Search Unity

  1. Calling all beginners! Join the FPS Beginners Mods Challenge until December 13.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. It's Cyber Week at the Asset Store!
    Dismiss Notice

Nvidia RTX

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by CDF, Aug 15, 2018.

  1. Ryiah

    Ryiah

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    Posts:
    14,899
    Earliest one available to my knowledge will be Battlefield 5 which is due out in November.
     
  2. LennartJohansen

    LennartJohansen

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Posts:
    2,327
    My shipment date was moved another week. 27th now.
     
  3. LennartJohansen

    LennartJohansen

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Posts:
    2,327
    There is still a few components missing. Windows will not support this before the October update. That is when they add DXR support to directX. For now it is only available for insider preview builds.
     
  4. konsic

    konsic

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2015
    Posts:
    879
    Once they fall to regular customer price.
     
  5. Player7

    Player7

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2015
    Posts:
    1,450
    I like a 4x speed boost to gpu upgrades, so guess I'll wait for the 4080 sometime in the 2020's right :D
     
    Zarconis likes this.
  6. ShilohGames

    ShilohGames

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2014
    Posts:
    2,565
    I ordered RTX 2080 ti cards at launch, but recently received an emailed saying they would be delayed a bit more. I'm guessing another week or so.
     
  7. Kusras

    Kusras

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2015
    Posts:
    131
    I wish it will be available for us in unity soon. As we cannot use baking, and spending a lot of performance to get at least some reflections or some realtime shadows... it could not hurt the performance much more and the results would be surely worth it! I wanted to go into voxel based lighting but this seems to be a much better option.
     
  8. LennartJohansen

    LennartJohansen

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Posts:
    2,327
    There has been some comits for real time raytracing support on the HD render pipeline. My guess is that Unity will talk about this at Unite next month
     
    OCASM likes this.
  9. Kusras

    Kusras

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2015
    Posts:
    131
    I do not hurry :) we have enough work and also, we still could not upgrade to 2018, because of broken shaders... so I would like to work, to have RTX ready for nvidia 3000 series :D
     
  10. moxi299

    moxi299

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2015
    Posts:
    37
  11. OCASM

    OCASM

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2011
    Posts:
    267
  12. kblood

    kblood

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2012
    Posts:
    76
  13. Arowx

    Arowx

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Posts:
    7,164
    Is the Nvidia RTX stack just a Hybrid step towards full path traced rendering?

    In effect Nvidia is combining Ambient Occlusion, Shadow and Reflection casting into dedicated hardware. It still uses rasterisation and traditional 3d processing.

    However, as GPU compute power grows we are getting closer to a tipping point where full path tracing is more efficient and manageable at higher resolutions than rasterisation.

    Already forward and deferred rendering are hitting bandwidth/performance issues when applied to higher resolution displays e.g. 4k+.

    So is path tracing a way to push beyond 4k and provide inherent ambient occlusion, shadow and reflection casting that will only need a change to the rendering APIs and GPU hardware stacks.
     
  14. elbows

    elbows

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2009
    Posts:
    2,409
    I think we are miles away from such a tipping point. Its easy to predict that it will happen one day, but that day could be a very long time away indeed and there are various hurdles that will probably keep us in the hybrid era for a long time to come. I wouldnt like to put a timeframe on this sort of thing at all for so many reasons, including unknowns such as how much further improvements to things like denoising AI will be able to offer in future, but also the various pains and barriers that likely exist on the journey towards full raytracing.

    Lets at least wait and see how the first basic steps at moving a few key things to ray-tracing goes, and hope that not much performance is lost in terms of overall framerate when these things are switched on in supporting games. Because gamers can be funny about things that affect their perception of how well a game is performing, and we have seen in the past how sadly some parts of 'nvidia gameworks' (eg flex) are not fondly regarded by some because of their effects on overall framerate in certain games.

    So yeah, I do not predict that a full raytracing era is close enough that it is worth pondering in a different way to how people have pondered that holy grail for decades already. Its not close, and if it was quite close then nvidia etc would just have skipped over the brief hybrid era.

    The one area where I diverge from the above sentiment is that I think we will actually see some very interesting experiments in this era now that the hardware and suitable graphics API is available. There is not enough power in this generation to do full raytracing of full on, realistic looking scenes of the quality people expect, nowhere close. But that wont stop graphics programmers from experimenting with their own stuff and seeing just how far they can push things, in a much more limited context. I find it entirely plausible to imagine someone coming out with a 'fully raytraced game' in this era, but with a massive caveat about what the game actually consists of - if certain key aspects of the graphics and game scenes are kept exceedingly simple and all sorts of corners are cut, maybe it can be done. But it wont resemble stuff that looks like the real world, it will be a heavily stylized and primitive world, where clever use of the huge limitations is made central to the style.
     
  15. elbows

    elbows

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2009
    Posts:
    2,409
    I think that sentence rather skips over the amount of work that graphics programmers still have to do to implement these things in their game engines etc, they have to build the actual features you mention on top of the graphics APIs.

    As for pushing beyond 4k, lets get 4k working performantly to everyones satisfaction first eh. And this is where we see the likes of nvidia DLSS attempt to cut corners in order to deliver 4k at good framerates with less raw GPU power required. And again its too early to say whether DLSS will be a success, and it comes with its own overheads and quality loss issues.

    I dont think raytracing itself will magically overcome the barriers you are on about, quite the opposite in many ways. What it does offer is to make certain techniques that yield lush results, potentially practical for the first time. And it is entirely possible that graphics programmers will find other ways to utilise the raytracing acceleration to deliver other effects or features in the years ahead.
     
  16. ShilohGames

    ShilohGames

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2014
    Posts:
    2,565
    I absolutely agree. RTX is hybrid ray tracing, and full ray tracing is not going to happen in the near future.
     
  17. konsic

    konsic

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2015
    Posts:
    879
  18. ShilohGames

    ShilohGames

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2014
    Posts:
    2,565
    Cool. Unity should implement Microsoft DXR support so they can get in on fun things like that.
     
  19. hippocoder

    hippocoder

    Digital Ape Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2010
    Posts:
    25,924
    HDRP has a branch for it on github.

    But you can approximate these visuals without DXR at present pretty much the same at higher performance. DXR is unlikely to increase the performance of any game right now vs other approximations.
     
    SunnySunshine and Ryiah like this.
  20. Ryiah

    Ryiah

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    Posts:
    14,899
    This. Benchmarks show that there is a 20 point decrease in FPS with DXR on the lowest setting available in BF5 using the 2080 Ti, but that with the lower tier cards the performance is basically cut in half. What would have been 60 FPS is now only 30 FPS. This is only reflections. They haven't even turned on the shadows or lighting.

    Unless someone bought the 2080 Ti it's basically a no-brainer that they will switch off DXR. After all if they were happy playing with only 30 FPS they would be on a console and not a thousand plus gaming computer.

    https://www.ign.com/articles/2018/11/19/nvidia-rtx-ray-tracing-benchmarks-in-battlefield-5
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2018
  21. jashan

    jashan

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2007
    Posts:
    3,105
    But the human eye can only see 30 FPS. Right? RIGHT!?!?!?

    <ducksAndRuns>
     
    Ryiah likes this.
  22. moxi299

    moxi299

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2015
    Posts:
    37
    Not 100% right... the human eye recognizes differences up to 1000 fps. But due to a brain interpolation feature you stop notice the frames switching, if the fps is over 24.

    However that may be, I would take raytracing instead of FPS. :D
     
    jashan likes this.
  23. jashan

    jashan

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2007
    Posts:
    3,105
    Sorry if that wasn't obvious - but I was memeing ;-) It's that console vs. pcmasterrace thing, where the console-peasants always say 30 FPS is enough but the enlightened master-racers know that no FPS is ever enough, you can always have more fun with more FPS.

    As a VR-person, anything below 90 FPS is bad, and we need to render in stereo ... but at least not in 4K, yet ;-)
     
  24. Antypodish

    Antypodish

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2014
    Posts:
    6,416
    I watched somewhere, that too many frames incorrectly executed, in terms of graphics, can make person dizzy.
    But don't remember where I had link from, forum, or just found.
     
  25. QFSW

    QFSW

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2015
    Posts:
    2,481
    I believe if the FPS is too high without motion blur then it can look dizzying (if the movement was fast enough that you'd get motion blur in real life)
     
    Antypodish likes this.
  26. Antypodish

    Antypodish

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2014
    Posts:
    6,416
    Yep, that was exactly highlighted.
     
  27. kblood

    kblood

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2012
    Posts:
    76
    But its not just approximations though, that is why its relevant to experiment with, and while it might not be common for players to use it, although I must say I have for years and years played games at 30 fps or lower to get better visuals. Even now with my 2080Ti I still push it below 60 fps just to get a bit better visuals, unless actually causes lag. Even when its VR I am fine with it running 45 fps.

    So what approximation alternatives do you mean? If they do not actually ray-trace, I have to say I do not really see much reason to use it, as its what to focus on in this regard. Might be 2 years away, but getting to know the workflows and how to optimize this takes time, so working with it now rather than when its already being used more overall... seems too late. But yes it is sad to see how its only used for reflections. On the other hand though, shadows are already rather well approximated, so reflections is what you gain the most from as I see it. There is a Quake 2 demo showing path tracing being done rather impressively, but it sure could use a denoiser, and then I have to wonder what happens if you use both the denoiser and real time path tracing done with RTX / DXR?

    I will try taking a look at this HDRP, but, it sure is difficult to find anything about how to actually make use of RTX and begin to experiment with it. The denoiser also sure seems interesting, but I would argue that at the moment, it might be something that would be more interesting to use with old games. Like Quake 2 shows... imagine remakes giving some of the old games DXR features? That would be rather impressive I think.

    Without being able to try out what the possibilities are though, well its not easy to find out what could be done with it. Seems like having the GPU right now and wanting to experiment with it is not enough... well maybe unless you used Unreal Engine 4, but I just dont like that engine. The way its workflows goes, how you work with it overall... its just not for me. Even though I am impressed with what can be done with it, I just keep being so annoyed by so many small things in it. Also how any change seems to cause the whole engine freezing while redoing shaders and stuff like that.
     
    OCASM likes this.
  28. kblood

    kblood

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2012
    Posts:
    76
    Oh its the new Render Pipeline. Ahh, had not considered it might actually do this... that sure is interesting. I will have to experiment with this tomorrow :)
     
  29. hippocoder

    hippocoder

    Digital Ape Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2010
    Posts:
    25,924
    Yeah it's just right now the main heavy use these cards get are with applications like substance for example, which have code paths for this - it accelerates things in a big way. But that's accelerating something that took 10 mins down to 1 minute. I am hoping Unity finds a away to implement something that will generally improve all kinds of baking as well.

    GPU designers will release new revisions every so often, and they'll make sure its a little faster each time, justifying the upgrade cost best they can.

    I think it will take a little longer before the tech is strong enough to be overall an improvement for action games (60fps, full res) but it's not for me to say yes or no - Unity are on the case regardless :)

    It could be used in an amazing way right now for many games where 60fps or bust isn't important.
     
  30. konsic

    konsic

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2015
    Posts:
    879
     
    OCASM and jashan like this.
  31. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

    Joined:
    May 20, 2010
    Posts:
    6,127
    I don't really care about using this in a game. Maybe in 4-5 years if the tech is still around.

    I would like for the GPU lightmapper to use it for offline baking though, since that is something I can potentially use now, regardless of adoption, and it could provide a big speed boost.
     
    konsic likes this.
  32. konsic

    konsic

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2015
    Posts:
    879
    In 4-5 years, lightmapper will be real-time, no bake needed. I predict.
     
    Artaani likes this.
  33. AcidArrow

    AcidArrow

    Joined:
    May 20, 2010
    Posts:
    6,127
    Meh, I don't like that. It will still be slower and look worse, so I think baking will stick around for quite a while longer.
     
    Ippokratis likes this.
  34. Ryiah

    Ryiah

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    Posts:
    14,899
    OCASM likes this.
  35. CDF

    CDF

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2013
    Posts:
    783
    Antypodish, Ryiah and jashan like this.
  36. Ryiah

    Ryiah

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    Posts:
    14,899
  37. AlanMattano

    AlanMattano

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2013
    Posts:
    1,096
    But at the moment we get this kind of reflection.

    RTXvsOld.jpg

    I'm wondering why cars are not reflected at all.

    Is it possible to just use the denoiser without RTX?