My opinion on why its great to help people (with anything)

Agreed, but from those 75% of questions most do get answered. No?

In general, lack of answers means:

-The OP didn't have a clear enough explanation of his/her problem (although even then, someone usually asks "what do you mean by...")

-The question is waaaaaay too broad. Which would require to explain a bunch of other concepts first, explain that there are multiple paths you can take, then suggest an actual path (in short, write a small book on the subject matter).

-The question is way too basic and asked all over and can be found by looking at the manual, or googling it (and even then someone might reply to look at the manual etc)

-Or the question is of a very, very peculiar and strange thing that not a lot of people know about, and no one that knows the answer happens to see the thread.

 

The idea that the same basic questions are asked over and over and over ad nauseam is what burns people out in MMO help channels and in-bound phone help call centers. What you have to keep in mind is that while it's the billionth time for you to see that question, it's probably the first time for that person, or else they wouldn't be asking it.

I agree with you there. One thing to keep in mind though is that, at least here in the US, schools do not focus on teaching people how to learn. Instead they teach people how to find solutions and memorize facts. This means that these people now have a built in expectation that what you do is go out and find the answer, grab it, and use it.

If they are going to stay in programming long, they will learn out that programming is all about problem solving. Learning is to integral to not use it and still be a good programmer.

Which is why I have more than once responded to someone that, "Here are the resources. You'll learn more going through that and understanding it."

 

Which means it has been answered plenty already, which means he/she should have spent 5 minutes searching for the answer first, that's the annoying part.

If he did search for the answer, but doesn't understand it or needs clarification, then people are usually happy to answer (because then usually the question is more specific as well).

 

@Teila, it seems from you posting history that you've been asking questions far more than answering them so far. I think you should wait until you have walked a mile in the answering shoes before issuing verdicts.

Right now, it seems that you believe that every question, no matter how trivial or how oft repeated, was asked by someone who surely has sufficiently researched the question before asking, and thus they deserve an answer. They also get a free pass if they don't bother to show gratitude or appreciation because it's due to their upbringing and no fault of their own. You're even offended by the old "give a fish vs. teach fishing adage" because it might imply that not all questions are equally and unequivocally worth answering.

And, on the other hand, you're so dismissive of the other side that you don't even want to hear from those who can answer questions but don't. So you basically only want to hear answers to your questions or reasons why it's good to have your questions answered. I'm sorry to say this, but that comes across as rather insular and entitled on your part.

Wait until you have spent some time on the other side. I'm sure the fresh perspective will considerably evolve your opinion.

 

To add some of my own to that list:
9) I have already answered the same question at least once before. (basically of a mashup of 2&3)
10) The question is way beyond the understanding of person asking the question. ("I just downloaded Unity, how do I make a realistic AI that can do conversations?")
11) Peggle/Angry Birds has released a new level pack.

 

The flip side of this is also when you respond to the question, but any simple answer you give goes completely over their head. That's always a fun one.

 

Really? I have rarely asked a question about coding, scripting or anything else of that nature. lol Most of the time I am here, we are talking about design or something like that. I have answered many more. I have helped people who are making their first assets when they asked my opinions, posted many answers on the design forum, and have defended people who have been attacked when they ask questions. I don't know a lot of answers, like all you smart guys, since I am not a programmer. But trust me, I try to help. I do ignore a lot of questions, shake my head and tell my kids never to ask that "sort" of question.

Yeah, I get it though...attack me now. Guess deflecting takes less time than directing someone to the correct forum.

Did you read what I said? lol Um..I don't think I called anyone names. Not sure where that is coming from. How do you know when a person has done everything they can do and is finally asking for help? Obvious sometimes, but not always. Never is a big word..and I don't think I used it. :)

Quoting myself here:

I absolutely agree that many questions are not worth answering, or better yet they are worth ignoring. And I a not at all offended by the "give a fish"...it was the ending of the "give a fish" as quoted here that was offensive. Do you know the actual quote?

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day...teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

That is not how it was said on this forum and in fact, it was twisted into a reason not to help someone. The original quote is all about helping, but rather than helping by spoonfeeding, helping by showing someone how to do something. Feeding for a day would be giving him script or doing something for him. Sending him to the correct forum or a tutorial, as I suggested, feeds him for a lifetime.

The OP started this to talk about why he found helping others satisfying. That is the topic of the thread. Instead, it turned into a reason why you should not help people.

I was supporting the OP. :)

As for dismissive, read my above quote. I actually agree with a lot of what was said. I do read. ;) Actually, I think you are totally dismissive of my point of view...absolutely, completely. I at least, admitted above that some of the posts should be ignored. You? You attack me personally. Great job! You made your point and look cool among the cool kids.

Oh boy....I spent many years doing just that, answering hundreds of questions a day on a very popular gaming forum and managing a team. I know EXACTLY what it feels like. In fact, my opinion evolved from the great community we built because we did hire people who helped others and were not dismissive of them. They supported others and like the OP, gained satisfaction from doing so.

You know nothing about me, Shaderop, so I forgive you.

 

Tottally! On a similar note, sometimes very knowledgeable people who are new to the "Unity" way may phrase things oddly. Not too long ago, someone asked about grouped objects, and their pivots. I wrote this long explanation of how to move children relatively, how parenting works, yadda.. yadda. Turns out all really needed to know was about the Pivot/Center button in the editor.

 

If your entire experience, so to speak, is about offering your opinion on subjective matters, then you really haven't walked a step in the shoes of those who answer actual technical questions that require specific and often detailed answers. You're on a product form, you admit to not actually contributing any answers about the actual product, and yet you feel that it's well within your right to tell those who do how to do it and how to behave while doing it.

I must say that you seem rather thin-skinned for someone who is supposedly a veteran of so many gaming forums. Please go back and reread my post; I've done my best to phrase it as my opinion on how your words (not you personally) are coming across. Also you might want to explain what it is exactly that I'm "deflecting" by supposedly attacking you. Or at least make sure that that is the actual word you want to use. And while you're at it extend me the same courtesy I extended you and look at my posting history and see for yourself if your accusations apply to me or not.

Yes, I have read what you have said. Have you read what I wrote? Because I haven't claimed that you've called anyone names. You keep conjuring accusations at me out of thin air.

I don't have proof, but I'm not in a court of law so I don't need it. Logic will do just fine. And if someone asks a questions that gets asked once every day on the forum, then it's reasonable to conclude that that person did far less than everything they can to find the answer themselves.

I admire your unbound sympathy, but perhaps it ought to be more equally distributed. Mixing it with a dose of logic certainly won't hurt.

Yes, I do the know the actual quote. And please note that this is the second time you have taken a swipe at my character, but this time by attributing ignorance instead of outright psychotic malice.

And I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Here's the how that saying originally appeared in this thread:

And you're saying that...

So you think that no man should ever be taught how to fish or be asked to learn how to fish. But they must be given a fish whenever they demand it. That's a unique take that seems to miss the whole point of the saying, and all you're doing is confirming my original understanding of your position: All questions are equally and unequivocally worth answering and to suggest otherwise, even through the use of a timeless adage, is offensive to you.

Look at the original quote. That is, in fact, exactly how it was said on this forum.

I'm sure a veteran of Internet discussions like yourself would recognize that using a bit of common wisdom as an argument to support one's position doesn't equate to "twisting" it to support a different agenda. And you sure are quick to attribute malice to others who don't agree with your opinion.

Sorry, but this underlines how little you know on how and what technical questions get asked on this forum. Rest assured that even after redirecting the question to the proper forum, it will not get magically answered by itself. Someone will still have to answer it. I'm not sure how you got the impression that it's simply a matter of proper classification.

People who actually helped others in the past were offering their take on the long term effect it had on them and whether they found it sustainable or not. Instead of engaging with them to try to find a way to avoid burnout, you asked them to can it and only talk about how good it feels to help people.

I never attacked you personally. As I said before, go back and read my original post and you'll find that I did my best to make sure that it was understood that it was my impression on how your statements came across. As a veteran of so many Internet forums, I think you ought to be able to appreciate the difference between criticizing an opinion and attacking the person who stated that opinion.

If anything, it was you who leveled personal attacks at me at least twice in your post. First by suggesting that I was motivated by some sort of psychological illness that compels me to "deflect," and then by belittling my intelligence by suggesting that I didn't know the "fish vs. fishing" saying.

It's fantastic that you hired people and had them do as you wished. But you're not in that forum, and we're not your hirelings. The sooner you manage to internalize that fact the better you'll be able to appreciate the other side of the discussion.

 

Shader, I am not at all thinned skin or at all upset about your comments. I actually think you are the thinned skinned one.

And yes, you did make it personal. Not only that but you used me to cover up your own lack of supporting others.

Grow up and listen to the Unity Mods. They posted a thread about people not supporting newcomers. Build this community, and stop trying to tear it down.

 

ShaderOp stated simply facts and is not thin skinned. You are reverting to personal attacks..yet again. Your last paragraph is a doozy.

 

Actually, this thread has turned into a thread about fishing.

 

Yeah, it is.

I am sorry that I participated in derailing the thread. But you might want to continue it here. http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/current-moderator-activity.311691/

 

I find these threads interesting. Within these threads we can see why there is so much chaos in the world. The reason for wars between individuals and even nations. We all have our own way of seeing things and to us it is the "right" way.

Anywho... it is always good to help although more satisfying when the person being helped is obviously trying.

 

Yes, that is human nature, for good or bad. It would be nice if we could all express our opinion and allow ourselves to grow from the exposure to other suggestions.

Instead, I end my participation with a creepy feeling of someone going through my post history to pull out parts to use against me. lol I feel like a politician! I didn't realize I was so important as to warrant the time involved.

 

Like many have said the things that bug me most in help threads are rudeness/entitlement and lack of effort.

To be fair for a lot of people seeking help English is not their first language and tone and attitude don't always transfer well into text even for native speakers. Because of this I try to give people the benefit of the doubt.

For lack of effort I think it comes down to an expectation issue. A new person posting a question generally seems to expect that they're going to get a code snippet that they can just plug in and use as opposed to being presented with a concept. It always annoys me when I see people give good answers in the form of pseudo-code to demonstrate a concept and then 15 more posts because the OP thought they could just copy paste it in their game without understanding how it works.

That being said it certainly doesn't apply to everyone. I can't even count the number of times I've found extremely helpful information from old threads.

 

I always thought that saying "Hello" or "Hi" to the beginning of the thread was a good thing. Especially if it's the First Prev message posted on a forum.

 

The discussion has been civil up to this point, so let's not ruin the thread.

To get back on topic, @Teila do you think the forums are generally unhelpful? I think they are generally very helpful and if we disagree, it would be interesting to know why.

 

I love Unity's forums. I have learned a lot here just by digging so obviously, a lot of people to answer questions and do post responses. I am not a programmer so I rarely ask programming questions unless it is something I need to pass on to my programmers. They are not big into the forums so I often send them links. I also have access to a Unity Skype chat, a small group of us that came together from various places on these forums due to a common experience. So I ask them questions before I check the forums. I am sure they "love" that...being sarcastic here. They are a great group of guys and I share my discoveries with them as well, mostly TC or RTP stuff, now my forages into the Speedtree Modeler. I wouldn't be here without them.

Also, with the exception of just a few people, I find the people here interesting and generally thoughtful. Unfortunately, to someone just coming to the forums, those few may stand out more than the thousands of fine people. I don't mind when people disagree with me. It is when it gets personal that it bothers me. I know that I fail at times, but I am only human. Overall, this is a great place but I did have to prove myself to be accepted. That might be daunting to a young person but I have had to prove myself many times over again so I know the ropes.

 

Could have fooled me. But I see that your debating skills also include "No, you are" attacks in addition to outright lying. It might have come off as cute and cuddly in whatever communities you used to hang around in, but here it's looking rather juvenile.

I invite you again to take a break from trying to pass your rants and opinion pieces as useful contributions to the community and actually take a look at my posting history. I'm sure you'll find me rather helpful and civil if you were to look at it with an objective, mature pair of eyes. So your deflection and scapegoating theory is false, and you insisting on propagating it with backing it up is scapegoating and deflecting in and of itself.

Grow up and learn how to read and understand what was actually written instead of parroting what you want to hear. You really don't want to have yourself alienated from this community like the ones you went through before it.

Case in point: that mod thread you find so vindicating has absolutely zero relevance to the discussion at hand. But I see that you refuse to let actual content and reading comprehension get in the way of whatever opinion you're trying to pass as the one and only truth.

I hate to break it to you, but this "quoting" business is so often used in Internet discussions that all forum software has actual support for it. It actually helps elevate the discussion to be about the actual content (which is what I have been trying to do) rather than making it all about ad hominem attacks (which seems to be your preferred modus operandi). Or was quoting disallowed in the other communities that you have previously built?

I assure you that you're absolutely not. But forming a coherent, logical argument is.

And yet you find yourself qualified to tell those who are programmers and answer programming question how they should share their knowledge. You're quite generous with other people's time and expertise. But I guess that's one way how one can claim to be a community builder; by pontificating and taking credit for the work of others.

 

@Teila Have you considered the possibility of people being helpful and an asshole at the same time? It turns out that it's quite possible to be jaded and still help people.

 

What??? Are there assholes here on the Unity forums? I have not met any.

I have no doubt that anyone can and does answer questions if they feel so inclined, regardless of their assholery. But thanks for allowing me to use a bad word without feeling guilty about it.

 

@shaderop

It takes two to tango and working with the lowest common denominator isn't getting anyone anywhere. That being said, I agree with most of your points and to expand one of the biggest issues I've found is people who ask questions generally don't want to learn and are impatient.

Plus giving an answer generally doesn't really help either, a lot of problems stem from the journey not the destination. But when you try and teach about the journey and it takes longer than 15 minutes they lock up and aren't interested, thing is as soon as they embark on another adventure they'll hit the same issues because they didn't understand what it took to get to the finish line.

I can't instil 15 years of experience in someone in 15 minutes, it's impossible. So it makes it difficult to decide who you should be helping. Especially with games as I believe 95% of people who embark on the journey won't last a year.

 

When I was in school and had a problem with a home work assignment, my father would always give me something similar so I can then work out the answer for myself.
People are here to learn about creating a game. The issues they will face are incredible. If they can't do research or ask a question in a nice formatted way then just giving them the answer really isn't going to help them.
You have to at least attempt it yourself and fail before you are open to other people's ideas on what to do.
No one is going to hold your hand nor be there at every step of the way.
It is great to post a question that you are stuck on but also include that you tried this and that but still just not getting it. This shows people that you are willing to learn and not just looking for a free hand out.

 

The day will come when all the folks here making games to sell will have support forums on their websites. They will get lots of clueless customers who come there and ask stupid questions. If they are rude, they will get a reputation for being rude. I have seen asset developers get such comments in their reviews or on the forums. It will at least turn off a portion of the perspective customers. Yes, this is your game, your livelihood so you might be different there. But Unity is also someone's baby and someone's livelihood.

This is why the Unity mods are asking people to be nice to newcomers. These people buy stuff, asset store, services, etc. You will be in that place someday.

I have heard through the grapevine that the community at some other engines (those that shall not be named) are nice and helpful. Heard..meaning this is a perception. If the mods are worried about the way people are being treated and how this community is perceived, then it is enough to be noticed. Do we want Unity to lose those customers?

Ignore if you want but in my honest opinion, if you are going to give an answer than be nice about it. Encourage rather than discourage.

 

We can narrow that down very easily as we know that cannot possibly be Crytek's community.

 

I'll add that my own personal, anecdotal, not-backed-with-stats observation is that people who ask the most questions are the ones who are least likely to stick around. The higher their posts-per day count the more likely they are to vanish and never return within a couple of week to a couple of months. They come in, soak up all the bandwidth and clog the forums, and them move on without contributing anything back.

There's no going around the fact that people who are the most capable of helping are also the ones who stand to lose the most by helping. They stand to lose precious leisure time, time they could have spent working on their own projects, or time they could have spent on billable hours. I appreciate the OP's attempt at paying it forward, but I suspect that he or she are grossly overestimating the usefulness of their contributions and the value of "feeling good" for those who have more skin in the game.

 

oh there is nothing wrong with helping out. It is needed cause everyone will need help at one point.
The issue is that people just want to get an answer right then and there. We have seen it. People bumping it like every 20 minutes thinking people sit on the forums just waiting to answer people.
At least give it a try yourself. Life is full of trial and error. Just ask my x-wife.

 

@Teila

But that's not were talking about in this thread, you should of course be respectful to everyone. But this is about going out of your way, taking your time to help people who ask for help but sometimes don't want it.

When you sell a game, you're earning profit. It's not really out of the goodness of your heart to support your paying customers, I've spent many hours out of kindness helping people free of charge for it just to get thrown back at me. It's hard not to be a little jaded by the experience.

If someone seriously does need my help, I rarely say no (if ever). But It's rare now I'll specifically go out of my way to assist anyone and it's for many reasons nothing personal. Some times I really just don't have the time..

Like I ask Hippocoder a lot of stuff, he's been using Unity far longer than I have and also been developing games longer than I have. I try to help him when I can also.. But I also have a lot of respect for the man, I know I like to poke fun at his expense on the forums. But the guy is seasoned and very good at what he does, we all need help at some point but it has to be beneficial.

 

Ahh, I get it. I got lost in all the posts about how "most" or "75%" of the questions were bad, stupid, lazy, etc.

Yeah, I agree with you. No one has to go out of their way to help anyone. It is a choice and if it is not a choice, it is meaningless. Which is why I said somewhere above that it is better to ignore a post than post something rude. I would much rather someone ignore mine that tell me how stupid/lazy/foolish I am. I can find that out myself.

I never meant to advocate that people go out of the way if they are not so inclined. I think my point was that if you are going to respond, don't prejudge the person. And that comes to your comment..how do you know they don't want it? I get that after a few encounters you might know this or even in the thread that might become apparent. But what is the magic trick that lets one tell from one question that the person really doesn't want help? I don't mean the obvious ones...like give me some script, make me a game, tell me what assets to buy...those drive me nuts too.

 

That's the problem, how do you know? Which I think many have already expressed, at least show what you've tried and format the question as detailed as possible so we can figure out your train of thought and assist.

Not I want a script that does X, how do you do this? That pretty much equates to, I don't want to try this myself would someone write it for me. Even if you do, sometimes they don't like the way "you've" done it.

A lot of times I can't be bothered to write scripts, so I just buy them. I get that, but I don't expect people to take their time out to do it for me for free.

 

Nope, I get that.

 

I agree that snarky comments when someone asks a question doesn't help, but it's the internet and a lot of people derive joy out of sniping at each other whereas they would keep their mouth shut in real life. (I'm not pristine in this category myself either) Really we should just help if we feel like it and keep our mouth shut otherwise...but....the internet...ahhhhhh

 

Then there are some of us that are just as direct and snarky in real life.

 

This is the entirety of the paragraph that you quoted AcidArrow. Please don't pick and choose. Yes, I know now that I did not write it very well but at the time I was exhausted from work and on break between shifts. I wanted to get as much done on my game as I could that day; and so that post was written rather hastily. Let me clarify what I was trying to say in that particular paragraph.

When I play a new game sometimes not all the features are obvious as to how they work. So I ask someone, and they tell me to "google it". That may take me a few minutes to alt-tab, read up on it, and be back in the game helping my team. Yes I meant that entire thing in the context of a gaming session but extrapolated it as an example. When I said it would take them 30 seconds (or less) to type (or respond via VOIP) a response I meant that would save us both time and effort!


Clearly the other player took the time to elicit a response. That person could have easily typed an answer to my question just as easily. There is a willingness to respond; yet no willingness to actually answer the question! Instead of my wasting a great deal longer amount of time, and break the play session just to get a friggin' answer because someone wanted to be a jackass telling me to "google it" instead of responding with a quick answer!

That's really what this entire thread is about. "Are you lazy, selfish, or mean enough to withold help because you've lumped "everyone else but me" in to a group of lazy people who don't want to help themselves, or not?" I admit I have not done a good job at preventing some from thinking ill of me because of some not very well put together statements, yet maybe I shouldn't have too (meaning this ought to be a civil forum).

Yep. That's pretty rude (and antagonistic). I have no problem with people posting their comments to a discussion, however when they are impolite to say the very least, it tries my patience. It really does. That's what has made me shy away from online message boards for ages. I'm sure not many would care if I never posted again. That's fine; I don't expect everyone to. I just stopped reading after that point.

I'm just being honest, and trying to keep the peace, a really difficult position to be in. -.-

Also:

This, this, this, and definitely this!!

 

Hey @Braineeee. I don't see how the full paragraph changes anything, so I don't get the picking and choosing thing. But anyway.

I tried to make it clear (that's why I apologized upfront) that, that's how it comes off to me (I could have probably done a better jonb. And that probably says more about me than you. (Because clearly with your explanation now, we had completely different context in mind).

It wasn't supposed to be personal, it was a starting point to say some things I wanted to say. Now that I re-read it, I can clearly see I failed to make it appear so. So I'm sorry.

 

I think it appeared that the quote was taken out of context by leaving off the reference to a game he was playing. We all make mistakes and quoting in replies makes it so easy to leave off things that we see as irrelevant but the poster put them in for a reason. It is so very common and usually is not intended to hurt anyone. But it does show how careful we need to be.

The internet makes it so hard to read people, and instead read between the lines. One person might appear to be upset when really they are just explaining or debating. Another might seem defensive when they are not feeling that way at all.

A very good reason to be careful how one responds to questions on the internet, if one does at all. When I am tired, haven't had my coffee, or have a migraine as I do at this very moment, we can so easily make a mistake.

 

So putting aside the question of "should you help someone", the more interesting question seems to be "how should you help someone".

On this I'm definitely in the 'teach man to fish'. I think links to documentation, key words to Google, and general programming concepts are far more useful then straight out scripts. Occasionally a straight out script is justified, but not always. In the general case I think showing the questioner where and how to answer the question on there own is a valid and useful technique.

 

I agree with 'teach a man to fish'. However I'd just add that you are (probably) better off explaining the concept yourself in the reply (even if it's mostly quotes from a source), than linking to docs etc on it's own.
I think people might perceive just posting a link to docs as an act of "you figure it out, here's a clue", which should not be the intention.
We should be helping people by explaining how learning about a specific concept or piece of functionality will help solve their problem.

- Don't give a direct solution, but don't just give a link to some general concept either.
- Explain, even if briefly, how learning said concept will help them fix their issue.
- Then link to the concept, optionally adding how they may choose to implement it in their case (note, not writing a script for them, just explaining, nudging in the right direction).

That, is how I would ideally answer all programming questions. It doesn't always end up that way due to context or specifics of the questions, but as long as the intention is correct, I see that being the best way to help in the long term.

My thoughts on the subject.

 

Absolutely! One of the best responses I have seen here. I think this could expand beyond programming questions since we also see questions about design, art pipelines, asset, etc.

Not everyone has the time or inclination to do this though but I think there are enough people that can and will. Not only will this help this person, but it will help 10x as many people who read the forums and see the response.

 

Thank you Acid Arrow! I'm sorry if I overreacted too, I'm not a big fan of conflict. Its been a really tough week anyway...