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Mods: Stop the bullying!

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by wccrawford, Jan 3, 2012.

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  1. justinlloyd

    justinlloyd

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    Many of us have adopted the "New to Unity, please read this" signature which is helping to a degree. I am not for more moderation. And I am not for more forum specialisation at this time.

    Perhaps we, as the Unity forum community, should make a concerted effort to draft up a short, concise "look, we see these threads about five times per week, we really are excited for your passion to create the next MMOFPSRPG but to get the best response possible, and because you are a new forum member, we're all a little skeptical, so this is what we recommend you do."

    Or words to that effect, something we all agree (collaborative post creation) on. We adopt it as a cut paste response that every responsible forum community member will use whenever one of these threads pops up. When the thread continues to devolve due to "STFU! just join my teamz and gif me your leet coding skillz so I can micro-manage you" or "i dun want links, i wont you to carefully explain every detail to me on the forum" from the OP, we just cut paste that standard response again. Once the OP actually has a sane post and a reasonable question, we can respond to that instead.

    Educate the enemy, but don't engage them on their level.

    I know that a few forum community members have already moved down a similar path with the "Do you have a GDD? What are your skills? What will you be doing?" posts and I applaud those first tentative steps. Unfortunately it is usually met with "STFU! TL;DR. just wont source codes from 300 scripters and modelers for my leet mmo"

    Perhaps it is time, we, as a forum community, began to codify these appropriate, easy to digest responses so that we all adopt them and make a concerted effort to push them in to the forum threads that are causing the issues, and do it for the protection of the community as it is today and to let it grow in size and maturity in the future. Otherwise, get used to it, because as Unity grows in popularity, so too will the MMO threads, or whatever the next new thing is.
     
  2. Jingle-Fett

    Jingle-Fett

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    I fully agree with you however, it seems to create a bit of a circular problem. By posting such a topic, the MMO wanabes are basically asking for criticism because there are people around here who do this stuff for a living. Said people will give really good advice (Like NPSF3000 gave in that one thread). These people are giving them their hard-earned experience for free, stuff which the kids might otherwise have to pay tons money or spend years to learn.

    But the wanabes get offended or upset because they're "bullying", which leads to flamewar. So these knowledgeable people ignore the threads, so as to not say anything bad. But then we get the problem Eric5h5 mentioned, which is that they start bumping the thread until they get attention. Which leads right back to where we started. If the project is doomed to like most wanabe posts and they keep bumping because nobody is replying...well what can anyone say to them, outside of advice? If they're told to do XYZ to be taken seriously and they refuse to do it, that's kind of on them....

    With some of these wanabes, it's like talking to a wall; no matter what you say to help them and to show them what to do so they can succeed, they'll not only ignore you, but have the gall to think you're bullying them. Which can only mean that some of these just think they're special or something. In that case, they'll need to learn sooner or later that they're not special, that they're like everyone else and are surrounded by people who know a lot more than they do. Other forums will be a lot harsher. And if they tried pulling that in real life, they'd be laughed at just as much, if not worse. The problem isn't so much that they're making the MMO threads so much as their refusal to listen to other people.
     
  3. andorov

    andorov

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    The XNA people actually closed down their collab forum because of the stupidity exhibited there. :x
     
  4. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    I've seen you be very sensitive about how people treat each other. I think this works for you, however, your way of life and seeing things is also a negative when taken to an extreme. For example, there is such a thing as protecting an idiot, which can happen. The idiot is an idiot because he's so far ran unchecked through life, able to say and do what he wants. See Tottenham riots for an example of what occurs, where people feel so entitled they can smash all the shops to pieces and take what they want, and not fear any sort of repercussion. None of the person's family were actually present at the riots. It was all an excuse to just do whatever they pleased.

    Implying that I can't call someone a wannabe without fear of being labeled a bully is absurd to the extreme. What is next? I can't say what I want to say at all? There are limits and I think you are bordering on extremism.

    I have a way of dealing with it: if someone is acting like an idiot I will go ahead and tell them they are behaving like an idiot. That in my personal rulebook isn't bullying. Calling someone a wannabe when they are trying to learn is out of order - I would never do it. Calling someone a wannabe when they're shooting off at the mouth and pretending to be gods gift to game development while having released nothing, well I'd say that's a wannabe.

    I guess being brutally honest can help as much as protecting someone from bullying, but neither must be taken to the extreme in my view.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2012
  5. justinlloyd

    justinlloyd

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    Now you have gotten me curious about those reasons.



    I can be very caustic at times. Many forum members will attest to this. I can also be very helpful. Many forum members will attest to this too. I will really go out of my way to help someone who is genuinely trying, and follow-up to make sure they are moving along with their little project.** I will also go out of my way to make someone miserable if I think they are acting entitled or wantonly ignoring the advice of the more seasoned professionals who are actually out there in the trenches doing it for a living, e.g. Hippocoder, dreamora, Erc5h5, etc. It is just the way that I am. It seems to work for me, it may not work for you. It is not bullying, it is a very harsh reality check for most people who have not yet even come close to interacting with reality in any meaningful way. If they cannot take kind of feedback, god forbid they should ever get someone on their team that will actively work against them to take it away from them.

    If you think the collaboration section of this forum is full of "bullying" you should hang out on two of the business forums I am a member of. One is populated by many mulch-billionaire VCs and investors who aren't known for pulling their punches. The other is full of seasoned entrepreneurs, who are renowned for the hyperbole they spin in the press about their latest venture, who regularly have to take a new member to task over the "I'm fricking awesome and you're all wrong and I need twenty people to work for me for free to build this website that'll make me rich and I might give you a few points if you are really nice to me" posts they will often make.

    ** I rarely hear back after the initial help. If I did it "for the thanks" then I'd be a poor man in the "thankyous" dept.
     
  6. andorov

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  7. CharlieSamways

    CharlieSamways

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    Key.

    Soon as you have one you become a decent developer. Mine was eventful :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2012
  8. rab236

    rab236

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    I don't think there's bullying. I think there are a bunch of forum users who are sick of MMO threads and "Make mah game for me" threads. As andorov said, the posts need to be approved by a moderator at the forums he posted. Maybe the posts in Collaboration should have to be approved before being posted, like above. Another idea is a required number of posts to post there.That may cause junk posts just to drive up the post count so a thanked post system may also come in handy, and the user must have a certain amount of thanks to post in collaboration.
     
  9. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Thumbs up for the collab section being put into a moderator queue. If it is idiotic and pointless it is rejected. If it shows artwork, effort or any sign of life upstairs in the brain department, then it gets approved.
     
  10. Starsman Games

    Starsman Games

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    I got to admit, MMOs are not my "favorite" collaboration type of threads. My favorites are the ones that go like this:

     
  11. TylerPerry

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    You forgot the catering sevice :D
     
  12. Starsman Games

    Starsman Games

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    That position is already taken by "Mrs Moathar"
     
  13. _Petroz

    _Petroz

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    This sounds like the best way to go.
     
  14. Davidovich

    Davidovich

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    Big +1 for this:

    There's already this thread but it's a bit long and convoluted and most people don't refer to it.

    The most important thing with this discussion isn't whether any single person is offended, but how the style of the colab forum shapes the community and what the community wants the colab forum to be.

    To illustrate a point: I'm quite new to Unity, but I've been a software engineer for 6 years, so I'm not the noobiest noob in noobsville. After playing around and getting my bearings with the engine, I went to hit up the colab forum to find something to cut my teeth on and discovered two things: 1) the Unity community are a bunch of arseholes 2) the colab forum is full of crap.

    On the first point: I've since noted that this isn't because any single person is an arsehole. No single person is bullying or even being unreasonable. But for every moronic OP there are a whole raft of people jumping in and telling them the same thing with different levels of eloquence and profanity. When you say something and 10 people yell back at you it's hard not to be a little defensive. Yes, being told what the problems are with your project is useful. Yes, people need to learn that recruitment along the lines of "I have a great idea and nothing else" is stupid. Where it becomes harmful is when 10 people all pile on with the same attacks and then the topic turns into a flame war. This clutters the forums and doesn't help. Noobs who post stupid things need a slap on the wrist, shown how to behave and ignored until they behave properly, not have the entire community shout them down.

    For the second point: I think it comes down to what the community wants from the collaboration forum. If all people want is to have a place to exert their dominance and get their lols then it's all good. If it's meant to actually be a place where people can find projects they might like to collaborate on, then it needs work.

    As Unity gains popularity there will be more and more zero-experience MMOFPSRPGBBQ pipe-dreams posted in the colab forum and a way of managing it is needed. Implementing and enforcing posting guidelines (at least for OPs) is a good first step. If there's an OP with insufficient information, or for a stupid project then the first reply should be a standardised, polite "Please read this and try again". That plus no interest will stop a bunch of people from spamming further. If the OP insists on whining about unhelpfulness or bumping then they need to be pointed again to how they should behave. Eventually almost everyone will get the idea or get bored of trying.

    Moderator approval could be good too, but it puts a bigger strain on the mods, whereas if there's a public "Please make your posts like this" then it will help spread that practice through everyone posting in that forum.

    Anyway, just my impressions based on a month or two here.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2012
  15. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Well if you're asking what users would like collab to be, here's mine: I'd like to see a robust paid collaboration section where you can reliably look for talented people.

    I'd love to actually collaborate, but unity forums are the absolute last place I'd ever, ever go to for it based on the junk and sheer stupidity present in the collab forum right now. I simply wouldn't trust anyone there to touch something I'm paying for.

    Instead I am quietly just forming opinions, so when the time comes, I'll have a look around and just contact them myself. I can't see how advertising then getting 20+ replies from trolls being at all useful time spent.
     
  16. TylerPerry

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    I think if you wanto colaborate then if you post all you need and such then it would be fine....it is realy is not that hart to move you finger on a scroll wheal to skip trolls :D or if there are people impiticuler you wanto colab with you could aproch them, the worst thing that could happen is they say "No" wich isent realy that bad.

    Oh somehow i skiped the last part of your post and missed that you said that you aproch them.

    You can just pay them once there done? if they dont do it just dont pay them. keep bacups so they cant break anything and eather only let them look at parts of the project or jmake a contract of interlectual property of the game/app
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2012
  17. justinlloyd

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    You can ignore posts from specific users. I would love two more features for the Unity forums:
    1. Unsubscribe from this forum section so that it never shows up again in the feeds, the "new posts" search, or when just browsing the forums. The forum section just simply does not exist for you.
    2. Ignore any thread started by this particular person. We have ignore posts by this person, I would love "ignore any threads started by this person" so that the entire thread disappears.

    Two fixes that I think would go a long way to helping. The collaboration forum still exists for those that want it, the rest of us who don't care for it can turn it off -- and anyone who starts those stupid "Help!" "Help me!" "Need help naow!" threads in the rest of the forum. None of it affects your "right" to post nonsense, it just affects my "right" to not have to see it in the feed or the update page.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2012
  18. CharlieSamways

    CharlieSamways

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    *points to self* PIXEL ART ;D
     
  19. Adam-Buckner

    Adam-Buckner

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    Davidovich:

    Thanks very much for your first post.

    Justin Lloyd:

    I think your suggestion is very prescient. Perhaps a locked sticky that people can refer to and/or post a link to when they see an OP's thread that needs it.

    There are a lot of smart and savvy people commenting on this thread. Let's turn this energy into smart and savvy games. Let each person find their own way to make them and let them discover whether they are capable or not.

    Has this thread run its course?
     
  20. CharlieSamways

    CharlieSamways

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    Yes, send it to the abyss!
     
  21. TylerPerry

    TylerPerry

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    Nooo the forums are how i waste my time :( i cant think of what else to do right now im sitting hear board as :( You cant stop this thread :D
     
  22. Games-Foundry

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    The problem imho is lack of experience and simple common courtesy by the OP (of threads that get flamed). Professionals new to the Unity scene are likely to first evaluate the tool to establish that it is fit for purpose. Once feasibility is established, if they want to recruit for a project, they are wise enough to realise they have to put in some hours first to create a pitch to attract collaborators using the skills they have available. And finally, to minimize the risk of ridicule, they will have familiarized themselves with the forum by reading several pages of previous posts to see what works and what doesn't.

    Unfortunately most of the OP's that get flamed fail to demonstrate any of these steps, so a slap in the face is often a good thing, albeit with an explanation of why they are being slapped. Further, being flamed serves as an efficient time allocation mechanism. The OP's that we are complaining about are demonstrating an inability to communicate and lack of experience, which means they are probably unsuitable for a project lead role, and likely lead their project to failure. By killing the project before it even begins, saves everyone a heap of time. Those individuals who would be good leaders, are likely to knuckle down, take the advice, and actually put in some hours before returning to the collab forum.

    Having read the entire thread, I'd be pro a moderator queue. Any MMO type threads would be blocked, with a standard message prompting the OP to visit the various advice threads that already exist, and provide some suggestions to a minimum amount of effort required.
     
  23. TylerPerry

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    I was looking at your portfolio and why do you do your pixel art in photoshop instead of say MS paint? that is more fit for pixel art?
     
  24. CharlieSamways

    CharlieSamways

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    Any program is fine, im actually doing some right now in illustrator :) make yourself a grid and just use the square tool. its all personal preference
     
  25. justinlloyd

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    Lock the thread whenever you feel like. :) I think we are just spinning our wheels now. Let's resolve to actually do something about it by getting a short educational copy paste sticky we can at least refer to and get on the same page with rather than just rehashing the same stuff over and over again.
     
  26. n0mad

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    Guys ... This thread is all well constructed and all, and bravo for that ... but the problem is that those people you mention are not reading anything else but their own thread ...
    I'm feeling the only two solutions are either moderate, or ignore the whole Collab section.
     
  27. TylerPerry

    TylerPerry

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    I have te answer we all post this:

    Yo dwanng i hear you liek mmos so i put a mmo in you mmo so you can mmo whal ya mmo you know mmo?...... ok im trolling now :(
     
  28. rik338

    rik338

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    What about making a game? :D
     
  29. Adam-Buckner

    Adam-Buckner

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    It's been real. It's been fun.
     
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