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Oculus - Quest vs Rift S

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by neginfinity, Jul 30, 2020.

  1. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    I'm mulling over possibility of buying a VR headset.

    Basically it is either Rift S or Quest, and due to region where I'm at, the difference is about $40 with the shipping. Thing is I can't decide which to buy (and whether I should bother - as "investment" is very dubious, and I might end up with a useless gadget).

    I'm skeptical about extra weight and mobile CPU on quest (it gets hot apparently?), and that $40 difference is without buying Quest Link cable for $79.

    In case of Quest, IPD slider and hand tracking sounds very attractive, but video compression and extra lag due to encoding via PC connection sound like something I wouldn't want. There's also matter of lower refresh rate.

    So... does anyone has any bits of information to share regarding the difference between those headsets?
     
  2. DaDonik

    DaDonik

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    I own the original Rift (90Hz) and the Quest (72Hz). There is no apparent difference in refresh rate to me, and i am someone who clearly sees the difference between 60 and 144Hz screens.

    The tracking of the Quest is surprisingly good, but i had to buy some cheap IR diode arrays, to be able to play in a dark room but also have the tracking work. Tracking is good, even in games where you shoot arrows and your hand is often behind any of the cameras. This was my biggest concern when buying the Quest and i have to say that it is not a problem if your hand is not behind your head for a long time.

    Being able to play any Oculus, VivePort or Steam game WIRELESSLY without any noticeable lag is really a great thing.
    Of course, gameplay is a bit smoother on my Rift with 90Hz, slightly better tracking (behind me) and cable connection, but with the Quest i can play without ANY wires. Also it doesn't get hot, even though you drain the battery rather quickly. Mind you i have A/C where i play.

    What i recommend to add to your Quest (this is just the stuff i bought and would buy again):
    Deluxe Head Strap
    Counter Weight Strap
    Anker Astro E1 6700mAh
    IR diode array (works with 2, 3 recommended for pitch black room)

    Oculus does not recomment using an external power source, but everyone does it and it does not get too hot.
    This setup will give you about 2.5f hours of completely unrestricted gameplay where you will never have to worry about any cables and the Quest is nicely balanced on your head (it is by default a bit too front-heavy).

    Edit: Fixed some typos :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020
  3. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    So, uh... is there any strong reason to buy rift s instead of quest?
     
  4. DaDonik

    DaDonik

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    I have no experience with the Rift-S, so i can't say for sure.

    Still, playing wirelessly (ALL PC games, via SideQuest and Virtual Desktop) makes all cable solutions worthless to me.
    The freedom you gain is just too good to be true...but it is true :D
     
  5. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    But you said you have original rift. How does it comapre to that ? (I suppose I'll wait till someone chimes in about Rift S too...)
     
  6. DaDonik

    DaDonik

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    The resolution of the Quest is better than the one of Rift or Rift-S, which is especially visible when you are looking at things like a fence (imagine the fences on the side of a racingtrack). Leads to an overall clearer image.

    The Rift-S has a LCD display, which is supposed to have not as black blacks. Can't comment on that, since the original Rift also has OLED.

    Tracking of the controllers in IMHO pretty much on par with the original Rift, minus all the hazzle it is to setup the Rift cameras.

    And i have to say it again, NOTHING that requires a cable compares to not requiring a cable. Unless you plan to play only seated games. I always found the cable to distract me the most, since you always have to be aware of it to not damage anything or trip over it.
    As ridiculous as it sounds, playing wireless is FAR more immersive in any first person game.
    The only downside when playing wireless is the image compression. It is visible in very dark scenes, but by far less annoying than a cable attached to your head. If the game is any good, you are immersed enough to not recognize it in any but the most dark scenes.

    tldr
    I am not using my original Rift anymore, nor will i ever again use it.
     
  7. Martin_H

    Martin_H

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    I would recommend to pick a device that ends up being a useFULL gadget, even if you don't use it for actual work, as I consider that the likely outcome.

    I have an Oculus Go and the only use it still sees is lying in bed and watching Netflix etc.. But for that I value it highly enough that I'd consider replacing it if/when it breaks outside of warranty. I'd probably pick the Quest or wait for the next iteration of their wireless headsets.


    It's worth noting I needed a compatible android device with bluetooth for the initial setup of the Go, I assume that to be the case for the Quest too. You probably have a suitable smartphone, I didn't. Just thought I should mention it.


    @DaDonik:
    I tried connecting my Oculus Go with my PC via USB cable once to try and get a game like Everspace running. The image compression, framerate, IPD scale and lag where so bad, that I thought "F*** that, I'm not doing this" right at the main menu. It was much worse than streaming VR videos wirelessly. You make it sound like it's not that bad with the Quest. What programs were you using and is there a chance they would work as well with my Go?
     
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  8. ShilohGames

    ShilohGames

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    I have an original Rift and a Quest. I do not have a Rift S, though. I strongly prefer the Quest over the original Rift. I image on my Quest is definitely better than the image on my original Rift. The Quest is easier to set up. The Quest Link feature works really well.

    Having said all of that, I have heard that the Rift S is a big improvement over the original Rift, but I don't have a Rift S to compare to.
     
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  9. ShilohGames

    ShilohGames

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    I also have a Go. The Go is not in the same class as the Quest. The Quest is amazing.
     
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  10. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Actually that was the goal. I've got no space for active movement and there's matter of occasional joint issues which can make things uncomfortable. I do want to check out Alyx, though.

    Hah. Well, this is true enough.
    The thing is I'm stuck simply stuck at indecision phase at the moment.

    Basically, I sorta wanted to grab a headset, and my PC is sorta VR ready, but I can't try the devices live, and has to order from amazon blind, pretty much. The only previous headsets I tried were HTC Vive and DK2. For 60 and 30 minutes respectively.
     
  11. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Amusingly enough, right after posting this, I've found a "VR club" which has Oculus Quest and even rents them.I guess I'll pay them a visit in a few days.
     
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  12. DaDonik

    DaDonik

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    The CPU in the Quest is better than the one in the Go i assume. I also have a Go for watching netflix in bed. Cheaper than a TV on the ceiling and just awsome. Never tried to play anything on it, so i can not say what the PC gaming experience on it is, if that is even a thing with the Go.

    I am using SideQuest and Virtual Desktop. After the setup you just start up the Virtual Desktop app inside the quest, start the VD app on Steam and off you go. Full access to your desktop with no lag and especially no stuttering. I am sure there is a small lag, compared to a wired connection, but i am an avid gamer and i don't mind....so for most ppl it will be just fine. You can now play Oculus games, Steam games and Viveport games...
    I have to say that i have bought a Unify AP AC PRO, just to be safe, because my router is in another room and the wifi
    connectivity wasn't great where i play with the Quest. A perfect wifi connection is certainly required.

    The image quality on the Go and the Quest is the same i would say, just if anyone is wondering.

    If you are playing seated, then you can just use a cable on the Quest, which get's rid of any image compression and is basically the same as a Rift-S with better resolution. You will still have to charge the Quest, but the battery will last a lot longer, since there is no need for wifi and decompression.
    Tough call, i guess the RiftS is lighter and never needs to be charged...pick your poison ;)
     
  13. Martin_H

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    Thanks a lot! I googled virtual desktop and it seems like it needs at least windows 8, but I'm still on 7. I assume you use 8 or 10?
     
  14. Ostwind

    Ostwind

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    It's very hard to notice any kind of quality decrease with Oculus Link in general with good settings. You don't really need the official $79 cable as you can even start with the included short cable (since they have since added usb2 support) or get a $9 one from amazon if you don't have a large play area.

    I use also use Virtual Desktop for almost everything as during gaming no cable is far better than random compression artifacts. However you do need a decent local network setup to it work perfectly.

    Quest is far better choice from a developer perspective as you can develop and test on both platforms and do standalone demos anywhere. I also have a CV1 and going from its 90hz to the Quest 72hz is not an issue for me at all . I have also used Rift S a lot and while I like it's display and comfort and display a bit more I would still pick Quest.
     
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  15. DaDonik

    DaDonik

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    I am on 10. Guess it's time for you to upgrade.
     
  16. Martin_H

    Martin_H

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    FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS!!! No chance right now, but eventually I might be forced to upgrade :-/.
     
  17. Ryiah

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    Just a quick heads-up, there is a second generation Quest rumored to be coming sometime in the next few months.

    https://uploadvr.com/oculus-quest-2-everything-we-know/
     
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  18. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    I heard that one.

    Thought the last time I decided to wait to purchase something, stock ran out, then mail started having problems, then pandemic started. (/joke)

    I upgraded to 10, definitely not happy with the purchase. It works though. And some problems with 7 I used to have got fixed.
     
  19. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Oookay.

    So I bought a hour of Oculus Quest time at that club (wasted more money than I'd like on taxi fare though). Games played:
    Elexir, Alyx, Pistol Whip, Gun Club VR.

    Impressions:
    • Overall impression is very positive. I played HTC Vive before at the same club, and the Vive was nowhere close to Oculus Quest. I did not feel any "screen effectr", and it mostly felt very convincing.Image resolution is good enough for me.
    • The finger tracking gimmick turned out to be incredibly amazing. Elixir game replaces your hand model, and moving your fingers and seeing the hand move in the exact same way convinces the brain that the hand you're seeing is YOURS. It becomes very interesting when the game replaces your hand with robot hand (that has only three fingers) and tentacle hands, as you sorta start feeling it. Like tentacles dangling from your fingers. Never experienced anything like that anywhere else. I think VR developers should look into adding the rest of the body, as it greatly increases immersion. I also think someone should add ankle/waist trackers.

      The funny thing is that after seeing full finger tracking in action, half life: alyx hands feel "wrong" and unconvincing.
    • I'm did not feel any input lag due to streaming. The elixir game ran on oculus, but alyx was streamed through VR desktop, and I didn't notice any problems there. I talked to the club employee/owner (it is a small shop ran by one or two people), and she told me that they were worried about input lag too, but then tested the headset in person and were convinced that it is not an issue (they had to visit another town to get hands on Oculus Quest, she said). They also sold their Vive and the "Hamster Pad" they used to have and only have Quest now. That says something.
    • The strap turned out to be more comfortable than I expected. Putting on Vive was much more hassle the last time comapred to Quest.
    • I experienced some heavy lens fogging in the beginning, because I was wearing the headset on top of covid mask. The issue solved itself in about 10 minutes, when I guess temperatures equalized.
    • The audio isn't that great, in sense that noisy environment can drown out sound from headphones at maximum volume. The shop was placed next to a children play area in a sport complex, meaning I couldn't hear much of what the game was trying to tell me.
    • I sorta understand why in some cases people might want high resolution textures. Alyx had a dinner box lying around, my first instinctive action was to grab it and read ingredients. So, basically, if there's text, my mind sorta expects it to be fully readable when I can grab the book.
    • Also, in case of Alyx there were some disappointing moments regarding environment interactivity. For example, in the beginning you can see people on the street from the balcony you're on. But. There's bunch of stuff next to you you can grab.... and if you throw it off the balcony and hit the npcs with it, they do not react. In my case I think I had something like a brick bounce off NPC head. Disappointing. Likewise scripted story sequence where you're captured felt off, because it looks like the scene is interactive, but it isn't. For example, first impulse is to close lift doors when you see the soldiers, but pressing buttons does nothing (looks hilarious, probably). Trying to walk forward doesn't work, and you can't grab soldiers gun, even though it feels like you should be able to.
    • Apparently being in environment where player is moving makes me start losing balance. That's the situation in case of Pistol Whip. The moment level starts, I feel like I'm falling backward and the feeling doesn't fully disappear.
    • Apparently I really need IPD slider.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2020
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  20. Martin_H

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    Thanks for the review, the Quest sounds promising.


    I doubt many other devs have put as much work and care into things like that as valve has, so I'd assume many VR games will be disappointing to you in that regard. Even high profile ones like Fallout 4 or Skyrim VR.


    In how far is the physical IPD adjustment different from software IPD adjustment?
     
  21. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Valve is not exactly known for branching storylines and multiple choice games.

    I saw a great deal of attention to visuals there, but there are oversights, like bike not acting properly, or some sequences being heavily railroaded.

    The problem with capture sequence is that it is railroaded.

    Cannot comment on that, as I never used a device with software adjustment. However, I do not think it is even possible a software equivalent of physically moving a lens.

    Also, apparently my ipd is 70. So, I guess no Rift S for me (recommended range is 61.5..65.5).
     
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  22. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Your review leaves me with the impression that I was smart purchasing the original Rift instead of the Vive. I intend to eventually purchase the Quest but I'm waiting for the second generation model due needing other hardware first.

    One of the features of the rumored Quest 2 is an IPD slider though every indication is that it's not a fine-grained one.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2020
  23. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Quest has onboard IPD slider, but Rift S doesn't.
    For me things started to look right at the maximum slider value - 70 mm.

    I also can't comment on the original Rift, because I only had access to DK2 for something like 30 minutes. That one didn't feel too great and resembled Google Cardboard VR, except with significantly better tracking.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2020
  24. Ryiah

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    Original Rift had reasonable quality for a first generation consumer-oriented VR HMD. Only real downsides were the cable which you had to always be somewhat aware of and the annoyances with the sensor towers that had to be placed in the exact the position that it wanted even if it wasn't practical to do so.

    Some people don't like the "screendoor" effect of the display but I found I was able to ignore it 99.9% of the time if I were actively engaged with the content. I had zero latency problems and fortunately for me zero problems with motion sickness which allows me to use smooth movement all the time.

    https://www.amazon.com/Oculus-Touch-Virtual-Reality-System-pc/dp/B073X8N1YW/
     
  25. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Vive that I tried back then was decent, but it really felt like looking at the world through bee protection mask.
    I'm apparently sensitive enough to VR motion sickness, as there was that low poly blocky game that made me nauseous in minutes. I think it was "Compound". And like I said, movement in Pistol Whip mad me feel I'm about to fall backward. Those might be related.

    There were articles saying that adding a virtual nose reduces Motion Sickness, though. Not sure how effective that is.
     
  26. Martin_H

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    Afaik the Go has a better screen and on that it bothers me significantly. If that headset had a way to just adjust the lenses to be permanently out of focus, I'd probably prefer an overall blurry image over the screendoor. I find it very immersion breaking.


    I'm normally not super sensitive to motion sickness from 2D screens as long as I play myself. In VR there are many things that are unbearable to watch for me. Basically everything that moves your cameraposition for you. Doesn't take minutes either, it's basically instant that I feel nauseous from that kind of movement. But I noticed that over time, even though I was avoiding content with that kind of movement, I got slightly less sensitive to it. So if you're willing to knuckle through it for a while, I would think it may be possible to get over that sensitivity. I think Anders said in the past that you can get used to it over time, and I didn't believe that would be the case for me before I felt first improvements myself.
     
  27. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Some article said between 40% and 70% of people experience motion sickness in VR, so there's definitely something off about the way it is handled. On traditional 2d screen there were maybe 3 titles total that ever made me feel nauseous. They were Minecraft, early build of Space Engineers, and .... Ecco the Dolphin 2 (Not sure why). There's probably few more I can't remember right off the bat.

    I wonder if brain adaptation to VR will affect normal vestibular system behavior in any way, by the way.
     
  28. Martin_H

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    What do you mean by that?


    It's possible. Decoupling eye focus and vergence probably also has some kind of effect.
     
  29. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    I mean, if the tech has 40..70% of people getting nausea, some piece of the necessary tech is missing.
     
  30. Martin_H

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    People get nausea from the conflicting information of the visuals and the vestibular system that doesn't feel the appropriate accelerational or gravitational forces. Afaik the tech to "trick" that part of your body simply doesn't exit yet. Also I think the focus distance of your eyes is a part of depth perception and it confuses the brain to decouple it from the depth position of objects that you're looking at. Tech for that is being worked on. Iirc they're called "Varifocal displays".
     
  31. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    I meant there could be a way to sufficiently fool the vestibular/visual system into behaving.

    Like that nose thing from the article I saw.

    This tech could, of course, be currently unknown.
     
  32. MDADigital

    MDADigital

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    We develop VR games using Oculus Rift, HTC Vive, Quest and Valve Index, Index blows them out of the water. I cant recommend it enough. Though it has its draw backs like mediocre black levels.

    StarVR seems to have solved the problem with their OLED panel it has full sub pixel resuktion (no screen door effect) plus all other benefits of OLED like good black levels. I Hope we will see consumer headsets with same panels soon.
     
  33. Martin_H

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    No screendoor effect would be amazing. I think I'll wait for that to hit the market before I'll buy another vr device.
     
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  34. MDADigital

    MDADigital

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    The index does not have any either because of LCD with full sub pixel resulution. But it suffers from mediocre blacks. :D
     
  35. Martin_H

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    Had too google some photos because I couldn't believe it, and I can totally see vertical line patterns that make it obvious that it's a screen, even through youtube compression. Sure, it's better than the ones I saw it compared to, but for VR to start being immersive to me, I need to stop seeing the surface of the screen, or it'll always feel like I'm just staring at a screen that's way too close. I'm used to sitting in front of TFT screens at a range and pixeldensity where I don't see the individual pixels unless I lean in. I wouldn't want to see those screendoor patterns on a monitor either.
     
  36. MDADigital

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    Through the lense you see none if you dont have 2.0 vision. I have 1.0 vision with glasses and I dont see any. Resultion and screen door effect is not the same thing. You can see invidual pixels and jagginess. Its not as big dealbraker as screen door effect. Screendoor effect is a fill ratio ( the amount of black between pixels) and sub pixel resultion problem.

    We need foveated rendering before we can higher the resolution more.
     
  37. Martin_H

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    I know the difference and if you need glasses I clearly have better vision than you.

    I agree, although it's still a pretty big deal to have the fidelity of everything reduced to such a jarring degree as VR displays do. Just calculate the difference in pixels per view arc between a vr display and any regular 1080p monitor...

    Here's a video that compares the index to other headsets and in the photos I can see the screendoor effect patterns clearly, even through the S***ty youtube compression, so I can guarantuee you I can see those lines on the real thing too. They are no doubt a lot better than on the others, but it's not what I'm looking for to start finding VR immersive.

     
  38. MDADigital

    MDADigital

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    My wife sees 1.5 with glasses Its probably alot better than you can see, most people see around 1.0, 1.5 is really good. 2.0 is god like. SO no, its not so sure you have better vision than me
     
  39. Martin_H

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    I can't relate the scale you use to any scale I know. When I had my eyes measured many years ago it was like 120% of what is considered perfect eyesight.

    If you're hellbent on a contest, here's a snellen chart for you. Make sure not to look at the bottom rows before doing the test!
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/9/9f/20080623035856!Snellen_chart.svg
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snellen_chart

    Scale it down a bit on screen, measure the height of the "E" with a ruler, multiply the value by 68.76 and measure that distance away from the screen. 44mm height of the E on screen is about 3m distance, which is what I had to use because my room isn't bigger. I can read up to and including line 10, which is better than 20/20. Line 11 I can't read anymore. Maybe I could if it was printed, the anti-aliasing fvcks with it a lot, it's hard to read even sitting right at the screen.

    I know exactly 1 person who can read text at a larger distance than me. Let me know if I need to add you and your wife to that list.

    P.S.: do the test without glasses first, then with glasses. Though I don't know if it can be considered a fair contest with glasses because I don't know enough about how they affect the relevant parameters.
     
  40. MDADigital

    MDADigital

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    I'm not interested in a contest, my point was glasses doesn't mean you have worse eye sight with correction. Which you indicate.

    Anyway index is the best you can get when it comes to pixel density today, it blows all others out of the water.

    Though I haven't tested the more obscure brands like Primax

    Edit: I use the snellen scale btw
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2020
  41. Martin_H

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    I actually meant without correction... obviously.

    I never doubted that...
     
  42. MDADigital

    MDADigital

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    Without correction is complelty irrelevant, both my wife and I are totally blind without correction :)

    But we wear glasses inside the index offcourse :D
     
  43. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Ah, yeah. I'm nearsighted.So I have wider margin of acceptable pixel density.
     
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  44. MDADigital

    MDADigital

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    Not if you have proper correction, then you can see 1.0 or better. Though not all can get up to 1.0 even with correction. Others have multiple visual impairments like near sighted combined with astigmatism which might give you less ideal sight
     
  45. Ryiah

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    Just saw an announcement for a new headset from HP. The HP Reverb G2 has a resolution of 2160 by 2160 per eye (Quest is 1440 by 1600, Rift S is 1280 by 1440) at a refresh rate of 90 Hz (Quest is 72, Rift S is 80). Cost is to be $599.

    https://www8.hp.com/us/en/vr/reverb-g2-vr-headset.html

     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
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  46. MDADigital

    MDADigital

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    Inside out tracking needs to get better, and the controllers need their own inside out tracking and not rely on the headset tracking. Tossing grenades etc doesn't feel as good on these devices today because of the lack of tracking when hands are outside of headset vision.

    Edit: inside out tracking is the future though. We need to get rid of base stations.
     
  47. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    I ordered a quest, by the way. Should arrive somewhere at the end of this month or during early september in the worst case scenario.
     
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  48. elbows

    elbows

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    It was announced in late May. I've got one on pre-order. I'll be sure to comment on what its like when the time comes. Which could be as soon as a little over a months time.
     
  49. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Received my Oculus Quest today.

    I think I see a bit of pixels now, but overall it is good. Feeling sleepy after waiting for the delivery guy.

    Can't believe they could transfer parcel from USA to EU in just 3 days (fast), and then spend 3 more days to get it from my country's customs to my city.

    Makes me remember all the 3 week delivery amazon books I used to buy from USA.

    ---------


    Oh, right. One important thing. Oculus Quest comes with USB C type cable, and turns out I don't have a single USB slot of this type on my PC.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2020
  50. Ryiah

    Ryiah

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    Posts:
    16,224
    You can use an adapter as long as the port is USB 3.0 (5 Gbps).
     
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