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MetaHuman figures- Usable in Unity?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by HonoraryBob, Feb 10, 2021.

  1. MadeFromPolygons

    MadeFromPolygons

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    Doubtful, Lurking was semi right considering UMA is nothing really to do with metahuman at all. One is underlying tech for changing bodies, the other is a literal character creator complete with rigs etc. How do they compare? They dont = spam or at least spam-like comment.

    Back on topic: Seeing as the same fidelity is achievable in Unity, the only thing this does that is really revolutionary is wrap up a really solid character generator in a web interface that runs very smoothly. If unity invested in something similar but actually made it free (instead of trying to wring money out of a dry cloth all the time) we could basically go "we have a metahuman too!" and that would go a long way to really show what HDRP can do, as a lot of people see metahuman and dont go "what a great character editor" they go "omg unreal has such good graphics, unity ded!".

    But I dont see that happening, at best they will buy something half baked and then "finish" it by destroying both its core features and tacking on a heavy price :)
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2021
  2. They have nothing to do with each other, so it doesn't make it not free if you want to make realistic characters.
    UMA wasn't relevant or comparable in this thread in the begin with. That's what I'm saying.
    When did it become mandatory to work or invest in things for free? I hope you and all others who expect Unity to give away the barn-door for free are publishing your games for free and only for free, since it is seemingly mandatory in your opinion.
    As you can imagine I have very many problems with Epic's tactics giving away the value of software work for imaginary market-share. It is an extremely bad tactic for everyone. Including for people who actually get the stuff for free. But sure, at first glance it seems magnificent, you get a bunch of stuff for free.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2021
  3. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Freely available tools allow additional talent to grow.

    For example, traditional pricing model for 3d software was full purchase. A person that cannot justify the purchase, won't learn the software, and a person who learned it via a "student license", but then stopping being a student might end up being unable to afford it.

    A freely available 3d package allows anyone to try their hand at modeling, and some of those people will grow into professionals.

    Basically, giving away free tools means breeding more talent that can use those tools. That talent can then be turned into customers through Royalties.
     
    drhousemd likes this.
  4. I know and I didn't question that. I asked when did it become mandatory and trashy/evil/whatever if it isn't the case.

    Mind you, we're talking about Unity, who basically kicked off the entire 'make stuff available for people' (edit: on game engine front). And now, the same people, who got access to the tools are talking trash about Unity because they choose to not to make available certain tools for free.

    My main problem is with the 'Unity is the evil bastard because don't give us all the stuff for free'.
     
  5. MadeFromPolygons

    MadeFromPolygons

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    I think you are reading too far into what I said or conflating it with things others have said :)

    I dont think unity are "evil", but I 100% think that many if not most of their aquisitions and the way they have handled them have either not yielded much at all, or have downright been a waste of time and money. On the flipside epics aquisitions are all going in for free and getting good usage due to ease of access to them.

    I just want some of the money being spent on aquiring all this stuff, to actually go to some use instead of being for the top 10% of customers - it feels like a complete step backwards to the "unity pro has these features" days. A lot of new things that would have been core before, are being spun out into paid add ons which completely goes against the original principle of what unity was.

    So yeah as you rightly say unity kickstarted the whole idea of giving developers an affordable way in and democratising development, and the competition is now hammering hard back due to unity no longer doing this so much. And people will naturally point that out, and over the internet thats obviously going to come across a little more over the top (both from the person saying it and the person interpreting what they have said by text).
     
    socialtrens likes this.
  6. ? Could you please name an example where Unity moved a feature into paid tier?
    That's the thing, this is a blatant lie. Most game-related engine feature Unity has, (AFAIK) are freely available. Yes, they are selling services, which aren't part of the engine and sometimes they choose to provide some services for free, sometimes they don't.
    But vast majority of their engine-development is available, I don't see the democratization of game development in crisis at all.

    But yeah. our mileage may vary and vastly different.
     
  7. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Where did someone say something like that?

    I think some people expressed disappointment that the competitor offers amazing free stuff, while unity doesn't.
    That's not the same as "unity is evil".
     
  8. It is virtually impossible to dive back into the forums and find all the quotes, but the common theme is just like above.

    Unity is 'wringing money out of a dry cloth' all the time. Which I interpret that they don't care about users, they only care about the money. Which I find extremely untrue and extremely mislead. Especially if we take into account what they did, what they are doing and how they are doing it.

    I don't want to defend Unity, a lot of times they deserve what they get and sometimes it is absolutely right to hold their feet to the fire. But also, I don't think that they are doing that bad, people just tend to forget that Unity's userbase is extremely diverse and the forum dwellers are just a very miniscule part of the whole.

    Edit (ps): sorry that I heavily contributed to the off-topic.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2021
  9. Mauri

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    I don't think that's even necessarily it. Imho, Unity just invests into the wrong stuff while Epic does the exact opposite (Megascans & MetaHuman). What can Unity offer in that regard?
     
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  10. neoshaman

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    After looking around, seems like it will export to unity later, it's locked because it's not finished yet. Body shape is below what's offered by other asset of the same type, even the free one.

    Seems to use a laplacian blending for the shape, which is why the quality is beyond stuff like iclone, makehuman, mblab and daz which are more stylistic in nature, but also because smooth target blend easier. They also probably have better scan with anthropologic data.

    People get confused about UMA, the mesh and the rig isn't the asset, it's just an example sample. You can probably export

    Also epic as a wet cash cow pinata called fortnite, unity is in deficit and sweat away mean to get profitable which mean they get too conservative where epic can afford to take risk. Unity is in a bad place. Godot is becoming the free options, unreal become the high end option, both are closing in unity on their own way.

    Also unityi s detached from the need of the game market, they didn't understand why people were mad at them for fontainebleue (which use unreleased custom tools all over the place, and tweak to the closed source code) and for the heretic (glorified data viewer of works done outside the engine, and their answer was you can reuse the costly eye shader, because that's a problem they think game hadn't solve?).

    In fact the heretic vs metahuman is precisely the main problem see with unity vs unreal, metahuman isn't finished but it's already useful to a game dev, even finished unity tool don't answer fundamental issue dev face, they only save face with some force positivity statement, everything is great, y u angry this high tech, high skill part is amazing.

    Unity should make game and try to be market leader there, that will help them.
     
  11. BIGTIMEMASTER

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    i tried metahuman. I honestly don't see where it fits into a production pipeline. It's basically like a character generator you would have in an RPG game. The fidelity is high but presumably you would use something like this for background characters - it doesn't have enough flexibility to make hero characters unless generic realistic characters with a very rigid scope of body types is acceptable.

    I guess it will be like daz where you basically have to work from artist made models that exist already, with some flexibility to change them a bit - but that sort of thing is best when there is a massive pool of content which there isn't right now.

    Making characters with this tool would be slower than other options, as mentioned. If you have a budget for high end graphics I don't see why you would rely on a generator like this. So I just don't see exactly who this serves.
     
  12. Ryiah

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    Linus Tech Tips briefly evaluated the system and my impression watching the video is that it's designed to create good results regardless of the skills of the user allowing you to have your skilled users work on important content.

     
    Last edited: May 10, 2021
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  13. shredingskin

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    Man it reminds me how much sucks what adobe did to mixamo.
    It used to be almost on par with CC2, and the free options were more varied than the content you get with base CC3 (and if you want to buy a bunch of clothes it'll easily surpass the cost of the base software).
    Epic does seem to invest a lot in really cool gamedev features, and makes them free for UE which is also nice.
    It'll probably be a paid service for Unity like megascans, let's hope the pricing isn't "AAA".
    3D characters are too expensive, and each one has their different problems/costs.
     
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  14. Not_Sure

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    Meta humans is proof that the market is moving exactly where I expected it to.

    I expect the next step will be to create something that’s an animal creator that uses complex systems like fur, hair, skin, bones, muscles, and eyes to create any animal (real or fictitious) with the same program.

    I also suspect that the trend of Unity producing more complete to market games will continue.

    These demo reels sucker in the “I’m going to make Doom Eternal as an MMO all by myself” crowd and creates a wasteland of barely started, never completed, titles.
     
  15. neoshaman

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    You are right for AAA production, obviously, but for small and medium shop that's more than enough, it allow to pull above their weight, I mean it's not the modelling, it's the quality blendshape + rigging as something that is expensive to build and get, and not be awkward. You can totally make plausible realistic hero character on these parameters with this, as long it's not hyper real stylistic like in devil may cry or god of war.

    Quality blenshape is the one thing I got stopped hard trying to do or even learn.

    Also it create decent result with toy facial capture with webcam and phone camera, enough for low budget narrative game or even low budget digital movie. A whole class of product will sprung up of existence due to this assets, they literally created a market out of fine air.

    Also don't underestimate the thirst for accessible and decent looking dark skin characters (if only the hair editor was on par). This part is a massive relief.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2021
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  16. BIGTIMEMASTER

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    I thought about that @neoshaman but if you got characters that look like that i think it will be a hard thing to make the rest of the game on par if you are on a budget. I guess if its a talking game that takes place in one level only - sure.

    I was just pretty stoked to try it and then after abotu ten minutes I was like, "i cant see any use for this."
     
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  17. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    There's also a risk of getting "Daz Effect". Seeing a daz model in a game often creates impression that "oh, this game is going to be poorly done".
     
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  18. neoshaman

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    Really depends, most people fail at composition, but this works with offering like quixel megascan, photogrammetry workflow, and procedural generation of architecture, landmass and vegetal. It's more "in the right hand" problem, noob gonna noob anyway, if you have poor composition and art direction style you can't be save.

    But I have actually seen also the opposite from small and medium studio, and even AAA studio, good environement and character looking out of place with the realism of that. I'm more concerned by optimization issue with small shop overusing high quality character.

    IMHO daz model look too distinct in style, this is way more generic due to realism of the anthropomorphic range. But that's an opinion
     
  19. sqallpl

    sqallpl

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    Looks like I'm doubling my post from Mixamo thread but it's mostly related to MetaHuman.

    As for the availability for non UE users. If they want they could just allow non UE users to spend their Megascans points for each custom metahuman.

    I mean that metahuman is exported/send from the MetaHuman Creator to Megascans account and after that you can acquire it for X points in the Bridge for further exports. Same as it works now with other assets.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2021
  20. chgeorgiadis

    chgeorgiadis

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    Is this photo from Unity? Did you try to import all these to Unity? (SkinGen HDRP HairStudio) And what Unity version?
     
  21. Passeridae

    Passeridae

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    Yes, it's a screenshot captured in Unity. Don't remember the exact version. The one that works with 10.x HDRP package.
     
  22. HonoraryBob

    HonoraryBob

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    After trying MetaHuman via their website and looking through their forum as well as videos of people using it, it quickly became apparent that right now you can only slightly modify the existing characters and also blend existing characters, but there's no way to fully sculpt features (only slightly shift a few points) nor any way to upload a reference image to blend its features with the stock characters. So this brings me back to wondering how difficult it would be to use Unity to get a similar degree of photorealism but with characters from Fuse or scans etc? It's mostly a matter of having a good skin shader and suitably detailed normal maps for the skin surface.
     
  23. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Yup. It is fairly limited and sculpting is very non-intuitive. It resembles MakeHuman situation where pulling one thing affects a thousand of different other things. There are also no alternative clothing sets and no way to upload your own.

    It would be a pain in the butt, due to the way how it woudl work.
    Basically you'll need to parametrize all model in such way that they would ALL map to something common. For example to a unified topology.
    In short it is like making a MakeHuman from scratch.

    Can be done if someone dumps a lot of money on the problem, though.
     
  24. HonoraryBob

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    I didn't mean making an entire system, but rather making skin, hair, etc on individual models to look photorealistic like MetaHuman achieves. I would think the most difficult thing would be the skin shader since skin has a complex form of subsurface scattering. Animating the face would also be difficult.
     
  25. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    Typo.

    FaceGen. Not MakeHuman. Facegen was used in Oblivion and bunch of other games.

    I believe the most difficult part would be making it all blend and morph into each other and not making skin shader.
    Unity had skin shaders before in their demos.
     
  26. kristoof

    kristoof

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    Me: Mom, can we get metahuman in unity?
    Mom: No, we have metahuman in unity at home.
    Metahuman in unity at home:
    upload_2021-6-22_12-52-58.png
     
  27. Max_Bol

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    Just a note about Character Creator 3 (CC3), it's currently on sale and there's also a coupon code working with any bundle. My guess is that they are currently trying to hook up UE users/devs before they get hooked by MetaH.

    Either check the shop and use the code 2021LSAC (in the cart menu) which, until July 31 2021, will drop the price of ANY bundle that includes CC3 by half its full price. For example, the complete bundle that which is normally at $1,770 is on sale at $1,190, but using the code above drop it further at $885. If you're not using the code, most bundle are around 40% off.

    I just purchased CC3 + Hair&Beard Bundle with the iClone7 (which currently come with a load of voices sounds as a bonus when purchased out of the bundle, yet still at 40% off). With the coupon above, it came to $397.50 (which is around $512 CAD in Canada where I live.)

    I know it's far from being free, but considering the alternatives and how many hundred of hours I'll save for one of my upcoming project, I think (for me at least) it worth its price. The cool thing is that I can use it for any engine and also for producing my PR content which, by the way, is not allowed with MetaH unless 100% produced from within UE.

    = EDIT =
    There's a few things I got to point out about CC3, as an alternative to MetaH.
    First, installing the whole thing is a mix of ease and pain-in-the-butt. You can see they are currently attempting to put the whole installation shenanigan into a single easy-to-use software (called Reallusion HUB) which greatly help install most of the primary software you purchase. But quite a few plugins requires you to download a separate installer (and you can't run 2 of those at once).
    Second, CC3 + iClone 7 comes with 2 main method to import into Unity.
    A) You can directly import from CC3 (and iClone7) to Unity, but it requires a certain plugin to be installed in your Unity project. I haven't tried it yet. (some Details on this link here: https://www.reallusion.com/character-creator/unity-auto-setup.html )
    B) You can export the character into Blender and, then, export it to Unity like usual.

    Also, if someone ask me why I purchased the Hairs & Beard bundle, let's just say that I'm quite impressed by how it works and how much easy it is to drag & drop & pull the parts around. Also, the fact that I can put beards on women is a plus, considering that one of my upcoming project has fantasy female dwarves. ;)
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2021
  28. sxa

    sxa

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    Well, they've been showing stuff for iClone driving MetaHuman recently, so they're definitely targetting that pipeline; they already had a live mocap 'bridge' for UE, they've added an MH bridge, covering mocap, facial animation, lipsyncing etc.
     
  29. Marcurion

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    I wanted to bring to your attention that Unity recently released their LookDev demo, including a new human HDRP avatar called Fia: https://blog.unity.com/technology/try-the-new-lookdev-studio-prototype-today
    A significant improvement IMHO over the recent Heretic Demo is the inclusion of somewhat useable hair shading.

    It seems like an alpha test shader with dithering is used, which then is smoothed out by the Temporal Antialiasing. Apart from some artifacts, the shader comes with all maps a state-of-the-art hair shader would use, except Strand ID maybe.

    Fia1.jpg Fia2.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2021
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  30. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    (IMO) This sort of thing is not very interesting unless there are morphs and customization involved.

    Although it is kinda amusing to see how over the course of years many transparency related tasks switched to dithered alphatesting.
     
  31. Marcurion

    Marcurion

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    chuckyluv869, HonoraryBob and Rewaken like this.
  32. KRGraphics

    KRGraphics

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    The hair on my Bounty Hunter character uses a similar approach, including a strand ID map to allow variance in the hair colour. I wish Unity also supported Marschner shading for hair, like in Pixar's Render man.
     
  33. Qleenie

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    HDRP supports Marschner model, albeit no real documentation available how to use it correctly. All hopes are on their hair package.
     
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  34. KRGraphics

    KRGraphics

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    True. I actually created my hair shader using Amplify Shader Editor and though it doesn't support StackLit authoring yet, I can get some very good looking hair
     
  35. techniquea2z

    techniquea2z

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    It's worth sharing this:


    God know where it falls on Unity's timeline but CC4 + plugins will get us close enough in the interim.
     
  36. Murgilod

    Murgilod

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    It's not worth sharing this because, like most things Unity buys, it's going to take forever to actualize, cost money, and likely suffer from loads of implementation issues. The reason I think this is because this basically describes every Unity acquisition. The reason I bring up cost is because it's very important when you consider the entry barrier to MetaHuman is literally $0.
     
  37. UPDATE (May, 2023):
    Apparently Reallusion has changed their license and you no longer need to obtain the mass distribution license. You just need to purchase an Extended License in order to be able to distribute assets in openly traded videogames.
    More info here, especially in the FAQ section.

    === The below statement is obsolete for the time being ===

    CC4 is not feasible for any decent game development. It has serious license issues. If you want to make a game with Reallusion software and/or content, you need to register your project with them and ask for specific mass distribution license, which they can refuse.
    I would not start to rely on that crap.
    More info here.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 9, 2023
  38. KRGraphics

    KRGraphics

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    Have you guys seen this? OMG
     
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  39. techniquea2z

    techniquea2z

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    This is a really great point, really.

    Anyone with eyes and see Unreal is really killing it with MetaHuman, Nanite/Lumen.

    With the Ziva Dynamics acquisition and this upcoming Indiegogo, we're still relying on asset publishers and snail paced acquisition integration while Unreal's tools are available today.

    Not to start any holy engine wars, but as a longtime Unity user who wants to accomplish that sort of AAA photorealistic style, yet isn't willing to throw away years of exp and production with Unity -- it's really frustrating.

    In the end, an engine is only as good as it's users -- but the tools definitely matter.


    I didn't see this... This is pretty counterproductive of them to require this, honestly.

    No wonder it isn't a more widespread tool amongst Unity users.

    Definitely planned to shell out quite a bit on their store -- so I'll be reaching out to them for details before pulling the trigger.

    Yes! I've actually been studying these tools a lot in preparation for my next project, I've seen a CC4 mesh converted to MetaHuman:

    https://twitter.com/scionti_design/status/1534991133415292977



    MetaHumans have reallyyyy good rigs too, their blendshapes for wrinkles and muscle movement are really on point.

    It's really a shame, if I don't find myself able to use CC4 or get licensed, then it's off to Unreal tbh.

    I'll have to get over my distaste for visual scripting and pick up C++, no doubt. Playmaker kinda soured the whole idea to me, honestly.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2022
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  40. neginfinity

    neginfinity

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    I have, but I absolutely do not feel "OMG" about it.

    They focus on faces and not clothes, and feels like they're targeting something that does not overlap with my interests much.

    Unreal also relies on inheritance based design, and there's discrepancy between C++ and Blueprint API. Those things are on dealbreaker level, pretty much.

    Also Physical editor is an abomination.
     
  41. PanthenEye

    PanthenEye

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    Playmaker is in no way similar to Blueprints or even other visual scripting systems for Unity. Everything's an FSM concept is unique to Playmaker alone.
     
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  42. neoshaman

    neoshaman

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    To be frank, they are focusing on the hardest part, knowing full well there is very good solutions for everything else (Marvelous designer, heck that blender plugin replicate that result too). I mean their hair is a wee bit lacking too, it's not like there isn't entire tool chain dedicated to it. BUT facial animation still need heavy rigging by skill artist and full capture workflow to just start looking decent, and they make that a LOT easier, which is where the OMG comes from. In like not OMG this is ground breaking, but like OMG this will save so much time, money and hassle from a lower skill ground.
     
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  43. razzraziel

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    Zwrap says hi from 2018


    Adding more and more sliders won't help unless you won't fully automate the scan-metahuman process.
     
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  44. blueivy

    blueivy

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    hopefully ziva dynamics works for built in pipeline as well when whatever plans they have is released for unity. because metahuman is quickly becoming a killer app for unreal on the level of nanite/lumen.
     
  45. KRGraphics

    KRGraphics

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    I almost bought ZWrap for ZBrush, and now going to have to stop I can speed up blendshape creation for 17 characters
     
  46. KRGraphics

    KRGraphics

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    I LOVE Lumen! It's damn NEAR real time too
     
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  47. techniquea2z

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    Just sharing my response from Reallusion:

    Looks like it's just a formality to know which games use their models -- not really any barrier of entry.

    Also worth sharing this thread -- I've pretty happy with how they look in HDRP: https://forum.reallusion.com/488356/Unity-Auto-Setup
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2022
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  48. That's bullshit. Legally, there is no such thing as "formality". You buy their software and their content, you write to them that you wish to use them in your famous, upcoming whatever game, they say 'no' and you're done. You paid for something you can't use.
    Just because now they say they wouldn't say no, it doesn't mean they won't. And it is enough for them to not to answer and you are in trouble. They don't even have to refuse.

    They do not need to document anything, they know if you bought something or not. They want to do this.
     
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  49. Ryiah

    Ryiah

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    Joy. I bought the software sometime ago during one of their sales. Good to know that not only should I not waste my time learning it but that I should recommend anyone curious stay far away from it.

    I just looked up and read the EULA. The required information doesn't just stop at the name. They require info on the project itself. I guarantee you even without having done it myself that they will refuse to provide the license for any game they don't want to be associated with. You don't have a requirement like this otherwise.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2022
  50. Yepp, it's utter garbage. And I was too, similarly blind to this before I bought CC3 and of course, after the purchase I found this clause. Not the best ~$300 spent ever and obviously no refund.
    And yes, they act as if they want to have a say in what kind of content they want to allow you to distribute. Which suggest they are planning to say no, otherwise they would just ask for a project ID of sort.
     
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