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[Next-Gen Soft-Shadows 2] Sophisticated dynamic penumbra Shadows for Unity

Discussion in 'Assets and Asset Store' started by tatoforever, Nov 8, 2016.

?

Would you like to buy this on the Asset Store? If so, how much?

Poll closed Jul 10, 2017.
  1. I like it to be priced between 20 to 10$.

    56.8%
  2. I like it to be priced between 10 to 5$.

    39.0%
  3. Zero $, I'm not interested, I love my Unity's default aliased, pixelated horrid-shadows.

    4.2%
  1. tatoforever

    tatoforever

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    Folks,
    I will resubmit v1.9.5 later tonight with some extra optimizations I made (for all shadows) and would like some of you performs couple of tests on your machine with the new package before I submit tonight, that would be super appreciated. Test should be performed only with the NGSS package.

    For example, a Shadows Strength value of 1 now gives you around ~14 visible point lights (@200fps) with PCSS shadows, if you lower the softness to 0.5 it will allow you to double (or almost triple) your amount of point lights in your scene without any performance impact. By default the softness super high, so people will tend to lower that value a lot more.
    Note: The driver does already an optimization with the cache if you lower your shadows softness but this optimization goes on top of that.
    In version 2.0 I got more improvements (visuals and performance) for the Standard Pipeline shadows, including a super fast bilateral filter for directional shadows that kicks arses, video and images soon. :)

    PS: Please hit me through support email to get the latest v1.9.5 to test before submission.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2018
  2. tatoforever

    tatoforever

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    Folks already testing the new version being amazed with the quality and performance improvements. :)
    PS: I still have one more tiny improvement coming in ver 1.9.7 before fully moving to v2 which also constains new improvements for Default Pipeline shadows. :)
     
  3. alternativevisual

    alternativevisual

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    What's the cost for NGSS v2? I can't wait for them!!:mad::mad:
     
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  4. tatoforever

    tatoforever

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    @alternativevisual
    It will cost 30$ for new users and 15$ for existing users. It will provide new shadowing techniques and improvements for all pipelines including Default pipeline. :)
     
  5. TimeTours

    TimeTours

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    I want to use this for mobile and on my test device (MediaPad M3 Lite) the framerate dropped from 35 (Unity shadows) to 2-3 (NGSS). Is that the kind of performance drop I need to expect? One light with some 500k tris.

    Do I understand the post on top of this page correctly that the "Strength" slider is now actually the quality slider? So I need to reduce strength to improve performance - which I can't control in the quality settings, right?

    Replacing the original library isn't such a great solution, is it? Will that change in 2.0?
     
  6. alternativevisual

    alternativevisual

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    Is you shadows type set to Soft? Then it will work in PCSS mode, and for mobile it's horribly slow.. Try to change it to Hard, and in .cginc library change samples count for mobile. upload_2018-10-29_16-11-48.png

    Yes, with SRP it's not a problem.
     
  7. TimeTours

    TimeTours

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    Thank you, I tried hard shadows, that brought up from 1fps to 2-3fps ;)

    But I didn't fiddle with those values. Not that big of a problem, but would be nice if this could be set in the quality settings for different devices. Would gladly pay more for the extension if properly integrated.
     
  8. alternativevisual

    alternativevisual

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    I already can't imagine my game without you're shadows.. so fast and amazing)
    Especially PCSS and Contact Shadows!
     
    tatoforever likes this.
  9. tatoforever

    tatoforever

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    @TimeTours
    Unity local shadows are not really soft shadows, they are just 4taps really next to each other which guarantee to never miss cache. So yeah, by default local shadows will always be faster than NGSS shadows cause they are mostly hard shadows than anything else. However, a better comparison is Unity directional shadows vs NGSS directional shadows which both does similar amount of sampling while NGSS looks and perform better in most situations.
    Couple of things to know when using NGSS on mobile:
    - For mobile is recommended to use powerful devices
    - You must be sure you are not already GPU bound, which makes me thing you already are when your fps drops considerably, unless you are using desktop quality settings on mobile which is a lot worse
    - For local shadows, lower the values of samplers as suggested by the comment next to the #define on UnityShadowLibrary and import the file again (delete your ShaderCache folder). Then disable PCSS by setting your light to Hard-Shadow. For directional shadows disable PCSS in the NGSS_Component itself. If you hover over the samplers value you will notice self description of every property.
    You are right, these tweaks should be automatically done for the end user and im making sure it will for the next version.
    In version 2.0, I will bring optimizations to a whole new level for standard pipeline (please refer to the video below).

    @alternativevisual
    Amazing scenery composition. I think you can improve performance if you lower the amount of grass, If I'm not mistaken. Other than that it looks awesome-sauce! :)
    On my side, I can't imagine any game without a good shadow system. Prior to PBR we would get away with simple shadows. But today when the lighting model and quality is very realistic (aka physically based), shadows must follow or it will jump right in the face and people will notice. The reason why I implemented a sort of PCSS which behaves more physically correct.
    In last update I made my PCSS super fast and for NGSS 2.0 I will make shadows even prettier using less samplers, black magic demonstration:

    PS: Hit me when the game is ready to test, I might provide some insights on how to speed things up while retaining visual fidelity! ;)

    [EDIT] NGSS 1.9.5 is out! :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2018
  10. iamfist

    iamfist

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    @tatoforever
    I have upgraded right away. sadly the problem with still persists. Did you try your shadows with Unity 2018 on iPhone?
     
  11. tatoforever

    tatoforever

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    @iamfist
    So, it works fine in Editor and with some devices but other devices the shadows projection looks wrong?
    I got one iPadAir2 and iPhone6Splus and both works fine. What are the devices you are testing and what is the settings for those shadows?
    If you don't mind moving this discussion to support (support AT psychozinteractive DOT com), cause we going to exchange a handfull couple of messages. :D
    See you there!
     
  12. jeromeWork

    jeromeWork

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    Reading up on the feature and changes for 1.9.5 on the asset store; "Complete rewriting of all shadows algorithms" Does that mean that you need to delete the NGSS folder and replace the shadows library file in the Editor folder too?
    - do projects that use the old version need to be updated too before a rebuild because the Editor library file has changed?
     
  13. tatoforever

    tatoforever

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    @jeromeWork
    If what you need is just new Directional Shadows or ContactShadows, import the v1.9.5 package and enjoy. For local shadows, the install steps remains the same if you are using v1.8 and up:
    1- Import the new package to your project and place the provided UnityShadowLibrary on "Unity installed path/Data/CGIncludes" folder
    2- Close Unity and delete your project/Library/ShaderCache folder before opening your project again
    If you are using an older version than v1.8 and you want to upgrade to the latest version:
    - You need to remove the NGSS folder from your project and reinstall Unity (to make sure there's no trace of any old NGSS file on Unity) prior to step 1 above.
    Let me know if it's clear.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2018
  14. ceebeee

    ceebeee

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    this alone is reason enough to me to love 1.9.5



    Awesome work!
     
  15. tatoforever

    tatoforever

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    @ceebeee
    The effect is possible thanks to that awesomesauce blackmagic sorcery thingy which I named Cascade Stitching! :cool:
     
  16. tatoforever

    tatoforever

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    In v1.9.6 you will be able to chose even crazier shadowmap resolutions.
    Disclaimer: only for the GPU melting enthusiasts. :cool:
    ultra_mega_shadows.png
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2018
    Lex4art, AthrunVLokiz and ceebeee like this.
  17. ceebeee

    ceebeee

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    Mega is the good term for that. It's the same resolution as ID software's megatexture textures in Tech5 Engine :p
     
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  18. jeromeWork

    jeromeWork

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    Thanks @tatoforever Pretty sure I understand. Do you see what I mean about it being potentially problematic?... because UnityShadowLibrary lives in install/Data/CGIncludes - updating means that any project using that Editor version also needs to be updated.
    Not a deal breaker but worth being aware of it :)
     
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  19. tatoforever

    tatoforever

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    @jeromeWork,
    Since version 1.8, you don't need to update all of your projects. You can have NGSS UnityShadowLibrary without the rest and it will work fine. All shadows in NGSS are independent from each other so having one doesn't require having the others. Plus, with local shadows (UnityShadowLibrary) you won't notice the change until you force Unity re-compile builtin rendering libraries (by deleting the project's ShaderCache folder). :)

    [EDIT]
    To be more clear: If you re-install Unity, your NGSS local shadows will get wiped by the install, while your NGSS Contact and Directional Shadows will still working fine in your project. The other way is also valid, if you wipe NGSS from your project, your NGSS local shadows will still working fine while your directional shadows will revert back to default Unity shadows.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2018
    jeromeWork likes this.
  20. jeromeWork

    jeromeWork

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    Ok :) Thanks for the clarification
     
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  21. tatoforever

    tatoforever

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    Just realized that a tiny bug slipped into v1.9.5. PCSS is enforced permanently for Directional shadows! Opsie! :D
    Fortunately PCSS filtering is now super fast but I got it fixed for v1.9.6 which will be submitted soon. :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
  22. Justin_Wingfall

    Justin_Wingfall

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    1.9.5 support hdrp?
     
  23. tatoforever

    tatoforever

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    @RadioFolk
    NGSS support for HD/LW render pipelines is coming in v2.
     
  24. tatoforever

    tatoforever

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    Upcoming Shadows Denoiser in v2.0:


    denoiser1.png

    denoiser2.png

    Extreme fast, zero overhead, GPU cache friendly (samplers are tight, next to each others).
    Let me know what you think! :)
    PS: Lowest iteration shown in the video and still look pretty. ;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2018
  25. jcarpay

    jcarpay

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    I think this is mindblowing!
     
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  26. tatoforever

    tatoforever

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    Just submitted v1.9.5.2 for review.
    Features and changes:
    - Fixed a small issue with Directional Shadows where resolution was set to a higher value
    - Fixed a small issue with Directional Shadows where PCSS was constantly forced. You can use again PCF by disabling PCSS_ENABLED on NGSS_Directional component

    On top of the new upcoming shadows and optimizations in NGSS 2.0, I added a new directional shadows for low end hardware (mobile, webgl, etc) on the standard pipeline. This ones does not do any screen space thingy and works when Cascaded Shadows are disabled. It's around ~3 times faster than current NGSS shadows.
    Also, It's optional, if you think your device is capable of running NGSS Cascaded shadows then go ahead no one stop you. :)
    So yeah, mobile super soft-shadows will be back. :cool:
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2018
    jcarpay and alternativevisual like this.
  27. sacb0y

    sacb0y

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    Why do contact shadows render different in the view port than the camera? Can I make it look softer like the viewport?

    viewport

    camera


    EDIT: No wait I see, it's tied to camera resolution.... how do I resolve this?
     
  28. tatoforever

    tatoforever

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    @sacb0y
    I made the noise match the screen resolution by design because if the shadowmaps resolution change the noise will also change (imagine the far cascades being more or less noisy) which can introduce more inconsistencies. On the other side matching the screen resolution also changes the noise when the end user changes resolution but it does for the whole shadows.
    I'm however improving this for the next version and will make the noise a lot more predictable and stable.
     
  29. sacb0y

    sacb0y

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    Ok i'll look forward to those updates then.

    I just wish there was some way i could maintain the softer shading and shadows as i vastly prefer that for my games visuals.
     
    tatoforever likes this.
  30. alternativevisual

    alternativevisual

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    Hey! Are you targeting to make something like this?
    My project is crying without this lighting :(

    Maybe you could do it much better, and with some realtime reflections.. all with high performance delivering...
    It would be a fairy tale)
     
    Lex4art likes this.
  31. tatoforever

    tatoforever

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    @alternativevisual
    Yes,
    Already prototyping with OptiX raytracer. ;)
    Wait for my NGAO / NGGI (Next-Gen Ambient Occlusion and Next-Gen Global Illumination) products fully Raytraced into the Unity Gbuffer (hybrid).
    Coming sometime in 2019! :cool:
    PS: Also NGRR (Next-Gen Raytraced Reflections).
     
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  32. alternativevisual

    alternativevisual

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    They all will be separate assets?(
    Will it work with default rendering pipeline? Cause i can't work with HDRP( It's too heavy and slow (Unity on my laptop just crashes haha).. + i don't know how to write/update shaders to SRP... can't find any documentation or tutorials.
    Soo..:(

    And btw, what features of NGSS v2 will not work in default pipeline?
     
  33. tatoforever

    tatoforever

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    @alternativevisual
    Will depends on Unity DXR integration, if they integrate it on the Standard Pipeline then yes. From what I see, it looks like only HDRP is getting DXR support right now. Hopefully they add to Standard Pipeline as both HD and LW are very far from being finished. Specially the HD one.
    However, you need at least a DX12 capable GPU and furthermore RTX capable GPUs (for more hardware support of raytracing).
    [EDIT] NGSS 2 on default pipeline will bring new optimizations and shadowmapping techniques. On top of that a denoiser filtering (the one showcased couple of messages above). Things that will probably won't see the daylight in default pipeline are Raytraced related features and primitive shadows (aka raymarched shadows). Any other new technique that goes beyond standard shadowmapping for the particular reason that I don't have access to the renderer sources (not the case with HDRP/LWRP though).
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
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  34. ceebeee

    ceebeee

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    You can already do this with Unity's Global Illumination, I've seen many people do examples of it. I'll try to find one.
     
  35. tatoforever

    tatoforever

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    @ceebeee
    I believe he means entirely in real-time without any pre-bake process. But yeah Enlighteen can do this and probably better (with the pre-bake caveat).
     
  36. ceebeee

    ceebeee

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    Well true, does require baking. but usually your static objects and lighting shouldn't be changing in the scope of a scene.

    However if you do need it to be dynamic then probably something like these would do the trick for Standard Pipeline:

    https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/?stay#!/content/67665
    https://assetstore.unity.com/packages/vfx/shaders/fullscreen-camera-effects/colorbleed-85066
    https://assetstore.unity.com/packages/vfx/shaders/aura-volumetric-lighting-111664

    Edit: and how could I forget The Courtyard:
    https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/?stay#!/content/49377
    It's an excellent example of Unity's Realtime GI at work.

    Also Unity recently added this to the documentation:
    https://docs.unity3d.com/Manual/BestPracticeLightingPipelines.html
    It's a very comprehensive guide to how to set up lighting to get the visuals you want.

    I recommend checking it out in conjunction with another thing they added, which shows various combinations of settings in visual form:
    https://docs.unity3d.com/Manual/BestPracticeMakingBelievableVisuals3.html
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2018
  37. TimeTours

    TimeTours

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    So I tried reducing the number of samplers to 16 and of course it increased the framerate.

    My scene was like 35fps with Unity hard shadows, which looked OK for the extreme low end device.

    It went down to 7fps with soft shadows enabled. Not that I don't expect a performance hit, even with 16 samples the shadows look still good.

    So I tried to set the strength of the shadows to 0 and they look like Unity hard shadows again, just with 10fps instead of 35fps. And I can't reduce the opacity, which makes hard shadows look less extreme.

    I am sure NGSS will do fine on high end and even mid tier devices, but as of my knowledge right now, there is no way to get performant hard shadows on low end devices, although Unity itself provides this possibility.
     
  38. TimeTours

    TimeTours

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    I am probably too stupid to use contact shadows (these are supposed to be some sort of AO - right?). I attach the script to the camera and there is no change, pulling all the sliders - nothing!
     
  39. tatoforever

    tatoforever

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    @TimeTours
    Have you profiled your app on device to identify where you bottleneck is? Cause at 35fps it looks like you are already GPU bound. What other effects do you have in your game? Maybe you want to reduce others effects to give some GPU resources to shadows?
    Comparing NGSS Soft-shadows to Unity Hard-shadows on low end devices is kinda unfair tbh. On local shadows, Unity only do 4 taps for soft-shadows. NGSS by default does 16 and then depending on setup 32-64 taps on penumbra (the softness part of shadows).
    A better comparison would be Unity Directional soft-shadows vs NGSS Directional soft-shadows (with a low kernel size) as both does similar amount of sampling per frag.
    NGSS shadows are more optimized than nVIDIA ShadowWorks which is the one I use to compare against.
    In NGSS 2 I'm providing new shadow system for mobile (can also be used for desktop) which does extreme fast separable Gaussian filtering in one pass. Video very soon.
    On top of whats coming in v2 I will also provide a raymarched shadows for mobile called (primitive shadows) you can see couple of videos of that in my youtube page. This thing is fast also takes advantage of ECS, Jobs and Burst.
     
  40. rz_0lento

    rz_0lento

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    @tatoforever I didn't take it like that, I read it more like mention that you can't scale down your shadows as far when NGSS is enabled vs when you run standard Unity systems. Since NGSS replaces the original local shadows, you can't revert to plain hard shadows anymore for point and spotlights. I can totally see how this could be an issue as one doesn't really care about maximum quality/soft shadows at lowest quality settings, there it's more of a question of affording to show any kind of shadows.
     
  41. TimeTours

    TimeTours

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    I am not complaining about the pefromance of NGSS.

    I would just like to use hard shadows on low end device and be able to set the opacity of the shadows.
     
  42. tatoforever

    tatoforever

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    @rizu
    You are not forced to use local shadows with NGSS. You can install the package that you need. Being local, directional or contact shadows. For local shadows you can't have both (hard and soft) cause the file is an internal rendering file and NGSS already uses the Hard-Shadows value on the light to provide PCF filtering. On Directional shadows is possible to force hard shadows yes.

    @TimeTours
    Sorry for the confusion, I must have read too many FPS in your message and concluded too quick is was about performance. :D
    If you want local hard-shadows on mobile don't install the provided UnityShadowLibrary file, use only the NGSS_Directional or NGSS_ContactShadows component.
     
  43. ceebeee

    ceebeee

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    I noticed now with 1.9.5.2 if you run a scene with a directional light, but don't have the Directional component from NGSS on it, the scene turns nearly black. This wasn't the case with versions prior to 1.9.5

    Is this just a result of the new way you can set samplers from the directional component? It's kind of required now I guess. In the past when doing quick tests or prototyping I never added the component. But I know it should be there anyway for finalized stuff.

    Without: https://i.imgur.com/o5nRDRL.png
    With: https://i.imgur.com/UCT4rE9.png
     
  44. tatoforever

    tatoforever

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    That looks like a setup bug to me.
    If there's no NGSS_Directional component, the shadows should revert-back to Unity shadows. I'm going to run couple of tests and fix for v1.9.5.3.
    Thanks for reporting. :)
     
    ceebeee likes this.
  45. vincespeed

    vincespeed

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    Hello Tatoforever! Thank you for this great product, I purchased it a hour ago and it's already doing wonders. I have a question.
    In my game I wrote a custom shader which uses the following instructions, which worked perfectly before:
    Code (CSharp):
    1. struct v2f{
    2. ...
    3. SHADOW_COORDS(5)
    4. ...
    5. }
    6.  
    7. v2f vert (appdata_base v){
    8. ...
    9. TRANSFER_SHADOW(output)
    10. ...
    11.  
    12. }
    13. fixed4 frag v2f(i):COLOR0{
    14. ...
    15. fixed shadow = SHADOW_ATTENUATION(i);
    16. fixed3 lighting = ambientLighting * shadow + i.ambient+specularReflection+i.diff;
    17. }
    18.  
    If I don't comment out the internal Shadow instructions (SHADOW_COORDS,TRANSFER_SHADOW,SHADOW_ATTENUATION) the shader will compile with errors, and it won't work anymore. I can comment those lines out, but this way the object won't receive anymore shadows.
    Is there a workaround to this issue?
     
  46. tatoforever

    tatoforever

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    @vincespeed
    What is the shader compile errors? If the error is something like "instruction/arithmetic/operation etc limit error" make sure you specify #pragma target 3.0 in your custom shader other wise it will default to SM2.0 and will fail to compile with NGSS as SM3 is required. You don't have to with default Unity shaders as Unity already compile multiple variants with different SMs for you but with custom shaders you have to specify it.
    Try that and if you keep having the error email your whole shader to support with your invoice number. I will take a look at. :)
     
  47. vincespeed

    vincespeed

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    Thank you,I will try this setting once back home. I tried to build for iOS, but on iPhone 6S it seems like the whole world has a uniform shadow: the whole scene is completely darkened, without any distinction between light areas and shadow areas. Is this a known bug?
     
  48. tatoforever

    tatoforever

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    @vincespeed
    There's something going on with your custom shader cause shadows works on mobile.
     
  49. vincespeed

    vincespeed

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    I'm afraid that the "whole screen shadow issue" has nothing to do with my custom shader. I have noticed that I can reproduce it in the Editor, if I set "Two Cascades" or "No Cascades" instead of "Four Cascades" in the Quality Settings. So it is like on iPhone Build, the game forces "Two Cascades" or "No Cascades" even if quality clearly is set on Four Cascades...
    EDIT
    I solved the issue: attaching the "NGSS_Directional" script on directional light made it work flawlessly :)
    Concerning the custom shader issue, I will email you my invoice number and my shader code!
    Thank you very much!
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2018
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  50. TimeTours

    TimeTours

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    Thanks, the directional shader fills our need right now, wasn't sure if it would work without replacing the library.

    Adding the NGSS_ContactShadows to the camera does exactly nothing though. Not sure what the result should look like exactly, but if it is some cheap AO kind of effect, I sure would prefer it over the pretty demanding Unity AO.