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Discussion in 'External Tools' started by xxxDjdogxxx, Jul 13, 2011.
Deleted by poster.
Of course Maya is better but it really depends on what you are going to make
Last but not least, Cheetah3D deserves a mention. I personally prefer it by far over blender, yet it only costs 99 dollars. Thats personal preference though. Cheetah has robust rendering and baking tools as well, it can keep up with everyone else and mantains an excellent price point.
So there are other options.
I'm not sure of your particular problem but in Blender 2.4x you can "rotate" an edge with ctrl-e then choosing the command from the popup menu. You can also convert quads to tris and back again. Its not the fastest way but its better than having to recreate your model. Blender also has retopology tools for a long time now.
I know. I`m a Blender user. That`s why i know what is possible with it and what not
I talk about things like reconnecting edgeloops, and the fact that you cannot convince Blender to really do that because it cannot handle N-Gons. You will be trapped sooner or later.
Yes, there are workarounds. And sometimes rotating the edge helps. But not always. As told, i had such cases where i would`ve had no other choice than to redo the mesh. Retopology is surely no valid workaround for a case where you just need to add a edge in the right direction. The faster solution was to reload it in my modeler of choice, and simply add the needed edge there, by two mouse clicks.
The point is, with Blender you basically subdivide faces when you do polygon modeling. That`s all you can do. There is no way to add a single vertice or a single edge somewhere. There are no tools for that. The existing tools all divide your selected face(s) in one or another way. Of course you can also model that way. But modeling in Blender is much more complicated and cumbersome than in an app that can handle N-Gons.
In my favourite modeler i can add a vertice where ever i want, i can add a edge where ever i want, and i can add whole faces where ever i want. And what`s more important, i can remove edges, vertices and whole faces without any dramatic changing at the rest of the mesh. I don`t have to care that my app destroys what i want to achieve by adding a extra edge where it absolutely disturbs, or that i need to add a whole loop around the mesh first when i want to add a edge at just one face, just to remove 99% of it manually as the next step. I can totally focus at the meshflow, at the geometry. That`s faster, costs less thinking, and is more convenient.
BMesh, the new core to handle the mesh data, is long planned to change that. The Blender guys knows about this issue, and that their polygon modeling tools are outdated. And i really look forward to it. But BMesh means a dramatic change in the Blender core code and tools, nearly every modeling tool will be covered by that. That`s one of the reasons why it takes so long to finish it. It is promised since years. And still not there. And i simply doubt that it will arrive with 2.6 as promised. It was promised for 2.5 before too. Maybe we will even still miss it in 2.7 or 3. BMesh is the Duke of Blender ...
I don't understand what you mean. I can easily add a vertex by subdividing an edge, I have no problem with that. I can add a vertex anywhere by ctrl-left-clicking there. I can make new edges by shift-k.
I have no problem with subdividing, you can't put an edge to a model and not have it connect to adjacent faces.
That`s what i mean. I don`t need to subdivide something, then pull the vertice to its position, then cleanup the mesh to get rid of or to reconnect the by Blender created edges, when Blender even lets me. Here i just need one click. The Vertex gets created where i want it. At an existing edge, or somewhere in the space. Same for an edge. I don`t need a face for that really, even when in most cases the created edge of course starts at an existing edge or vertice.
That`s the difference between Blender and a app that can handle N-Gons i guess. In my app i could when i would want. I could create a whole mesh out of just vertices to have a point cloud, or just disconnected single edges. It just doesn`t make much sense in most cases. In Blender you simply can`t, even when you want or need it.
As told, you can also work with the Blender tools. But it is in my whole experience more cumbersome. There is always the battle with the N-Gon limit at one point. For example when you need to change existing geometry, when you want to reconnect an edgeloop so that the meshflow points into another direction. Because when you delete an edge then you automatically create a N-Gon. Which gets triangulated immediately. Happy battling to convince Blender to accept the geometry that you want.
Maya beats the tar out of Blender, it's literally silly to argue this point.
The only reason Blender is even on the table is because it is completely sufficient for a small game project - for free. Free is a powerful word with inde developers, much of the same reason that people are drawn to Unity.
Maya on the other hand is so powerful that I highly doubt that anyone posting in this thread has used it to its full capacity. But - it costs lots of cheddar.
You simply need to weigh your options and find out what you need vs what you want. Perhaps you can start your project with free tools and progress into buying stronger applications to finish things up when you reach a solid developmental point? Do you intend to render any animated scenes? Find the differences and decide on whats best for you and your project at this time.
Maya is no sculpt modeler. That`s a job for ZBrush or maybe Sculptris. So there is no real comparison possible. Let`s stay at something that really exists in both tools. Polygon modeling is easier and faster because there is no N-Gon Limit. It has the better bones system and animation tools. It has the better material editor and the better renderer, whichi is important for texture baking for example. And important for companies: you have official support.
I'm a Blender - Bender, and Maya was quite confusing for me, and I have been modelling in blender for almost 3 or so years now, so I am going to say Blender
a) only some of you have picked this up, but, It's free!! It does nearly everything maya does, (and sometimes better) and its also a game engine, for FREE
b) I think its a lot more simple,, but thats my opinion.
c) its portable (I dunno if Maya is portable)
Maya is better at Animation and rendering, Blender is better at Modelling, and the obvious, being a game engine! (since maya isnt one)
If blender was a couple thousand pound or dollars, then maya would be better, but it's not, therefore blender.
(This is opinion based by the way)
Companies investing millions of dollars are all clearly very stupid - in fact too stupid to make money. So stupid that they all choose maya instead of blender. Someone has to tell them where they are going wrong, surely.
You think blender is better at maya at modelling? I must have tried the wrong versions of maya and blender.
Its not about what can't be done. It's about what can be done well instead of jumping through hoops or battling a gui that clearly has no place in modern computing (blender). Whenever I use blender I feel like I've been thrown back to the 90s.
Clearly, if blender was all that, every company worth it's salt in game development would use it. They don't. Indies do but they don't really qualify as being a high level company.
Correct me if i'm wrong but there's no way to use custom shaders in the blender viewport to make it emulate your game engine is there? With maya, you can have a feature parity between the game engine and the modelling environment.
What about 2D? rendering is very important after all. You want those 2D sprites looking the best they can be, right? thats where blender falls flat on it's face and suffers multiple nerd nosebleeds and maya giggles and dances in the light. You don't have to like it, but maya wins.
However, on any kind of budget, blender just makes maya look silly, with blender winning with ease.
Instead of guessing, why not look at maya properly on this link to see how many timesavers they build into maya. The reason for this design is many years of feedback and competition with other packages: http://usa.autodesk.com/maya/features/#channels_3D Modeling
Cinema 4d and blender.
I tried to use 3ds Max 09 and 2012, and motionbuilder 2012, both kept crashing on me when trying to do characters. I've never used maya, but since they're Autodesk, I'm staying away. Even if it as was naivity, I still did better with the two listed above. It seems like you had to have been using 3ds from day one to use 3ds max 09.
and cinema4d has jiggle physics...soak that in.
I'm not an animator/modeller, btw.
Blender also does this with its GLSL engine, which by the way, is awesome, + now they have sorted GUI in recent updates and seek to improve the graphics capability in the forthcoming updates, I have no idea for modelling in maya, but I love blender for modelling, the only downside is the hotkeys, and even then there are only like 4-6 important ones,
Well for me the deal breaker is blender's inability to work at ngon/poly level. In maya or max i can just slice and dice through models without ever worrying about the topology and it will redo the topology without me thinking about it, with the minimum possible triangles. Thats plain good math. When blender does this, I'll take another look.
I'm not a stupid person, but I will use the best tool for the job. Unity is the best tool for the job and if it wasn't then I wouldn't use it.
Someone asked which is better, Maya or Blender so they got honest answers. Maya is better but Blender is free and at that price simply can't be beat <shrug>.
I'm probably wrong but in video games, models or all either triangles or quads, that's why I'm used to them, I don't like having vertices with irregularly shaped polygons where the edges are hidden. I get the feeling n-gons merely hide the edges that are really there.
If you prefer Maya, well, good for you.
Redbeer, with all respect, did you ever use anything else besides Blender for modeling? And i don`t mean making cubes. I did, i can compare, and i have compared. I am always in search for the better toolset. And my whole experience tells me that Blender has the weaker polygon modeling tools compared to nearly any full featured 3D package out there like Maya or modeler software like Silo. Which is caused by the missing N-Gon support. That`s a fact. Even Blender users knows about the weak modeling tools, and i know more than one that uses Wings 3D for the modeling part.
You are correct with your observation that game engines usually works with tris, and nowadays even with quads. But you mix apples with bananas here. This has nothing to do with why N-Gons are needed in your modeler, and it is also no sign that N-Gons are not needed in your modeler. To have N-Gons support is not about the final result. My result is always triangulated or quadrified. It`s about the creation process, about the tools. And what can be done with it.
I already mentioned a very clear example what this means. With N-Gon support you can remove a edge without any changing at the remaining geometry. The created N-Gon stays unchanged, and you can go on. Without N-Gon support you are in trouble in the moment you remove the edge. The created N-Gon will be triangulated. Which gives you a 50/50 chance that the by the engine introduced edges points in the wrong direction, or even disturbs completely. As told, i was once even completely trapped, and i would`ve had to redo the mesh.
When this is no clear example, then i don`t know what is. The problem can`t be described clearer. And everybody who has a bit of a clue about polygon modeling usually understands the problem very quick.
Heh. I AM a Blender user, i use it for sculpting, normalmap creation, ambient occlusion baking, and any other stuff where Blender is the better tool compared to what i have here. I even submit bug reports, i like and support Blender. I just stay away from its modeling tools because my personal experience has teached me that they are much weaker than my current modeler.
I am a very pragmatic person. I use what does the job better. And by the way, i`m not a Maya user. I cannot afford it.
I just used Maya and I say, get Maya, hands down. You can get 2012 free with a student download. I think they're out of keys for the moment. If you don't have a student email, get one!!!!
I used it for about an hour and rigged a character, without a tutorial and anything. I had a model made with MakeHuman freeware. MakeHuman is great for animating characters in minutes for free.
Maya 2012 comes with Human IK, which if setup correctly, can automatically create IK/FK constraints for you characters. It's very easy to use, and will probably take a week to get good at. It also works well with MotionBuilder which is an animation tool, which is also free with student account.
@Redbeer When I first toyed with the mac I found Silo an excellent alternative to 3ds max on the Mac. It has similar modeling workflow and was quite nice to use though I'm really a windows person and mostly use 3ds max and photoshop.
Yes, Silo is a really nice modeler. And well worth the bucks. A shame that those guys decided to leave development of Silo alone, and went on with making a game.
Hmm. This list reads like experience. And you still don`t get the point. Wow
It`s not about if i like it or not. As told, i`m a very pragmatic person. It`s about if and how i can get my job done. I`m not interested if somebody thinks this or that is cool, i give nothing about propaganda, and rarely watch videos. I`ve learned modeling back in the years when there was nearly no tutorial available. For me nothing is ever written in stone. I only trust my own experience. And when it comes to polygon modeling, then Blender is simply the weaker choice to nearly everything i know and have used in the past. The N-Gon limit IS a limit. This is personal discovered experience.
You can of course also model with Blender, and live with the N-Gon limit and the by that caused workarounds. I´ve never denied that. But this doesn`t make Blender to the best modeling app ever. It stays a weak polygon modeling solution. And it will stay that way until BMesh finally arrives. Which is unfortunately still months or years away.
Actually i think blender/maya is the best modelling program no doubt but so long the modeller is comfortable with the tools in his pipeline all is well. And i thought Max is better than Maya for game modelling. Correct me if i am wrong. And previously silos is also not a bad modelling choice. As is modo. Lots of modelling programs are out there for people to try and use. If you say worst, i will say google sketchup is the worst i used. And plz don't quote me because that is my opinion and so no flaming plz.
Well Max and Maya practically are similar for game modeling. They both offer similar pipeline, subtools so there isnt much difference, the biggest difference between them is user interface and appearance of model in application. For example i cant stand Maya interface, its not human, its not computer its just alien interface. Max has more robust and better looking thats why i preffer it.
Well. Like i said. There's a tool for everyone and so arguing which is better ain't gonna do anything. Every tool have it's strength.
That`s not the discussion we have. We talk about polygon modeling here, not sculpting, not nurbs modeling or any other modeling method that you want to bring again into discussion here. I have already mentioned that i use Blender for sculpting and some other tasks, and i like and enjoy it. Blender does a great job here.
It`s not the discussion if Blender is black or white neither. I have already agreed. I`m totally with you that Blender has also strong sides. That`s where i use it too. The discussion is about polygon modeling. And that`s a weak side of Blender.
What is it that makes you think that i am too specific, unflexible, and not willing to change my approach just because i do not agree with you? I still use what`s faster and what fits my needs, and not what other people recommend. I always build my own opinion. I prefer to think for myself, thanks.
The only thing i really care is: what do i want to achieve. And then i have a look at the available toolsets and approaches, and decide which route to go. When Blender would be the better app for polygon modeling, then i would use it. That easy.
Still, it is not. It is slower, less comfortable, and limited. That`s why i use something else for that part. And this has nothing to do with being unflexible or nailed to a specific workflow. I`m very open for every new method. You never stop learning in 3d anyways.
I say use what does the job better. You say use what does the job better, as long as it is Blender. And i will never agree with that. This makes me really scratch my head. Because somebody like you with a this big experience should know it better.
Anyways. I think we will never reach a consensus here, no matter how long we go on with discussion. But that`s okay. You have your opinion, i have mine.
That said, happy blendering
For artists sometimes one modelling application workflow suits them better than others. Just like I prefer oil paints over acrylics. You can get almost the exact same result in either but the handling and workflow is quite different. Both have pros and cons that will be different depending on the artist and what they feel comfortable with. In the end so much is subjective and when your creating things it can be very personal.
I know some people that simply love milkshape and are lost with anything more sophisticated where I'd simply quit game dev if I was forced to use it. The best thing you can do is try the tools your interested in and see which one works for you personally.
If you want to work in the industry for a large studio your probably better with an industry standard tool because developers aren't going to create custom plugins just for you and almost all art pipelines support either max or maya or both. When someone is looking to hire an artist your chances drop significantly if you can't just pick up and use an industry standard tool thats already integrated in their pipeline. Most developers have no time for training and probably won't care how good you are in another tool when they hired you to bulk up the art team in the last 6 months of their game going gold and need someone that can get up to speed in 2-3 days without pulling other staff away from time critical work.
That's why if your plan to work in the commercial industry someday and have the opportunity to learn one of the industry leading tools, then you should take it. If your a hobbyist, have a limited budget or only plan to ever use unity and don't see yourself as a commercial developer working for someone else later then maybe blender is a better match.
These days most of my work is contract work where I work for a core 2-5 companies a year all using different realtime 3d rendering solutions. I only use Unity as a hobby and for my paid work Max or Maya are required for me to work because those are the only tools my employers will support in their pipeline so ultimately I don't have much choice.
I didn't want to pull this card out, but those blender fans are just hyping blender because its classic human nature to defend what you have got and what you have access to.
Redbeer, I think you deliver a great discussion in a mature manner but you're defending something without having proper used maya, of this I can tell by what you've posted. Blender should not need defense: if it is good it can speak for itself. Do you not agree?
I have both, and also, xxxDjdogxxx doesnt have blender as he is unsure how to use it, does that not mean we are both the same? but I agree, it can speak for itself and does speak for itself, with a loud, and clear voice
It's paying the Autodesk tax that is indefensible. I think it's people paying that huge premium who demonstrate a kind of compulsive need to justify it - if you paid all that money, it MUST be better somehow, right? Do you really want to admit that giant pile of money you've paid to Autodesk over the years was just a waste? Of course not. The only rationale behind a pro using that stuff is because the big companies use it in their pipelines, which is fine if your aspiration is to get jammed sideways into an EA pipeline. But there are better things in this world to which we may aspire, as Redbeer helpfully reminds us.
It's not expensive if it pays your bills, the average game artist salary which here in North California can be anything from $5000 - $7500 a month depending on which city you work in.
Let me guess, you own unity free.
I pay good money for 3D software and I've bought unity pro and ios pro, not because it must be better somehow, right? but because it IS better. By miles.
Blender isn't bad though. It's just if you look at them side by side, maya is better. Thats the whole point of this thread, and what the OP asked before it all got derailed.
Everyone's gone really defensive over blender, and this thread has run it's course.
Well fact is with maya you'll have better tools to actually, if you chose put out a full rendered set of cut scenes instead.
So yeah, maya's full features are kind of needed. Or are you saying indie games should suck?
this was in 2009 and now it is 2011 o.o (random)
Redbeer, what makes you think that you are the only one here in this thread that has the right to judge? I don`t get it, really.