty much it for me, I love the new changes. Once the intensity is changed, I think we will have it right.
     
    AcidArrow likes this.
  45. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

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    +1 on the compression. Changing the compression on the files themselves doesn't really stick around as well (because, sometimes, unity just deletes the old files and makes new ones, so the compression settings are reset).
     
  46. KRGraphics

    KRGraphics

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    Yep... the lightmapping part is right. I would love to see this on the reflection probes too as a toggle, and PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE allow us to change the run time intensity on the probes past one.
     
  47. Cynicat

    Cynicat

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    Don't know if its a bug or intended to be this way. either way it needs to be fixed. distance is ignored with reflections. really kills semi-rough materials. first an example of distance based roughness from UDK's quad reflections:
    Distance Based Roughness.png
    The reflection probes currently ignore this completely. while this is normal for standard reflection probes box projected needs to take this into account otherwise they look really bad.
    NoDistanceBasedRoughness.png
    this is probably the last real bug with reflection i've noticed so far. but its a bit one as it is one of the main defining features in grounding objects in the scene with reflections. you could prolly just use the existing ray-length. especially once you add your card reflections it will be necessary to make things look right. thanks for your time. =3
     
  48. Tomas1856

    Tomas1856

    Unity Technologies

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    Hey guys,

    regarding intensity, you can already set the value bigger than one through scripting.

    Regarding the UI, we have two options here:
    * allowing to slider to set value from 0.0 to 8.0
    * removing the slider and adding float field, where you could set any value.

    What would make more sense to you?
     
    KRGraphics likes this.
  49. Cynicat

    Cynicat

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    i vote float value. the sliders limits always bother me. wish it would just let me use a slider and set a value outside the slider range if i wanted. but hey, i get that's a nitpick(as you might be able to tell i nitpick alot, lol).
     
  50. ReJ

    ReJ

    Unity Technologies

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    Nov 1, 2008
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    Just to clarify, do you need >1 intensity specifically because you have to adjust exposure of HDR images which were made _outside_ of Unity (most likely with photo-camera), is that correct?

    Adding >1 intensity to Reflection Probes can be a double edged sword, so we need to understand the very exact reason before adding it.

    If it is specifically to adjust exposure of external HDR images, maybe "exposure" property should be part of Texture import settings instead?
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2015
    Devil_Inside and KRGraphics like this.