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Mods: Stop the bullying!

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by wccrawford, Jan 3, 2012.

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  1. JRavey

    JRavey

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    It would certainly cut down on the silly collab threads.
     
  2. tatelax

    tatelax

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    There is no doubt about that. But everyone needs to start somewhere. Let's look at for example, Charlie Samways. I don't think he has Unity pro. But he has posted useful things in the collaboration section. And there are a lot of people like that. How about instead of requiring Unity pro, we require a certain length of time in the forums. You cannot join the forums, and then post a thread in the collaboration section, if you have been a member of the community for < a month.
     
  3. TehWut

    TehWut

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    n o t
    a g a i n

    /end

    Stop worrying about all the kids with dreams. You all know the ones who really want it will find their way into serious game development anyways. Nor do they realize that all the "mean" comments they get are only 1% as difficult as the game they are trying to make.
     
  4. LordJulian

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    I have to disagree with JRavey, that's too extreme

    Apart from the dirt in the gem, some players do make successful games our of the collaberation forum using Unity Free. Because some fool posted something stupid in the forums, doesnt mean everyone should be sanctioned from posting in it. Money does not depict a person's commitment or skill.

    Gods, this is becoming one of the old free vs pro threads again.
     
  5. JRavey

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    Calm down, it's not going to happen. The fact of the matter is the vast majority of Unity Free users are working on their own and being realistic with their expectations and spend more time trying to learn rather than trying to talk others into coding for them or teaching themselves (actually trying). The same can be said of Unity customers as well.
     
  6. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    if u wanns do it we cud splitz de profits! lol


    Btw charlie is an absolute berk on msn with me (but so am I) however on forums, he's very mature and I can see a great future for him :)
     
  7. CharlieSamways

    CharlieSamways

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    Thanks :) Don't really have a dream future in game design, I want to be an architect. this is just a good way to get cash :D hahah
     
  8. JRavey

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    Delivering quality art in a timely manner?

    BTW, why are you and Hippo up so late?
     
  9. CharlieSamways

    CharlieSamways

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    What do you mean?

    Im supposed to be out at college at 8:30, been trying to get to sleep but its 5am now so ive given up. ill just sit up and do some work :)
     
  10. JRavey

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    As a good way to get cash.
     
  11. CharlieSamways

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    Yeah, I try my best anyway. Ive led to releasing my own apps lately.
     
  12. justinlloyd

    justinlloyd

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    +1

    I absolutely agree with this post. I think every forum that you inhabit should do this. And as soon as the mods instigate such a decision, I shall mark this thread, and all of your posts as hurtful to me in same way.

    "You have the right to be offended, you do not have the right to stop me from being offensive." -- Me.
     
  13. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Working on the sexy new project! actually two sexy new projects. One of them is for Simian Squared, but in the evenings, I work on my own little project on the side which may be finished first. I've kept all the art to a bare minimum, and it's fun! god I need sleep.

    Re: trolling etc
    I can't see the internet as being important enough to cry over. But if you must cry, please youtube it and say "leave britney alone". Thanks!
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2012
  14. rik338

    rik338

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    Would be nice if an actual mod joined the conversation.
     
  15. Eric5h5

    Eric5h5

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    I'm just a volunteer mod and therefore none of this is even remotely "official", but my personal view is that "hurtful posts" is too subjective. We've had at least one person totally melt down over honest, friendly, helpful criticism, and I personally will never remove reasonable criticism that doesn't directly violate the rules about personal insults and so on (unless specifically directed to by the Powers That Be, of course ;) ). The issue I have with the "pie in the sky" collaboration threads is this: no non-critical replies are possible, so on those rare occasions when people restrain themselves and don't post anything, what we get from the OP is inevitably "bump bump bump bump still need 2000000000 people to join the team! bump bump bump bump bump bump bump!" Which to me is possibly even more annoying than the alternative. Apparently people tend not to learn much from resounding silence. So if people agree not to post anything in response to completely unrealistic collaboration threads, I want those people who start them to agree to never bump the thread. Let them sink without a trace, so that more practical collaboration efforts, where the OP actually brings something to the table, and that have a chance of resulting in an actual product (and there have been some of these), are more visible.

    --Eric
     
  16. TylerPerry

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    Maby Unity could make it so you cant post twice in a row in the colab forums :D becase if it was a good project people should post on it so it dosent drop of the face of the earth(or colab forums) :)
     
  17. taumel

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    I think the more you moderate, the less you're giving people a chance to learn from their actions and enhance their conflict abilities and evolve as persons, learn some tolerance or at least some new swearing. Afterall you often still learn a lot from mistakes. Secondly the opinions about what's good moderation are very subjective and therefore you're most probably exchanging one problem with another one. Thirdly moderating something in a tangible way also leads to this police state atmosphere which grows its own problems like being afraid to say something, breeding squealing slimy gits, ... and last but not least the mod needs to be super relaxed, experienced and wise, which they mostly aren't as well and i can't do everything.

    So, until things run out of control completely, the less moderation the better. Somehow this community was able to get things done mostly in a reasonable way on their own and things that heat up normally also cool down again.

    Typical overmoderation: Locking the amazing Iggy Pop's trouser thread.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2012
  18. n0mad

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    +1000.
    I don't feel it's the case in here, but in other different popular forums it's like majority of virulent people I read have a binary brain : If you're not with them, you're against them. There's no nuance. That's primitive as F***. Black or white, right or wrong, plus or minus, Good guy or bad guy ...
    If you want a perfect sample of this, just lurk into Star Wars : the Old Republic english forums for half an hour.

    Meanwhile, I honestly think Unity forums have the most open-minded discussions I can experience in a 2010ish forum. And I've lurked in a lot, lot of forums :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2012
  19. jc_lvngstn

    jc_lvngstn

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    Why not just create a few sub forums for the main game genres? Anyone who wants to talk about MMOS, or FPS, or RTS can just go there, and nobody can tell them NOT to. People who don't want to see those posts can just go elsewhere.
     
  20. JRavey

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    Excessive compartmentalization would lower the mean activity per section and clutter the forums' main screen.
     
  21. npsf3000

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    The problem is that the 'MMO' problem isn't a MMO problem - it's just the classic example.

    There are some perfectly legit collab MMO's [albeit rare] and there are games in other genre's e.g. FPS that suffer from the same crappy formula.
     
  22. Eric5h5

    Eric5h5

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    Yeah, there are already enough categories. Also, the more categories there are, the more you have people trying to post duplicate topics in multiple categories, which, of course, defeats the whole purpose of having categories in the first place.

    Well, that's already the case.

    --Eric
     
  23. tyoc213

    tyoc213

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    As a suguestion to the forum cross-topic publication, it should be possible to cross-post a topic but be redirected to the same topic, but that will require the forum software to change (so... I guess that is not possible).
     
  24. Thomas-Pasieka

    Thomas-Pasieka

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    It's really simple. You can choose to ignore all the "Need people for mmorpg" threads all together if you have no interest in such thing. People get annoyed because let's be honest, you can't resist to read the next thread about it just to get a chance to work yourself up over it. If you think about it, that is true in many cases. So those who cry "more moderation" please should perhaps take a step back and ignore such posts for a while. Don't read them. Use that time to be productive or have a tea/coffee instead and go on with life.

    Thomas P.
     
  25. npsf3000

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    I apparently have fallen foul of Amon:

    So it'll be interesting to see how the mods judge it. If I was trolling in anyway, shape or form I will more than happily have my posts removed. Then again I did think I was genuinely responding to the thread in a constructive manner.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2012
  26. PrimeDerektive

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    I don't get it... was he randomly using you as an example? It seems he deleted his post. He couldn't have been serious.
     
  27. Starsman Games

    Starsman Games

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  28. npsf3000

    npsf3000

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    It's still there, second from the bottom. [As per Tharsman - different thread]

    I thought I was using the thread as an example of constructive MMO talk... then I got ignored.

    I don't claim to be an Angel, so I render judgement to you. If I made a mistake, it's something I want to fix.
     
  29. hippocoder

    hippocoder

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    Err! Ok! I suggest anyone that does not want to read NPSF3000 posts in this thread, or in general anymore, do as I do and put this user on your ignore list.

    May I also ask the Mods to please remove his posts from this thread?







    * kidding.
     
  30. npsf3000

    npsf3000

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    My HEART!
     
  31. wccrawford

    wccrawford

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    You provided criticism, and not in a bullying manner. Whether it was helpful or not has to be judged by each person who reads it. Someone might very well find it so, and others might very well not.

    However, when you starting using the word 'wannabe', you stepped into bullying. I'm not even sure you meant to... It's technically possible to use that word without being negative, but I've never seen anyone do so.
     
  32. Starsman Games

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    I cant resist!!!! I have to sing!!!!



    The more you ignore me
    The closer I get
    You're wasting your time
    The more you ignore me
    The closer I get
    You're wasting y our time

    I will be
    In the thread
    With my head
    On the thread
    I am now
    A central part
    Of your mind's landscape
    Where you care
    Or do not
    Yea, I've made up your mind

    The more you ignore me
    The closer I get
    You're wasting y our time
    The more you ignore me
    The closer I get
    You're wasting y our time

    Beware
    I bear more flames
    Than lonley high school trolls
    When you post
    I will creep
    Into your threads
    Like a bad troll
    That you can't ignore
    Take the easy way
    And give in
    Yea, and let me in
    Oh, let me in
    Oh let me...
    Oh, let me in
    It's flame war
    It's flame war
    It's flame war
    It's flame war
    It's flame war
    Flame war
    Flame war
    Flame war
    Flame war
    Oh, let me in
    Ah, the closer I get
    A, you are asking for it
    Ah, the closer I get
    Oh, the closer I....
     
  33. Dreamora

    Dreamora

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    -1

    Mods please explicitely forbid any MMO thread in collaboration, allow it only in the payed section.

    Yes everyone has the right to dream but you do that in bed and for yourself, you don't waste board estate for it especially if you lack 200% of the relevant talent, dedication and experience to even create a small RPG, not even talking about a multiplayer RPG and even less talking about a persistent online RPG

    We all have the right to express our opinion if someone comes around making very bad jokes and MMO + no funding = extremely bad joke. These jokes are worse than Charlie Sheens so its best to finally get the topic buried and forbidden on collaboration as the hope many had that ignoring that trash or letting 2-3 clearly pointing out the problem on why it can not work out (just to have the user have the nerve to recreate the same trash thread again with just as unrealistic and mathematically impossible solutions) did not do the slightest bit to reduce the problem.
     
  34. Mr.T

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    This might take all the fun out of the collaboration section but here is an idea it is for what its worth.

    There is a add-on for vbulletin(the forum software this board uses as far as I am aware of). This add-on enables the person who starts a thread to disable other posters that he chooses from participating in that particular thread.

    I have seen this add-on being implemented in other boards run by the same software.
    For example

    arguewitheveryone.org
    http://www.arguewitheveryone.org/site-rules-announcements/59-new-ban-thread.html

    Its a politics board and a thinly populated one at that but as you can imagine boards like that are ripe for all kinds of nastiness as well as hypersensitive-ness. I never post in such forums but I lurk at several (because they are fun to read).

    And please, its just an idea not a demand or even a request.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2012
  35. taumel

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    But you have to confess that this thread alone provides great material for a Buñuel film.
     
  36. npsf3000

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    Very interesting perspective. Is it apparent that when I used that word I included my [past] self in that group?

    Looking at some dictionary definitions, it looks like I have underestimated the negative aspects of the term. Maybe I should have used 'hopefuls' instead.
     
  37. JRavey

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    If you want to make games for public consumption, you might as well get used to the criticism. If you can't defend your ideas or your plans without asking for somebody to be silenced, maybe the plans and ideas aren't that good. At the very least, defending them will help you refine them and cause you to think critically about your intentions (if you're at least a little mature).
     
  38. LordJulian

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    1% inspiration, 99% pespiration.

    I suppose that this proverb never nails in the head of newcomers, do they?

    @wccrawford

    I think cuddling them with sweet nothings isnt exactly productive at all, the least at this current situation of the regular stroll of a trollfest, least some newcomers would learn, lurk, and analyze before they recklessly post threads that aren't even worth our time.

    Suppose that's a good thing, ain't it?
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2012
  39. Mr.T

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    Hmm. I don't see the Powered by vbulletin message anywhere at all. Perhaps I was wrong after all.

    I could swear though that the Reply to Thread interface and many other features make it look a lot like vbulletin. Maybe that is why I was confused
     
  40. PrimeDerektive

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    Ugh, really? Wannabe is offensive, when used figuratively and not even directed at someone? You're really grasping for straws to validate your argument. Certainly you have something better to do than comb threads for "bullying" that isn't even directed at you (or anyone else, for that matter).

    Also, people who bully do it knowingly. Not accidentally based on the perceived offensiveness of certain words by hypersensitive people.
     
  41. Starsman Games

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    These days, you can call a wall flat and people that identify with walls will get offended.
     
  42. nomnomnomplant

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    +1 to Tharsman

    The collaboration forums are fine as it is. There is a sort of balance from what I have observed. Most of the time the thread will die without success :p
     
  43. Adam-Buckner

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    I'm a fan of "If you have nothing good to say, don't say it."

    I think threads should be allowed to die and sink to the bottom due to inactivity.

    I believe the issue with some perceived bullying is also the act of diverting or derailing a thread.

    I believe the complaints about this thread: http://forum.unity3d.com/threads/118002-The-Ultimate-Unity-MMO-Resource-thread!?p=789198 were that within a few posts, people were discussing the relevancy of the thread itself, which quickly took away from the OP's intent for the thread. There are 3 posts related to the thread after the opening post, and 12 arguing over whether the thread should exist, including one post from a moderator asking for peace. If the intent of the original thread is unviable, it should be left to die. No need to beat its corpse. Moreover, any chance that this particular thread could have achieved its original intent is now severely diminished.

    For moderation, it's hard to say "Don't comment on a thread that you think is silly or the concept or content unviable", as one should be able to do just that - discuss the viability of a thread, topic or concept. It was user interest, which I participated in, that lead to the separation of Commercial Work vs. Collaboration. However, that thread was started as a discussion thread to discuss a topic.

    As a user posting: I think it's a difficult issue when criticizing someone else's work. Are they starry eyed children? Idiots baiting trolls? It's hard to say. Either way, what's the point to even engaging them?

    If you have something good to say, say it.

    If someone asks for criticism or help, give it.

    If you have nothing good to say, don't say it.
     
  44. Ntero

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    I don't think Wannabe is offensive to most people, although it's still an insult, which is something that is frowned upon in a public forum. Insults are totally unnecessary to any relevant debate on this forum, and a valid reason for moderation, or more likely a warning.

    Edit: I generally feel that you should never moderate on perceived offensiveness. If you get offended, leave; You do not have some magical right to not be offended. But you should be moderating against insults, as name-calling is not in any way productive, or helpful to discussion, and moderating out insults keeps conversations going.

    That being said if you can't take criticism here, you might as well just give up, because the consumer is going to be much, much worse. Take your criticism and either tweak your idea, or ignore them, but your going to need a thicker skin if you want to work in a creative industry and the content of the collaboration section bothers you.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2012
  45. wccrawford

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    I wasn't apparently, no, and might have changed the tone a bit if it was. I was once a wannabe that started on an MMO. I learned a LOT from that project. It absolutely was worth the time I put into it. If anyone had managed to stop me from trying, I'd have learned nothing.

    Telling someone that it's unimaginably hard is probably good for them. It'll get them ready for a challenge. But these topics go so far beyond that that it's ridiculous. I've even seen people joke about trolling the MMO thread-of-the-week. It's absolutely not acceptable, and I think a hard line should be drawn before it gets worse.

    To others:

    There are ways for mods to control bullying that don't necessarily involve censorship. If things escalate, they may, but they don't have to start off that way. A simple rebuke is often enough to set people back on the right path. And those who continue to troll would need to be handled anyhow.

    The 'say nothing if you can't say anything nice' line is good, too, I think. There's no reason to be mean or cruel. In fact, I'd go so far as to say you aren't trying to be helpful if you're being mean or cruel while doing it. You're just bullying. And nobody likes a bully.
     
  46. rik338

    rik338

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    Make some sort of rule of it?
     
  47. Ntero

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    I do not agree with this point, particularly with regards to Collaboration (or most categories of this forum).

    "Your idea sounds uninteresting, and your team incapable of accomplishing the lofty goals you've set out" isn't a nice thing to say. That doesn't make it any less relevant, and important, because if they don't hear it, they'll never get it. Whenever somebody posts a bad idea, if it just gets ignored, they will never understand why no-one responds to them.

    That being said if you receive such criticisms, you, as someone working on a creative endeavor, need to step back and consider A)Is this just a difference of opinion or B)Does my idea require more time on the drawing board. For Ideas to blossom into full-fledged games they need constant feedback and critique, or else they are likely to come up short of what they could have been.
     
  48. Alric

    Alric

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    Which do you think is the worse plan?
    - Try to make an MMO
    - Don't try

    Because those, increasingly, are the two options proposed on these threads.
     
  49. zumwalt

    zumwalt

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    More to the point really, any MMO thread should simply be ignored. There are plenty of books you can buy at Barns Nobles, Borders, Microcenter, name your favorite book store here list.... that all contain professionally written books on MMO, what to do, how to do it, won't give you the code to accomplish it, but the MOD's probably avoid the threads simply because they pop up regardless of effort, only one question matters, can you create an MMO in Unity, and answer is a simple word, yes.

    And I do know of 1 person who created a MMO by himself and eventually made his own company, then with that company made an MMO engine which eventually was sold off to another company and is sitting very wealthy at the moment, although he never visited a single discussion forum, instead, he visited book stores and played with compilers.
     
  50. antenna-tree

    antenna-tree

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    I hoped this thread would simply fall off... just like I hope many Collaboration threads would. As many people have pointed out (Eric, Little Angel, and taumel) it's up to the community to refrain from replying to these threads and to just let them die. The problem comes from replying to these threads, whether "helpful" or "trolling"... either way they get bumped up back to the top for further "help" or "trolling". Let them fall off the front page. I try my best to delete unnecessary "BUMPs" in the Collaboration section and if that's the only action these threads get then they'll go away. But moderators alone can't fix this (refer to taumel's post). It's up to the community to do their part.
     
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