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Lumberyard: Amazon's CryEngine-based engine with free source code

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Frpmta, Feb 9, 2016.

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  1. I_Am_DreReid

    I_Am_DreReid

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    Thanks for the quick review, saved me precious time lol
     
  2. tiggus

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    I think this looks more attractive than Stingray to be honest. Also Lua is a pretty good scripting language, if you've never used it the latest third edition book is probably the best resource.

    I would expect it to take a couple years to get equivalent to Unity/Unreal in docs/user interface but if there's one thing Amazon is good at is planning for the long haul, at that point it will be hard to beat their backend service integration.
     
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  3. BrUnO-XaVIeR

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    Well, I see a lot of statements about how it's not a proven product and has no community...
    I see things this way:

    Amazon have been hiring top industry veterans for the last 5 years or so and they are making massive improvements to their engine because they actually use it to build AAA games themselves: this is the worse missing characteristic of Unity's, they make no games at all thus is hard for them to understand what developers need and toolset will always have important stuff missing/buggy.
    In few years this CryEngine branch may be much better than CryTek's original one if those vets are truly interested on making a very friendly and easy to use development environment for their potential users.

    Speaking of potential users, Amazon have paid already for acquisition of a gigantic community with ~2 million developers/creators and 100+ million potential users curious about game development, and it is called Twitch.TV.
    This whole free game engine of theirs is mainly to follow the trend: audiences are becoming developers; their focus will be providing a very ease of use of their new software, when possible, for those making any kind of online multiplayer game while whirlpooling them from TwitchTv to pay for AWS services. And it will work, the tools just have to be easy enough to use and have dumbed down documentation.
    In no time this Lumberyard thing, if things done right, may become the one tool to go for those interested on making one more 'Twitch Plays Pokemon' copy-cat.


    Btw, I personally feel paralyzed when having too many free cakes in front of me and ultimately end up choosing none of them while thinking of having them all.
     
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  4. yoonitee

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    Good point. I was looking in the Unity folder about what files take up so much memory.
    I found that it is mostly in the PlaybackEngines folder which is about 5GB.
    For example the playback engines for IOS take about 2.3GB and Windows Metro takes about 1.6GB.
    So if you didn't want these platforms you could save about 5GB space and have a quicker download.
    The webplayer engine takes hardly anything for example.

    Not really sure what's in the file libiPhone-lib-i386.a for example that it takes 0.3GB? Maybe someone can explain. I'm guessing it has something to do with Microsofts bloated dot Net archetecture??

    And what about this one: UnityPlayer_Symbols.pdb. That's almost 100Mb just of debugging information! In fact I found about 2GB worth of pdb files. (Not sure if they were downloaded or get created at runtime - but if so, it means I'm spending time downloading unnecessary files - I for one don't know what pdb files are for....can I delete them?).


    I would bet both Unity/Unreal/CryEngine engines could all be made to fit in under 500Mb if they tried. I guess its not a priority when download speeds are so quick now. Just a case of bundle everything together and put it in a massive download. In fact, take out the IOS files and the PDB files and you're more or less there!
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2016
  5. Deleted User

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    Well from what I hear, they're sorting out the .FBX pipeline.. So that and a new UI already = 10 Billion times better than the original CE. It can only get better from here..
     
  6. zenGarden

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    How this will help their engine ? The forums have no organisation and lot of questions have no answers, this reminds me of Paradox team that has very little presence on the forums and skip essential users questions. This doesn't sound so good.
     
  7. Deleted User

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    I've already had two of my questions answered and had a chat with them, cool people..
     
  8. GarBenjamin

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    Didn't they just launch everything yesterday or at least this week? I doubt UE or Unity community was anything like it is now back 1 to 2 days after they launched. Give it some time.
     
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  9. zenGarden

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    I agree, but things stayed like that about Stingray or long time ago with Paradox. Anyway , this is just something i noticed.
     
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  10. SteveJ

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    This is one of the dumbest things I've read in a while...
     
  11. angrypenguin

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    [Edit: Whoops, didn't realise there were more pages...]
    I don't think it's so much that they always "win" as that they don't linger on their "non-wins". They try stuff out. If it gains traction they do it more. If it doesn't they re-invest the resources elsewhere and don't linger.

    An example of a "not win" might be their Fire product line. My perception could be coloured because I'm in Australia, but even though they're really good products at really competitive prices they just don't seem to have caught on in a big way. (I guess their boon is also their curse, in that they're Android devices that raise the quality bar by not giving access to the Google Play store.)
     
  12. pkid

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    And exactly which part of what I said is not accurate? Please, enlighten me.
     
  13. Deleted User

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    I checked out Lumberyard today with one of the engine coders sat at side of me, it's buggy we spotted a fair few issues.

    On top of that were just sat there thinking why?

    As in, why would we risk moving to a difficult to use engine with less features in it than Unreal? Yeah it's cool for openworld stuff and I still love CE (plus variations) dearly, but would I want to use it with an actual team selling actual games?

    It's apparently going to support mobile too, which unless it's seriously streamlined to be as mind numbingly simple as Unity is.. I'm not sure how that's going to take off.

    Don't get me wrong, I think it's awesome I honestly do. I wish it would of been around two years ago when we started this venture. We'd of probably had a game released by now.. But with the market being as it is????
     
  14. lightassassin

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    I've been playing with Cryengine on the side for awhile just to make pretty art things and having to not bake lightmaps is so much easier for level design iteration (the new SVOGI is so easy, it just works and is pretty). The default shaders work nicely from water, to trees or anything really just drop nodes and go or make your own. I have been using Cryblend which is a setup for using Blender instead of Max or Maya. So I'm going to try adapt that tonight to see if I can get it to play with Lumberyard.

    The scripting/coding is a bit... eh for CE. Though that mostly comes from the whole black box style that Crytek has. The support is pretty much non-existent which is a huge negative but I guess you can't expect too much from a $9.90 pm payment and no royalties on PC.

    So to Lumberyard it appears they want to avoid the pitfalls, they have improved some of the workflow (launchers etc...) and even include WWise LTX which only recently did Crytek add an SDL audio component which was required for the Linux support they added. I suspect Lumberyard will have issues with OSX support just like Crytek and even Unity have had with an outdated OpenGL for high end shaders and techniques. I'm personally not concerned with iOS/Andriod support but seeing Linux and OSX sooner rather than later would be nice.

    Maya / Max has been covered, so you know all that, but as I mentioned earlier there is a possibility of getting Cryblend to work for blender allowing imports that way. Also the UI has been replaced, it's a bit barebones at the moment but it works and doesn't require a outdated flash version and a scaleform license.

    Coding is very similar to CE but at least I can check the source and understand the underlying implementation or even change it if need be (although that requires a check from Amazon before releasing binaries which those changes).

    The documentation is lacking at the moment, but that applies to any engine that is new including UE4 which still lacks C++ documentation for some things. Hopefully this is a major priority, and will improve as their community builds.

    In relation to licensing people are getting quite confused in as to what they can and can't do, hopefully they will clear this up with time. But, the harder to find information that I think people would like to know (site can get confusing, links inside of links) there is a paid support using the AWS Premium Support (https://aws.amazon.com/premiumsupport/pricing/) which is competitively priced and even has a low developer level for only $49 a month while the higher ends scale depending on your usage of the AWS system.

    With that said https://aws.amazon.com/gamelift/pricing/ is where you can get an idea of what the AWS costs will be for their game examples (FPS, Moba etc...) using Gamelift services. Truthfully if you are planning on using Cloud services using AWS isn't a huge negative and if my understanding on the licensing is correct, you could use the AWS servers are proxy servers similar to that of Valves Steam ones to deal with NAT punchthrough etc.. so really you're only paying the bandwidth (you don't need gamelift for that, unless you want it to auto-scale). Even then, you're allowed to use the Steam proxy servers on PC anyway, and both Sony and MS have agreements in place for their consoles to use their backends for such things.

    Single player game? Enjoy your free engine :)

    Be interesting to watch, going to throw together a small test game using it to see how different the flow is from Cry engine, but as it's still the first beta I expect it won't diverge too far until later but hopefully for the better.

    Sorry post got a lot longer than I intended :)
     
  15. zenGarden

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    It's CryEngine

    I made some tests and i am not sure you can make some Skyrim game that have some good complexity using only Flowgraphs and XML files.

    The strong point of the engine is to make simple games like some good little ones made with Unity or Unreal 4, this engine will do the job with great features and tools out of the box.
    -FlowGraph is easy
    I started making some flowgraph tests like pick up object, raycast and some more , it's only nodes you connect from objects on your scene, this is even more simple and clear than playmaker LOL.
    Some guy made some Shoot them up using flowgraphs only.


    -BSP is awesome
    It is more advanced than Probuilder that i own with more modeling functionnalities, it would make happy any Hammer users for example.
    - New UI in the beginnings , no more outdated Flash tool.
    So any beginner should be able to start small projects from scratch.

    The lightening and shaders are really gorgeous and there is zero baking.


    The drawback is the workflow and the engine is stuck to Maya and Max, but there is some plugin made for Blender from a skilled user and if we are lucky Amazon will change that.


    You get gorgeous graphics and real time GI , good effects and many tools out of the box : advanced terrain and ocean system, time of the day, IA and covers , road and river tools etc ....
    There is no royalties, and this is a really faster engine than UE4. I think that some people will be able to make a successfull PC games using it ( perhaps i'll have some game idea for it also).
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2016
  16. angrypenguin

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    I doubt that they're trying to attract existing projects to switch engines, which is a very different proposal to starting new projects with whatever engine is most suitable at the time.

    I'm well into a project that, if I were to start it now, I'd very much look at Lumberyard as a genuine contender.
     
  17. Deleted User

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    Even if you're starting a new project, you have Unity and Unreal and most are familiar with them...

    Plus they are easier to use. Not that it matters to me, I used CE for a long time ages back..

    Still not sure I'd go for it though.
     
  18. stormwiz

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  19. PhilSA

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    I truly don't think they can do a complete Cryengine makeover, though. You can't just change an engine like that. It'd take 15 years. It would be shorter to just start from scratch. I'm pretty much certain Lumberyard will remain an archaic mess forever.

    Also the large majority of these jobs seem to be for game development, not engine development. I'm looking forward to the twitch-integrated games Amazon will be making over the next few years, but not looking forward to using their CryEngine-With-An-AWS-Plugin
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2016
  20. angrypenguin

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    Do they really need to do a complete makeover, though?
     
  21. Yukichu

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    I think we've been missing the most important question: what color skin is the editor?
     
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  22. Deleted User

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    Umm, why can't they? They only support Windows / Console, we used to rip engines apart and re-factor them all the time.

    Also who says they need to? I glanced over some of the source, it's obvious the CryTek engineers knew what they were doing. It's a pretty solid core..
     
  23. neginfinity

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    They can. It may take few years, not 15. That's what programmers usually do by the way - changing old codebases with years of history.

    Making a new engine from scratch would take a lot of time, though.
     
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  24. stormwiz

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    The Engine is still in beta so its all speculation which direction they are going.
    I think they are not going down the same path as Stingray which is collecting dust.
    A good game engine company need to tend to the community and keep and open dialog with plenty of tutorials, docs, and latest tech features. We have been spoiled rotten with the light of Unreal, Unity and expect no less then the very best.
    The UI should be revamp like FL Studio 12 or Maya for example. The scripting should also be redesign and easier to interact with.
     
  25. leegod

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    Does it support C# and Visual Studio?
     
  26. gameDevi

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    is it all open source? are we able to see how they've implemented their famous GI system?
    if yes then I guess the big secret is out.. if yes then I bet Aras is studying it this very second :p
     
  27. Not_Sure

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    This is true, but with source code being so widely available with Unity, Unreal, and now CryEngine I would be shocked if everyone and their brother doesn't just copy and paste together a new engine.

    They'll all flop, I'm sure, but I'd be surprised if that doesn't happen.

    And what will happen is the market for engines is going to bottom out and become damn near free (which has already, pretty much happened).

    What needs to change is these companies need to diversify their revenue streams (which is happening also).

    Here's what I think they should look into:

    1) Asset stores need to really kick it up a notch. Art assets are a complete trainwreck on them. They need to just straight up open studios that have salary employees that do nothing but create standardized assets. Imagine being able to get almost everything you need and they all have the same style and are optimized to work with one another.

    2) A social network / virtual academy / publisher. Holy crap, why is this not a thing? You go to the site. Walk through tutorials. Do challenges. Build up your profile, like leveling up. And then eventually get to participate in group projects. When you successfully complete helping a handful of projects, you're allowed to propose a project of your own. People can elect what projects they participate in. Once a game is complete the company takes it over and promotes it, localizes it, edits it, monetizes it, and publishes it. The group then gets something like 50% of the revenue, divided among the team in a predetermined, and standardized, manner.

    3) More cloud and team development tools. Which they're doing.

    4) Stop banking so hard on VR. There's a very good chance this tech is going to tank.
     
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  28. PhilSA

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    ... are you saying we have access to Unity source code?

    I have actually never really understood why there are art assets on the asset store, or who buys them. Art is such a specific part of your game! If you pick up assets here and there from different sources, your game's gonna end up looking like Second Life! You don't want that!

    Couldn't agree more, and this is coming from a VR dev. VR is EXTREMELY limited in terms of game design. There is interesting stuff to make with it, but it's never going to replace normal games, so they can't just abandon that aspect
     
  29. Ryiah

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    Placeholders. Additionally not every asset is going to be recognized.
     
  30. PhilSA

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    you would pay for placeholders?
     
  31. Ryiah

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    Yes and I have done so in the past.
     
  32. neginfinity

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    Sounds, music, animation, background objects, characters, textures, materials, etc.

    People make games with rpg maker you know, specific or not.

    While you'll most likely want custom art for the main character, it is unreasonable to expect everybody to model every single object in the game level, down to every pebble.
     
  33. zenGarden

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    You'll have to use the engine if you want this real time GI :p

    You look like very closed to other software or 3D engines or techs, VR is supported in Alien Isolation and Sony will use it with it's own helmet.

    Lot of people make mobile games using characters and props like town and dungeon kits from the Store for example.

    It's not a mess, it's CryEngine , but it is usable depending on your game scope and what features you need. For many game genres it will work without needing source code modifications and you can make a game in no time with Flowgraph. But many people like you apparently don't need another 3D engine and that's good, let the Lumberyards users make their games.

    Why would you make a complete overall when the engine is fast and has real time GI and beautifull graphics ?
    It only needs some workflow changes, some improvments, and perhaps bring high level easy to use C++Classes.

    UE4 is available from long time, did you see their tech in Unity like Ray Traced Shadow Fields ? Particles shadows ? Spline tool ? LPV ? something as fast as Lightmass for static lightening baking ? or all coming production tools ?
    I guess no :rolleyes:.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2016
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  34. darkhog

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    Yes, because cubes/capsules/spheres can't do.
     
  35. Ryiah

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    Only up to a point.
     
  36. Martin_H

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    The thought of all the generic cookie-cutter games that this would "inspire" gives me a headache. Nothing wrong with using placeholders or using a few unimportant environment assets from the assetstore, but the thought of pushing hard to have the least original art content possible in a game really does not appeal to me. The whole assetstore thing already is kind of a trap for inexperienced people, that makes it look like you can replace every actual skill you need to make a game with $$ instead of hiring skilled professionals for $$$$$. If you let a studio produce the assets, the frankensteined-together games certainly will look less jarringly inconsistent, but I strongly believe they will still have the "core qualities" of games like the infamous "Slaughtering Grounds". The barrier to entry needs to be raised, not lowered. Just my 2 cents.

    Is it? I've heard bad things about the implementation. Camera placement being off, naseau inducing, GUIs hard to use etc.. I originally wanted to hold off on playing that game till I own a VR Headset, but I recently caved in after hearing so many bad things about the VR implementation.
     
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  37. neginfinity

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    You know, I don't think so.

    Large number of everyday objects do not change significantly, and do not really NEED to be designed from scratch, because they're pretty much faceless props. If you make them once, they can be freely reused, they just need consistent quality about them. Or do you really want people to waste their time recreating brick wall texture from scratch for every game they make?

    If people spot an asset or if a game is bad, it is developer's fault. He/she couldn't figure out how to sue the tools properly.
     
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  38. Archania

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    Dark theme. Standard like most things...
     
  39. elbows

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    I have a lit volumetric fog fetish so I'll have to check this out, seeing as CryEngine made excellent progress on this side of things in the last year.
     
  40. runevision

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    That would be illegal.

    Unreal source code is available but not open source.
    Unity source code is available for a price, but not open source.
    Lumberyard source code is available but not open source.

    The fact that the source code is available mean you can look and it and change it if you're using the respective engine for your game and following their license terms.

    The fact that the source code is not open source means that you can't just take the code and do whatever you want with it. It is still copyrighted. The way you can use it is defined in their license terms.

    If the code was open source, anyone could take it, compile it, and sell the product themselves. Ok, they'd need to replace some logos and maybe other art files first, since that can be licensed separately even for open source software. But still. A company whose product is open source can't base their business on selling their software because people can just get it for free (no royalties, no lock-in to specific tech or servers, no restrictions at all). This is why commercial game engines are not open source, even if they have the source code available.
     
  41. AcidArrow

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    Also, "copy and paste together a new engine" is an oversimplification. Even if the engines were actually open source, it's not like you would just "copy the user friendliness files from Unity, the post process effects from unreal and the GI from Lumberyard" and have a working... anything.
     
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  42. neginfinity

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    Dual-licensing.

    Free version is GPL, paid one grants premium support and non-gpl source code access.
    That one is used by CGAL.
    Alternative is when free version is LGPL, paid one grants extra features and non-LGPL code access. That one is used by Qt.

    I don't think it will be super-profitable, but some projects do that and stay afloat.

    ID software also has a habit of releasing all their engine under GPL license, although they obviously do that AFTER they released their game.
     
  43. Ryiah

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    Fixed that for you. ;)
     
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  44. runevision

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    That's true. And that is possible because even open source software doesn't (always) allow you to just do anything you want - something I forgot to mention. Licenses like GPL can't be used in commercial products - or rather, they can but the game has to have it's own source code available as GPL too if I understand correctly. LGPL is a bit less restrictive but in practice often as unusable.

    Open source software that you truly can do anything you want with need to be licensed under fully permissive licenses such as the MIT license. In that case you can do what you want with the source, but dual licensing also doesn't work anymore, because it doesn't offer anything (useful) you can't do anyway.

    (I'm not an expert in these things. Correct me if I'm wrong.)
     
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  45. Tomnnn

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    Yes. Amazon has the resources, they should just build their own game engine.
     
  46. Deleted User

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    @runevision

    From memory that seems about right? Thing is they don't need to allow "open source" as long as it's tiered for modification with game release as binary. That's all you really need..

    @Tomnnn

    Well I kind of said that, but still it would take them much longer. It's the whole just because you have more engineers on it, doesn't mean you'll get things done quicker.
     
  47. GarBenjamin

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    You know... I've been thinking the same thing for a long time now. I guess it comes down to one main thing:

    Everybody wants something different.

    There are people who think Unity is fantastic just as it is. It clicks for them. These are the people releasing games with Unity.

    There are people who think UE is fantastic just as it is. It clicks for them These are the people making games with UE.

    Same for CE, Paradox and all of the others. Obviously the guy(s) making Paradox feel that it is easier and better than Unity And for them it probably is.

    I mean I complety get what you are saying. I am in the same situation in that I wish I could find something that clicks for me as well as Unity has for many of the people here.

    And it could be this is where a person needs to go back to the old way of rolling your own framework/game engine. Much like Paradox, Ogre and all of the countless other projects out there. No one engine or framework will work best or at least "click" for all people.
     
  48. neginfinity

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    Well, it is possible to use separate license for the game content. IIRC Warsow did that (or tried to do that - years ago).
    So you'll get GPL freely swappable engine, and proprietary content. As long as game content does not LINK with the engine, it can be done, because GPL does not apply itself to the data being processed. With GPLv2 you could lock people out of some service with encryption key, GPLv3 requires you to provide that (IIRC). However, in that case software ceases to be a product, and becomes a platform for the product.

    While it IS possible to sell GPL'ed code, the first one to buy it will be able to re-release it for free, so profit from those kinds of sales will be close to zero. Apparently Stallman's idea of freedom was to make sure that nobody ever gets rich selling software. Only services, tech support and merchandise.

    True, that's why a lot of opensource engines and frameworks moved to mit/zlib licenses.

    There's nothing to correct, because you have the right idea.
     
  49. Deleted User

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    Well the real point is, why not combine the strengths of all of them? Like Unreal is weak in mobile and ease of use compared to Unity, CE pretty much does everything but thinks it's funny to be extremely complex / restrictive in how you do things and Unity doesn't have half the stuff the other two has.

    Unity is a bit of an anomaly though, because it supports so many platforms and has a massive asset store picking up the slack in a lot of places. It kind of hobbles by, relying on the community to make it what it has become..

    Main platforms out there is PC / Console / Mobile, all Amazon really have to do is those three things well. CE already contains most of the toolset's, all they really need to focus on is simplifiying.

    Does everyone want something different? Why are so many people using Unity? It's because it's easy to use, hardly anyone used CE in its previous iteration. Unreal are pushing BP's to try and counteract that, as well as many "safety" nets in C++ also..
     
  50. GarBenjamin

    GarBenjamin

    Joined:
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    I said everyone as in figuratively. :) Well I think a lot of people drawn to Unity are people who have never made a game ever before in their life. People who never did any programming at all before getting Unity. Sure there are some veterans using it but I think there is very little if any doubt the vast majority of folks who love Unity are the people who for the first time ever are empowered to create with it and perhaps even complete games with it.

    But that is not all people. There are people using irhlect (bad spelling I know been a while), Ogre and a mass of other things out there. Perhaps hundreds of tiny communities gathered around all of these random engines and frameworks. And a lot of them seem to be folks who have a lot of experience.

    I get the feeling this Lumberyard is not necessarily targeting newbies. Reading through the docs and such they seem to be emphasizing profressional. So I think it is likely this will find its own spot in the market perhaps as a choice in between Unity and UE or maybe even a "next step" after UE. But I don't see it as catering to the same market as Unity which is mainly focused as a gateway for completely zero experience people to get into game dev. Unity has established itself as that newbie gateway.
     
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