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Need a few questions answered on creating a worthwhile MMORPG

Discussion in 'Game Design' started by 3LittlePigs, Dec 3, 2015.

  1. 3LittlePigs

    3LittlePigs

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    ***This intro is rather long, so please feel free to skip to: THE POINT***

    First, let me state that I know as much about programming as Trump knows about stylish hair.

    However, I have a ton of gaming experience, from tabletop to hardcore raiding in multiple MMOs.

    Also, it isn't as if I lack any talent to bring to the table. Storyline and lore is just as important (albeit, much easier to handle, in my opinion) in any MMORPG, and I have a large portion of the lore prepared. In fact, turning off that part of my mind is like turning off a Viagra and ecstasy fueled Ron Jeremy. Although I fancy myself a storyteller, I can also produce decent conceptual art, which can be refined for use.

    Really though, I've gotten to the point that MMORPGs just disappoint. I can't be the only one tired of the same games in different packages. We keep recycling the same garbage. Seriously, I've seen fresher convenience store sushi.

    I have a ton of ideas for new mechanics that can work in an MMO setting. Class systems can suck it. I can't stand being forced into a certain play-style, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. The only "balance issues" will be between the weak and the strong players. Sandbox, of course, because that's the way MMO was always meant to be.

    And I get that there are some games out there that aren't quite so rigid, or have no class systems. Still, they don't measure up to what I want to play.

    Also, I want to allow the ability for players to create content, within limitations, of course.

    I'd go into more details, but I'd like to keep the bulk of my ideas to myself, until a later date.

    What I want doesn't even have to look good to be awesome. I mean, look at Oprah (or Minecraft for a more accurate example)

    THE POINT:

    I've come to terms with the fact that I cannot accomplish this alone, and a team of game designers aren't going to miraculously show up at my doorstep, offering free services, either. I need people who generally know what they are doing, even if inexperienced, and I need to pay them.

    Keeping in mind that it will not have nearly the content or the refined graphics that WoW has....
    • What would be the bare minimum team I would need?
    • How much would I need to pay them?
    • How long will the project take to complete (so I can factor in the total amount of wages)
    • Rough costs of equipment would be helpful, too.
    • ANYTHING else I have failed to factor in.

    Thanks for the input ahead of time.
     
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  2. Teila

    Teila

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    You need at least a couple of programmers and good ones are hard to find and expensive.

    You also need artists. You can get stuff on the asset store, but you want to match the art style, which is tough. Assets are not cheap. So you need at least one person familiar with 3d modeling and texturing. Again, a good one is hard to find and expensive.

    Then you need writers for lore, quests, NPCs, etc.

    You need a UI artist, someone to make the game UI's and every other UI you need.

    You need an animator, or at least someone that can modify animations you buy to fit your characters.

    Oh, and you need characters. UMA is good but complex, takes time to learn but worth it, but you will need content for the characters and a system for the players to create their own characters.

    Most importantly of all, you will need a network solution. We use Forge3d. Have tried a number of the. Stay away from Atavism unless you wish to make the game that you don't want to make, like everyone else's game...I am sure the Atavism crowd will come out to welcome you soon. :)

    I usually suggest that a person join another team or make other games first. It is the best way to learn.

    But since you seem to have the money to pay....

    We paid our programmers 15 years ago 50k a year. Probably more now. Via contract probably hourly wages in the hundreds.

    Artists, similar to above. A character for example might run you at least $500. True of animators as well and landscape designers.

    You might find writers and lore people free or at low cost. You get what you pay for.

    Time depends on your scope and the size of your team. A AAA company takes 5-10 years for a game, more WoW like but they have hundreds of people. So an indie game with a team of 10, a long time.

    I can't help you with equipment, but you may have to buy expensive art software like Photoshop and 3dMax/Maya. Server costs can be high. You will need adequate development computers for each team member.

    Again, highly suggest you learn a bit more about game development before you tackle an MMO. We are making one and it is time consuming, requires a lot of learning, risky, and sometimes just scary...but it is loads of fun with the right team and if you have the money to spend. :) And I mean a lot of money. Crowdfunding is tough these days with all the failed games. Not easy at all if you don't have a name behind you and haven't made any other games.

    Good luck!
     
  3. 3LittlePigs

    3LittlePigs

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    I appreciate all of the input.

    You are correct about crowdfunding.

    I'd want something far less spectacular than WoW, or most newly released MMOs, with the appeal coming from new and unique gameplay and the players' ability to create and manipulate the world (within limitations). The idea would be that players could create a lot of the content themselves, so the lack of initial content wouldn't such a bad thing.

    Also, I wouldn't expect it to be pretty... so there is that, to cut costs, too.

    I think I could handle most of the writing.

    Even so, I'm looking at what.... 2 million?
     
  4. Teila

    Teila

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    I have no idea, but hey, why not? If you have that kind of money then go get quotes from artists and programmers and then write a design doc, see how long you think it will take to run out of money. :)

    LOL My programmer says "hire us"! LOL Of course, he is kidding..don't hire us. Get quotes from people who could actually spend the time to finish your game. :)
     
  5. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    You'll find this much harder to build then you expect. Even for a big team experienced in MMOs.

    And then I must ask, why an MMO? Why does your game have to be in that format?
     
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  6. TonyLi

    TonyLi

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    Don't be discouraged. The folks who posted above took the time out of their busy schedules to reply because they're nice people and want to give you the benefit of their experience.

    Given where you are right now, build up slowly. Consider doing your world building in a text-based MUD first. You can read about MUD servers here. This will let you bypass a huge number of technical hurdles associated with graphics and networking. You'll also be able to build a team and a community.

    As much as I love Unity, there are no good off-the-self MMO systems for it yet. You'll be better off with a dedicated MMO engine such as Hero Engine. You could still use Unity, but it will be very time-consuming and expensive. Then again, if you start with, say, a single player RPG, Unity would be a great choice for that.

    Even if you were to use Unity for an MMO, throwing millions of dollars at the project is no guarantee of success. (And it would take a huge amount of effort to get an MMO running in Unity.) Look at the ill-fated 38 Studios for example.

    By building a non-MMO or a MUD, you'll hone your project management skills, refine your vision, and get all the other development stuff out of the way so you can focus on graphics and networking later.

    Speaking of millions of dollars, keep in mind that crowdfunding is not a way to gain backers. It's a way to call your existing backers to action, only a small percentage of whom will actually contribute. Don't even think of crowdfunding until you have a pool of people that's several times larger than what you'd actually need to meet your funding goals.

    All this is to say that you can build your MMO. But it requires a huge commitment of time and money (less money = more time) and the patience to start slowly and accept that there will be plenty of stumbling blocks along the way.

    Start with one programmer who can act as a technical lead. This person will provide the primary input on technical decisions, such as which software and hardware to use. Eventually, as you build a team, this person will probably not do any programming but instead coordinate the technical efforts of others. If you decide to jump into full graphics, use something like Hero Engine and find someone experienced with it. If you start with a MUD, find a good MUD server person. My recommendation is to not hire outsourcers to do lots of one-off jobs. You won't be able to build a cohesive technical system, or a cohesive team, this way.

    And good luck!
     
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  7. Teila

    Teila

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    @TonyLi

    Excellent suggestions, @TonyLi. We had someone recommend Hero Engine to us but decided to go with Unity. There are times when I wish we had done otherwise, but for us, it was the assets we needed, people like you, Tony. We had the programmers and the time. However, if I were to do it again, with the skills I have now and the knowledge I have now, I probably would have gone with Hero Engine, at least at first. A MUD would have been a great idea too, especially since I have experience with them and love them. But alas, we dived in, not sure if it was head or feet first. :)

    However, I probably would not know what I know now. :) Unity is a great tool, the best overall. Not perfect, but none of them are.

    I agree, don't be discouraged, @3LittlePigs. We don't depend on this to make a living so for us, it is a wondrous meandering journey. Just remember....you are bringing a world to life. It takes time, patience, a good sense of humor, and a lively imagination. If you have those and have another way to make money, then by all means, do it. :) I love to have more MMO makers here. There is such a small number of us.
     
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  8. AndrewGrayGames

    AndrewGrayGames

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    You can also scale down and build a MORPG.

    BYOND is pretty much a MUD tool that has produced some neat stuff, like NEStalgia, described rather accurately as "Dragon Warrior III meets WoW." It sells on Steam, is created by hobbyists...and, isn't a half bad game (I play it on occasion.)

    Granted, it's still a lot of work...but it's at least more feasible.
     
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  9. 3LittlePigs

    3LittlePigs

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    Simply because that is what I enjoy playing, the most. I get bored really fast on anything non-MMO... and have now started to get bored with those, too.
     
  10. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    Fair enough. It's not my place to stop you. However I have to ask, can the experience you are looking for be created without thousands of players? Think about it for a while. You are setting yourself up for a long run that might not ever be finished. And if it is finished it might not actually get the players it needs to succeed. And yet there are very few games that actually need to be MMOs to provide the core experience of the game.

    It might be just me, but I've picked up a few games lately with MMO tacked on because it's the in thing. In several cases a single player game would have been a better experience.
     
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  11. PenguinEmporium

    PenguinEmporium

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    I'd say look to create a sub genre in the MMORPG category. Look at how players interact in today's games and change it up. Maybe you could make agario.rpg instead of wow or eve online. At least make a small mmo project to see if you even like the setup. You might prefer a smaller multiplayer experience.
     
  12. TonyLi

    TonyLi

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    Or just go for it and make the MMORPG that you envision. Never make something you don't want to make. Keep in mind that any big endeavor requires a huge amount of patience, dedication, and perseverance to overcome failures.

    I just realized no one answered your wages question. There's no single answer. Notch made the first version of Minecraft on his own. Other companies have employed hundreds of people to make AAA MMORPGs. Roughly speaking, you'll pay decent developers at least $20/hour, often significantly more. I only mention this because if someone offers to work for less, you might as well just give them the money for free because they're probably worthless for your needs. The total cost and timeframe will depend on whether you leverage existing technology such as Hero Engine or build your own, and how the project is managed. Each of these (existing tech and management) could swing the cost and time by a huge factor, like 10 years instead of 2.
     
  13. 3LittlePigs

    3LittlePigs

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    I have played smaller scale MO games. Starting with Diablo II. Not for me. Though, to be fair, Diablo II was the best of its time AND its lineage.
    MMO is the only way, for me.

    Yeah, and the problem with those MMOs are that they lack the ability for players to influence the world. If the characters cannot influence the world, then it is simply a MMO-chat room with MO-Gameplay....which is what we've seen for years. The closest thing to the contrary is the mass PvP systems in a couple of games (GW2, ESO, and I am thinking of another I can't recall the name to)...

    What I want to create is a means for people to build upon and manipulate the basic MMO environment they are given.... and basically a separate world. That's not going to be pretty.... and balance will be and issue (one I think is better left alone)... but at the end of the day, I want to make anything (or almost anything) possible... through XP and other currency expenditure.

    Maybe I'm crazy.... but I'm tired of skill trees and action bars. I'm tired of crafting caps. I'm tired of bland outfits, and waiting for the next patch to see if anything good comes out. I want the world to be constantly changed by the players. And, if you start out with a small world....that's ok, because you have given the players the means to expand on it.

    Maybe I'm just crazy, though.


    I feel like too many developers are too worried about creating their worlds (MMO environment) and less worried about creating something that players can influence. At the end of the day, everything is far too rigid. We will only come closer to a true alternate world when we relinquish a certain amount of control over it, and hand some power to the players. I think that is scary for developers... They want to create a ratatouille.... what I want to create is more like stone soup.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2015
  14. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    No more crazy then something like MineCraft. I'm just challenging you, many wannabe MMO decs simply want to make one because they are cool. Seems like you have an experience that needs the MMO platform.
     
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  15. 3LittlePigs

    3LittlePigs

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    These two things alone make me feel like you "get it."

    That in itself has a certain amount of satisfaction.
     
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  16. Kiwasi

    Kiwasi

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    So the idea has merit. There are two ways I could see you approaching this.

    The first is to approach an existing small studio with a good track record. Pitch the idea and an offer of funding. If you can convince an existing studio to make the game, then it probably has legs. You might loose some of the creative control of the project with this approach. It puts you in the position of an investor or financer.

    The other alternative is to start your own studio. Employ people directly to make the game for you. This puts you more in the business management role. If you are going to go this way I would strongly suggest doing a smaller project or two first. That way you and your team can make all of the starting out mistakes on a smaller time frame.

    As a disclaimer I personally have never attempted anything this big. It's entirely possible in completely off base.
     
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  17. Tomnnn

    Tomnnn

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    I like this new guy.

    Maybe you can draw some inspiration from albion online? It's brand new and has a focus on not having classes and players being able to own land and build on it which builds up the world. Doing any action increases your proficiency in it, making future attempts at whatever it is yield more results.

    Any thoughts on voxel terrain? Do you want people to only build upon the ground with prefabs or dig into the terrain, shape mountains, and build things with materials free-form / block by block?

    I like the idea of expanding the world, and albion's setup might be a good example to follow there too. The map is broken up into clusters. You don't have to worry about managing an infinite world because there are little gates on the end of variably sized maps that transition to other maps.
     
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  18. Teila

    Teila

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    I don't think this is true. I happen to know quite a few developers' whose game designs are about player choice and influence rather than about making the game they want to play or control. True with AAA, but not indie. Albion is a just one of many examples.

    The difference is that the Indie developers are still in the midst of making their games so you don't hear as much about them.

    Yeah, we all want to think our game is the "one" special game that will break all the rules. But the concept of player content and player influencing the world has been around for a while....there are even several AAA games that have touched upon it recently. Very difficult for a game with millions of users to switch gears though, so the WoW's of the world are still the predominate game. Also, very hard to compete with the AAA big games, like Landmark and others.

    From what you have told us, your game is no different from mine or any of the other MMO creators I have met here. We are all bored with the games out there, all making "different" games, all wanting to change the course of the MMO genre. And...ironically, we are all going in a similar direction. :)

    Games like Minecraft and even single player games that allow player content have taught us all something.
     
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  19. Teila

    Teila

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    Ooo, I want to see that map idea in action. I guess I will play this game. lol When will it be available? I know release is March or sometime.

    Oh forgot, Founder's fee. lol I can wait. Looked at the website, looks very nice and professional. Definitely gives the player a LOT of control. One thing it does not have is player created content, such as uploading models, but that is a huge nightmare in MMO's so can see why that isn't there.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2015
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  20. Tomnnn

    Tomnnn

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    The open beta is after the closed beta, which started like a week ago, and will go on for a few months. So... march, maybe, sure :D

    It's pretty nice. I've thought about doing it before, but my game ideas never make it that far. I end up with a handful of mechanics in 1 scene. Or a hub that leads to random spaces instead of a fake-infinite world stitched together properly on the edges.


    That's only for closed beta access :)

    I have an experiment in another thread for that. Haven't made much progress on it since my myos arrived in the mail, but it appears to be super simple. Albion is using unity so they could totally do it too. But uh... I have a feeling they don't want certain models to appear in their game world. Or they don't want people to grief the mobile hardware by putting in models with way too many faces :p
     
  21. Teila

    Teila

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    Problem with player content is not just too many faces, but also you will be forced to control some content. I am all for free speech, but not on a server where I am responsible for what happens. Every bit of content would have to go through an approval process, to make sure there are no game making bugs (yes, bad models are bad) and to make sure the content is not derogatory, insulting to some player group, etc. I don't want to weed out white supremacist or Nazi symbols or X-rated stuff. I don't want to spend hours wading through bad models....or have to hire a team to do just that.

    There are ways to add player content, but it will be time consuming and expensive from a labor point of view. Using volunteers is frowned upon in this day and age....lawsuits and all.
     
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  22. 3LittlePigs

    3LittlePigs

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    Looks like all I may have to do is sit around and wait a few years for a new interesting take on MMOs. And here I had gone and given up on MMORPG devs. haha

    According to you guys, the ONLY thing I think I probably will not be seeing in the genre in the future is the combat mechanics I thought up (which probably aren't nearly as unique I as think).

    May just give it a few years, and see what happens in the genre.
     
  23. 3LittlePigs

    3LittlePigs

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    My idea is basically give a certain amount of animations, models, etc.... and let players assign stats on the items, housing, and abilities based on XP, current player stats, and other accumulated currency. Have basic attack animations that can be chained in combination, etc. (Ofc, this all seems for feasible when you understand how my combat mechanics would work.)

    Then, also allow players with development skills to submit more models and animations for use. If you made a basic development kit, that closely resembled a character creator (just adjust already used models), with the ability to apply imported textures.... this all becomes more feasible. YES, reviewing all of it would be a bit time consuming... but unless you are far too strict, most of it should pass or fail on a glance. Not hard to get the man-power for that. Of course, always have a reporting feature for when something slips through the cracks.

    It SHOULDN'T be a nightmare at all. And, so what if your game has a few offensive things or a bit of nudity? I don't get why it really matters. People crack me up.... they want to play a game where they can camp "newbs," but QQ because someone has the username Hitler. Personally.... I'd rather lose those players than cater to them.... but I guess for everyone else it's about making as much money as possible. And that's fine, money does make the world go 'round... but no one will ever fix the stagnation in MMORPGs if their first concern is money.
     
  24. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    It depends entirely on who you are offending and with what subject. Some countries may outright ban your game if they feel it doesn't comply with their regulations. Australia is particularly known for this.
     
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  25. Tomnnn

    Tomnnn

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    I was trying to say that without stating an example such as someone erecting a statue of some genitals in town square.

    Maybe have an adult rated server to house models like that, the same way second life does.

    As you forge gear, granting you gear-crafting experience and giving you access to better gear, the gear itself contains skills that you can use. While crafting the item you even get a choice on some of the skills. Crafting a beginner chest piece gives you 3 spells. The optional slot can contain a healing spell or I think a speed buff or a passive health buff. I first saw this concept in .hack// and have been upset that it hasn't been in any games until recently :p

    They also want weapons to be tied to a role. So if you want to be a tank, then you go for a mace because mace class weapons in Albion tend to cause knockback and stun effects, increasing your effectiveness in your role as a tank. Weapons and armors fit together based on the bonuses and skills you need to best create your role. You can be a full on mage, but maybe you want to have heavy melee weapons for high damage and magic robes to regain your mana faster to cast lots of skills.

    There's a lot of things they're doing that I personally love because it's a combination of a few of my favorite games. There's probably still room for innovation though if you can still put a team together to develop your idea.

    It matters because it matters to the people who put ratings on your games. "Offense is taken, not given" doesn't go very high up the chain of command. We reasonable people always find ourselves on the bottom.

    But what else can you expect from people? Guided by emotion, they are unreasonable and unreliable with contradictory ideologies that only stick together when they have authoritarian sub-societies.
     
  26. 3LittlePigs

    3LittlePigs

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    This is true, but as I said... it comes down to money, really, doesn't it?

    You're still going to be dealing with "rotations" with this concept. Also, with a system like this, you'll be limiting what abilities a character can use, more than I think should be limited. I prefer a different system, altogether.
    Basically, have basic attacks/abilities for melee, ranged, and magic... but make those adjustable based on the character's skill in each one. Even allow for adjustable visual effects. However, that would just be the start.
    (I hate to say this, but the idea I'm about to say comes directly from SAO... how in ALO, characters can make their own finishing moves)
    Basically, rather than having an action bar of dev-made abilities, allow characters to piece together the basic moves, with their own tweaks, to create combos and place those on their action bar instead. The potential effectiveness of the combos would depend on a variety of things: How well the initial recording of the combo was executed, character stats, and how the attacks are arranged.
    On top of that, every basic attack/ability can be countered by another, even in the middle of a combo, interrupting the combo. Though I USUALLY hate prompts, basically have prompts to parry/block/dodge attacks. Obviously some attacks are faster and some are slower... adjust prompts accordingly. The prompts will basically tell you which abilities you can use in that split second to counter your opponent. Obviously, the prompt feature will only be usable on one opponent at a time. And there is always the stealth attack.

    I know, it sounds so crazy.... but it beats the hell out of a rotation, in my opinion.

    Understandable, to a degree. If you're using a shield, you are obviously going to be more tanky. However, I like the GW2 system that leans more to being self-reliant... because at the end of the day, being confined to strict roles is unrealistic. That's why PvP builds tend to be much more self-reliant, even in games with definitive roles.

    And, I'd like to really focus on the PvP aspect. Personally, I'd want to focus on more small scale PvP. I've seen large, war-like PvP...and I didn't like what I saw. Dueling systems would be important. Betting items/money in duels would be allowed. You could even bet your "life" in certain situations. By life, I mean permanent character deletion for the loser.

    Then you have to deal with griefing, right? Simple fix: If someone kills someone outside a duel request at least 10 times within 20 minutes, the griefing character will be toggled to a mode that will cause it to be permanently deleted if killed by another player. So, they can have fun with that. If they're just that awesome, they have nothing to worry about... if they're just picking on the weak, they better hope someone stronger doesn't come along.

    In a world where 8-year-olds are playing GTA, I'm amused we're that worried about what it is rated at. Seriously... your audience will NOT drop very drastically if it is rated Mature. In fact, I believe that would actually be a selling point.

    But, again, it goes back to people more worried about how much money they are going to make, rather than producing something different. Fairly common in the entertainment industry, kind of how all the movie studios are doing movies adapted from comic books, because they're making money and the stories are already written. Or if you look at how similar Mazerunner, Divergent, and Hunger Games are. Sure, they are slightly different, but the meat and potatoes of all three of the series is the same.... all made into movies one after the other... because they were making money. Reality TV.... Seriously... do I have to explain this one?

    The problem right now is that no one with the money has any desire or ability to risk losing money. Everyone who wants something different is stuck without the means to create it. So, we're stuck in this cycle of crappy, cookie-cutter, games until someone with some money runs the risk of doing something different.

    And IF it turns out really successful, we'll be sick of that in a few years, too, because that's what everyone in the gaming industry will switch to.

    Sorry about the rant... not sure where all this anger is coming from. hehe
     
  27. Teila

    Teila

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    I don't think you get the point. :) I don't have a problem with nudity or even sex in games. I prefer that to violence, to be honest.

    However....as stated above by Tomnnn, some countries would not allow your game to be sold if certain symbols were shown. Others are strict about certain kinds of violence. Some regard sex as only appropriate for M rated games. If you rate your game as M, you can do more, but...you are restricting the market for your game. People in certain countries will not be able to play it. We are an international community here, so take that in mind when you request information.

    Also...offensive content will define your player base. Some people will not be comfortable with certain symbols or content. They will leave the game. They will warn others not to play the game. Reviews will be out. This can be good as in might get you in the news...however, again, you are defining who plays your game. If you wish to be a niche game that is sold only in countries that have no restriction on content and rate the game M, you will be fine....maybe.

    This has been done before and failed. "There" was a virtual world where people could make their own content. I used to play there at times and it was interesting, sort of. They used templates and everything. Look it up. Now, you will hopefully have more purpose than "There" did, which was mostly socializing....although it did have some games.

    Second Life also does this and they give a lot of freedom. It is not new or innovative and hasn't been in years.

    We are making a niche game and we do not expect to make a lot of money. Niche groups are small and a game created specifically for a niche group is going to create a game that the masses won't play. We are not doing this to make money. I am making a game I want to play and making it for a community that wants to play our game.

    I think it is a huge leap from concerns about player created content and the logistics involved to "money is the first concern". I don't think that is it at all. We are trying to help you avoid some of the pitfalls, things you may not have thought of like the bans on certain content in countries, ratings issues, and the logistics of approving player content. You asked...Anything else?

    You can take it as you wish. :) We get MMO developer wannabes every day and this will be a thread they can read as well. You came here to gather information, and we are giving it to you. You can use it or not. Your choice.

    Seriously, I do encourage you to try, whether now or in a few years.
     
    Ryiah and AndrewGrayGames like this.
  28. Teila

    Teila

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    AAA companies, yes, that is true. They have shareholders and that is how the functions. Indies? No, we are taking risks every day and creating games that are different and unique.

    I am sure you are sincere...as I have used that same argument with people who ask why I no longer play the big MMO's.
    However, you are talking to Indie game developers here, not just gamers and not AAA corporations. MMOs are difficult to make for Indie teams, but technology is making it easier. With Unity's Unet just around the corner, I think we will see more multiplayer/MMO's in 2-5 years and my guess is most of them will be smaller niche games that appeal to aspects of MMO's.

    Most of us do not do this to make money, because it is very difficult to get rich in this industry. If you get a Minecraft or an Angry Birds, maybe. But few of us will get that. We make games because we love to make games. There are those who come to make money, and they make clones usually...and there are those who are very very good, so their games do sell.

    But the majority..we do it because we enjoy making games.

    PS: I get the anger. I rant at times too, although usually to my family who are all game developers too. lol
     
  29. 3LittlePigs

    3LittlePigs

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    Believe it or not, I do appreciate the advice, and I apologize to everyone for my abrasive personality. It also probably doesn't help that I'm incredibly frustrated at the entertainment industry as a whole, right now.

    My only point was that Mature games have historically done quite well... even if not necessarily in the MMORPG side. Like I said, we live in a world where 8-year-olds play GTA.

    I feel like if you filtered out the incredibly offensive material, and didn't worry about the minor things, you'd be ok. Banned in some countries? Sure. But, I don't think that making your audience as large as possible, at the expense of what you consider quality, is always the right move. Not sure I said that correctly.
     
  30. Teila

    Teila

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    I absolutely agree with that. :) Our game will grow with our player base, that way, if we have 500 players, the world will still be busy enough to encourage people to play. If we have 1000 players, we add on to the world. If we have 100 players, we will deal with that in other ways. I would be perfectly happy with 100 players.

    As I said, we are going for niche. We want to eliminate a large portion of the MMO population from our game. lol Seems crazy, but our target audience wants that. Whether they are big enough to sustain an MMO in the long term, who knows. Since for us this is a labor of love, just finishing will be enough.

    Understood and you are forgiven. :) Just remember, there is a large number of us here for the same reasons.

    Yes, but there is a difference. In an MMO, you cannot control the "content", and I mean the players, how they act, what they say, etc. What happens when that 8 year old's mother finds out he is being sexually solicited by some 40 year old guy? You get the phone call, the letter from lawyers, etc. Yeah, you can make them put in their birth date, and even request ID, but you can never be sure that they are all adults.

    So..not a big deal until one bad parent doesn't watch what his/her kids do online.

    You may not care...but as a parent, I care. I am a good parent, I watch what my kids do online..and my kids are teens. I talk to them about dangers and they tell me bad experiences they have online. We communicate, but not all kids do.

    Not your problem, right? Maybe...but with the way things are going in my country alone, I seriously wouldn't want to be the test case for unfiltered content in some congressional hearing or a supreme court case. Might up the popularity of the game, but not sure I want to try to defend something like this.
     
  31. 3LittlePigs

    3LittlePigs

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    I'd be interested in knowing what you are creating. I agree that the bulk of the current MMO crowd does not belong in my ideal game. Why? Because the bulk of MMO players want everything to be easy, copy a certain skill set, and tap buttons until it dies. (I know that is an oversimplification) Most MMO gamers aren't gamers at all, they're just socializing and earning shiny new loot that is the equivalent of a participation medal.
    Not that there are not good gamers in MMOs... there are.. they are the theorycrafters, from whom the bulk gets their builds, and hard core raiders, pushing into new content first, who document boss strategies for everyone else to copy.
    Ideally, I'd prefer a MMO where everyone has to figure most of it out for themselves... and not everything works for everyone... with enough viable "builds" with multiple purposes to keep theorycrafters busy into the next century.
    Yeah, that's a tall order.


    Disclose beforehand. Simply state that you must be 17-18 or older to play, require credit card info, or some such nonsense. Simple as that. I also have kids. Two girls, actually. So, I get it. However, it is really on the parents at that point.

    Teenagers smoke illegally - We still sell cigarettes at the convenience store.
    Teenagers drink - We still have liquor stores.

    I think that not creating a product for adults, simply because a child MAY partake regardless of the warning, is probably a bad policy.

    Heck, there are free "adult videos" all over the internet... so I really don't see why a game with mature entertainment (filtering out the explicit, of course) or offensive material would be a problem.

    And as far as underage people being solicited goes... there are still chat rooms in abundance, and that's been a problem since day 1.

    These are just my thoughts on it, though.
     
  32. Teila

    Teila

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    That isn't what I meant. :) We should create games for adults. However, player created content in an MMO is another story. That is my opinion. If you want to allow any content, complete free speech, you are going to attract a certain mindset. That mindset is going to create a certain atmosphere.

    Personally, that is not an audience I want but....it might be your preferred audience.

    I don't want real-life religious wars in my game or real life political dramas, t-shirts with Donald Trump, or Nazi symbols, or misogynistic dialogue. I want players to engage in a fictional world, enjoy themselves, and create the conflict from the lore and story, not from the real world.

    Remember, the game WE want to play? That is not my game. As I said in a previous thread, this is how I feel about it. You are free to do as you wish.

    I don't think you would like my game. ;)
     
    AndrewGrayGames likes this.
  33. 3LittlePigs

    3LittlePigs

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    See.... it isn't so black and white, though. Have an RP server for those who like to RP, if you fail to RP and cause problems with RL issues, you can be reported and placed in a non-RP server.

    For normal servers there is the block button. AND, you could easily add an option to censor certain skins and skins worn by certain people. Just have those targeted by the censorship show the default texture rather than the custom.

    However, it seems you are more or less wanting a troll-free environment.... That WILL take a lot of man-power. A ton more manpower than approving new player-made models and skins. If you think you can target a troll-free audience, I'd be thoroughly interested in how you plan to make that feasible.

    Short version: You are pointing out problems with easy solutions or that cannot be completely fixed in an online multiplayer game.
     
  34. Teila

    Teila

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    Everyone wants a troll free environment but I am not so naive to think that will be possible. ;) Trolls have nothing at all to do with inappropriate custom content.

    I think this is one of those things you have to see to understand.

    While we cannot completely eliminate inappropriate behavior, it is certainly possible to anticipate problems that might arise due to our own game design and find ways we might deal with them. Unanticipated issues that surprise us can lead to mass exodus from our game. So better to be prepared.

    Allowing almost complete freedom of player content with no more than a glance over them seems a prime example of not anticipating problems. However, you can do what you want.

    I feel like you are trying to convince me to agree with you but my experience has told me otherwise. :) Enjoy and have fun. Can't wait to hear back from you in a few years and hope you surprise me.
     
  35. 3LittlePigs

    3LittlePigs

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    Completely ignoring an in-game censorship feature and a report button... which I have already suggested... seems to be a prime example of ignoring the counter argument simply because you want to be "right."

    Not that there will not be problems with it... I'm sure there are number of things I haven't anticipated... just not the problems you see. I've given solutions to those. Rather simple ones, too.

    I do appreciate help. However, it seems you don't want to discuss anything... rather, you want to lecture... and when I offer solutions, you ignore them.

    I'm not here to argue, however, and I'm definitely not here to bash my head against that box until you're able to think outside of it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2015
  36. Teila

    Teila

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    Of course you are here to argue. lol

    There is no right or wrong. There is only what we are willing to do. You asked for advice, I am giving it, which I guess means I am lecturing. But I guess really, you wanted to lecture us about money and our motives as game developers instead of accepting the advice, tossing what you don't want and keeping what helps you. That is fine but I think we have exhausted it. Let us end before it turns into personal insults, which helps neither of us. :) Let us support each other instead.

    Again, good luck. I really like that you are willing to go to somewhere new, but I am going to have to ignore you from now on, only because I have a major issues I am dealing with at the moment with some grass...lol. So I can't keep being compelled to come here and respond because of that stupid little alert at the top.

    I love having new MMO creators at the forums and truly, I wish you luck.
     
  37. 3LittlePigs

    3LittlePigs

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    I wouldn't go as far as to call me a creator. I've yet to begin anything other than basic concepts.

    However, I also wish you luck.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2015
  38. Teila

    Teila

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    You created an idea...you are a creator, just like a writer is a creator.

    I unwatched and the little alert came up again! I tell ya, I cannot resist them. lol
     
  39. Tomnnn

    Tomnnn

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    Ah, that clarifies what you'd like to do. Usually when games do this, it's the focus of the entire game. I think pop-up dungeon is going to have a fully featured version of this, where you can choose all kinds of settings to create spells. And you can add extras like "can't move while casting" or "only has a range of 1 block" as negatives so you can reduce the spell cost or increase the damage.

    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1829438086/popup-dungeon

    Maybe their gui for the spell creator will inspire you :D