Music!

Hello folks,

Back to game Unity game business.
It's a pity that there's no music forum, as music is KEY to success for a game. Do you agree?
Anyway, I've just uploaded an epic composition (orchestral) useful for an OP or something similar at a low price, it feels good to be back in business. How many other great artists are here? Musically oriented.

I'd love to talk with them about game music. And with all the community of course.

Maybe I'm sleepy (too early here), but if there's no forum for music, could you (Unity awesome team) please add one?

Warm regards,
Engeltone (aka zetaF)

 

I mean, there's no forum for "Writing" either.

And in either case I'd say that the related component can be important to the success of a game (and writing far more so than music in any case, as much as I enjoy Keiichi Okabe and any Sonic soundtrack ever). There are plenty of games successful with little of value in either area.

I've written somewhere between 100-200 songs, so I guess you could call me "musically oriented" (unrelated to game music in any way, however, and I've done nothing whatsoever with them).

That said - you haven't introduced a topic of discussion. What do you want to talk about?

 

Nope.

 

It is responsible for significant chunk of the experience, though. In some cases, up to half of it.

Spoiler

 

People barely talk about game design in the game design forum and you think that a music forum is a good idea?

If you want to talk about music, game or otherwise, there are loads of composer forums and classified sites online, but the Unity Forums aren't going to get any amount of traction for that.

 

Let unity forums decide that.

And yeah, it is a good idea, as music can make a mediocre game feel amazing.

 

I'm not sure I'd agree that the music is "up to half" the experience in Automata (I say that having just listened to the full soundtrack after seeing this thread), but I'll take the opportunity to post a different example of music that is A) fabulous, and B) part of the narrative (and C, weird AF).

Spoiler

 

Basically, you have to play the game to get it. It is really a half. The game itself would be fairly mediocre, partly because it is made on a shoestring budget. Would be, without musical part.

The theme I posted is strongly tied to the game plot, and has significant impact when it appears. Without playing, without talking to specific character, without seeing a certain picture, impact is not the same. Likewise, if there was no this theme, impact of the scene wouldn't be the same either.

For a more classic music, there's, for example, this:

Spoiler

How's that for a final boss?

 

I played it. I enjoyed it all. Definitely agree that it elevates the experience. Certain moments like the machine village, BECOME AS GODS, and the real ending are very well intertwined with the music. But without the Yoko Taro story and Platinum gameplay you've just got good music. Imagine a Sonic game without the fanbase.

 

True, elements fit together, that's why it is great. Take one element, and it will get worse.

Can't comment on a Sonic game. Somehow I never really played those much.

 

We also don't have a forum for 3D models or sprites, which are also a huge part of games. We don't have a sound design forum either, which is up there with music as far as the audio experience goes in games. I can't see a reasonable argument for something like music, which is an entirely different discipline to gamedev working, when there are not only dedicated forums to musicians all over the internet, but also more game related ones like the tigsource audio forums.

There's a point where there are plenty of disciplines that are involved in game development that do not intersect well with what the Unity forums are for.

 

There's 2d forum, graphics forum, audio and video, animation forum and external tools, though.
Oh, and General Discussion.

Unity can also introduce new forums later.

The way I see it, you aren't a forum emperor, and it is not up to you to decide what people should be discussing. Moderators are doing that. You can report topics and walk by those you're not interested in. Trying to discourage people from discussing a specific topic is not the way to do it, in my opinion.

Also, also, are you doing alright? You've been acting a bit more aggressive than usual in a last few months.

 

Sonic games typically have great music but hit-or-miss gameplay and stories. The weird fanbase means these games still sell well, but without the character they wouldn't (regardless of the music).

 

All of these forums are specifically about the technical aspect of these tools as they are used in Unity.

Adding my input is not being forum emperor.

 

"And you think it is a good idea?" is being a forum emperor, as you single-handedly decide which topic is appropriate for the forum, act dismissive towards the one you deem unworthy, and act as if you have authority to make the decision in the first place, and then continue arguing about that.

This kind of thing was incredibly popular on stackoverflow, which is the reason why I'm no longer participating there.

I would prefer not to see toxicity here, and I'd prefer this forum not deteriorate into some unusable nonsense. So it would be best to act friendly or not to post anything, in my opinion.

 

Honestly, I'm not trying to be an emperor or anything, but i don't see the sea of music-related topics/discussion either, and that small amount of it easily can fit in the Audio forum. Opening new topics should be warranted if people actually is talking about something but there is no dedicated place for it.

 

It's me going "what part of this is even worth considering when these forums are entirely technical aspect based?"

Here's the thing.

The Unity forums have always been hot garbage when it comes to the creative aspects of gamedev. Always. The only place where this deviates is the Game Design forum, which is buried all the way at the bottom of the forum listing and averages maybe 8 posts a day when busy. The forums you listed are all about the technical aspects of production and, if there was going to be a technical aspect of music production, it would end up being rolled into the audio forum.

When it comes to anything creative, there's a reason I direct people to tigsource: it's because it's a largely technical agnostic forum, so conversations about design (as in the relationship between the player and game) can exist without being lumped in with a bunch of posts about code architecture. It's like how I direct people to GamedevClassifieds on reddit because there's no place offered by Unity to do job offers other than the similarly neglected Connect.

The reason this is is because these forums were built with the idea of technical aspects of game development when they were opened and there hasn't really been any attempt to change this on the part of the Unity staff whatsoever. The addition of the game design forum came after months of petitioning for it and it's basically a wasteland if you consider the traffic there relative to anywhere else on the forums. The ongoing focus of these forums on technical details is why I think there's no point in just adding a music forum, especially when the only other creative forum languishes.

The real kicker is that the thing that I'm "aggressive" about is this attitude toward game development that the forums have taken. It's the reason I only post in General Discussion anymore unless I'm having a technical issue because there's no point in talking about it anywhere on these forums, so I just stick around here while my project is building. It's the reason I've been an active tigsource member for years but don't bother talking about what I'm working on here.

A music forum adds nothing to a forum where anything but technical discussion is squashed outside of Feedback Friday.

 

Just a random thought on the subject, but nearly all the game music I remember fondly is from 80s/90s gaming.
That may just be because I'm getting old, but there was something very special about it. I think the tech of the day just gave it a very distinctive sound and there was some incredibly talented people doing clever things with very little to play with.
Obviously games aren't technically limited in the same way anymore so game music is different now, although some type of games still suit the retro sound really well, and I still love listening to old game soundtracks on occasion.

I do wonder if the kids of today will remember game soundtracks in quite the same way as the 30 and 40 somethings do with the games of their youth.​

 

Yes. That's the part where you're trying to be a forum emperor.

That's your opinion.

 

You see that in movies too. It has nothing to do with the tech limitations they had back then, at least not directly. With the limited sound palette they were forced to focus on the melodies, and good melodies are memorable. Todays soundtracks are on average much more focused on the sound, rythm and overall vibe, and have less memorable melodies, often much less complex from a musical perspective. Here's a good video related to this:

And here's something less depressing:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeZLO2VgbZHeDcongKzzfOw/videos

 

Just keep discussing music in General or other barely related forums. If enough music discussion keeps happening, you'll see a music specific forum appear. If there isn't much actual discussion happening, then the topic doesn't need its own forum.

 

I think the technical limitations are a crucial factor, but you make a good point about pricisely why the old tracks are memorable, regarding the enforced focus on melody.
The late 90s suddenly saw developers with CDs to fill up and no idea what to do with it. So they filled it with horrible live action sequences or paid pop stars to have their tracks in their games.
There just inevitably became less of a need to pay a talented game composer to write a catchy ditty!

 

There was never a need. As mentioned already, many, many popular games don't focus on music at all.

I'm curious what games or series' from back then you think focused on music? Because off the top of my head I can think of several (Sonic, Yoko Taro's stuff, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest - there are undoubtedly more I'm not aware of) where it's, today, a big focus - not just for one game, but for entire series...es.

 

Music is so important. I spend weeks trawling the internet for the perfect 5-10 royalty free tracks to use in my games. With crap music or even good music that misses the mark emotionally or in tempo and tone you greatly hurt your overall game feel.

sadly music and sound are greatly overlooked in games, they’re usually last minute things and as such have limited time and budget to get them right.

i think there are many sound and music techniques that never get discussed and as developers we constantly have to reinvent the wheel to make things sound good. If there was a repository somewhere of some cool techniques to implement various audio effects, music and ambiance with minimal impact on app size and cpu usage i think that could be really helpful

 

We add new forums/sub-forums when there is either an overwhelming amount of discussion that it is warranted , or there is a specific feature/tool/element/preview of Unity itself that helps users and developers connect and discuss. Since this is really the first topic I have seen on music in a very, very long time, and that, in fact, the topic is basically "why isn't there any discussion on music here", it should be pretty clear that a music sub-forum isn't on the agenda. And if we were use popularity only as factor... the likely next new forum would "Will this laptop/computer work for Unity?"

----

On the topic... while I appreciate good audio in a game, it's really not a huge deal for me, sound design, yea, for sure. I mostly develop and play mobile games, so mostly always muted. And with rare exception (vr and a few story driven games) I usually play simulator/puzzle games, which I mostly turn off the music and listen to books/podcasts. But that's just me.

 

you’re denying yourself And your brain that extra dopamine hit that would really make you enjoy those games!

 

Oh, i do enjoy those games, very much. But I can enjoy them and listen to a book at same time. Really, how much better can a game like Satisfactory get, if you are playing it while Wil Wheaton is reading the latest Scalzi book to you?

 

Sastisfactory has some awful soundtrack selection. The ambient is okay, but there's that insanely annoying track that periodically appears (A G G A G G E C - apparently it is called "Early Development?") and can get on my nerves easily.

I'd prefer something heavier than that.

Spoiler

Also, I'd say that if player's attention is not fully focused on the game, the games has a problem. Unless it is an idler.

 

Music is not just very important for games in general, but especially so for indies who are faced with huge expenses when trying other ways to make a game immersive, such as voice acting and expensive custom art and styling. The right music choices are a storytelling mechanic in themselves, and music requires an incredibly small amount of handiwork from the developer to fit in (though good music is of course hard to make).

I remember in the GDC talk from the Mass Effect 2 devs, they were able to prototype 'whitebox' levels made of basically untextured cubes, but found it necessary to add music even at the earliest stages before they were able to tell if the level was really going to work.

 

everything comes together in end product.

 

Do you have an example of a good gamedesign thread to sell us on tigsource? I've gone there a couple times and took a very brief look, but never found anything that made me want to stay.

 

The trouble with design a d music discussion is that it’s subjective and also requires all people to be interested and devoted to the particular discussion. I find design and music discussions are really only productive with team members as they are the only people with the in-depth knowledge and buy-in to the particular concept they are trying to convey.

this is why tech discussions and tech art are so easy to build a forum around. The answers are generally universally applicable to any concept or style or design... but design, music, art style are all too specific and integrated into individual projects.

i do however think there is room for a forum to discuss audio techniques as i learn a lot every time i work directly with professional audio designers. Layering loops and repeating random sounds to break up loops etc, it’s simple but not something you immediately think to do.

 

I’m not really sure how you’ve interpreted my comments as a statement that every game has a need for music, that wasn’t what I was saying at all.

My comments were just to explore the differences between two eras of music in games, and how that affected the music in the games, and how we remember it years later.

In the 80s and early 90s there was an obvious distinction between game music and other music, because of the technology at the time. It sounded different. If you wanted music in the game you had to program it, it wasn’t a recording. This lead to a distinctive style, which was driven by catchy melodies, and became a genre of music in itself.

We now live in an era where game music can sound just like a film score, or sports games can throw money at famous artists to have a playlist of recognisable tracks on their game. So modern games aren't restricted musically in the same way older games were.

I agree with what most others have said about its importance. It’s perfectly possible to have a good game without music, but we all know that if you want to set a mood or invoke certain feelings, it can be a very powerful way of achieving that and can stay with people for a very long time.
So it can be a very important part of an overall experience. Definitely some modern games are aware of that too, some even provide their soundtracks for download separately.

 

Very very rarely. Generally, I'd rather have good sound design and minimal music. The Silent Hill piece above could have done without the somewhat cliched organ, for example, the atonal elements were enough.

 

Never heard of it, it sounds incredible. Im sure that's going to be a revelation to all of the composers and musicians here.

So what does the C mean and why is it major? Is that because its got a high rank? What sort of a music suite do I need to use this C major?

 

That sounds useful. I wouldn't want my notes to be sharp or flat when I sign them.

what sort of notes does that have?

yes, which music sweets should I use?

 

This is starting to sound complicated, could you explain what crochet and semibreathes are?

Its okay, Im quite happy asking here, it makes the thread useful. So what kind of things can I borrow from these 'sound' libraries? Do they have the right signatures, like crochets and semibreathes and captain C?

I have heard there is something called 'MIDDLI' which is like a way to make notes and things. Can I use the MIDDLI with this something called 'reaper'.

 

No, Im sure its fine.

 

Yes, please! I'm benefiting a great deal by being witness to this discussion! I beg the moderators not to close this thread!
I wanna hear more about General C! And Reaper sounds badass too...

 

unit_dev123 why have you deleted all your helpful posts before i could understand how to use the signatures and notes?

 

Hello unit-dev123? I cant work out how to use Major C's signature in Reaper. Where does it go?
I cant see anything in the Project Settings, but I can see a thing that says 4/4 near something called RPM, which is 120, does it go near there? What is the RPM for?

 

Only 120 RPM? That doesn't seem right. This Reaper can do 1800 RPM:
https://perfectdark.fandom.com/wiki/Reaper

Not sure if they're all C's though...

 

The Final Boss fight? Nah. It couldn't be. This is the only piece in the whole game like that.

He is posting incorrect information again. Honestly, he shoudl be renamed into M'aiq at this point.

C major, while having no key signatures, is part of classical harmony, still allows As (and I think Fis), and is not suited for atonal music. 4/4 signature is nothing special and is used for every pop song in existence. What's more the whole point of major/minor key is that major sounds "happy" and "minor" sounds sad, and C-major is a "happy" key. It is also least interesting one.

(I'm classically trained musician, used to study music for something in ballpark of 10..15 years).

 

Music can be discussed in this way:

* What emotion/image do you want it to convey?
* What style should it be in? (There's a difference between fugue and industrial, for example).
* What should it resemble?

Great deal can learned from this point.

-------

RPM stands for revolutions per minute. Music normally uses Beats per Minute. BPM. I've never heard of RPM being using in conjuntion with music, aside from vinyl players. (there were 33 and 72 rpm recordings).

Slow piece go at 60 to 72 BPM, medium piece go up to 120, fast can go to 240. Even in fast piece there can be multiple notes per beat. Number of beats per bar is Meter, and it affects rhytmic structure of the music. 4/4 is the most common, but not very interesting on its own.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metre_(music)

 

You know they were being sarcastic, right?

 

No. Haven't noticed that.

 

Did I just get wooooshed?

Anyway. Music! I haven't actually played Nier (though I read a walkthough), but one musical element I've heard about is the vocals for a track only "appearing" when you're near a tavern where a female character is singing. That's a neat touch. Automata had a similar idea going with the menus (which amped up the reverb in the soundtrack).

How would you do those kinds of things in Unity? With something like NAudio you could make a mixer and add in a source (or fx) at will, but does Unity's audio system itself support that?

 

I was still contemplating whether or not I should bring the tribble clef up:

Was that irony as well? I can't tell anymore, we're in too deep!

Back when I was looking for it I didn't even find a way to use impulse responses for convolution reverbs inside Unity. You could do a lot with those if that was possible. Maybe even interpolate between different ones to make smoother zone transitions?

 

Uhh.... that's dynamic/adaptive music. FMOD has tutorial on that.

Basically, you create baseline score, and multiple optional tracks for it which can fade in/fade out based on external condition without stopping the music. This is also likely to be a royal pain to debug.

It should be possible to jury rig something comparable with unity mixer, but this kind of stuff is why your sound guy will probably want FMod if they can get it.

 

If it was I was completely fooled. Ya know I take great umbrage if y'all are trying to reverse troll me.

This one's for you Martin, I think you'll like it.

Spoiler