Moderators: Why lock threads that expose scams?

Every time someone outs a scammer on these forums, the thread gets quickly locked and buried. I can sort of understand the argument that false accusations can be made, but personally I would much rather see both sides present their evidence in all its ugly glory rather than have the moderators always try to keep the peace by locking down any accusations. It wouldn't be a big deal if the moderators also took it upon themselves to police for scams and ban scammers, but there seems to be a general rule that scams are ok but accusations against scammers are not ok. I don't think that makes a whole lot of sense... either moderators should be in charge of locking down both accusations and scammers, or they should do neither. To me, personally, knowing that someone is a scammer is THE most important thing that I would want to see in this forum, and if I had my way there would be a big sticky post at the top with a list of repeat offenders. If we can't have that, then at the very least it would be nice to let the forum readers themselves try to do some policing.

I also understand the awkwardness that this post presents in that it will most likely have to be locked, and I understand that moderators themselves don't always get to decide what the rules are, but I think it would be good for whoever decides these things to consider whether burying whistleblowers is really the best way to moderate.

 

I don't think this is the forum for whistleblowers. The last time I looked there were at least one whistleblowing site for various things regarding software and marketing scams. All that stuff just muddies the water. You could have had a disagreement with someone and be absolutely innocent, but that person could come here and damage your reputation and no matter how you repudiate it, no-one except yourself will know the truth, so your reputation is damaged just by the accusation. A lot of people would then not take a risk. Plus all this stuff is anecdotal anyway. There's a saying - What is the truth - something plausibly told and boldly maintained.

 

I don't mean pointing out random scams on the internet; I mean pointing out people who are using this forum or the asset store to scam. And I've never seen anyone on here accuse someone else of scamming without showing evidence, so it's not just anecdotal. Scamming people out of money is far more common than meta-scamming a non-scammer by accusing them of scamming simply for personal revenge, and like I said, I'd rather be able to look at the evidence on both sides and make my decision based on that. As for the philosophical meaninglessness of truth, well, I don't think that's ever worked as a defense for anyone accused of fraud or theft in court, so I'll err towards empiricism.

 

If someone is scamming, you could report the thread to the moderators with evidence of the scam. Then the moderators would have an opportunity to see if it passes whatever threshold of rules they have for shutting down a thread.

The "you're a scammer" threads I have seen shut down have generally degraded into shouting, name calling, and a little bit of hair pulling. I have also seen a few that seem to be nothing more than calling someone out for a fight. The thing is, if picking a fight is against forum rules, the moderators have to be fair and lock any thread picking a fight, whether the person actually posting feels they are wearing a white hat or a black one.

Having been a forum moderator in the past, I know that these kinds of conflicts can really be difficult to deal with. The safest bet is to judge everyone by the same forum rules so that you're being fair to all parties.

 

I've seen many degenerate into shouting and name calling because the person who has been exposed as a scammer results to shouting and name calling. That's certainly no reason to bury threads exposing scammers. You can't get away with crime out in the real world by just calling people names when you get caught; I would much rather know who is a scammer and be exposed to some rude words than have the moderators cover for scammers and let them continue to run scams because they are afraid that otherwise someone might use some foul language.

I do agree that it would be good to judge everyone by the same rules and try to be fair, but I don't think the rule should be "Scamming people is ok, posting that you were scammed is not ok". Personally I think it should be the other way around, but if not, then I at least think that people should not be able to scam OR warn other people that they got scammed. Of course, if they make it a rule to ban scammers, the moderators would actually have to investigate the scammers, and that's more work for them. I understand that, which is why I think the best idea would be to just let the community take care of it instead.

 

That topic had run it's course. Did you want them to both carry on shouting "no you!" ? It wasn't going anywhere and said what needed to be said. However in a dispute like this, the user should do a paypal resolution thing and see it through. It's bad luck but it just goes to show, be careful what you buy, that goes for everything in real life as well as online.

 

Scam or not is sometimes not this easy to separate. And false accusations are quickly done. Especially by angry customers. Which can even be something for a court then. False accusations are a criminal offense which can become very expensive. Insult and slander anyways. We talk about business here.

This board is no court though. So Unity better closes such threads immediately. Or they may become guilty too.

 

The fact that PayPal protects grifters by providing the buyer no protection on intangible assets hurts the most, no wonder their back every few months.

 

Perhaps you should stick to legit sources - like Mixamo or hire your own 3D modeller to do work for you?


For us, we use the Justice system. Get a lawyer and take it off-line. Very effective and gets your money back + damages.


Example:

 

For people in the same country as you

 

Thankfully their the minority, the publicity can’t be worth the peanuts gained.

 

Even when you want to hire someone, he/she might scam you. Which is what happened to me but mostly its because I was stupid and trusted him by giving him the money before. The thing is I wanted to report him at first not because I care about the money I wasted but instead to warn others about him. (I have all chats/emails saved + the money I sent him)

I had no idea who to tell or where to post.

So I think there should be some kind of system either by us the users or the moderators Just my opinion anyway.

 

That kind of defeats the purpose of the Asset Store though, don't you think?

Every time we buy something off the Asset Store, we are taking a risk. These are not "legit" sources like Mixamo, they are independent programmers/modelers/etc, and we have to trust the items they are selling are theirs to sell. Otherwise you may as well just delete the asset store altogether.

My big problem with Unity locking/deleting the "scam" threads is this:

I have some assets sold by the person in question who inspired this thread. Because I saw the accusation thread, I now know there is some question about the legality of those assets, and I won't be using them until and unless that ambiguity is resolved. I may be taking steps to retrieve the funds I sent to the person in question, depending on how it all falls out. But what if I hadn't seen those threads?

I would have those assets in my folder, and as far as I was aware, they are valid assets that I can use, because I have purchased a license to do so. If I had gone forward with my project, used those assets and sold my game, I open myself up to possible legal repercussions.

Now, I know it is not Unity's job to police every asset sold on this board. But I think a lot of people have purchased that asset in particular (and perhaps others in the past that have turned out to be questionable). The forums are a good place to let those people know they probably shouldn't use those assets. But if Unity locks them down (or deletes them), how are they going to find out?

 

The initial investment lost in these scams is (typically) a drop in the hat compared to this:

It's like buying a car that turned out to be stolen. You didn't know it was stolen. But now, you're not only out the money spent, you're serving 3-to-5 years with your cellmate "Mother," who likes to gargle toilet water and use you as his Teddy Bear at night.

And remember, all you were trying to do was make a video game.

As for deleting scam threads... this would be a literal obstruction of justice for ongoing investigations, which is why they don't do it.

As for locking scam threads... sometimes they don't have a choice. When a scammer is busted, they either vanish, or deflect. And a scammer's deflection can result in a lot of foul language, threats, name calling, and general unpleasantness that no one on this forum need be exposed to (especially the minors.)

The innocent, however, would be issuing apologies, explanations and refunds. And these threads would NOT be deleted, since the seller accused of foul play is making an effort to prove their innocence by pleasing their customers.

 

The real question is.. How to resolve the ambiguity. Ive seen some questionable materials on the Unity store but no one has ever said a word about it.And why doesn't anyone give this fella the benefit of the doubt and or give him some time to sort it out and provide an answer? All Ive seen on here was a basic mob mentality, guilty before innocent, the person or company in question has been around for ages... long before Mixamo, and or even Unity itself...What ive seen transpire here is tragic, but you get tragic results when you provoke someone to that point quickly. also no one has said a word about the person who posted the .c4d motions in the first place, why is it ok for him to make the c4d fies available and render animations and post them on you tube for profit, and just because one of this guys FBX motions looked similar to one the other guys C4D motions maker it a crime of high treason, punishable to the highest degree? I think not. I think this is just a simple misunderstanding that can be worked out. Just give it some time and the truth will be revealed.

 

Why lock threads that expose scams?

Because they turn into rage threads, deteriorate the forum quality of atmosphere and bring out the worst in everyone involved. No one that feels they have been wronged or cheated is patient enough to sort the matter out responsibly and fairly - especially on the internet.

There are offline ways to resolve matters and avoid all of the cons of the situation.

 

If it were only this simple, if your innocent how do you save face, admitting wrong doing does not make you innocent. The innocent also stand up to bully's who falsely accuse them of something wrong.

People like you have no idea of the consequence or damage you inflict not only monetarily to their way of life, but also to their personal well being., being falsely accused of something and having it dragged out in public has a lot of damaging psychological repercussions as well.

I suggest you be more clear, what is it exactly you want from this guy? From what Ive seen your just bloodthirsty for persecution and punishment, not justice.

 

Hi, Joe. Just post with your original account.

 

right?

 

Ill happily except a signed license by the seller claiming full ownership of the intellectual property sold and the seller will accept any legal action taken regarding the use of said product should it arise. If this can’t be supplied a refund should be issued.

 

I cant, That account has been banned for life. Happy now?

 

Ok, very nice and civil, a great suggestion with dignity and tact, Next Please...

 

Hopefully you realize that being banned means you're prohibited from returning.

 

Sure. I make no accusations or claims one way or the other. All I have to go on is Person A says one thing, and Person B says another. That is why I've taken a "wait and see" attitude. But in practical terms, what it amounts to is I cannot at this point use the assets which I paid for, which is annoying at best.

The one thing I will say, this person's behavior in those threads was appalling. No professional I know acts that way. Okay, I could excuse that, because after all he's being accused of something pretty terrible and it could affect his livelyhood. So fair enough. However, one statement he did make, which was something to the effect of "I never sold animations, I was only selling the avatars" (forgive my paraphrasing, I'm too lazy to look up the exact quote at the moment) was a HUGE red flag for me, because that was a complete lie. That makes me feel like something fishy is going on. But again, I'll give it time to play out and see what happens.

 

And for my behavior, I can and now will apologize.

I will have to now draw up and issue in writing the terms of use. Ive never had to do that before, but it seems quite essential for eveyones benefit.

Regarding the Avatars statement, it was in the original ad, that stated the Avatars may be resold with 0 restrictions.

It was not said that way in the ad about the motions, "The motions may not be resold like the avatars could be" Sorry again should have been more clear in my advertising."

 

Yes I realize that, but by allowing me back, it could be misconstrued as ambiguous.

 

You have always sold motions not avatars, your thread tittle had no mention of avatars, I should not have to be out of pocket because you advertised the product incorrectly.

I didn’t even download the avatars, your refusal of my refund is just bad form.

 

So If Issue refunds to you and the other folks who requested one, you will all be happy and make no other ill mention of this?

 

Joe, I need clarification on this.

I do not want to sell avatars or animations. Not directly anyway. If you are talking about directly selling stuff I bought from you, that doesn't really apply to me (I have no interest).

What I want is to use those avatars and/or animations in my game, which I will then sell.

Now, in my particular case, I don't care about the avatars (I'm going to have to custom build my avatars, as they have particular needs which I won't find from a 3rd party). What I purchased (in my mind) was the animations. Which I believe is what you sold me.

If you are telling me I cannot use the animations in a commercial game (for whatever reason), then yes, I am afraid I'm going to have to request a refund on that purchase.

 

refunds are issued. I wish this could have been more amicably resolved.

 

If you can’t provide a product with a license that enables me to freely use the animations in my projects without risk of legal repercussions I request a refund yes.

 

Im sorry I should have been more clear,

#1 yes its True I have never sold Avatars before.... However you can use and or resell the avatars in the Uni-Bones package in a game or directly out of a game with 0 restrictions.

#2 regarding the animations, You would have been able to use the animations in your game and or sell your game with the animations in it.(That is until this recent situation,)

The only way now to use the animations is wait until I write a new terms of use and legal disclaimer for yours and everyone else protection. and also show a video explaining how we make our motions to lend credibility and validity to the sale of such motions to be truly Royalty Free (Like Mixamo does)

These particular animations that you recently paid for (Uni-Bones are 2 in question right now for you to use currently, that's why I have issued refunds)

Thanks and Cheers

 

When the license is in order i will purchase again.

 

Thanks

 

Okay, thanks Joe.

Don't issue me a refund at this point (unless you already did). I am willing to wait a reasonable amount of time for the disclaimer to be available (I presume it would apply to prior purchases?), and that such disclaimer will again allow me to use the animations in the manner in which I intended to use them.

I want to use those animations in my game, and I still hope to be able to do so. Having to delete those assets would be a bit of a setback for me. However, I do need some assurance that I'm legally allowed to use them in my commercial game, ya know? I'm willing to work with you until this gets resolved.

You should have my email. Just let me know.

 

Ok Ron Thanks,

I wouldn't have unless you requested one.

I should have the license and disclaimer this week sometime.

Thanks for your patience regarding this matter.

Cheers

 

PayPal claims got back to me. While not a refund, it'll do. Just glad it's been resolved, and hope others in the same boat will also be reimbursed.

Joe,

Despite your attempts to demonize me, know that a refund was all I wanted in the first place. With a 16-year career in games, the accusation on your part that I would come here and randomly target you for harassment is utterly insulting. You even went so far as to accuse me of staging the videos! I still can't believe you did that

 

It is a refund that I approved.

Im sorry you feel that way, The feeling was mutual.